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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Protestant denominations and devotional writings
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
This has been triggered by Jade Constable's thread about the prevelance or otherwise of 'academic' theology across the various Protestant denominations.
Let's tackle it another way ... what have people noticed about the use of devotional writings among Protestant groups?
I'm thinking of works by the great mystics - St John of The Cross, St Theresa of Avila, say - or books of 'practical divinity' as they would once have been quaintly called in certain Protestant circles.
Are their Puritan devotional writers whose works are still current and which inspire many?
Are Protestants, in your experience, turning to people like Merton or to books on contemplative prayer?
How varied is the diet?
Does it incline towards self-help therapy style books in some circles - 'Dream your way to success' - or is all that old-hat?
Aside from the Bible and middle-brow theology, how varied is the devotional reading diet?
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
From my experience (evangelical C of E):
In conservative evangelical circles, there are quite a few who are fans of the Puritans - Banner of Truth keep a lot of the classics in print. Baxter, Sibbes, Perkins, Owen, Bunyan are probably the most read.
It's not at all unusual to find people who've read Brother Lawrence's Practicing the Presence of God, or who use Lectio Divina.
There are always some as well who read the early Evangelicals - Whitefield, Wesley, Edwards and so on. Again, BoT reprint a lot of Edwards, and John Piper keeps doing reworked version of Edwards and Owen, especially.
There's an increasing trend among ministers to go back to the patristic authors. Augustine has always been in fashion, especially his Confessions, but it's not unusual now to find ministers who are reading Gregory the Great, for example.
The other big trend, especially in charistmatic circles, is for a few very widely read people to write modern devotional books with a lot of older influences. Dallas Willard, Richard Foster, John Ortberg and so on.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
The Thomas Merton Society (in the UK at least), while it has many Catholic members, attracts in at least equal numbers Anglicans, Methodists and the like. Not all of whom will be at ease with the label Protestant, but many will. And Merton's influence extends beyond western christendom to other world faiths.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
In some ways there is more variance in devotional reading than theological reading (which tends to be more common amongst church leaders).
This is problematic for the reasons I raised in the previous thread; namely people reading orthodox writings which they are unable to contextualise properly, or reading somewhat heterodox writings without being aware of the interlocutors who engage with the same.
On the one hand this effect is normally confined - in the case of devotional writings - to the person reading them, rather than spread around an entire church. To pick an example - there are plenty of people who have got strange ideas from reading Merton without really understanding his context or what he was trying to achieve. Similarly I suspect that the heterodox bits of some of the G12 literature has been triggered by the original authors reading someone like Theresa of Avila out of context.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Thanks for the responses so far.
@Custard ... I think you're right and your list chimes with what the ideal might be in those circles ... but where I am there don't seem to be many evangelical Anglicans reading this stuff ... although I would certainly imagine them to be doing so across the wider evangelical Anglican scene.
Our vicar is probably familiar with Foster, Willard and Ortberg but I doubt he's read very much of the others.
I think you're right, too, about an increased interest in Patristics but this is generally at a ministerial level I think ... it has yet to percolate into the pews ...
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
Judging by the shelves of Barnes & Nobles around here, most folks seem to read anything by Max Lucado or T.D. Jakes. I must confess that I've never met anyone who acknowledges having read either man, but it's hard to imagine that the book stores would fill their shelves with this dreck if someone weren't buying a lot of it.
--Tom Clune
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
From my experience (evangelical C of E):
In conservative evangelical circles, there are quite a few who are fans of the Puritans - Banner of Truth keep a lot of the classics in print. Baxter, Sibbes, Perkins, Owen, Bunyan are probably the most read.
It's not at all unusual to find people who've read Brother Lawrence's Practicing the Presence of God, or who use Lectio Divina.
There are always some as well who read the early Evangelicals - Whitefield, Wesley, Edwards and so on. Again, BoT reprint a lot of Edwards, and John Piper keeps doing reworked version of Edwards and Owen, especially.
There's an increasing trend among ministers to go back to the patristic authors. Augustine has always been in fashion, especially his Confessions, but it's not unusual now to find ministers who are reading Gregory the Great, for example.
The other big trend, especially in charistmatic circles, is for a few very widely read people to write modern devotional books with a lot of older influences. Dallas Willard, Richard Foster, John Ortberg and so on.
This has been my experience too.
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Laurelin
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# 17211
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Posted
Judging from the experience of my house group members in my evangelical, charo-lite church, most of them struggle to find enough time and inclination to read the Bible, let alone the Church Fathers!!
I've read a smidgeon of Brother Lawrence, Mother Julian and Thomas Merton. I've read some primers on Ignatian spirituality. Not read much of Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross.
I would call A.W. Tozer and Oswald Chambers evangelical mystics. Tozer was a very interesting and prophetic guy, hard to label, fundamentalist in some ways but far, far more thoughtful and mystical than your average fundie. He often quotes Julian of Norwich. Both he and Chambers, in their writing, are very much about the soul's union with God, but also against fuzzy notions of spirituality. There's a certain type of evangelical spirituality which can be very saccharine (I'm not talking about the charismatic stream, which also has its gooey side). I'd say both Tozer and Chambers avoid that trap. Both men knew about the demands - and the agony and ecstasy - of serving God.
I read the devotional 'His Utmost for His Highest' almost every day. It's challenging stuff, beautifully expressed. Chambers comes across as a sensitive and intuitive man. Somehow I can't see the Fathers and Mothers quibbling about where he was coming from ...
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, I'd go along with that, Laurelin and I've come across former evangelicals who are now in more sacramental or 'High Church' settings who maintain an admiration for Tozer and Chambers.
I think they're both sadly neglected and overlooked by a later generation of evangelicals and represent, as you say, a robust and non-gooey aspect of the tradition.
Incidentally, the list I gave in the OP wasn't meant to be prescriptive of course ... I just happened to think of a few representative devotional writers from a variety of backgrounds and traditions. There will be others and you've reminded us of some important ones, Laurelin.
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
Judging from the experience of my house group members in my evangelical, charo-lite church, most of them struggle to find enough time and inclination to read the Bible, let alone the Church Fathers!!
The best way in would for them would be the likes of Richard Foster/ Dallas Willard who quote extensively from the mystics and church fathers healthy portions of the bible while they are at it.
Eugene Peterson is one of the best devotional/ pastoral/ study writers IME. He brings it to life.
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
The best way in would for them would be the likes of Richard Foster/ Dallas Willard who quote extensively from the mystics and church fathers healthy portions of the bible while they are at it.
Definitely. We're always likely to read books (listen to talks, watch video clips etc.) by people in our 'camp' as it were, but I suppose there are authors / speakers of all theological flavours who bring in plenty of wider perspectives. Foster and Willard are two authors who have very much done this for me, introducing me to the works of people like Teresa of Avila and Thomas a Kempis.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
... or reading somewhat heterodox writings without being aware of the interlocutors who engage with the same.
One could mention the amazing, but totally dodgy, Watchman Nee, who was very popular when I was a teenage evengelical. And any number of rather gushing Pentecostalist books about purity and self-denial and fasting, sort of the bastard grandchildren of the Keswick Convention and the Welsh Revival.
But maybe all that is out of date now. Its been a long time since I came across it.
As for what people read now - how woudl I know? We're evangelical Anglicans! We don't talk about this sort of stuff in public. I mean seriously. On the one hand we have the evangelical reluctance to seem "puffed-up" and draw attention to yourself (as if humility consisted in hiding behind the sofa when the LORD went by); and on the other hand we have the very English cultural idea that religion is private, personal, to be done behind closed doors. So we don't have casual conversations about such things. No-one hangs around after church saying "I read this really good book about prayer and fasting the other day" or "I tried using the ROsary(TM) three times a week and its working wionders!" Its Just Not Done. So once you are out of the semi-formal atmosphere of a bible study or prayer meeting or whatever, True Anglican Evangelicals would no more discuss their prayer habits with each other than they would compare brands of condoms.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
... or reading somewhat heterodox writings without being aware of the interlocutors who engage with the same.
One could mention the amazing, but totally dodgy, Watchman Nee, who was very popular when I was a teenage evengelical. And any number of rather gushing Pentecostalist books about purity and self-denial and fasting, sort of the bastard grandchildren of the Keswick Convention and the Welsh Revival.
Watchman Nee was actually one of the examples I was thinking of without naming, and those gushing books on Pietism still exist, though occasionally some of the authors change.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Thanks Ken ... so now I know why no-one talks about such things in our parish ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Good observations. I'm of a similar vintage to your good self and yes, the Watchman Nee stuff and gushing Keswick/Welsh Revival influenced material was de-rigeur when I first encountered the charismatic evangelical scene in the early '80s.
I have no idea what charismatics read these days ... if indeed they read anything ...
Don't they all just watch God TV? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
OK, mild exaggeration in my last post. But only mild.
Sometimes old writers are talked about. Not many. If we ignore for a moment the minority of keenies who will read anything (like most of us here!) my guess is the only one of the church fathers much read by lay evangelicals is Augustine, and then mostly snippets in other books. From the Middle Ages lots of people will have heard of Julian of Norwich and Thomas a Kempis. Once upon a time a great many would have read some of the Reformers and Puritans but I'm not sure that's true now. Big exception to that might be Richard Baxter, who is still printed and read I think. Well, he's certainly printed, so someone must be reading him, unless there is an EU Baxter mountain in a publisher's basement. He's probably the only puritan writer I actually see on church bookshelves.
There are certainly some evangelicals keen on Merton (I have no idea why, its hard to understand how anyone can stay awake while reading him) but my suspicion is that either they are verging on not being evangelical any more, or they are quite self-consciously trying to move away from traditional evangelical spirituality.
Evangelicals do read Richard Foster. Even if we get him mixed up with Richard Forster. Or is it the other way round.
Its more common to read inspiring biographies I think. Especially missionaries and evangelists and the founders of new churches. (Oh, sorry, "Ministries", they are all called "Ministries" now.) Missionaries are the Evangelical equivalent of saints. There are loads of popular (even trashy) books describing how various missionaries and evangelists overcame all sorts of difficulties to take the Good News to Darkest Africa/Concentration Camps/Drug Dealers/New York Gangs/Boring Suburbs of Chicago/the Olympic Games/Remote Amazonian Tribes/Death Row/Eskimos/The House of Lords/Japanese Prisoner of War Camps/The South African Cricket Team/Hollywood/Mental Asylums/the Soviet Union/wherever. Or, very occasionally, how they didn't overcome them and were gloriously martyred. The whole thing seems to be about a half a generation out of date (presumably because the brave and bold missionaries of today are busy being missionaries rather than writing about it) so when I was a teenage evangelical in the 70s we were getting stories from the 1950s and 1960s. I think an earlier generation of evangelicals would have had Gladys Aylward and Eric Liddell and the Missionary Aviation Fellowship. And before that it might have been Mary Slessor and Hudson Taylor and David Livingstone. And you can never be quite sure how true it all is. I honestly don't think many of these people deliberately lie, but they certainly paint look on the bright side a lot, and when you read yet another story about how some church in such-and-such a boring suburb of Chicago (or Seoul, or Buenos Aires, or even Brighton) got reduced to a tiny group of old women but they all prayed very hard for revival and suddenly appointed Dynamic Young Minister X against their better judgement and all of a sudden they were getting a hundred converts a month - well, you wonder how long it lasted.
That was overly cynical - some of those books are very good, some of the people they talk about are well worth learning from or even emulating, but the whole mass-media style of the thing puts me off. (Maybe we all got an overdoes of The Cross and the Switchblade forty years ago and I haven't desensitised since) And I have to confess that I have not only read about Mary Slessor and Hudson Taylor and David Livingstone but been seriously impressed by them.
Those sort of book are not "devotional" in the sense the OP means, but I think many people do use them for devotional reading in a literal sense. They hope that reading the stories and thinking about them will bring them closer to God, perhaps by inspiring them to action or helping them decide how to serve God in their own lives. I mean, seriously. "devotion" and "contemplation" are a lot more than sitting in a cell and thinking self-deprecating cliches about your won abject unworthiness. It includes asocial and political action as well, and it includes proclaiming the word of God, these can all be forms of worship, of honouring God, and at least some people find themselves most moved to do those things by the encouraging example of others (Personally I tend to be cynical about the whole thing, but I never was one for role models or heroes and I tend to ignore the Biography shelves of bookshops and libraries. But we don't all work the same way as me, which is probably good)
Right now - well for the last decade or two - there have seem been lots and lots of popular evangelical writers whose burden is that Christians don't have to be as nasty and horrible as everybody else thinks we are. And you are allowed to have a pint now and again. Rob Bell springs to mind. And Brian McClaren. Again, not "devotional" in the sense you mean - well, not always, it is a bit - but its probably what passes for devotional reading for many people.
Actually, come to think about it, you can't really draw a line between devotional and doctrinal. Just as you can't really draw a line between spiritual and physical. That might be one of the insights of evangelicalsism. The doctrinal is, or can be, devotional. And social or political action is, or can be, spiritual.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Ken both your long posts are bang on, but the following is a gem.
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
True Anglican Evangelicals would no more discuss their prayer habits with each other than they would compare brands of condoms.
The reason is related. In the one case, would you admit to it, and in the other, would somebody tell you off for being unsound - or have I got those the wrong way round?
Another thing is that devotional reading goes in fashions. Forty years ago, some people swore by Hannah Whittall Smith and Madame Guyon. When did you last hear either mentioned? Twenty five years ago, it was St Ignatius as interpreted by Gerard Hughes. Fifteen years ago, it was labyrinths.
Except for the embarrassing fact that St Ignatius was a militant Tridentine Catholic, there's a lot about both his life and modern Jesuit spirituality that resonates with more traditional Anglican evangelicalism. It may be connected with their running public schools.
Actually, even the slightly crackpot ones go in fashions. When did you last hear anyone proclaim how one must read Merlin Carothers?
Ken, I also think you're onto something about the role of missionary biographies. Furthermore, many of them are not that dissimilar from saints lives in earlier ages. True, the saints of whom Bede writes did not fly around in light aeroplanes, but even now, missionaries are expected to have their credentials endorsed by miracles, healings, feedings, and even in one case I've read of, a river temporarily being stopped so that people could cross it.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, Enoch, I think Ken's pretty bang-on the button. You ought to publish some of these observations, Ken ... you could be the new Adrian Plass. Or is that too mass-media for you?
I've long thought that the missionary is the equivalent of the Saint in the more sacramental traditions ... and that a similar level of embellishment accrues.
Actually, Plass suggests as much with his 'Lamp-post' Lunchington character, a kind of cross between Smith Wigglesworth and 'Praying Hyde' who used to stand under lamp-posts 'witnessing' to everyone who went underneath ...
I must admit, I hadn't thought of the devotional/doctrinal interconnection in quite the way you've outlined it - but I think you have identified something about evangelicalism at its best there.
I'm so used to blarting on about how dualistic the whole thing is and so on in a kind of post-evangelical (or postevangelical if SvitlanaV2 is correct, the hyphen makes a difference ...) that I often overlook that the tradition can combine a 'practical divinity' with social action and so on.
I also suggest that the reason Baxter is still in print and still appears on church bookshelves is that he was very eirenic and an all round good bloke - and not one of the more 'chewy-a-brick' misery-guts Puritans.
I'd better hide now, before Jengie comes after me to exact vengeance ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Whoops ... must preview my posts.
I meant 'postevangelical ... kind of way' of course and I also meant 'chewing-a-brick'.
I used to know plenty of Reformed Baptists who used to see it as a sign of spiritual 'stoutness' and maturity that they could read John Owen and those Banner of Truth re-issues of 'The Christian Clad in Complete Armour' and so on without falling asleep ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I also suggest that the reason Baxter is still in print and still appears on church bookshelves is that he was very eirenic and an all round good bloke - and not one of the more 'chewy-a-brick' misery-guts Puritans.
Well, all of the Puritans are still in print, and even in the case of Richard Baxter the BoT are the main publishers of his works (suitably and quietly elided of course).
There are plenty of puritans known for their service in ministry - I suspect what makes Baxter popular as a shelf stuffer (rather than actually being read) is the popular perception of his ministry.
It is generally quite hard to write in a manner that is both deep and engaging across years - very very few authors manage to do it with any amount of success. That's pretty much the entire explanation for the chronological bias to most devotional reading.
Suffering through the impenetrable in order to appear deep is a trait not restricted to protestants (see Merton et al).
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
... Suffering through the impenetrable in order to appear deep is a trait not restricted to protestants (see Merton et al).
For that matter, I am sure I am not the only person to find Zizioulas difficult to follow.
Do you think there are books we have on our shelves, or even refer to, because we would like
people to think we read them - the spiritual equivalent of Ulysses?
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
The Puritans I have read were not dreary. They did write and speak to entertain, seriously they did. There aim was for people to read or listen to what they were saying. They were rhetoricians as you would expect a group of people who emphasised the written and spoken word in worship. You can find learned books about their rhetorical style. Even frightening people with the fear of hell was entertainment; it may be unethical but people enjoy being frightened when they know after an hour or so that it will be over. Look how many people watch horror movies! Yes that is not an inappropriate analogy. too many hellfire sermons were crowd pleasers; trying firstly to attract crowds and then also to scare them into salvation. However, and this includes John Calvin, most of the writers were apologists rather than theologians.
Now if you talk of modern German Reformed theologians, I will agree on the impenetrability of the prose even in English (which is often held to be more penetrable than the original German). The spectre of Herr Docktor in theological circles has done huge damage to the accessibility of many texts.
Jengie
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
... or reading somewhat heterodox writings without being aware of the interlocutors who engage with the same.
One could mention the amazing, but totally dodgy, Watchman Nee, who was very popular when I was a teenage evengelical. And any number of rather gushing Pentecostalist books about purity and self-denial and fasting, sort of the bastard grandchildren of the Keswick Convention and the Welsh Revival.
But maybe all that is out of date now. Its been a long time since I came across it.
As for what people read now - how woudl I know? We're evangelical Anglicans! We don't talk about this sort of stuff in public. I mean seriously. On the one hand we have the evangelical reluctance to seem "puffed-up" and draw attention to yourself (as if humility consisted in hiding behind the sofa when the LORD went by); and on the other hand we have the very English cultural idea that religion is private, personal, to be done behind closed doors. So we don't have casual conversations about such things. No-one hangs around after church saying "I read this really good book about prayer and fasting the other day" or "I tried using the ROsary(TM) three times a week and its working wionders!" Its Just Not Done. So once you are out of the semi-formal atmosphere of a bible study or prayer meeting or whatever, True Anglican Evangelicals would no more discuss their prayer habits with each other than they would compare brands of condoms.
What you describe about evangelical Anglicans sharing their prayer habits, books etc is not my experience at all. Saying something like "I read this really good book about prayer and fasting the other day" to someone over coffee after a service would have been totally normal in my former con-evo church. The rosary, no, but that's only because nobody in that church would have touched something so Marian with a bargepole.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
What you describe about evangelical Anglicans sharing their prayer habits, books etc is not my experience at all. Saying something like "I read this really good book about prayer and fasting the other day" to someone over coffee after a service would have been totally normal in my former con-evo church. The rosary, no, but that's only because nobody in that church would have touched something so Marian with a bargepole.
I shouldn't wonder if this is something that varies along both gender and 'denominational' lines.
I currently attend a church in which the attitude amongst men at least is exactly that described by ken - I believe the women in my church do a quite a bit better - amusingly as the church itself runs a bookshop and has authors talk etc.
I've found that interest for reading amongst men in the church was greater in some of the 'Reform' linked churches I've attend in the past - alongside a few similarly minded Reformed/Lutheran churches. Similarly some of the much more liberal churches - though there were far fewer men there to start with.
Amongst the 'reformed'-charismatic reading amongst men meant the Puritans (by which they actually meant Spurgeon) and Wayne Grudem.
In the pentecostal groups I grew up in - men generally would read testimonies - the more violent and outlandish the better. The Lamp-post Lunchington anecdote did ring true - though he didn't drop kick a baby.
And yes, I'd probably say that at least for some the likes of Merton etc function in a similar way that Ulysses does in more secular circles.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Jengie, I was teasing ... believe it or not, I do have a lot of time for the Puritans and they certainly weren't the kill-joys that they have ofgen been portrayed.
And yes, Zizioulas is pretty impenetrable. But I have read him. And I have read Ulysses. Perhaps I ought to put the pair of them together on my shelves ...
Molly Bloom: Ah, bugger and begorrah yer gobshite, I'll giv' yiz 'Being As Communion' alright. Now what's all that about for the man himself?
Zizioulas: Love loves to love love.
Molly Bloom: Now there was I t'inkin' that was Van Morrison ...
Zizioulas: The sea, the snot-green sea, the scrotumtighteningsea ...
Molly Bloom: So, it's talkin' dirty ye are now? Yer blackhearted gombeen ...
Zizioulas: I fear those big words which make us so unhappy.
Molly Bloom: Go on wiz ye ... I love it when you talk so impenetrably ... well hee hee hee ... there's slatternly I am too, and you won't find me so impenetrable ...
Zizioulas: Aha!
Molly Bloom: Yes, I said yes, I said ..
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Gamaliel, that definitely merits
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
one for the idea and the other for the literary skill
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
... Now if you talk of modern German Reformed theologians, I will agree on the impenetrability of the prose even in English (which is often held to be more penetrable than the original German). ...
Jengie, that's brilliant. The thought of a person being more comprehensible after someone else has translated them into a foreign language than when they wrote in their own language gets a too.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
There are certainly some evangelicals keen on Merton (I have no idea why, its hard to understand how anyone can stay awake while reading him) but my suspicion is that either they are verging on not being evangelical any more, or they are quite self-consciously trying to move away from traditional evangelical spirituality.
I don't know about evangelicals but the thread title is about protestants in general, and many would not claim to be 'evangelical' in that sense. Certainly Merton appeals to very many protestants, as well as Catholics and Buddhists. His writings on peace and racial justice are as relevant today as when they were written 50 and more years ago.
Some of his more formal theological and spiritual stuff is indeed opaque and sleep-inducing, though usually worth persevering with. But you should read his journals. And some of his later work like Raids on the Unspeakable. And see some of his photography and calligraphy: there is a wonderful book called A Hidden Wholeness: The Visual World of Thomas Merton. Out of print now but some libraries should have it.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Gamaliel, that definitely merits
one for the idea and the other for the literary skill
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
... Now if you talk of modern German Reformed theologians, I will agree on the impenetrability of the prose even in English (which is often held to be more penetrable than the original German). ...
Jengie, that's brilliant. The thought of a person being more comprehensible after someone else has translated them into a foreign language than when they wrote in their own language gets a too.
That's not unusual, and indeed I believe there is Biblical precedent. Everything I have read suggests that the book of Revelations is radically restructured and re-imagined by a lot of translators to make it penetrable.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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scuffleball
Shipmate
# 16480
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Posted
Do we mean a book followed day by day, or any such "practical" book? I know evangelicals who follow a tome called "My utmost for his highest" with great respect, as well as those commentaries on the Common Worship daily prayer readings with a picture of a snowflake on the cover.
Also in the latter category pretty much anything by CS Lewis, esp the Screwtape Letters, Mere Christianity?
I don't think the divines are read too much here any more - although you occasionally meet someone who knows the divines and the church fathers in equal measure. If anything Wesley is better known?
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Thanks scuffleball, I think you've hit upon another area, the use of daily Bible reading notes.
The Scripture Union ones used to be popular back in the day. Round here a lot of evangelicals seem to use the UCB (United Christian Broadcasters) 'Word for Today' Bible reading notes, which I'd avoid like the plague. Give me the Lectionary any day of the week ... oh, you already have ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
'My Utmost For His Highest' is by Oswald Chambers and Laurelin has mentioned that up-thread.
I'm not sure if the Screwtape Letters classify as devotional reading, though ... ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
Eugene Peterson is a particular favourite of mine. He's Presbyterian, and his perspective on ministry resonates strongly. His autobiography The Pastor is a beautiful piece of work, as is his exploration of lectio divina in Eat this Book. He has loads more out there that I have not read yet, but fully intend to over the next few years.
Another devotional writer I am just discovering is Wendell Berry, who is a Baptist, a farmer, an environmentalist, and a pacifist. I believe he also knew Thomas Merton. As a farmer's daughter myself, I love his meditations on the importance of land and place, and he writes beautifully. I am working my way through The Unsettling of America: Culture and Agriculture right now.
Another on my to-read list is Miroslav Wolf, a Protestant theologian (a member of the TEC in America, I think, but from a Lutheran background in Croatia) who seems to bridge the gap between academic and more popular writings. His book, Free of Charge: Giving and Forgiving in a Culture Stripped of Grace, was chosen by Rowan Williams in 2006 as his recommended Lenten study book.
Stanley Hauerwas is another of those gap-bridgers: Resident Aliens and its sequel are very accessible, though more of a call to arms than devotional books! I know of at least one Church of Scotland book club who have tackled Marcus Borg, Speaking Christian. And Protestants will continue to read Bonhoeffer and Moltmann, both of whom are not entirely inaccessible!
A minister friend who had just moved to a new rural parish told me about an 80 year old retired shepherd in his congregation. "I've been having a read at this Karl Barth chap," he said. "He's no easy. But I think I am beginning to get a handle on him." ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
I think it all depends on what we mean by "devotional" and what we mean by "protestant":
I grew up in Roman Catholic/ Anglo Catholic home and school environments so devotional influences were things like the lives of the Saints, little booklets for Advent/ Lent,Thomas a Kempis and my Jerusalem Bible and yearly meditative retreats.
I then married into a conservative Evangelical family where "devotional" became focused on Bible study with "sound" notes. We were also encouraged to read "improving" books about missionaries and people who had had dramatic conversions, some of which were truly inspiring and some of which were abominably written and formed a whole new genre for me:
"I was a head-hunter until I discovered Christ"
"I was a head-hunter's dog until I discovered Christ"
"I was a flea on a head-hunter's dog until I discovered Christ"
I then moved into Charismatic circles where the inspirational books added their own "extra" (sometimes bonkers) dimension to the head-hunter's story but where I also discovered a lot of wonderful Celtic stuff and people likeHenri Nouwen. However I remained astonished by how few people read the Bible and by the fact that so many people didn't actually read for devotional purposes but relied solely on listening to music and pod-casts (none of which is bad I hasten to add)
I am now (when in the UK) back in a more high church setting which I assume counts as Protestant and many of my friends use the lectionary for their devotional reading.
I continue to use a wonderful, eclectic mix of everything above except for the head-hunter books!
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Cottontail, for some reason I found your post strangely affecting ...
I've always had a soft spot for Presbyterians even though they can have hard exteriors at times. They're great big softees underneath ...
Where's the group-hug cuddle smilie?
MrsBeaky ... heh heh ... yes, it's interesting how Nouwen spanned over into charismatic circles.
I suspect that the charismatic scene relies more heavily perhaps, than most traditions on endorsements and recommendations.
So if someone at a conference somewhere recommends Nouwen then the next thing we know is that plenty of people are reading him. The same thing happens with Willard's recommendations of a Kempis and so on by the sounds of it.
I knew a bloke who used to run an Orthodox book service - he was from an evangelical background originally. He told me that he could always tell when monasticism or the Jesus Prayer or some aspect or other of Orthodox spirituality had been name-checked at a charismatic conference because he'd suddenly get a splurge of orders for books, prayer ropes and so on.
He did indeed have a sudden splurge of interest in prayer-ropes after their use had been endorsed in a popular paperback somewhere. The orders waned just as quickly as they'd arisen.
I think it's a truism that the contemporary evangelical charismatic scene is faddish - but this doesn't always lead to whackiness.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Cottontail, several of your pix resonate with me. In particular:
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
Eugene Peterson is a particular favourite of mine. He's Presbyterian, and his perspective on ministry resonates strongly. His autobiography The Pastor is a beautiful piece of work, as is his exploration of lectio divina in Eat this Book. He has loads more out there that I have not read yet, but fully intend to over the next few years.
I set a similar goal (my husband described my dissertation as "an homage to Eugene Peterson") but have had to resign myself to the fact that the man writes faster than I can read. I'm having the same problem with Greg Boyd.
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
...A minister friend who had just moved to a new rural parish told me about an 80 year old retired shepherd in his congregation. "I've been having a read at this Karl Barth chap," he said. "He's no easy. But I think I am beginning to get a handle on him."
OK, so maybe in another 24 yrs I too can get a handle on him and his interminable sentence structure....
[ 04. July 2013, 15:48: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ahleal V:
Whilst it's not purely devotional, the production of the evangelical based http://www.ivpress.com/title/exc/1470-I.pdf Ancient Christian Commentary - a patristic catena normally associated with RC thought is interesting. Although, when you compare the selections of some fathers with the Catena Aurea of Thomas Aquinas, there are some interesting differences.
I'm not sure what you mean - I presume you mean that there is a slant of some kind.
TBH the commentary series itself owes much more to Thomas Oden than it does to IVP
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
...A minister friend who had just moved to a new rural parish told me about an 80 year old retired shepherd in his congregation. "I've been having a read at this Karl Barth chap," he said. "He's no easy. But I think I am beginning to get a handle on him."
OK, so maybe in another 24 yrs I too can get a handle on him and his interminable sentence structure....
Don't blame poor Karl! I understand that he actually won prizes for the excellence of his German prose. Rather, blame his translators. The story goes that T.F. Torrance, in a bid to get the massive Church Dogmatics translated into English as quickly as possible, simply farmed out 50 pages at a time to his postgraduate students ... regardless of whether they could read German or not. Obviously he had editorial control, hence consistency of vocabulary, etc. But a more natural style in English was not the foremost consideration at the time, and no one has dared tackle the beast since.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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Hilda of Whitby
Shipmate
# 7341
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Posted
I don't know if this is the sort of thing that Gamaliel had in mind, but I'm Episcopalian and have several books by Episcopal priests Margaret Guenther and Martin L. Smith. These are books on prayer, the spirituality of aging, lectio divina, and readings for Lent. I also have a book on centering prayer written by an Episcopal priest, and a modern translation of Julian of Norwich's Revelations of Divine Love. I also have a really good book on readings for Advent and Christmas by Dietrich Bonhoffer.
Again, don't know if this is what the OP was thinking about, but all of them (except Julian of Norwich) are by Protestants and they certainly have added a very great deal to my life.
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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
Posts: 412 | From: Nickel City | Registered: Jun 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Thanks Hilda.
I'm not sure I had specific instances in mind in the OP, although I did give some examples. Rather, I was wondering aloud what devotional writings might be in current currency across the board in Protestant circles - whether Reformed or reformed, Evangelical or evangelical, Lutheran, Wesleyan, charismatic etc etc etc
So, your contribution fits the bill in that you've mentioned US Episcopalian writings and approaches to add to the mix.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Rather, I was wondering aloud what devotional writings might be in current currency across the board in Protestant circles
There's also the enduring popularity of the Bible in X years approach - as can been by the bible reading plans offered at the various bible websites - plus the print versions of the same; either as a plan itself, or as a bible subdivided over X years.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Cottontail, for some reason I found your post strangely affecting ...
I've always had a soft spot for Presbyterians even though they can have hard exteriors at times. They're great big softees underneath ...
Where's the group-hug cuddle smilie?
Ssh! You'll give us away!
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
...A minister friend who had just moved to a new rural parish told me about an 80 year old retired shepherd in his congregation. "I've been having a read at this Karl Barth chap," he said. "He's no easy. But I think I am beginning to get a handle on him."
OK, so maybe in another 24 yrs I too can get a handle on him and his interminable sentence structure....
Don't blame poor Karl! I understand that he actually won prizes for the excellence of his German prose. Rather, blame his translators. The story goes that T.F. Torrance, in a bid to get the massive Church Dogmatics translated into English as quickly as possible, simply farmed out 50 pages at a time to his postgraduate students ... regardless of whether they could read German or not. Obviously he had editorial control, hence consistency of vocabulary, etc. But a more natural style in English was not the foremost consideration at the time, and no one has dared tackle the beast since.
Right I have just checked this, now to semi-out myself. My father is one of the few living who were around T.F. Torrance at about that time. He has not heard this story! A major translator according to him was D.W. Bromley (I rang so spelling may be wrong) who translated a number of texts from German into English.
I also know that post graduate students at Edinburgh at the time could do a course in theological German.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
...A minister friend who had just moved to a new rural parish told me about an 80 year old retired shepherd in his congregation. "I've been having a read at this Karl Barth chap," he said. "He's no easy. But I think I am beginning to get a handle on him."
OK, so maybe in another 24 yrs I too can get a handle on him and his interminable sentence structure....
Don't blame poor Karl! I understand that he actually won prizes for the excellence of his German prose. Rather, blame his translators. The story goes that T.F. Torrance, in a bid to get the massive Church Dogmatics translated into English as quickly as possible, simply farmed out 50 pages at a time to his postgraduate students ... regardless of whether they could read German or not. Obviously he had editorial control, hence consistency of vocabulary, etc. But a more natural style in English was not the foremost consideration at the time, and no one has dared tackle the beast since.
Right I have just checked this, now to semi-out myself. My father is one of the few living who were around T.F. Torrance at about that time. He has not heard this story! A major translator according to him was D.W. Bromley (I rang so spelling may be wrong) who translated a number of texts from German into English.
I also know that post graduate students at Edinburgh at the time could do a course in theological German.
Jengie
I took classes from Bromley here in US, and he swears it's not the translation. And indeed, the problem is not found only in Church Dogmatics -- it's consistent throughout his post-war writings, regardless of who did the translation. Interestingly, when you read stuff like "What do they say?" (an early pre-war sermon) you have none of the ridiculously long run-on sentences-- just lots of sharp, clear declarative sentences. Even the Barmen Declaration is relatively straightforward and run-on free compared to everything post-war. I think it has more to do with the type of writing he was doing after the war, and the feeling that (as he reached prominence in the field) every sentence would be parsed (ironically) and analyzed so you have to cram a lot of qualifications, explanations, considerations, etc. into each sentence.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I tend to be rather agin the Puritans, which is my High Church background coming out, but I do read J. C. Ryle, who admired them greatly. I also like J I Packer - again puritan influenced - and to a lesser extent Stott, who does not sit as well with me.
Otherwise, there is a tendancy to collections of Essays and Addresses. I just finished reading G. O. Simms collection of his friend Michael Ferrars writings, and rather enjoyed the essay on the Benedicite. I will also dip into C. S. Lewis and Michael Ramsey from time to time.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
...A minister friend who had just moved to a new rural parish told me about an 80 year old retired shepherd in his congregation. "I've been having a read at this Karl Barth chap," he said. "He's no easy. But I think I am beginning to get a handle on him."
OK, so maybe in another 24 yrs I too can get a handle on him and his interminable sentence structure....
Don't blame poor Karl! I understand that he actually won prizes for the excellence of his German prose. Rather, blame his translators. The story goes that T.F. Torrance, in a bid to get the massive Church Dogmatics translated into English as quickly as possible, simply farmed out 50 pages at a time to his postgraduate students ... regardless of whether they could read German or not. Obviously he had editorial control, hence consistency of vocabulary, etc. But a more natural style in English was not the foremost consideration at the time, and no one has dared tackle the beast since.
Right I have just checked this, now to semi-out myself. My father is one of the few living who were around T.F. Torrance at about that time. He has not heard this story! A major translator according to him was D.W. Bromley (I rang so spelling may be wrong) who translated a number of texts from German into English.
I also know that post graduate students at Edinburgh at the time could do a course in theological German.
Jengie
I took classes from Bromley here in US, and he swears it's not the translation. And indeed, the problem is not found only in Church Dogmatics -- it's consistent throughout his post-war writings, regardless of who did the translation. Interestingly, when you read stuff like "What do they say?" (an early pre-war sermon) you have none of the ridiculously long run-on sentences-- just lots of sharp, clear declarative sentences. Even the Barmen Declaration is relatively straightforward and run-on free compared to everything post-war. I think it has more to do with the type of writing he was doing after the war, and the feeling that (as he reached prominence in the field) every sentence would be parsed (ironically) and analyzed so you have to cram a lot of qualifications, explanations, considerations, etc. into each sentence.
Ah well. It may be legend. But I heard the story from someone else who was also around at the time, and knew T.F.. It may be that T.F. got his students to do the basic legwork, and then he and others more skilled did the tidying and editing.
Students at Edinburgh can still do a course in theological German. In itself, it does not equip them to translate large chunks of dense German theology, although it may start them along the route to proficiency.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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