quote:

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Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
How would you respond?

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quote:

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prophesying to envision people for their lives

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
prophesying to envision people for their lives
If this is an actual quote from the "prophets'" material, I think we can all tell which way this is going.

What the hell does 'prophesying to envision people for their lives' even mean?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

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prophesying to envision people for their lives

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What the hell does 'prophesying to envision people for their lives' even mean?

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quote:

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Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
My friends are planning to go but they are very nervous, not sure what to expect.
They have asked for my comments and prayers....I am happy to pray but it is a long time since I have been in such an environment and I'm at a loss as to know what to say.

How would you respond?

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quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I'd say "RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!"

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I'd say "RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!"

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I think this gets it about right. Look at the Old Testament tradition. Can you imagine Elijah attending an event like this? Real prophets are trouble: they go where they're not wanted, and kick ass. False prophets are trouble: they go where they are wanted, and lead people into darkness.

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quote:

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Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
My friends are planning to go but they are very nervous, not sure what to expect.

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quote:

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
the NT description of prophets is that they are to 'equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church'

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Yes. However, it says precious little about them holding special meetings which people are goaded/guilted into attending because of the prospect of a "special prophecy for them" and/or the threat of "missing out on what God has in store for them". It also says a whole bundle about false prophets and deception.

I've experienced plenty of false prophecy and very occasionally, what I believe to be the real thing, and I can tell you that the latter didn't happen in an environment like this.

Also, what mousethief and Martin said.

[ 21. June 2013, 22:02: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I am no a prophet nor the son of a prophet, but I think I can predict the outcome of this one. It'll be pants.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I'd also ask South Coast Kevin - hello again - how we are supposed to use the scriptures to weigh and evaluate these apparent prophecies?

People often say that this is what you are supposed to do but I've yet to hear anyone give a clear instruction on how this should be done.

Obviously, if someone prophecies something that is clearly against the grain of scripture - such as having it away with other people's spouses - then it's evidently way off beam.

But that's not how these things work, is it?

Generally speaking, these 'words' and prophecies are so vague and open to all manner of interpretations that it's difficult to actually apply any explicitly scriptural yardstick.

For the most part all they are are platitudes dressed up in scriptural sounding language.

I would submit that 9 times out of 10 we don't even need to go to our Bibles to cite chapter and verse or 'weigh' these things up because, quite frankly, most of them are bollocks.

I was waiting for a Chinese takeaway the other day and on a poster on the wall read the various predictions and so on against the Year of the Dog, Year of the Rat and what-have-you. I looked up my own birth-date and that of my wife's and the corresponding analysis/predictions could easily have been made to fit our particular circumstances had I been so inclined.

In what way is this spiritual fortune-telling any different?

Just because it's happening in a Christian context doesn't validate it. I don't see any scriptural warrant whatsoever for holding special meetings where some self-appointed prophet gives people 'words' and confirmation/encouragement etc.

I'm surprised at you even cutting this guy any slack.
 

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Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Will the prophet be washing the feet of the poor? Visiting the sick? The imprisoned? Widows and orphans in their affliction?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
the NT description of prophets is that they are to 'equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church'

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Yes. However, it says precious little about them holding special meetings which people are goaded/guilted into attending because of the prospect of a "special prophecy for them" and/or the threat of "missing out on what God has in store for them".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd also ask South Coast Kevin - hello again - how we are supposed to use the scriptures to weigh and evaluate these apparent prophecies?

...Obviously, if someone prophecies something that is clearly against the grain of scripture - such as having it away with other people's spouses - then it's evidently way off beam.

But that's not how these things work, is it?

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Evening Mr G, and welcome back. I agree that many prophecies can't really be weighed up against the Bible, but that was just one of the tests I put forward. It won't help one make a judgement on every prophecy given; maybe it won't even help with the majority.

I'm a big fan of praying over things like prophetic messages with a group of friends who know you well - they'll have a sense of what you're all about as a person and (hopefully) they'll be cool with sounding a note of caution if they think the prophecy or one's own interpretation is somewhat dubious.
 

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Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :
 
Absolutely do not go. Diviners get their powers from the devil. The Scriptures absolutrly forbid divination and give stern warnings against false prophets.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
I don't know whether or not this prophet is the real deal--but even someone with intuition, a prophetic gift, "word of knowledge/wisdom", what have you, can be immature, nasty, and plain misuse their ability.

So best to be careful:

--Tell them to make sure not to get separated. I once went, with friends, to a gathering at a strange-in-both-senses church. It was scary and crazy and cultish. We got separated, and that may have been by design. It took some doing to get back together and re-establish our sense of reality.

--Will they have to depend on someone else for transportation? That can get dicey if things go badly.

--Are they being pressured to go? If so, they're better off not going.

--Have they specifically been wanting life-direction advice? Do they feel any inward pull to go? Not due to pressure, or guilt at avoiding the Lord's will for them.

--Do they have any inner alarms going off?

--If they do go, they should feel free to leave *at any time*. They should also test whatever happens and is said against whatever they know to be good, and wise, and sensible. (Including the Bible; but it's easy to get twisted around about what it says.)
 

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Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
[QUOTE]Seeing as I believe the gift of prophecy is active among Christians today (as also are the 'gifts' of charlatanism, cold reading, manipulation etc...),...

I'd urge them to take on board whatever prophecies are given at the meeting, and weigh them up against the Bible, other words they might have received previously, their own sense of calling and so on.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Indifferently:
Absolutely do not go. Diviners get their powers from the devil. The Scriptures absolutrly forbid divination and give stern warnings against false prophets.

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quote:

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Well, indeed. But maybe these people are in a situation where their main Christian community - the people they meet with regularly - aren't remotely into prophecy. If that's the case, I'd understand their attending an event like the one described in the thread starter.

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In my subjective experience, a church "not being remotely into prophecy" does not get in the way of a member receiving a genuine word from God in the slightest. The same applies to healing.

Just because these people go round using the words "prophecy" or "healing" all the time in no way increases the actual incidence thereof.

Remember what Jesus said about people rushing round in the last days saying "here he is" or "there he is"? It's a bit like that. Also, the bit in Matthew 11 where he talks about the dangers of seeking to encounter God with a specific aim in mind ("what did you go out to see...?" "we played the flute for you, and you did not dance...").

As posted here before, my view is that the actual presence of the Holy Spirit at work in any event or location is in inverse proportion to how much this presence is claimed for the event or location.
 

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Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :
 
Thank you, Shipmates
I'm really interested to see that the responses to my OP so far are such a mixture of sound practical advice for my friends and a wider discussion of the substance/ role of "prophecy" today.
I found some of the personal anecdotes (Belle Ringer and others) particularly helpful.
I agree with Eutychus: my husband has a theory which he calls the titles opposite syndrome....based on his experience as a teenager when he worshipped at a church called "****United free church" his comment being one out of four can't be bad!perhaps when we aspire to call ourselves something we will always be challenged
My friends do believe in the gift of prophecy being in use today but also have reservations about the lunatic fringe and are in quite a vulnerable state so my prayer is that the friends who have invited them to this event act with the all the wisdom of your suggestions up thread.
My personal experience of what is termed prophecy is very mixed: some cringe worthy and scary moments but also a few profound and precious times of sensing God's voice.

PS Welcome back Gamaliel, you went ashore as I came on board so I'm glad you're back.
 

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Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 
Belle Ringer, many thanks for sharing some your experiences with prophecy, both good ones and bad. Really helpful, I thought.

Golden Key - sound advice, IMO. Please, everyone, don't get the impression that I'm gung-ho and uncritical about prophecy. To the contrary, I think it's vital to use your critical faculties and test any message given to you (especially if it's explicitly labelled 'prophecy', as the label can be applied in an effort to manipulate).

quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
Just because these people go round using the words "prophecy" or "healing" all the time in no way increases the actual incidence thereof.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Well, indeed. But maybe these people are in a situation where their main Christian community - the people they meet with regularly - aren't remotely into prophecy. If that's the case, I'd understand their attending an event like the one described in the thread starter.

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In my subjective experience, a church "not being remotely into prophecy" does not get in the way of a member receiving a genuine word from God in the slightest. The same applies to healing.

Just because these people go round using the words "prophecy" or "healing" all the time in no way increases the actual incidence thereof.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I've been (rarely) to gatherings where a stranger told me the words I had been privately praying - an unusual collection of words, recited back to me perfectly - and assurance from God about the situation. Very helpful.

In my personal limited experience, true words from God don't tell you anything startling. Like when a prophet I had never met (and she couldn't know about me because I impulsively stopped in at the meeting in not my own town) described the unusual feature of my house that I have turned into a hidden prayer corner my own friends don't know about, then she described (specifically but without violating my privacy in front of the audience) the question I had been asking God for well over a year, and then she gave me the same answer I was "hearing" from God but not accepting. (My not accepting was why I kept asking.) Hearing the answer this way, I couldn't keep wondering "am really hearing from God or my own twisted mind"!

I suspect new, unexpected statements from God are extremely rare. If she had said "God wants you to go to Africa and work with Pygmies" (when God has never given me any hint of such an idea), no. If God wants you to make a major change, there are lots of hints and circumstances pushing your attention that way, never just a "word" from a "prophet."

If she had said "God wants you to give me money" - no, because her own self-interest would interfere with her ability to hear clearly.

One woman at a recent Episcopalian charismatic conference told me God wanted me to give up the work I mentioned to her. I knew she was wrong because God has been pressuring me to do that work and I've been dragging my feet! I went to the conference director, calmly told him what happened, he quietly gently gave the woman a different task for the rest of the conference.

Note that she reacted to what I had told her, confusing her opinion with God's. That's the opposite of telling me specific unusual wording of my private silent prayer to God the prophet has no way of knowing except from God.

Those who speak what they think is God can get confused even when sincere; we're all human. So you test it, don't just take it. But when it's real, it's a very helpful specific personal assurance about specific personal question or need.

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Prophecy is God's word spoken through the lips of those who serve him. It affirms calling.

Although some are given the 'gift' of prophecy, it cannot be assumed that God will give words at a specific time or place. This smacks of human control rather than Divine control. Grace cannot be manipulated. I would either steer clear of the event in the op, or go to observe, giving me greater awareness of what is said and done by some in the name of God.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Why should their denomination help them with their interest with this particular understanding of prophecy, SvitlanaV2?

I would posit that those churches/denominations that have a tradition of spiritual direction, for instance, would be amply well equipped to provide a framework for these people to discern how they believe God to be calling or directing them without the need for them to go off to some odd-ball event with a prophetic label.

Equally, if they were in a conservative evangelical set-up then they might possibly find what they are looking for in the regular Bible studies and so on.

If they were more sacramentally inclined, they might find spiritual nourishment in that.

Why should their church or denomination lay on sessions to feed their need for some kind of apparent supernatural affirmation or 'prophetic' direction?

I can see what you're getting at but a perceived lack of something doesn't necessarily mean that we should go looking for it in the wrong places - and I suspect that's what would be happening here. The very fact that this person is setting themselves up as a prophet and holding specific 'prophetic' meetings in and of itself sets my alarm bells ringing.

If they were really a prophet they wouldn't be doing that in the first place.

It's bunkum.
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
Gamaliel

You're making my point for me. This couple shouldn't be planning to attend this event while also be worrying about being imposed upon, or whatever. It shouldn't be an issue because those needs they have should be dealt with by their own denomination. Ideally, they should feel secure in their own beliefs and their own faith tradition, so that if they do attend such events they needn't worry about being overwhelmed.

Of course, we haven't been told which church they belong to, nor which church is holding the event on prophecy. If the couple are Anglicans then there's even less of an excuse - Anglicanism is supposed to be a broad church! But I don't suppose there's much expertise in the URC, for example, in dealing with this sort of thing.

[ 22. June 2013, 12:04: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Ok, I can see your point now ... but there tends to be a certain amount of what I call 'Vineyard-envy' among many Anglicans. They see the apparent success - in numerical terms - of charismatic evangelical churches like the Vineyard or New Frontiers and they think, 'We'll have some of that ...' and then try to replicate it in an Anglican context ... with mixed results.

If these people are 'that way inclined' then they will naturally gravitate towards this kind of spirituality because, for people who like this sort of thing, that's the sort of thing that they like ...



You're a sociologist. Have you read any Andrew Walker? He's a sociologist at King's College London and has written extensively about 'new church' and charismatic movements ... he grew up Pentecostal and is now Russian Orthodox and with 'canon theologian' status in the Church of England. I don't know how that works but there we go ...

Anyway, some years ago now he wrote a paper about a large Pentecostal rally. He interviewed people afterwards about the tongues and interpretations and prophecies and found that people couldn't recollect what had been said. What was more important, from their perspective, was that these things were said and done in the first place.

What the apparent prophecies, tongues and interpretations were doing was to play a reinforcement role - these people felt affirmed and reinforced in their faith by the very fact that these things were happening rather than by any cognitive content derived from the 'messages' themselves.

I think this is an important point.

Prophecy, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.


 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I would also disagree with your point about this couple's feeling of wariness and concern ... I would be concerned if I were them.

Think about it. If you are 'open' to the idea of prophecy and supernatural gifts and so on yet don't habitually worship in a setting where these things are expected or de rigeur, then you are going to have mixed feelings.

You'd be wondering whether you would be expected to 'perform', you'd wonder whether there was going to be hype or manipulation.

Yet, because of your propensity to be drawn to what you see as the vatic and the supernatural then you might be prepared to put up with a certain amount of those things ... you would be attending with a certain degree of hope and expectation yet also cognitive dissonance.

I can well understand that. It's how I felt, it's how I lived for many years when I was involved with more full-on charismatic churches.

The same thing happened in reverse when I first attended more sacramental or 'High Church' services ... a sense of hope and expectation, excitement even, combined with wariness about whether I'd be 'led astray' or 'taken in' by the spellbinding effects of icons, incense and iniquity - as the Protestant Truth Society might quaintly put it.



So, no, I can quite sympathise with Mrs Beaky's friends and in no way would I level any charges at them either for wanting or not wanting to attend this event. I've been where they are.
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
We're never satisfied, are we?
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
maybe Mrs Beaky's friends don't have a Christian context in which prophecy could happen readily, even without it being labelled as prophecy.

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Why not? He's not a tame lion, you know.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Indeed, SvitlanaV2 ... I suspect that there's an element of dissatisfaction with all of us to a greater or lesser extent. That's part of it. Part of the eschatological tension between the now and the not yet.

I'm sorry to keep banging on here, but I'm also not entirely convinced about your point about 'blaming' the church/tradition to which Mrs Beaky's friends belong for not adequately meeting their 'needs'.

Citing the URC, for instance, as an example of somewhere which might not be able to handle 'these things' would be a bit like criticising the Assemblies of God for not meeting the needs of individual members who might enjoy bells and smells every now and then ... or the local RC parish for not laying on a special guest appearance by the Rev Ian Paisley every now and again in the interests of 'balance' ...



More seriously, I can see the point you're making and recognise that your recent experience of churches in decline makes you more inclined to take a more positive view than I might of those outfits which appear to be providing people with what they 'want' in such a way as to encourage growth and vitality.

Not that there's anything wrong with the latter of course.

I think we might be at cross-purposes to a certain extent, though.

I would prefer, for instance, that if a group like the URC were to put on a session about 'prophecy' and so on that they'd do so within their own frame of reference rather than encouraging a free-for-all down at some rally led by some self-appointed prophet without any apparent connection to the ministerial structures of any of the local churches.

But if the URC were to lay on a session about prophecy, I'd imagine it would take a very different form to what's on offer at this particular event. And in that respect may or may not satisfy the punters.

You can't satisfy all of the people all of the time ...


 

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Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
maybe Mrs Beaky's friends don't have a Christian context in which prophecy could happen readily, even without it being labelled as prophecy.

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Why not? He's not a tame lion, you know.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
--Are they being pressured to go? If so, they're better off not going.

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This is it exactly. Why are they going? If it's because they've been invited and feel obliged in some way to attend, rather than a spontaneous, "wow that sounds great, let's go", then best to decline. An evening where you sit there on edge worried that you might be pounced on, or singled out in public, isn't going to be relaxing and is a waste of your spare time.

Would they feel relieved if the event was cancelled? If so, that's a pretty clear indication that they don't want to be there.

Why do they want to go? If this doesn't meet with an immediate clear-cut answer, it might well be that they feel they can't really not go, rather than that they have a specific something they want to get out of the evening.

The trouble with "prophets" is that, like getting advice from psychics, it can often be taken more seriously than advice from another human being because it involves the Unseen. But what comes through from the Unseen is not always of God.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Nor does it stop many church groups from romping with the kitten which they mistake for the Lion and congratulating themselves accordingly, The Giant Cheeseburger ...

As Mark Oakey insightfully said, 'The Church is like a swimming pool, all the noise comes from the shallow end ...'


 

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Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 
Indeed TGC [EDIT - 'That doesn't stop many church groups from trying to set up lion-proof fences so they can worship the Kitten of Judah in safety.']. IMO God tends not to override our wish to ignore him, if that is indeed our wish. I've heard plenty of people (mainly in seminars at Christian conferences) express a wish for more prophetic activity and so on, alongside a sadness that others in their church aren't in the same place, theologically speaking.

What to do if one is in such a situation? Going along to events where the prophetic will be encouraged seems like a decent option to me, albeit noting that plenty of what gets labelled as prophetic is not actually so, and that something need not be labelled as prophetic in order to be so.

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Forgive me, but your default position seems to be that any utterance of this kind has to be a prophecy and the task of the people gathered is to discern it to be so. Would that be an adequate representation of your position?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I would prefer, for instance, that if a group like the URC were to put on a session about 'prophecy' and so on that they'd do so within their own frame of reference rather than encouraging a free-for-all down at some rally led by some self-appointed prophet without any apparent connection to the ministerial structures of any of the local churches.

But if the URC were to lay on a session about prophecy, I'd imagine it would take a very different form to what's on offer at this particular event. And in that respect may or may not satisfy the punters.

---

Of course, the URC would give such a presentation in a URC way. The attenders, being URC members, would accept that. If they were unhappy with the general tone of the URC, they wouldn't be members. Or not for very long. I certainly wouldn't expect the URC people I know to encourage attendance at 'a free-for-all down at some rally led by some self-appointed prophet without any apparent connection to the ministerial structures of any of the local churches.' I wasn't encouraging that sort of inauthentic response.

In the religious heritage I come from it used to be the case that some people would attend a mainstream church in the morning and then a way-out Pentecostal-type church in the evening. This way they would satisfy their divergent spiritual and social needs. I don't know if this still happens, but I imagine that denominational affiliations have hardened over time. I think that having this kind of dual allegiance has something to recommend it, though.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I think that kind of dual attendance thing still happens but not to the same extent as it used to. My old mum-in-law used to attend her parish church in the 1960s and 70s but would often pop out to the Penties in the evening for a 'top up'.

Way back in the early history of Methodism, of course, people continued to attend both the parish church and the Methodist meeting house for long after the Wesleyans seceded from the Anglicans in the immediate post-Wesley era. In some rural areas this persisted until well into the 19th century.

Anyway ...

I can certainly see the appeal and scope for this. It's something I do myself to an extent ... I flit between our evangelical parish and further-up-the-candle or more traditional Anglican places.

So it's not something I'd dismiss out of hand.

@South Coast Kevin ... this sadness of which you speak ... I find myself wondering why these conference speakers are so sad that there is apparently not more of the apparently 'prophetic'. I wonder what that achieves.

I might mourn that evangelical parishes don't have as much emphasis on Patristics or on the sacraments as I might wish but that's not going to get me anywhere either.

I was teasing you to an extent about your default position. I'm not saying that my default position is guilty until proven innocent any more than yours is innocent until proven guilty ...

But I do wonder what all the fuss is about when it comes to the apparently prophetic.

The big, lively, successful churches seem to be big, lively and successful not because they're into prophecy and so on necessarily but because they have a broad appeal with their soft-rock music approach, their friendliness and their family-friendly approach to kids' work and so on ... and they also tend to attract a lot of talented, committed and hard-working people.

I'm not knocking any of that, it's just that these days I tend to see the so-called prophetic element as rather extraneous to all that rather than intrinsic. As the Andrew Walker study revealed, such churches are often more concerned about the fact that they 'felt' that God was speaking to them in some way rather than about what he might be communicating to them.

Do you get my drift?

There's a reassurance in the apparently charismatic that makes it of value. This sense of reassurance, that somehow they are 'on track' is what's important not the actual substance of the 'prophecies' themselves - 99.9% of which I am convinced are nothing of the kind.
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Indeed TGC [EDIT - 'That doesn't stop many church groups from trying to set up lion-proof fences so they can worship the Kitten of Judah in safety.']. IMO God tends not to override our wish to ignore him, if that is indeed our wish.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
BR--

If the car comment was directed at what I said: I just meant that if Mrs. Beaky's friends rode with someone else and her friends decided to vamoose, they might be in a jam. In the incident I mentioned, my friends and I rode with a friend who attended that church. So we couldn't leave until the friend was ready, even though we were freaked out.

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quote:

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Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
dispense with the label "prophecy" and all its associations and think more in terms of speaking encouraging and life-giving words (both general and personal) to one another, with or without prior knowledge of a situation and whether or not based on observation/ gut feelings/ inner prompting.

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quote:

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So much of what passes for prophecy is simply normal, everyday observations that anyone could make without necessarily having some kind of magic hotline to the Almighty.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
... In their own way, charismatics have often circumscribed God as much as anyone else, perhaps even more so. Like I say, I think Jesus' words from Matthew 11 really do apply here. The proceedings are like the children 'playing the flute', and the Holy Spirit is expected to dance accordingly.

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That gets two of these.


Am I the only person who gets irritated by people saying God or the Holy Spirit 'turned up' - or perhaps you haven't heard this usage? Do people not realise that they are at all times in the presence of he who created the earth and the heavens whether they are conscious of his presence or not?

[ 23. June 2013, 07:12: Message edited by: Enoch ]
 

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Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I'd say "RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!"

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quote:

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I s'pose that's why I'm more comfortable with the more contemplative and sacramental traditions these days, because there these things are simply embedded in the normal rhythms and warp and woof of life and not announced in some kind of tan-tan-tarrah! fanfare with the great almighty prophet who is going to come along and solve everything and then fly out leaving everyone else to pick up the pieces ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
That's where I've very happily been too for many years which was why I was concerned to say and do the right things to support my friends.

I also agree with what you said in the seminar anecdote: I just think those moments (i.e. serendipity not fanfare!) are life-giving (and therefore within God's providence) regardless of any faith/ spiritual position. And for me personally they have been an unlooked for but deeply desired lifeline at some key moments in my life.

I hope I'm communicating clearly and not sounding like some super-spiritual weirdo....

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quote:

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I believe that God speaks to us through other people whether they know it or not, and whether or not they believe that God exists. I think it an important point that mostly people are speaking from their own thoughts and experiences, and we benefit from those too. If we look for prophetic words, we are not likely to find them. The Holy Spirit shows them to us at the right time, so that we are affirmed in our faith, God's will is confirmed, and God's good name is broadcast.

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quote:

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Am I the only person who gets irritated by people saying God or the Holy Spirit 'turned up' -

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quote:

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Bugger, Raptor Eye, that was not me correcting you. What I meant was, shaking my head, nodding, pursing my lips: perfection and a notworthy emoticon would have been more therefore less.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:
Am I the only person who gets irritated by people saying God or the Holy Spirit 'turned up' - or perhaps you haven't heard this usage? Do people not realise that they are at all times in the presence of he who created the earth and the heavens whether they are conscious of his presence or not?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:
Am I the only person who gets irritated by people saying God or the Holy Spirit 'turned up' - or perhaps you haven't heard this usage? Do people not realise that they are at all times in the presence of he who created the earth and the heavens whether they are conscious of his presence or not?

---

Stephen Gaukroger (who is a charismatic?) used to tell a joke about someone praying to God about a wonderful church meeting they'd been to: 'God, it was so amazing, so powerful. Hearts were touched and souls saved. God, you should've been there!!'

Of course, more a figure of speech along the lines of a wish-you-were-here postcard to a friend, than a theological statement!

I do have a few friends who use the God turned up language. Although it's incorrect in the way you state, Enoch, otoh it is easy to look at some church services and think that God must've had something better to do that morning.......
 

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Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
...to attend an event where someone who is a "prophet" will be praying and prophesying to envision people for their lives.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:
Am I the only person who gets irritated by people saying God or the Holy Spirit 'turned up' - or perhaps you haven't heard this usage? Do people not realise that they are at all times in the presence of he who created the earth and the heavens whether they are conscious of his presence or not?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:
A Prophet! Really? Oh, ok then. It sounds little different to astrology to me.

Sir Patrick Moore (now in heaven): "Astrology proves one thing, and one thing only - that there's one born every minute."

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quote:

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
People mean something like 'God's presence was tangible today'

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
Paul at least hints at an objective test. He encourages the Corinthians to prophesy rather than speak in tongues because he wants unbelievers in their midst to exclaim "God is really among you" rather than "they are mad".

Meetings of the kind Mrs Beaky refers to aren't usually aimed at non-Christians at all - but even if it's assumed a few somehow end up being there anyway, I'm not sure the former reaction would outweigh the latter.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Can I ask you a question, South Coast Kevin? And it's not a trick one.

Why is it so important to you that people should be able to explore this particular aspect of Christian spirituality?

What do you believe to be gained by it?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I don't consider the 'prophets' of contemporary churches that believe in such things to be prophets in that way. People like Desmond Tutu are far more in line with the Biblical idea of prophets, but self-proclaimed prophets care little for the actual things of God - just flattery and gnosticism.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But in the modern church, why do we even need the day to day prophecy? Why do we need to dress it up as prophecy in the first place, and not just call it 'encouragement' or whatever? I agree with others in this thread that maybe the word prophecy is unhelpful in this context. The NT writers were speaking to a fragile new church, and what the NT-era church needed is not what we need now. I'd argue that the modern (Western) church needs the OT model far more.

Edited to add that the OT model of prophecy built up Israel too, just in the context of wider society. The NT model just seems rather too narrow to be applicable to the modern church - and critiquing wider society is surely part of building up the church? I don't think you can have one without the other.

I think the churches that have 'prophets' are more prone to keeping themselves in a little church bubble - not that other churches don't do this too, but it just seems more pronounced with them. They're the kind of churches where people won't bother watching the news because why do Christians have to bother with 'worldly things'? etc.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:
A Prophet! Really? Oh, ok then. It sounds little different to astrology to me.

Sir Patrick Moore (now in heaven): "Astrology proves one thing, and one thing only - that there's one born every minute."

---

You don't think Paul's observation in Ephesians 4 (about apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers) is relevant any more? Or do we still have some of these roles but not others? Or do you mean that anyone styling themselves as a prophet probably isn't one? (FWIW I'm with you to some extent on the final point.)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If it is the case, as the sociologist Andrew Walker suggests, that the purpose of charismatic 'prophecy' is to build a sense of community and shared experience and to reinforce some sense that 'God is truly among us' - then it does its job.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But let's call a spade a spade and stop kidding ourselves.

It doesn't do you, me or anyone else any good to purport to supernatural prophetic gifts when what we're really doing is kidding ourselves.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd suggest that if any of us really did ever come across a prophecy in NT terms it'd frighten the living daylights out of us - and rightly so.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
What would prophecy look like to you in a church that wasn't charismatic? Not cessationist, just your average mainstream UK church? I'm sure what you would call prophecy does happen, it's just not called prophecy because that word has so much baggage.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gramps49:
I would agree there are still prophets working within the church. There are even times I myself have taken on the prophetic role; however, in the case cited by the OP, the "prophet" is claiming s/he can foretell a person's future. I do not see the prophetic role doing that. The role of the prophet is to forthtell God's purpose for the church in the here and now.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:

What would prophecy look like to you in a church that wasn't charismatic? Not cessationist, just your average mainstream UK church?

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That's the big question, isn't it? What can the mainstream churches offer that will satisfy the interest in prophecy while also discouraging their members from flirting with these dodgy churches and their dodgy theology?

Maybe the mainstream clergy need to be more explicit in the pulpit, explaining why what some of these other churches do is ungodly,
untheological, dishonest, etc. If not the pulpit then in small groups - although some churches don't really have functioning small groups, so any important points really need to be made in the sermons.

If ordinary churchgoers don't know what their own church teaches on a particular issue they're probably vulnerable to the strange ideas promoted by other groups. That's an internal problem more than an external one.

[ 24. June 2013, 15:11: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
 

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Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
I also think that there is an implicit assumption in parts of this discussion that some of the mundane situations in life where we ask for the Spirit's guidance are somehow not as important or genuine as what appear to fall into the "signs and wonders" category.

Let's take a typical Bible study, where at least in my neck of the woods it typically begins with a prayer for guidance in discerning the wisdom in the texts in question. Or take a call committee (something my church is about to utilize), where the assembled members pray for the Spirit's guidance in selecting a new clergyperson. For that matter, take a typical church service that usually involves invocations to the Holy Spirit to sanctify and guide the people of God.

Is it right to assume that the people involved in these prayers and in the actions that follow are somehow not as earnest or "effective" (I hate that word in this context) or engaged with God as people who say they're channeling specific messages from God? Why?

And, given that, as noted, some supposed direct messages from God ("Shop at the Kroger's!" "Wear Easy Spirit walkers with white knee socks, but NO PANTS!" "Stop taking your meds!" run the range from ridiculous to life-threatening, even after being supposedly vetted through a group -- why the assumption that this is somehow a better way of discerning God's will?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Ok SCK - I wasn't particularly 'clever' with my language and I'd also defend groups like yours against the charges levelled against the whacky ones that have been described upthread ...

But having said that ...

There's spiritual-sounding language and there's spiritual-sounding language. I am fully aware that you don't like 'thus saith the Lord' type language and ever-so-holy sounding terminology. But, forgive my forthrightness, there's often a kind of studied informality in charismatic circles that is effectively the same thing - and this applies as much to the Vineyard as it does to Anglican and Baptist charismatic circles.

It's more subtle and less easy to detect than it is in traditional Pentecostal churches and so on, but it's still there.

I bet you a pound to a penny that prophecies in your church are dressed up in spiritual sounding language. It'll just be a 'cooler' and more apparently laid-back sounding language to that which you'd find in the older charismatic outfits.

The reason that we don't get the kind of awe and so on that I'm referring to with so-called prophecies these days is because they aren't the real deal. Or generally aren't.

The woman at the well in John's Gospel was completely astonished when Jesus told her how many husband's she'd had and how the man she was now living with wasn't her husband.

When was the last time you saw something like that happen?

Yes, prophecy is for our encouragement and so on ... but is what we're seeing in charismatic churches today REALLY prophecy?

I don't believe it is for the most part.

As I've said upthread, it's generally:

- Vague and generally encouraging observations of the kind you could find in any and every context.

- Couched in overly spiritualised terms, even if it's done in demotic language and a contemporary idiom. 'And I was like, yeah God ...'



- Not worth the paper it's written on

- A waste of everybody's time.
 

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Posted by wishandaprayer (# 17673) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
What would prophecy look like to you in a church that wasn't charismatic? Not cessationist, just your average mainstream UK church? I'm sure what you would call prophecy does happen, it's just not called prophecy because that word has so much baggage.

---

Hmm, good question. I suppose it should be non-showy, for a start. So maybe some people are talking or praying together and one of them says something that the others simply recognise as the truth. No flag-waving - 'Look, here comes a prophecy!' - but just a sense that God's word for today has been communicated.

---

Being a card-carrying charis-nutjob on the verge of becoming an atheist let me add my two cents.

Most charismatic churches I have been part of - including NFI and Vineyard - have often framed Prophecy and Tongues as two parts of a conversation; ie. Tongues are giving praise to God, and Prophecy is God speaking to us. Putting aside the abusive potential of that, when it becomes an arbitrary stream from someone's subconscious (often mixed with plenty of Barnum statements), surely the purest form of prophecy is the reading of God's word? Since you are to "weigh" everything against that (which in my experience, basically amounted to deciding if you liked the "prophecy"), surely it is the master and source. Which leads (or lead) me to question why we ever need prophecy.

Thank you.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Sorry to double-post ...

What does 'prophecy' look like in a non-charismatic (or non-explicitly charismatic) setting.

Easy.

I've come across several instances in conservative evangelical circles - both Anglican and Free Church - where a preacher happened to allude to something in a sermon or changed tack to include some aspect or other than had particular resonance for someone who happened to be in the service.

In one instance I've heard of the effect was rather dramatic and led to a whole family coming to faith.

I don't doubt these stories at all and if anything, I give them even more credence because they come from people in settings where they don't go round receiving 'words from the Lord' every 15 seconds.

What happened was that something pertinent, pointed and perceptive was done or said that 'unlocked' a situation or triggered a train of thought/reactions.

That sort of thing happens in all manner of Christian contexts - and indeed secular ones - without it having to be dressed-up in highly spiritualised language.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Wishandaprayer - there is a 'more excellent way' and that's not atheism but a recovery of normal, conventional, tried-and-tested, historic creedal Christianity.

You'll find it boring, exasperating, irritating and yet strangely exhilarating all at the same time.

A bit like life really.

The antidote isn't atheism but 'Mere Christianity'.
 

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Posted by wishandaprayer (# 17673) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, prophecy is for our encouragement and so on ... but is what we're seeing in charismatic churches today REALLY prophecy?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, I think that makes sense, Mrs Beaky and Belle Ringer. The term 'prophecy' has so much baggage in contemporary terms.

---

This sort of thing seems to happen to so many words when it comes to religion. We could say something similar about "evangelist", and then even "church", "wrath" (following another thread) or "jihad"... Even if we replaced the word "prophecy", the new word would probably just get polluted too. That's just the way it goes...

Really good to see you back, by the way, Gam
 

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Posted by wishandaprayer (# 17673) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Wishandaprayer - there is a 'more excellent way' and that's not atheism but a recovery of normal, conventional, tried-and-tested, historic creedal Christianity.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by wishandaprayer:
As an example, I remember in an NFI church small group setting, people being coached to pick up on logos on people's clothing that might give you a prophetic picture for them. I'd venture that this is not prophetic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think SCK is tripping over the misapprehension that something has to be called prophecy™ before it is one.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Is it right to assume that the people involved in these prayers and in the actions that follow are somehow not as earnest or "effective" (I hate that word in this context) or engaged with God as people who say they're channeling specific messages from God? Why?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There's spiritual-sounding language and there's spiritual-sounding language. I am fully aware that you don't like 'thus saith the Lord' type language and ever-so-holy sounding terminology. But, forgive my forthrightness, there's often a kind of studied informality in charismatic circles that is effectively the same thing - and this applies as much to the Vineyard as it does to Anglican and Baptist charismatic circles... I bet you a pound to a penny that prophecies in your church are dressed up in spiritual sounding language. It'll just be a 'cooler' and more apparently laid-back sounding language to that which you'd find in the older charismatic outfits.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've come across several instances in conservative evangelical circles - both Anglican and Free Church - where a preacher happened to allude to something in a sermon or changed tack to include some aspect or other than had particular resonance for someone who happened to be in the service... That sort of thing happens in all manner of Christian contexts - and indeed secular ones - without it having to be dressed-up in highly spiritualised language.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
You've said that, but you appear to believe that prophecy, in the sense of God using another person to say something with a powerful impact on the recipient, is more likely to occur in a 'New Church' context.

---

quote:

---

What happened was that something pertinent, pointed and perceptive was done or said that 'unlocked' a situation or triggered a train of thought/reactions. That sort of thing happens in all manner of Christian contexts - and indeed secular ones - without it having to be dressed-up in highly spiritualised language.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I think God is more likely to use people to say something with a powerful impact on the recipient when those people are eagerly seeking for God to use them in this way.

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quote:

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Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
This is not just a recent charismatic thing: I was reared a catholic and still read a prayer guide written by Jesuits where we are encouraged ask God "what he might want to say to us" as part of our meditating. The point being having an expectation of receiving something, just I do during the Eucharist.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Where did this idea of prophet as spiritually comforting fortune teller come from?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
I also (especially after making a commitment to pray about a situation) occasionally dare to say to other people the things which have occurred to me after praying, things which some say have brought clarity and insight to them. I simply say something like "Have you thought about...or it's a bit like...." and leave the rest to them and (dare I say it?!) their relationship with God.

---

I think this is a marvellous thing to do and, as Belle Ringer said, people who don't believe God speaks like this are likely to dismiss such thoughts as coming from their own imagination ('being their own mind's nonsense'). Thus the prophetic gets squashed.

As for things like using clothing or logos to spark of allegedly prophetic thoughts, I have to say this feels dubious and contrived to me. But I think the argument in favour is that part of growing in the ability to prophesy* is learning how better to connect with our own imagination. So encouraging imaginative 'flights of fancy' is part of what one might describe as prophetic training. But it does feel weird to me!

Then there's also growing in the ability to recognise when you've had a God-prompted insight or message. I've had it happen to me a few times, usually when I've been praying aloud with someone or a group of people; for me, it's a sudden and unexpected sense of - looking for the right words - settledness and quietness in my soul. This feeling sometimes comes over me, and I think it's linked to when I'm praying something that is really in tune with God's view or his will.

*Not that it's something we can just develop on our own, but I think we do have a part to play in learning how to hear from God better and pass on what we've received more faithfully and sensitively.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 




I agree with Mrs Beaky but I'm very wary of putting two and two together and making 45.

I'm not saying that Belle Ringer's experiences are bogus - but by the same token I wouldn't be quick to sit in judgement on her local Episcopalian or Methodist church for not getting up to this sort of thing.

I'm not so convinced about 'the prophetic' getting squashed either. Our vicar is so worried about that happening that he allows any old nonsense through as being 'prophetic'. He's told me that he'd rather err on the side of making mistakes with prophecy than to have no prophecy at all ...

Which sounds all very self-fulfilling to me, because what you'll end up with is precisely the sort of contrived nonsense as has been described here - reading things into people's logos and all that cobblers.

There is NO argument in favour of that sort of thing, South Coast Kevin. No argument at all.

If someone wants to 'grow in the prophetic gift' or 'develop their prophetic calling' and all the rest of it why don't they take their heads out of their own backsides and go and help with a soup-run or a women's refuge or get involved with local politics or do something useful for someone else for a change?

Learning to connect with your own imagination?!

Give me a break ...

I run creative writing workshops. I'm using my imagination all the time. Does that make me prophetic?



No, I'll agree that you're onto something - potentially - with that sense of a settledness and quietness in your soul. That sounds very reasonable to me.

But as sure as eggs are eggs any attempts to develop 'prophetic training' are inevitably going to lead to an over-egging sooner or later.
 

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Posted by wishandaprayer (# 17673) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
But I think the argument in favour is that part of growing in the ability to prophesy* is learning how better to connect with our own imagination.

---

quote:

---

Then there's also growing in the ability to recognise when you've had a God-prompted insight or message. I've had it happen to me a few times, usually when I've been praying aloud with someone or a group of people; for me, it's a sudden and unexpected sense of - looking for the right words - settledness and quietness in my soul.

---

Something that occurs to me which Belle Ringer's last post also highlights is that regardless of our different theological positions and praxis, we impoverish ourselves if we insist on others doing things in "our" way/ style and we move into the dangerous territory of judgement when our assessments of other people are harshly expressed.....
I'm not talking about this thread (I'm grateful for your kindness) but remembering conversations I've had where I've been laid into by people of all different opinions on this whole "prophetic" topic!
It's a given that hype etc are at best less than helpful and can actually be dangerous, after all we're exhorted to build one another up not massage our own egos!
I guess it's a question of learning to discern the voice of God forourselves whether it be through our private devotions or through the words of others spoken in a myriad of ways and settings.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Wishandaprayer ... yes, although I would add some caveats.

I don't have a problem with the idea that God can speak to us through our imaginations, external circumstances, the created and natural order and so on and so forth ... God isn't restricted to the pages of the Bible.

In my experience the older Christian traditions - Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism - I can't speak for Lutheranism but I wouldn't be surprised if it applies there too - are much more holistic when it comes to dealing with the links between the spiritual and the natural.

There can - at the extremes - be an almost Gnostic element within charismatic Christianity - the rejection or down-playing of 'normal' or 'ordinary' means of grace (to use an old Reformed phrase) in favour of flashy revelations and putative prophecies and so on.

We learn to discern.

That's why I say that RC guided-prayer and spiritual direction, the spiritual guide tradition found in Orthodoxy and various Anglican equivalents of these things are more grounded and - dare I say it - sensible.

I would say a similar thing about the old Puritan devotional practices - reading, reflection, weighing and assessment.

I'd also suggest that the Quakers are pretty good at this sort of thing too.

It's as if, in charismatic circles, it has to be dressed up in vatic language or put across as if one has some special hotline to heaven. 'I was sitting on the top deck of the bus the other day and God spoke to me ...' the subtext being, 'Look at me, I'm so spiritual that God even speaks to me on the No.26 bus ...'

Sure, God had speak to us and direct and guide us but 9 times out of 10 I'm sure he wants us to grow up and make our own decisions. 'Love God and do what you will ...' was how Augustine put it. The idea, of course, being that if we indeed loved God then what we 'will' would be in line with His will.

I don't think it's healthy to cultivate a mindset and lifestyle where we think that God is going to speak to us and direct us over every specific whipstitch in life - where to work, what career to follow, who to marry ... he's given us a brain to work with.

What this sort of thing can lead to is the kind of dependence on Grand Whazoo figures such as was warned against upthread ... and in the more Catholic traditions there are safeguards against that (in theory at least) or the devolvement of responsibility.

I well remember hearing people say that they hadn't done such-and-such-a-thing that was needful and practical because, 'God hasn't told me to do it yet ...'



I'd go further and suggest that the constant quest for 'words' for specific directive prophecies and so on was a sign of spiritual immaturity.

Yes, 'earnestly desire spiritual gifts ... especially that ye prophesy' - but I'm not convinced that what we see in charismatic circles these days is anything remotely like what prophecy was in the NT.
 

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Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not so convinced about 'the prophetic' getting squashed either. Our vicar is so worried about that happening that he allows any old nonsense through as being 'prophetic'. He's told me that he'd rather err on the side of making mistakes with prophecy than to have no prophecy at all ...

---

Do you take this attitude into every field of life, or is just prophecy where it's better to have none at all than 'err on the side of making mistakes'?

and right back at you!

Having said that, we do need to be careful with the prophetic. For me, a key part of that is respecting and strengthening people's ability to say 'Sorry, but that means nothing to me' when receiving a so-called prophetic word. I think much harm can result from people feeling pressured to treat a message seriously, perhaps because it's come from the big prophet man or it was delivered in holy-sounding language.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If someone wants to 'grow in the prophetic gift' or 'develop their prophetic calling' and all the rest of it why don't they take their heads out of their own backsides and go and help with a soup-run or a women's refuge or get involved with local politics or do something useful for someone else for a change?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But as sure as eggs are eggs any attempts to develop 'prophetic training' are inevitably going to lead to an over-egging sooner or later.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There can - at the extremes - be an almost Gnostic element within charismatic Christianity - the rejection or down-playing of 'normal' or 'ordinary' means of grace (to use an old Reformed phrase) in favour of flashy revelations and putative prophecies and so on.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's as if, in charismatic circles, it has to be dressed up in vatic language or put across as if one has some special hotline to heaven.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure, God had speak to us and direct and guide us but 9 times out of 10 I'm sure he wants us to grow up and make our own decisions. 'Love God and do what you will ...' was how Augustine put it. The idea, of course, being that if we indeed loved God then what we 'will' would be in line with His will.

I don't think it's healthy to cultivate a mindset and lifestyle where we think that God is going to speak to us and direct us over every specific whipstitch in life - where to work, what career to follow, who to marry ... he's given us a brain to work with.

---

I'd agree with this too, and I love that Augustine quotation! I see prophecy not so much as being about predicting the future or providing direct guidance (apply for this job, date that person, move there...) as giving encouragement that God is with us and strengthening the church to do the works of God.

I really think, Gamaliel, that you're taking the most extreme, abusive practices of charismatic Christianity and then, when I or others talk about prophecy, you think we're lauding those very practices that you find so dangerous. Speaking just for myself, I think many of those practices are dangerous too! No doubt, I'm expressing myself badly at times but please try to see what I'm advocating and defending, which may not be the same as your image of charismatic prophecy or other spiritual practices.
 

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Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
Some of this is rather Hellish...
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Ok, let's step back from the brink of Infernal Diss ...



I think we're talking past each other to a certain extent, South Coast Kevin.

I'm not suggesting that prophecy, in the way you understand it, doesn't happen.

I think you'd agree with what I'm about to say.

My take would be that rather than 'seek' prophecy in and of itself, it would be better if we simply got on with trying to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, souls and strength and what you (or I) take to be prophetic would then flow out of that ...

The mistake I think, is to treat prophecy as some kind of spiritual muscle that we can exercise and improve.

As for our vicar's approach. I think he's wrong. Rather than defending or encouraging prophecy I think it will have the opposite effect.

I'd much rather he 'modelled' - to use an old Vineyard phrase - the celebration of the sacrament s and got on and applied the standard means of grace and if prophecy developed from that - then great. It might actually look different from what he's expecting ...
 

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Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
My take would be that rather than 'seek' prophecy in and of itself, it would be better if we simply got on with trying to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, souls and strength and what you (or I) take to be prophetic would then flow out of that ...

---

What, though, of Paul's instruction to 'eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy'? What does it look like to 'eagerly desire' prophecy? I think it's pretty difficult to do this without some element of intentionality, for example workshop sessions where people are encouraged to prophesy along with teaching about the biblical and contemporary practice (and pitfalls!) of prophecy.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Do you really think they held 'workshop sessions' to teach people how to prophesy in NT times, South Coast Kevin?

Ok, so you had the rather mysterious 'School of the Prophets' which we hear about several times in the OT ... but I hardly think they had PP slides and focus groups and so on ...



'Eagerly desire that you may prophesy' has been understood differently at different times in church history. The Puritans understood it to refer to preaching and they used to hold 'prophesyings' which were rather ad-hoc sessions of extemporary preaching.

The current charismatic understanding of it is of relatively recent coinage.

For my own part, I understand it to refer to the ability to proclaim/speak out the 'word of the Lord' in some way - however we understand that to be. I wouldn't be surprised from the context that it consisted of some form of short homily or exhortation with several people speaking in relays.

The Didache gives some interesting indications of how these sort of things were done in the immediate post-NT period ... but I'm not sure I'd use it as a blue-print on how to run a church service ...

It is difficult to 'reconstruct' a church service from the first century. In many ways it would have resembled a synagogue service - and synagogue services were (and are) pretty liturgical.

On one reading of the salient passages in 1 Corinthians you could argue that the apostle Paul was trying to restrict and regulate vocal contributions rather than to encourage them as some kind of charismatic free-for-all.

I'm not sure I'd sign up for any one prescriptive understanding of how these things operated back then nor how they operate now.

What I'd certainly draw the line at are workshops and seminars to instruct people how to do this sort of thing. I just don't buy that.

I'm happy with creative writing workshops and so on but not with so-called prophetic ones.

We're talking about spiritual gifts here, not things that you can learn and pick-up by practice.

Ok, so some of these things may come in 'kit-form' - an Airfix model could be a welcome gift - but generally from the context of what we see in the NT I don't get the impression that's how these things work.

I don't have a problem with sessions which explore prayer or which look at 'how to' pray and so on but the idea of a 'how to prophesy' workshop just sounds well ... wrong ...

More wronger than a wrong thing.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
While I think on't, though, in fairness to the charismatic outfits I know, the practice of open sharing and exhortation can be quite empowering and developmental ... but it can appeal to particular personality types more than others.

This pre-dates the charismatic thing, of course - although I'd say that the Church/es have always been 'charismatic' in the full and true sense of the term.

It's no accident that many of the early trades union leaders came out of the non-conformist chapels - and why many trades unions were formed into 'chapels' as well as 'lodges'.

The experience of organising or administering a class-meeting or Bible group was eminently transferable.

I did some work recently with an organisation that trains people to speak in public - they were mostly sales people, early career academics, people with a particular 'cause' to promote or else retired people wanting something to do. What struck me was how empowering they'd all found it.

I'm quite a shy guy but I can quite confidently give presentations, lead small groups sessions and so on. Why? Because I had experience of that back in my full-on charismatic days and it transferred very naturally into some workplace and leisure contexts.

This is one of the reasons why I'm quite sceptical of contemporary prophecy as it is currently framed and presented ... not so much because I've had bad experiences of it but because I see the self-same thing happening in other contexts without any particular significance or 'faith' element being attached to it.

I have a friend who works in team-building and development and she says exactly the same thing. She's led sessions where what would be called 'prophecies' or 'revelations' came out in small group dynamics. All groups have their own language and traditions, customs and so on from which exemplars and stories, illustrations and so on emerge.

This isn't that different to what happens in charismatic gatherings where the group dynamic provides the motor and the motivation to a large extent for what goes on and what emerges and is transmitted.

Sure, God can be involved with that - as the Baptists certainly believe in the context of their 'church meetings' where collectively they 'find the mind of Christ' over particular issues or decisions.

If there were scope for workshop sessions I'd say they were around this whole area - to understand what's really going on rather than jumping to superspiritual and over-egged conclusions.

God works through the everyday warp and woof of our lives. Discernment is all about how that works out in practice. They may sometimes be 'words' or 'prophecies' but generally these would take the form - I submit - of wise or practical insight rather than the kind of silly 'I see a flower growing out of that person's head and I feel the Lord say to me that they need to bloom where they are planted ...' and all that malarkey.
 

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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
I guess it also depends what to eagerly desire looks like. To me, that's about being hungry for God's kingdom on Earth, but not asking God for prophecy directly. There's a difference between being eager to hear things of God - which as we've seen, can happen even in secular circumstances - and being demanding. All the times where I've received what might be called prophecy have been when I wasn't expecting it.

I think there's overlap with the conversation about Victory Church - being confident that God provides prophecy but not putting demands on God, or needing to be in xyz church/place/denomination etc.

As for denominations that don't believe in prophecy, I would say that almost all of them do but would call it something different. Methodists have Experience, RCs have lectio divina, even cessationist Calvary Chapel-type Calvinists will have the extempore preaching Gamaliel talked about, which I would certainly call prophecy that's just given a different label (even if I don't think most things they talk about would actually be prophetic).
 

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Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Do you really think they held 'workshop sessions' to teach people how to prophesy in NT times, South Coast Kevin?

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I guess it also depends what to eagerly desire looks like. To me, that's about being hungry for God's kingdom on Earth, but not asking God for prophecy directly. There's a difference between being eager to hear things of God - which as we've seen, can happen even in secular circumstances - and being demanding. All the times where I've received what might be called prophecy have been when I wasn't expecting it.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, do you not also think that there has been a 'watering down' of what comprises prophecy if we include some of the more jejune and general platitudes, pictures and nice, cosy, comforting thoughts and impressions that form the basis of about 99.9% of charismatic 'prophecy' from what I can see?

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd suggest that it isn't the likes of Jade Constable who is diluting things but contemporary charismatics.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I still think, South Coast Kevin, that you are conflating what you take to be the experience of the early Church to be virtually identical to that of your own movement.

I'm suggesting that it might not be.

That doesn't mean that I'm suggesting that it is 'not of God' or whatever - I'm not that reductionist - but you seem to have a paradigm in which your way of doing things is THE way of doing things.

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
God is fair after all.

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
[QUOTE]But some of those apparently jejune outpourings have had a strongly positive effect on the recipients, so maybe some were actually more like the messages Belle Ringer shared upthread (thanks for that, by the way, BR; your post really encouraged me!). How can anyone but the recipient really tell?

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
People want affirmation and a sense of security. Some people apparently find it in 'words' and 'prophecy' and so on ... others, presumably, find the same level of comfort in familiar liturgies or in their understanding of the eucharist or whatever else it might be.

There's nothing intrinsically 'wrong' with any of that. Nor, I submit, is there anything wrong with South Coast Kevin's zeal and desire to see God 'move' in the kind of ways he envisages.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm more inclined to see God involved in the general warp and woof of everyday life.

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So am I. Although I believe strongly in God's providence, I can get tetchy when my fellow evangelicals over-use jargon like 'the Lord told me this' and 'I felt the Lord saying that' etc. Of course I believe that God guides us, and that He is interested in various aspects of our lives -God is both immanent and transcendent. But I don't believe that God being sovereign means He micro-manages us. And very often that kind of rather over-blown Christian language can act as a mask - you feel you have to say something spiritual to prove to your fellow Christians how spiritual you are. I've fallen into that trap in the past, and I try very hard to avoid it now.

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I know I'm an old git but the whole charismatic scene seems far less discerning and far less sensible in many ways than it used to be when I first encountered it in the early '80s ... but that might just be jaundiced memory on my part. We all like to think that what we were into was better than what other people have now.

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Ooooh, I don't agree! The NFI churches (they weren't called that then) in the 70s and 80s had a pretty bad reputation for 'heavy shepherding'. And as a teenager I encountered some really cringey and potentially very damaging stuff. A lot of it from my youth leaders, I'm afraid. Well-meaning people, but oy.
 

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Posted by iamvalisme (# 13233) on :
 
Speaking as someone who is occasionally used by God to prophecy to others, (Charismatic style of church), I am very wary of any one who claims to be a "prophet", especially if they would set up a meeting in order to prophecy directionally to others. I always start by saying something along the lines of "I believe God may be saying ...", and I would always expect that if I am correct, I will just be confiming a direction already sensed. I am also very willing to be ignored, or have the person say "what a load of rubbish".
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Sure, Laurelin, I agree that the heavy-shepherding aspect isn't as bad as it was back in the 1980s but overall I don't see a great deal that would lure me back into more full-on charismatic circles.

I'm sort of post-charismatic - which is not the same as ex-charismatic or anti-charismatic.

I think there's still an oomph and energy and activism about charismatic churches that still make them a force to be reckoned with - but if we're talking about 'hearing from God' and so forth, they wouldn't be my first port of call.
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 

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Originally posted by iamvalisme:
I am also very willing to be ignored, or have the person say "what a load of rubbish".

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I'm sort of post-charismatic - which is not the same as ex-charismatic or anti-charismatic.

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Where [do] we draw the line? At what point do practices which we may not understand or approve become practices that we might either wish to promote or proscribe - or at least channel or manage differently?

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've read material by Baptist ministers taking up new pastorates and wondering aloud what their approach would/might be should certain practices or emphases emerge within their new congregation/appointment.

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I'm not sure the CofE would see its role in the way you've outlined here. It's a very good question, though, as to how the CofE DOES see its role.

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I'm also not so convinced that the CofE is necessarily the church with the most respected theologians either. For someone in a 'new church' or a Pentecostal church or some independent hyper-reformed cessationist church, then Anglican theologians would hardly get a look in.

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I meant respected among the mainstream.

Of course, I'm aware that all mainstream ordinands study the same list of theologians from throughout the ages, but I'm thinking of the contemporary environment. Methodist theologians, so I hear, aren't making waves at the moment, although some of them may be very good.

If the problem of bad theologies creeping into the Baptist or Anglican churches is a real one, then surely there does need to be some intentionality in dealing with it. Doesn't there? Or maybe, at the end of the day, the clergy really aren't all that bothered.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Hmmmm ...

I think you're hitting on some key issues here, SvitlanaV2 and I find myself thinking, 'Yes ... no ... yes, but ...'



On the thing about Baptist ministers developing a 'policy' for dealing with these things. Yes, I think I've seen that happening in practice. I can't generalise, but the way they seem to handle it is to listen, observe and not be too interventionist. They might then - if they feel there are imbalances - address some of the issues in their preaching and teaching or through the church meetings ... which is where the 'fun' might start ...

I s'pose it all depends, in any of these instances, where they are 'at' themselves. They might want to 'push' these things. I've seen that happen too.

In the CofE I've heard of some pretty dire examples of full-on charismatic clergy trying to introduce full-on Toronto-style practices to sleepy medieval parish churches in twee villages and so on ... and then wondering what went wrong when nobody 'bites' and everyone complains to the Bishop ...

In some respects, congregational forms of church polity are able to absorb and cope with this sort of thing more readily ... but then what happens is that the part of the congregation that 'wants' this sort of thing may hive off and do their own thing.

That seems to happen less these days though.

In marketing terms I think we're in the late-maturity stage of the Product Life Cycle when it comes to the contemporary charismatic scene. There are a few Laggards picking up on it but on the whole I think that everyone who wants to get into these things has more or less done so by now - and either emerged from the other end or are beginning to feel things getting a bit rocky ...

That said, I think it doesn't do to underestimate the capacity of this kind of spirituality to evolve and adapt.

Look what happened when the early Pentecostals 'clocked' that they weren't actually speaking Indian or Chinese at all when they were speaking in tongues. They didn't stop speaking in tongues, they simply came up with a different explanation (based on dubious exegesis in my view but hey ...) for what they were up to.

My guess would be that the current crop of charismatics will gradually morph into tamer versions of their current selves - just as the Quakers did in the 17th century.

There are plenty of 'charismatic' style fellowships around which use the music and the terminology but where you don't get that much in the way of apparent 'prophecy' and the more spectacular 'spiritual gifts'. Every now and then they'll stir things up with a conference or some faddish development but then lapse back to steady-state.
 

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Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I'd say "RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!"

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I think this gets it about right. Look at the Old Testament tradition. Can you imagine Elijah attending an event like this? Real prophets are trouble: they go where they're not wanted, and kick ass. False prophets are trouble: they go where they are wanted, and lead people into darkness.

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