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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Small groups and clubbability - pros and cons
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Here's the new thread I promised on the 'Leaving a Church' discussion.
I'm wondering aloud about the pros and cons of small groups - house-groups, discipleship groups and so on.
I'm not particularly thinking of hellish or abusive aspects - although these can and do occur - but rather what churches which go in for the small group model big-time can or cannot offer to those who, for whatever reason, don't see the need for them to such an extent?
I've not attended a 'growth group' at our parish church for upwards of 4 years now and have no intention of doing so. I'm happy to attend the Lenten 'lectio divina' group at the RCs and other ad-hoc groups and discussions from time to time. But the idea of committing myself to regular homegroup fills me with horror - particularly when these tend towards a highly subjective form of pietism - 'God told me this ... God told me that ...' and the kind of spirituality that, quite frankly, I've grown out of (if I can put it in such terms).
And yes, I'm aware of the pitfalls of considering it that way ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
People do need these support mechanisms for sure and I suspect that there's a kind of Fowler Stages of Faith thing going on to a certain extent - although I wouldn't be prescriptive about that.
Some people in our parish seem to thrive on these things. Fine. Good for them. But they leave me cold.
What experiences have other Shippies had of small groups and house groups and so on?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Custard
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# 5402
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Posted
What I'd say to a more mature Christian wondering about joining a small group is that it's really important that you share the wisdom, insight and experience that God has given you with other Christians. We aren't all preachers, but we can all encourage others and help to build others up, and a small group provides a really good space for doing that in a way which is trickier on a Sunday morning because of the number of people involved.
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Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Haydee
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# 14734
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Posted
To me it sounds horrendous, and I have resisted all attempts by our church to get me into a cell (very appropriate word as far as I am concerned - the prison connotations...). I love discussing all sorts of topics with friends, both Christian and non-Christian.
I'm just not a group person. I have also done all my qualifications (up to post-grad) by distance learning.
But some people thrive on them. Horses for courses. I don't see it as a failing to join or stay out.
There are many ways of sharing your faith that don't involve being in a house group ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
The churches here have a joint discussion group that meets weekly for Bible study. I think it is pretty healthy because there is a good balance of people from different denominations and there is no expectation of conformity. It also probably helps that the ecumenical nature of the group tends to discourage any serious fundamentalists from showing up.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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The Midge
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# 2398
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Posted
On the other thread I related this experience of Cell Church (in vogue in my Church 10 or so years ago) quote:
The vision was of a bird with a small wing- the cells- and a big wing- the gathering of a cluster of cells. Predictably enough, the un-aerodynamic picture resulted in the church going around in circles until the proponent went off to a new job. Another difficulty was finding and training enough leaders of the right calibre and getting them to multiply before burn out struck.
One of the theories was that every Member should be in ministry and practicing those gifts in the wider church/ mission. In practice it didn't work so well.
The Folwer faith stages have something to do with it. To summaries stages of faith (as I recall) are a bit like growing up. So you start at
1: baby faith/ infancy, and hopefully grow through
2: conformist childhood,, becoming
3: independent and questioning adolescence, become a
4: maturing adult who has worked through the major questions themselves and might just end up as a
5: saintly wise old bird stage of a saint.
Few reach the giddy heights of stage 5 and heaven help you if you have a stage 2 that thinks they are a 4 or 5 even! Of course some of us may stick at a much earlier stage (still be stuck on milk when we should be eating meat as Paul put it) but have not got to a stage where they properly own and reflected on their own faith.
And that is where home groups may run into trouble: Leaders may be appointed at stage 2 (dependable people who tow the party line and know a bit more than the 1s and because there are not enough 4s to go round), end up being challenged by an adolescent troll, lack the experience of a robust growth into mature faith of Spiritual Formation as the Likes of Foster and Willard describe it.
Added to which there is the Forming, Storming, Norming and reforming group life cycle where relationships are formed. If the group stagnates or gets stuck in a comfort zone then reproduction and possibly Fowler type progression of individuals may stop.
I have always been rather disappointed with my experience of small groups. In theory, or if they work there could be great gains. In practice there are great pitfalls. I know that as a fully paid up member of the awkward squad I am one of those and would probably need to be anchored by several 'stage 4 or 5' people. I certainly don't think that a small group structure is the easy way for church leaders to abdicate pastoral care- in fact the investment in leaders and group growth is significant.
These days our small group programme is pretty dumbed down and one size fits all. I am caught between the rock of non-conformism and the hard place of not being considered suitable for leading such things so thing there is nothing for me there.
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On other days you are the windscreen.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I'm not sure I'd be as prescriptive as Fowler is and ken and others here go apopleptic whenever he's mentioned. I think there's something in it but I don't like the idea of those at the later stages somehow being 'better' than the others ... I think that rather than becoming a saintly sage at Stage 4/5 most people run the risk of becoming grumpy old gits.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I think The Midge has hit on something.
For all our vicar's pushy encouragement for me to get involved with a 'growth group' he's also worried that my comments will 'rub off' on those younger in the faith ... and this is the guy who allows all manner of bollocky so-called 'words' and totally heretical non-Trinitarian viewpoints to be aired publically without challenge ... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
At least any contribution I'd be likely to make would be orthodox (both small o and occasionally Big O) even if I was a complete pain in the arse in the way I said it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Midge
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# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not sure I'd be as prescriptive as Fowler is and ken and others here go apopleptic whenever he's mentioned. I think there's something in it but I don't like the idea of those at the later stages somehow being 'better' than the others ... I think that rather than becoming a saintly sage at Stage 4/5 most people run the risk of becoming grumpy old gits.
There is legitimate criticism of Fowler's linear progression. You're right about the possibility of regression into a senile second childhood!
One person's orthodoxy is another's fundamentalism and yet another's heresy.
The danger of the smallness of a [cell] group is that it could turn inward and not challenge these- then it become a little holy huddle.
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Laurelin
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# 17211
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Posted
I've been an evangelical charismatic-lite type for practically my entire Christian life and I've been pretty much allergic to 'God told me'-style pietism since I was 17. My current small group is refreshingly free of it. But we do talk about faith, and how God can meet you in every day life.
The biggest danger of small groups, as I experience them at present, is complacency and inwardness.
I still think small groups are a valid way to do spiritual formation and discipleship, though. And there is no one way to do it, no one size fits all.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Agreed, Laurelin.
I think there are ways of working these things out in accordance with one's own tradition and inclinations in terms of personality.
I s'pose my beef with the standard evangelical/charismatic or charismatic-lite approach is that it can indeed become inward looking and also highly prescriptive.
From what little I've seen of how small group studies and the like operate within some of the older traditions, there is certainly a set-format but there's less of an expectation for these things to become a platform for a personal pietistic crusade.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I've had some very positive experiences of ecumenical Lent groups. I definitely think ecumenical groups are one way forward, especially in areas where the churches are quite small and there is increasing cooperation on a number of fronts.
I'm a stranger to the 'small group' as understood in the contemporary evangelical sense, but I've been part of lots of other church groups of varying quality, including a class meeting. The famous Methodist class meetings subtly changed their purpose and then gradually died out as active units. The 'small group' seems to be a very different animal, as far as I understand it.
BTW, is there anywhere in the UK where the 'cell group' concept works as originally envisaged? I once went to a weekend cell group conference. The Methodists running it were quite exotic to me by virtue of being dynamic and evangelical, but even they had to admit, eventually, that the whole idea of cell reproduction didn't seem to work in the UK as it did in the USA. Is the problem that our churches are mostly much smaller, so it's harder for us generate new cell leaders to keep the process going?
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
What happens when coming from the other direction? If most members of a large congregation are not seen to be growing in faith, not showing increasingly the fruit of the spirit, not noticing their neighbour who sits near to them every week, let alone visiting them if sick or in prison, and not attending Bible study, prayer groups, Lent groups, etc., what is the way forward?
We surely need our fellow Christians so that we grow in faith, we can't do it alone. I loosely relate to the Fowler stages, as I came to faith as an adult and so the faith stages were not worked through alongside the familiar stages of childhood to adulthood. In small groups whether house groups, prayer groups, discussion groups, Bible study groups, etc I have and do both give and receive. In that way we build each other up in faith, and relate with each other. Loving our neighbour surely means relationship.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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The Midge
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# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
BTW, is there anywhere in the UK where the 'cell group' concept works as originally envisaged? I once went to a weekend cell group conference. The Methodists running it were quite exotic to me by virtue of being dynamic and evangelical, but even they had to admit, eventually, that the whole idea of cell reproduction didn't seem to work in the UK as it did in the USA. Is the problem that our churches are mostly much smaller, so it's harder for us generate new cell leaders to keep the process going?
Surprising but Cell UK are still around from over a decade ago. They had a few case studies when we were doing it. I didn't see the book that featured our local parish as an example of a church in transition from traditional model to cell. We never made the change probably because we were trying to compromise as Anglicans tend to do.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Well, how do you know that these people aren't doing other, equally constructive things out in their communities, Raptor Eye?
Attending some kind of small group is surely not a realistic measure of spirituality in and of itself?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Attending some kind of small group is surely not a realistic measure of spirituality in and of itself?
Just quickly for now, but IMO it's not a measure of our spirituality but rather an aid to strengthening our spirituality. ISTM almost all Christians need the encouragement and care of other Christians with whom we have close relationships in order to develop in our faith. Small groups are just one way of facilitating those close relationships. A very good way, I think; albeit that small groups can be cliquey, self-obsessed, dominated by one person, abusive etc. etc.
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Jane R
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# 331
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Posted
quote:
If most members of a large congregation are not seen to be growing in faith, not showing increasingly the fruit of the spirit, not noticing their neighbour who sits near to them every week...
My neighbour doesn't come to church. It's a bit hard to see her from my pew when she's still in bed.
And I think it's quite telling that you say '...are seen to be growing in faith.' How can you tell just by looking at somebody whether that's happening? Does a growth in faith only count if other people notice it?
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
quote:
If most members of a large congregation are not seen to be growing in faith, not showing increasingly the fruit of the spirit, not noticing their neighbour who sits near to them every week...
My neighbour doesn't come to church. It's a bit hard to see her from my pew when she's still in bed.
And I think it's quite telling that you say '...are seen to be growing in faith.' How can you tell just by looking at somebody whether that's happening? Does a growth in faith only count if other people notice it?
Seen in their actions, their speech, their fruitfulness? People attend church to be part of a community of faith, so perhaps they should be looking out for each other's spiritual growth?
As for your neighbour, some might say she's not part of the church community so her spiritual growth isn't their concern. On the other hand, I read something a while ago that said the church ought to do more to support non-churchgoing Christians in their faith.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Yes, I think all those are good observations.
There was an old saying which had people from various traditions outlining why they should be considered to be growing in faith - generally posited in some form of outward observance. The punchline came with, "'Ask my neighbour,' said the Anabaptist."
As if those with a credo-baptist position were more likely to love their neighbours than anyone else ...
I could see the point it was trying to make but wouldn't be as prescriptive as to which traditions do or don't fulfil that aspect adequately. The question of course, is whether I do ... or any of us do ...
@SCK, I'm not saying that there's anything 'wrong' with small groups - far from it - it's just that some people seem to put such things forward as proof-positive that churches and individuals are growing in faith etc etc ... as if the very existence of house-groups in and of itself is proof of the spiritual temperature of that particular group or body ... and as if their absence means that the reverse is the case.
I may be doing Raptor Eye a disservice but that's how I read his post.
You can have all the house-groups and close fellowship in the world and that doesn't mean that you're necessarily 'growing in faith' - however we define that.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@SCK, I'm not saying that there's anything 'wrong' with small groups - far from it - it's just that some people seem to put such things forward as proof-positive that churches and individuals are growing in faith etc etc ...
I think a good place to start with is the Robert Wuthnow books - they are written for an American context but are precisely useful for that reason. As the small group phenomonae hasn't - in America at least - been confined to the purely Christian, it's a useful corrective to listen to other people talk about the benefits of their particular group and then realise how close the language is to a lot of what evangelicals would deem to be the 'Holy Spirit' working through their group.
He is particularly good on how each group creates a dominant narrative into which individual narratives get recast.
Yes, there are still quite a few churches in which percentage involvement in care group structrues are seen as some kind of measure of progress. For sure they can provide some kind of community for people - or at least an entry into community life, and while it may be highly artificial to be grouped up in this way one has to start somewhere - and it's as arbitrary as any other form of community.
I think a lot of the time the reason they end up being oppressive is that they end up having to take on a pastoral role when the pastors/elders have moved onto a 'Pastor as CEO' model and no longer conducts pastoral visits of any kind.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Can you please define your terms? Small group - is it an onging bible study, a sort of pastoral therapy group, a prayer team which prays for others, an indoctrination process? What exactly? I hear about these small groups, and wonder.
And second, what are you supposed to get out of it? Or is it about the church getting something from the group members?
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MrsBeaky
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# 17663
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Posted
Twenty plus years of my lifelong church experience were spent as a member and/ or leader of a small group.
Apart from a two year period where one of those groups was facilitated by a remarkable woman, I hated those groups!! Why?
- They were not small enough for the desired aim of "opening up": I did not feel safe with 12 plus people!
-There was pressure to perform
- They were often inward looking
- There was such a desire to be true to the "brand" that it militated against real questions and different styles of spirituality
-Also the expectation of attendance week in, week out was burdensome as I am someone who hates to let others down so dragged myself there regardless
However the small groups which I have really enjoyed have been short (ie time bound up to 12 weeks), focused groups for Discussion/ Lent/ Advent/ Bible study/ preparation for Confirmation etc. If they are well led a good group dynamic develops and they can be a real spur to growth.
Finally, from the point of view of growth/ discipleship I like the Celtic idea of soul friends: a spiritual director and/ or a group of 3 friends who meet regularly for mutual encouragement/ prayer/ coffee.....whatever floats their boat!
I do think however (as I said on the thread I once started) that personality plays a part in all this too and that it is good to encourage one another to do whatever works for us as individuals to help us deepen our relationship with God.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
no prophet, I suspect these kind of groups serve all those purposes all at the same time ...
I suspect, to a large extent,they also serve the agenda of church leaders. Where we are, membership of a 'growth group' is certainly seen as a measure of how 'committed' people are ... and this in a parish church context too ... ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
I'm with Mrs Beaky on this one. I wouldn't say I 'hated' my involvement with small groups, but I agree that small groups that meet for a particular purpose and then disband or do something else is probably the best way to approach these things.
I'm thinking of Lent study groups and the like where they meet for the duration of Lent and then that's it ...
On the 'soul-friend', spiritual-director thing, that's something I've recently taken up and I'm finding it very valuable. I'm meeting with my spiritual-director once every 6 weeks and that suits me fine.
I'm not against small groups in principle, it's just that I think they create a sense of expectation that they are unable to fulfil and also the kind of sense of obligation that MrsBeaky mentions.
They also tend to be very 'party-line' by their very nature.
I'd much rather some kind of ecumenical group where I'm likely to meet people with different views rather than some kind of anally-retentive house-group where they discuss the Sunday sermon and so on. I got fed up listening to the prayers in the last of these groups I attended. I don't know how God puts up with it listening to that kind of drivel all day long.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Can you please define your terms? Small group - is it an onging bible study, a sort of pastoral therapy group, a prayer team which prays for others, an indoctrination process? What exactly? I hear about these small groups, and wonder.
All of the above + + +
quote:
And second, what are you supposed to get out of it? Or is it about the church getting something from the group members?
Ask not what the small group can do for you, but what you can do for the small group.
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On other days you are the windscreen.
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Autenrieth Road
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# 10509
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Posted
On the lines of no prophet's question, I have deduced from the discussions about small groups that what is usually meant is a group that meets weekly at someone's house and engages in some mixture of prayer, worship, Bible study, and perhaps other discussion.
My church takes a different approach. We are what would be called a "program church" in the Alban Institute terminology. Our previous rector didn't so much like the word "program" and the somewhat impersonal feel it has for him, although he agreed with what the Alban Institute says about the institutional challenges that our size of church typically faces (ASA 225, across 2 services). His approach was to encourage people to engage with small groups in the church so that they would have a place to get to know maybe 10-12 people closely.
BUT! The definition of small group was very broad. Just about any regular activity would count in the rector's vision: one of our three weekly Bible studies, being in the choir, acolytes, altar guild, flower guild, ushers, social outreach committee, environmental action and awareness committee, men's group, women's group, Sunday school teachers, women's meditation group, anything.
Incidentally, all of these groups meet at the church. Some of them, such as men's group and women's group, have a prayer and personal discussion structure; others don't.
We also have groups that form for only a few to several weeks, usually organized by our Adult Christian Formation group, that cover a wide variety of topics. Sometimes these are large forums and not particularly conducive to getting to know each other, but more often they are relatively small groups in which people can find out about other people in the course of learning about and discussing whatever is the topic of that temporary group.
The goal was not that we should be in a small group that has a certain structure and goals. The goal was that we should have some way to get to know some other people in the church more than we might typically get to know people if we only came to Sunday services and coffee hour.
We are currently between rectors, but the parish leadership has continued the encouragement of small group membership, in this expanded understanding of small group.
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Truth
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Autenrieth Road
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# 10509
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Posted
Speaking to Gamaliel's question about what churches who go in for small groups offer those who are not interested...
I would say my church offers me the opportunity to come to Sunday service, and to engage in chat at the coffee-hour (or just to grab some goodies and avoid chat, if that's my preference), and to come to such educational programs as interest me. At least, these are the opportunities that I take advantage of.
I don't see that it needs to offer me more.
My church isn't heavily into small groups (in the expanded definition that I gave above), in that I think there are lots of people who aren't part of them. Equally there are lots of people who are. But either way I don't feel any problem for not being in any of them, and I don't feel any particularly cliquish feeling excluding those of us who are not. [Hmmm, after writing my paragraph about the Bible Study (see below) I'm not so sure. What I mean is, I don't see the small group members congregating just with each other at coffee hour. Breaking INTO a small group can be wierdly difficult for me at least, but maybe that's just me.]
I think the problems we face are those of any fairly large group of people: it is easy for us not to realize who is a newcomer and thus we ignore them (or we ignore them out of social awkwardness). I know some people may not want to be talked to, but it seems that for most of the people who I ever hear talking about their first experiences at my or the neighbouring church, they find it very important to be talked to early on. I suppose the people who don't want to be talked to never show up in groups I'm in to talk about how happy they were to be ignored, so I admit this may be a biased sample.
Another problem we face is that despite the long list of groups to belong to that our church can make since we count all of our groups as possibilities, I think some people still don't necessarily find what they're looking for in terms of getting to know other people, whether that be at a light social level or at a deep spiritual level.
I'm actually one of those people -- I'd sort of like to be in a group at my church that explores matters of faith, or is a book group, or almost any topic, but I never seem to quite fit into any of the groups at my church. Either I can't get a word in edgewise, or I feel like everyone else's faith is completely unlike mine and I don't necessarily feel safe talking about my faith, or the group (despite our church suggesting "join this group") actually doesn't foster getting to know other people at all (e.g. acolytes, altar guild, layreaders, chalice bearers, all of which I used to do, and loved doing on their own merits, but despite our rector including these on his list of "small groups to encourage people to join so they get to know people", I felt they didn't belong on that list, because, honestly, how well do you get to know someone vesting next to them for a few minutes before going in to church to light the candles and carry a cross?)
I'm fortunate in that I'm involved in EfM (Education for Ministry) that meets at another church (and draws its members from several churches, almost always Episcopal), which is well setup to meet what I'm looking for.
At my own church I'm thinking of starting to attend the Sunday morning Bible study (between services), although the few times I've been this spring I'm really ambivalent. The regulars in it have been doing it for awhile, and they all know each other well, and I actually know all of them and they know me, but still I feel like I don't actually know what the ground rules of the group are, and how to fit in. And given the treacly things they say about the Bible and their faith, I don't even know if I can fit in or want to fit in. (OK, it's not fair to call them treacly: if I weren't feeling so annoyed right now, I would call them all firmly grounded in a very orthodox faith, more power to them.) But I'm going to give it a try.
So that's a lot about my various small group struggles, but in many ways I'm a loner and I think what my church offers loners is quite good.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
The goal was not that we should be in a small group that has a certain structure and goals. The goal was that we should have some way to get to know some other people in the church more than we might typically get to know people if we only came to Sunday services and coffee hour.
Hmm, I like it. Certainly it acknowledges that plenty of people don't need an official 'get to know people better' group in order to get to know people better...
EDIT - Although I agree with your point in the cross-post that some of the activities you mentioned don't obviously lend themselves to getting to know people (perhaps especially - stereotype alert! - for men). I was going to say something like that myself but didn't want to come across as 'yes, but...'
[ 11. July 2013, 17:25: Message edited by: South Coast Kevin ]
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Autenrieth Road
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# 10509
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Posted
Please, "yes but" away!
Even the men's group at my church apparently only really works for older men or maybe only retired men. For men in their 20s-40s, it seems not to be attractive even if they try it once or twice.
[ 11. July 2013, 17:36: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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The Midge
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# 2398
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Posted
I see some traits of an Introvert in AR's posts. We are a much tougher bunch to get going in a small group (for me managing even 3 or 4 relationship dynamics at once is draining). Introverts tend to open up better in a one to one conversation over a pint or cup of coffee in a snug.
Failing that I much prefer a working with a group doing anything but simply getting to know or pouring out their hearts to one another. Forget it if an extrovert takes over! The task and activity give purpose to the interaction. I think task focused groups are a valid way of deepening relationships.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, how do you know that these people aren't doing other, equally constructive things out in their communities, Raptor Eye?
Attending some kind of small group is surely not a realistic measure of spirituality in and of itself?
No, it's not, but one of the symptoms of lack of growth in faith is a disinterest in engaging with whatever group activities are available istm. I wasn't suggesting that they were not doing anything constructive in their communities, but that there was an apparent lack of growth and reduction rather than increase in demonstration of the fruit of the spirit.
Take it as a hypothetical question: what action if any would you take as a leader of such a congregation? Your first indication is that you would deny that they were not growing in faith.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
No, it's not, but one of the symptoms of lack of growth in faith is a disinterest in engaging with whatever group activities are available istm.
Yes, but:
"let alone visiting them if sick or in prison, and not attending Bible study, prayer groups, Lent groups, etc., what is the way forward? "
The first group of things is not like the second group. Let's face it - small groups are trying to create 'artificially' what used to mostly happen 'naturally' - I'm reminded of the book 'The Gospel Blimp'
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Jane R
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# 331
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Posted
Svitlana: quote:
As for your neighbour, some might say she's not part of the church community so her spiritual growth isn't their concern.
Some might. I get the feeling that Our Lord might get quite shirty with them... based on what he said when someone asked who their neighbour was.
It's a trick answer anyway - my neighbour is Catholic ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
I like your idea of ecumenical groups. I think part of the problem with small house groups is that they can get very inward looking. Meeting with Christians from other denominations might guard against that.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Actually, at the cell conference I attended they said that one of the roles of cell was to get involved with the community, to be good neighbours. The inward-looking tendency of some small groups isn't feature of successful small group life. Perhaps it's a result of a group not having sufficiently clear core values and goals.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Those are good questions, Raptor Eye, but I would submit that however we answered them would depend on our particular churchmanship and tradition.
If you're in an evangelical tradition then attendance at regular Bible studies or some kind of 'cell-group' might well constitute a sign that you are 'growing in faith' and demonstrating the fruits of the Spirit (although I'd suggest that the fruits of the Spirit aren't necessarily to do with church activities per se but with the whole of life).
For someone from a more sacramental tradition then regular attendance at the eucharist or observing the feasts and fasts in the ecclesiastical calendar might be some kind of yardstick.
So my answer would be ... it depends.
I don't see how a disinterest in engaging with whatever group activities are available is necessarily a sign of a lack of growth in faith. What if the only group activities available were some kind of dumbed-down or Mickey Mouse Bible study and the person who didn't want to attend them didn't want to do so because they found them too simplistic or pitched at too 'simple' a level?
Of course, that would open them up to the charge of elitism, but I could think of circumstances where this might be the case without there being elitism involved.
I'm not a church leader - aren't you glad of that - but if I were I think I'd look beyond the narrow confines of church meetings and programmes before I determined whether people were really growing in faith or not.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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moonlitdoor
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# 11707
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Posted
I really enjoyed being a member of a home group and would do it again if I had the chance with congenial people. The benefit of it to me was that it's the only chance I've had to ask other people about Christian things. The clergy are always too busy to do more than say hello to ordinary members of the congregation; the longest conversation I've had with any priest or minister in 20 years of church going is less than 5 minutes. So having a couple of hours regularly as a home group I found very helpful.
It may be a side issue but I didn't understand the stuff about pietism. I think I am quite pietistic in the sense that for me Christianity is about how to live my own life, not how the government should organise society. But that doesn't mean I keep thinking God has told me specifically to do this or that, I've ever only felt that a handful of times.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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irish_lord99
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# 16250
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Posted
I think one of the major stumbling blocks between me and small groups is lack of control over what's being taught or determined within the group, and the underlying assumption that more Bible knowledge = greater spirituality. I've been in some great small groups with some dear people, but in the end I'm not sure small group has ever been very profitable for any of us: certainly no more profitable than getting together for beer, burgers, and simple fellowship would be.
In the end, I wonder if that's not the better alternative? Adding Bible study to the mix is probably just accelerating heresy within a church body that already can't agree on whether or not Adam had a navel. Surely more uninformed opinions is not helpful in establishing orthodoxy*?
Certainly mutual encouragement among the brethren is profitable and Biblical, but I've never known a small group with that as it's sole purpose?
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*Small 'o' in this case, though I'm personally hoping to convert to Eastern Orthodoxy as soon as I can convince Mrs. IL99.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Yes, but:
"let alone visiting them if sick or in prison, and not attending Bible study, prayer groups, Lent groups, etc., what is the way forward? "
The first group of things is not like the second group. Let's face it - small groups are trying to create 'artificially' what used to mostly happen 'naturally' - I'm reminded of the book 'The Gospel Blimp'
I disagree. Service to God isn't only good works. Service to God includes feeding the sheep as well as tending them. Prayer, worship, Bible study, discussion, wrestling with the difficult issues, and facilitating all of these are included in loving God with all of our hearts, souls, and minds, as well as strength.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
The clergy are always too busy to do more than say hello to ordinary members of the congregation; the longest conversation I've had with any priest or minister in 20 years of church going is less than 5 minutes.
Really? Have you always been in really big congregations? Or maybe people like me are the reason for that; I've had discussions of an 1/2 an hour or more with the priest or minister pretty regularly in every church I've been in since I became an adult. Some more than others, sure, but they've all been keen to talk and often relieved to have someone actually want to discuss theology and how to live a Christian life.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Thanks for all of the clarifications and discussion since I posted my questions.
I think something that's been brewing in my brain for a while would likely then qualify as a small group. A couple of us have been discussing the service of Compline, and if we should have it once a week. We've been planning on raising this as a Good Thing To Do.
"keep us as the apple of an eye" "hide us under the shadow of thy wings" are among the poetical language.
(edit - something weirdly this way comes with the post auto-posting itself whilst typing.)
[ 12. July 2013, 03:15: Message edited by: no prophet ]
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I love compline but it would appear - and Shippies will correct me if I'm wrong - only to 'work' on a regular basis in residential or collegial communities of one form or other. I did some work recently for an international postgraduate residence in London and they had compline on a Monday evening in the chapel there.
I've not heard of it happening that successfully in a parish context.
And for all the wonder and beauty of it, I'm not sure that in and of itself it contributes to the development of small groups in the way we've been discussing here. You don't necessarily have to stick around to talk, have a cuppa etc after compline.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
In the end, I wonder if [beer, burgers, and simple fellowship is] not the better alternative? Adding Bible study to the mix is probably just accelerating heresy within a church body that already can't agree on whether or not Adam had a navel. Surely more uninformed opinions is not helpful in establishing orthodoxy*?
Certainly mutual encouragement among the brethren is profitable and Biblical, but I've never known a small group with that as it's sole purpose?
My thoughts exactly! In my championing of small groups, I certainly don't have in mind a weekly Bible study. IMO that can lead to a primarily intellectual focus that doesn't penetrate to our spiritual core, and leaves us untransformed.
Fellowship should be where it's at, IMO; by which I mean deep friendship in which people gradually share their more intimate hopes, fears and worries, and where permission is given to challenge one another to live a life more devoted to and honouring of God. Bible studies can very easily lead to intellectual discussions behind which people can hide their true selves, destroying the opportunity for openness and life-changing friendship.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I disagree. Service to God isn't only good works. Service to God includes feeding the sheep as well as tending them. Prayer, worship, Bible study, discussion, wrestling with the difficult issues, and facilitating all of these are included in loving God with all of our hearts, souls, and minds, as well as strength.
I disagree on a number of levels; first it's not given to all to be teachers (feeding the sheep), and I think the sorts of churches in which small groups are pushed heavily are usually exactly the sort where random members of congregation don't really have the resources to teach at this level. Similarly quite often the reason bible studying is being 'pushed down' to the small group level is because of the paucity of it being done at the regular services.
The sorts of churches which do are the well-catchecised ones (either formally or informally) and these are the ones least likely to set up things based on the small group model.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
In my experience, poor catechesis is common right across the board - in evangelical churches which use some form of small-group model and in more sacramental churches that don't.
Arguably, some of the more Reformed churches, with their emphasis on preaching and teaching, are less prone to the development of nut-flavoured ideas and overly subjective approaches ... but the downside there is that they can - as SCK identifies - become rather dry and arid intellectual 'preaching centres'.
I can think of some conservative evangelical and reformed-flavoured churches which are effectively little more than Bible-study clubs where it's difficult to fit in unless you're proof-texting and citing chapter and verse all the time.
There's a balance somewhere.
I agree with SCK that small groups can be useful and helpful - I'm not denying that - and I think he's right to sound a note of caution about over-intellectualised Bible study groups.
I know I've banged the gong a few times for the RC lectio-divina approach but what's impressed me about the local RC women who meet regularly to follow that format is that none of them are intellectual and the notes and format allow for people to engage at various levels. It ain't meaty theology in the RC diocesan notes that accompany the lectionary readings they use but neither is it dumbed-down pietistic subjectivism which is what passes for Bible study in some charismatic evangelical circles.
I think it strikes the right balance and I'd certainly commend it as a model that could be used elsewhere, not just in RC circles.
What worries me with the small group model in evangelical charismatic circles is precisely the point that Chris Stiles makes - that the teaching and pastoral roles are being delegated to people who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near it ...
Anyone who shows a mite of enthusiasm or aptitude can be given a platform in many evangelical/charismatic churches and whilst this can be empowering in a lot of ways it also opens the way up for overly subjective approaches.
At least with the local RC ladies they're using material that has the imprimatur of suitably qualified clergy at a diocesan level. Even if one takes a Proddy or Orthodox exception to particular points of RC doctrine, at least these ladies are well catechised in the basics of historic creedal Christianity.
You can't take that for granted, I've found, in charismatic evangelical circles for all their protestations to the contrary.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I love compline but it would appear - and Shippies will correct me if I'm wrong - only to 'work' on a regular basis in residential or collegial communities of one form or other. I did some work recently for an international postgraduate residence in London and they had compline on a Monday evening in the chapel there.
I've not heard of it happening that successfully in a parish context.
And for all the wonder and beauty of it, I'm not sure that in and of itself it contributes to the development of small groups in the way we've been discussing here. You don't necessarily have to stick around to talk, have a cuppa etc after compline.
My church has regular food and film nights that end with sung Compline.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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moonlitdoor
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# 11707
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Posted
We didn't have teachers as such in the groups I was in, we just shared our own thoughts. Indeed there was no guarantee that none of us had any funny ideas, but the same thing is true of reading people's opinions on the internet. I don't see Gamaliel advising people not to read any of the discussions here that might contsin unorthodox contributions.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
We didn't have teachers as such in the groups I was in, we just shared our own thoughts. Indeed there was no guarantee that none of us had any funny ideas, but the same thing is true of reading people's opinions on the internet. I don't see Gamaliel advising people not to read any of the discussions here that might contsin unorthodox contributions.
Small groups can provide an avenue for people to teach unorthodox views, but I think the risk is quite low unless the group leaders are seen as the experts who provide most of the input.
If, instead, a small group has the ethos of encouraging all the group members to search the Bible and engage with God themselves, then ISTM the risk of wild flights of theological fancy are much reduced. And anyway, there are far worse things that can befall Christians than holding a few unorthodox beliefs; things like greed, pride, anger, jealousy...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
No, because this is an online discussion forum not a church house-group or cell-group or whatever you want to call it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there should be a 'belief-police' presence at all gatherings, but what I would suggest is that a small group that gets together simply to share the individuals' top-of-the-head thoughts might be fun and might achieve something but is more likely, in my view, to come up with cranky ideas than something which is rather more regulated.
There is a reason, for instance, why the Orthodox all sing off the same hymn sheet, as it were, by using the same Liturgy the whole world over. It was to ensure, you've guessed it, Orthodoxy. The Orthodox Liturgy is essentially Orthodox belief laid out in liturgical form - lex orandi, lex credendi.
It used to be the same for the RCs and for the Anglicans to a certain extent. You can't guarantee that now, of course.
That's not to say that I'm arguing for an overly prescriptive format for all small groups and informal discussions and so on ... far from it.
But when a lady from our local charismatic evangelical parish attended the lectio-divina sessions during Lent one year, it was no prizes for guessing who was coming out with the flakey stuff and the subjective gubbings ...
I'll give you a clue.
It wasn't the RC ladies ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Nonsense, SCK ... you give people a Bible and simply let them get on with it and you'll see what they come up with. It won't necessarily be anything thee or me recognise as 'orthodox'.
The risk isn't quite low at all, it's completely the opposite.
We interpret the scriptures within the context and confines of whatever tradition we happen to represent or be familiar with.
Put a bunch of people in a room with a Bible and they'll either default to the received tradition they've ... well, received ... or else they'll develop their own ideas which may or may not be congruent with received wisdom and orthodoxy.
You have an overly optimistic view of people's discernment and bullshit-detector mechanisms, my friend ...
The reason this RC group I'm mentioning stays on track is precisely because the study notes are prepared and endorsed by appropriately trained and authorised personnel at the Diocesan level.
Otherwise it would be rubbish in/rubbish out.
You look at what happens in China and Africa and other places where wild flights of theological fancy are allowed to take wing ...
A lot of the Chinese house-churches would be considered completely heretical by any Western standards - RC, Orthodox or Protestant.
And yes, I'm not saying that orthodox beliefs in and of themselves are any safeguard against the besetting sins of jealousy, pride, the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life and so on ...
Of course not.
But unless I'm a DIY expert I'm not going to do up my house, nor am I going to interfere with my domestic electricity supply unless I know something about electrics.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Nah. I don't buy that. Some of the most uniform and prescriptive groups doctrinally have little liturgy. The Orthodox and RC uniformity of liturgy may reflect uniformity of belief, but I don't think it's what maintains it.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You have an overly optimistic view of people's discernment and bullshit-detector mechanisms, my friend ...
No, I have an optimistic view (whether overly or not, I'll let others decide) of God's willingness to communicate directly with people and of our ability to discern when He's in fact doing so.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You look at what happens in China and Africa and other places where wild flights of theological fancy are allowed to take wing ...
A lot of the Chinese house-churches would be considered completely heretical by any Western standards - RC, Orthodox or Protestant.
And yet Christianity in China flourished under the persecution of Mao's regime, when (so I've read) the missionaries returning after Mao's death expected to find very few Christians and churches. If wild flights of theological fancy are a necessary risk for such flourishing under persecution (because you can't have organised institutional structures), well that's a risk I'm content with.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
In my championing of small groups, I certainly don't have in mind a weekly Bible study. IMO that can lead to a primarily intellectual focus that doesn't penetrate to our spiritual core, and leaves us untransformed.
<snip>
Bible studies can very easily lead to intellectual discussions behind which people can hide their true selves, destroying the opportunity for openness and life-changing friendship.
They can, but they don't have to. Over the years I have participated in Bible studies where people tell of their successes and failures at following various Bible principles. I have gotten to know these people quite well.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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