Ship of Fools: Discernment, Intuition, Delusion, Paranoia

Thread: Discernment, Intuition, Delusion, Paranoia - lines between? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

People commonly talk about discerning the will of God, trying to understand what plans God might have for their lives, that, if they follow them, things will be better in some way, for their lives, their rightness with God etc.

At what point does that discernment become an intuitive process of putting together thoughts, feeling and little bits of occurrence that are interpreted as data? Further, at what point does the intuition become downright delusional and unshared reality, a creation of the deluded?

Paranoia as I understand it, is the creation within a person's mind of a delusion system, where delusion becomes the full world in which the person lives. This is clear mental illness when defined like this in my perception. There's a version of paranoia that involves ideas of persecution: "someone is following me around and messing with my thoughts, telling me what to do". The odd thing is that it is almost easier to interpret God as the "someone" in this extreme end of the continuum, versus the individual themselves as the deluded and the intuiting person.

The above is stimulated by, this morning, talking to someone about their belief that God was instructing them to do things, and direct harm to another person by their God-suggested action.

Have you thoughts about the continuum of knowledge of God? How do we tell apart the individual's mental process with something divine? When does it become pathology and nutty? I'm thinking consensually defined reality is a start.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Hmmm ...

I s'pose the danger kicks in when we consider that we ourselves and whatever cause we espouse are at the centre of God's attention.

The old Cromwell thing, 'God made them as stubble to our swords ...'

[Help]

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

Those who think that God doesn't exist seem to assume that those who do discern and follow the guidance and/or calling of God have created it from their own imaginations. Some are kinder than others, but the implication often falls that some kind of mental illness is implicated.

I do understand that there are many people with mental illnesses, some criminals, who claim to have been told to act by voices in their heads or by God.

I know both from personal experience and from that related by others that God does both guide and call us into service, if we are willing.

I very much dislike the idea that God plans people's lives and that if they follow God's will, they will prosper in the world. It doesn't work like that, as is obvious when we read the New Testament.

The discernment process is imperative, to ensure that what we think God is saying isn't simply intuition or the product of a creative imagination. One principle is that God will not ask us to do anything which will cause our transgression against the ten commandments written in stone, or against the qualities of the spirit that we are expected to foster as fruit. Another is that God will confirm his requests using a different method, usually through another person who knows nothing of it.

If we look for confirmation, we won't find it. It will come in God's time and in God's way. We have no control or input, other than prayer asking for confirmation and acceptance when it arrives. Even then, we may make a further request if unsure. God is patient, as God wants us to be patient.

We may refuse God's invitation at any time.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Hmmm ...

I s'pose the danger kicks in when we consider that we ourselves and whatever cause we espouse are at the centre of God's attention.

The old Cromwell thing, 'God made them as stubble to our swords ...'

I'm thinking you're on a good plane of existence Gamaliel. Another good phrase: "the danger kicks in when we consider that we ourselves and whatever cause we espouse are at the centre of God's attention."

Of course how do we tell when it's God and when it is us? (Makes me wonder again about Paul, tangentially)

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

To me it's like the idea that everyone has a "soulmate". Just one? What if that person lives three thousand miles away? Are we doomed to solitude or second rate relationships? Uh, no.

I doubt that God has just one plan for each of our lives. The way things tend to go in life most of us would probably be abject failures. To my way of thinking the best I can do is pray, check my plans against how I understand Christ's intentions for me from scripture, Christian tradition, and intuition, and then go for it. If the plans fail, IMO it is not because I went against the Godhead's plans for me. I believe that we can learn and grow by both successes and failures, and that Christ actually likes that. It probably makes him nostalgic. [Tear]

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

I kind of think of God as the ultimate chess player - he always has a plan, and a plan for if I do something that derails that plan, and a plan for when I muck that up to. God calls me constantly; occasionally I listen. Even more occasionally I understand and try to act on that call. And then I muck up again.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I kind of think of God as the ultimate chess player - he always has a plan, and a plan for if I do something that derails that plan, and a plan for when I muck that up to. God calls me constantly; occasionally I listen. Even more occasionally I understand and try to act on that call. And then I muck up again.

That's my experience as well. Only with rather more of the mucking up.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Love doesn't micromanage. Doesn't even intervene. It attracts. Thought, feelings (which are compressed thoughts). It attracts us and we are attracted to it, directly and through each other.

There's nothing else.

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Those who think that God doesn't exist seem to assume that those who do discern and follow the guidance and/or calling of God have created it from their own imaginations. Some are kinder than others, but the implication often falls that some kind of mental illness is implicated.

I don't consider mental differences to necessarily illnesses. I don't believe in God, is that a mental illness? Believers sometimes seem a bit delusional about non-believers.

We all perceive the world in different ways. I tend to judge what is delusional by what it does to the person who holds the delusion. If your beliefs add value to the lives of you, your friends and your community, they aren't delusional. They may be false but so may everyone else's.

I guess my delusion is that how you treat other people is more important than what you believe. And that that isn't a delusion.

quote:
from Martin PC
feelings (which are compressed thoughts)

I'd say "feelings and thoughts (which are rationalisations of our feelings)". Surely the love comes first and then we try to explain it to ourselves?

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
I tend to judge what is delusional by what it does to the person who holds the delusion. If your beliefs add value to the lives of you, your friends and your community, they aren't delusional.

I think there's a lot to this. To my mind, it gets tricky when we recognize that we need to go beyond what is good for us. There is a "meta" good in which we recognize that it isn't all about us which is extremely important -- or so ISTM. How we can stay on-track when we walk the line between self interest and pursuing an interest that is larger than oneself seems to be where the real reptiles lie in wait.

--Tom Clune

[ 13. July 2013, 11:52: Message edited by: tclune ]

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
To my mind, it gets tricky when we recognize that we need to go beyond what is good for us. There is a "meta" good in which we recognize that it isn't all about us which is extremely important -- or so ISTM. How we can stay on-track when we walk the line between self interest and pursuing an interest that is larger than oneself seems to be where the real reptiles lie in wait.

Agreed, and the delusion can be that you are are doing the right thing for others when you are really (also) doing it for yourself. I have some friends who are trying to help someone but the help they propose will help them as much as him. Have they really considered all options I wonder?

The Greeks were much better on this in their plays than their philosophers seem to have been. Sophocles' Antigone, for example, where her family duty to bury her brother (a traitor) conflicts with her father-in-law, Creon - the city's ruler - who insists the laws are adhered to. It all ends badly and we are left to wonder if there is always a 'right' answer.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

With my spiritual director hat on Id say that discernment needs us to learn to be still until all the conflicting voices in our head die away and we discover, in the words of the Spice Girls, what we 'really, really want'. and what leads us to living life more abundantly, for freed to be the selves that God made us.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

Discernment? Delusion? I wonder whether 'misinterpretation' might be a better word. Misinterpretation of one's own ability to find a solution to a problem as coming from God. I'd say the same misinterpretation occurs whichever god is believed in.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

As someone who is mentally ill, let me say that consensus is a great way to go.

I know some people take opposition as an affirmation - as if the devil is working against them (and therefore it must be God's will). But if you believe something's God's will but everyone in your faith community seems (to you) to be blocking it, then that puts you in a position of saying the devil is using people in your faith community, which, to say the least, is a very disturbing view of God, ultimately - that people called by God, and seeking to serve God, can be so easily conscripted into the devil's service. (One might follow one's own logic and question whether it's the devil motivating him or her!)

Prayerful consensus really is the way to go. Sometimes there will still be hurdles and disagreements, but you have to trust that if God is in something, it will succeed.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Discernment? Delusion? I wonder whether 'misinterpretation' might be a better word. Misinterpretation of one's own ability to find a solution to a problem as coming from God. I'd say the same misinterpretation occurs whichever god is believed in.

Not sure what you are saying and whether what you are saying is aimed at me.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

I suspect we're both right que sais-je. Hopefully from different directions. I fully agree that we make up stories to explain our feelings which may not have a compressed inner narrative. We find reasons to be anxious, depressed, elated when these are habits and/or chemical imbalances. But also there may be a metanarrative of early experience, of trauma, neglect, failure of attachment, adaptation.

And both.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Discernment? Delusion? I wonder whether 'misinterpretation' might be a better word. Misinterpretation of one's own ability to find a solution to a problem as coming from God. I'd say the same misinterpretation occurs whichever god is believed in.
Not sure what you are saying and whether what you are saying is aimed at me.

No, not aimed at you; it was a sort of general comment. I thought I'd better leave it as a general thing, rather than mentioning there's no god whose thoughts can be discerned anyway and then it being pointed out that I've probably said that before!!
[Smile]

[ 14. July 2013, 09:03: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Oh - right - but if no God, meditation can still help people to know their own mind better.

Posted by Crazy Cat Lady (# 17616) on :

I think people here are underestimating the nature of delusion. This is not some casual opinion you may hold - it grips your entire reality and it is blindingly obvious that something is wrong. Furthermore, those who have reached this level of illness generally tend to be on wards rather than in the community

I can say all this because I do experience delusion and clinical (NB not social) paranoia.

Posted by markporter (# 4276) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
No, not aimed at you; it was a sort of general comment. I thought I'd better leave it as a general thing, rather than mentioning there's no god whose thoughts can be discerned anyway and then it being pointed out that I've probably said that before!!

This seems like slightly circular logic to me. Wouldn't it be better to insist that there might be certain kinds of communication that might provide evidence that they were indeed from God, but that you haven't come across any that you find convincing rather than rule them out in advance?

I suppose it depends what your atheism is based on.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Crazy Cat Lady [Votive]

You are a very cool cat indeed. I'm everything but delusional and 'mildly' at that apparently. I was talking with my darling daughter this evening. She's between the two of us. If only my beloved vicar, in to who's eyes I looked at the communion rail this evening, acknowledged that some stones can never be thrown away, not in this life.

And that's OK.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by markporter:

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
No, not aimed at you; it was a sort of general comment. I thought I'd better leave it as a general thing, rather than mentioning there's no god whose thoughts can be discerned anyway and then it being pointed out that I've probably said that before!!

This seems like slightly circular logic to me. Wouldn't it be better to insist that there might be certain kinds of communication that might provide evidence that they were indeed from God, but that you haven't come across any that you find convincing rather than rule them out in advance?

I certainly haven't ruled them out in advance, as I have always been very interested in the subject(as well as all things under the general label of woo!), but I have always also searched for the arguments against. I cannot think of any occasion in my life or in what others have said has occurred in theirs that must be insisted on as being from God rather than not. When I was young, there was no-one who had non-God views, however cool, middle-of-the-road these might have been. The likelihood of Godd/god/s reached, for me, vanishing point quite a long while ago , but I really do still enjoy reading and joining in these discussions.

quote:
I suppose it depends what your atheism is based on.

On a lifetime of reading all I could find on Library shelves, discussing with many on both sides of the question, the early TV programmes showing for instance time-lapse film of the natural world, and probably my genetic, critical thinker type make-up!

And then, of course, there's the huge question of why Christians believe their idea of God is the only right one and not any of the others. How do they discern that? And the answer is - from what other people have said and taught, from a book , etc, but then that applies to other religions too; and that's almost certainly off topic here.

Posted by markporter (# 4276) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I certainly haven't ruled them out in advance, as I have always been very interested in the subject(as well as all things under the general label of woo!), but I have always also searched for the arguments against. I cannot think of any occasion in my life or in what others have said has occurred in theirs that must be insisted on as being from God rather than not. When I was young, there was no-one who had non-God views, however cool, middle-of-the-road these might have been. The likelihood of Godd/god/s reached, for me, vanishing point quite a long while ago, but I really do still enjoy reading and joining in these discussions.

Ok, so if we relate that back to the topic of discernment, for you it is a matter of
a) Doing it in a much broader context so that it's never simply a matter of an individual event on its own, but of how it is related to everything else you see going on in the world
b) Doing so within a skeptical mindset which distrusts positive claims and prefers to assume it's more likely that nothing is going on

Am I summarising correctly?

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by markporter:
Ok, so if we relate that back to the topic of discernment, for you it is a matter of
a) Doing it in a much broader context so that it's never simply a matter of an individual event on its own, but of how it is related to everything else you see going on in the world ...[QB]

Yes, I think that's right. I do wonder how those who do not include what is happening in the rest of the world can believe that their conclusions about God (the divinity of Christ, etc) are better than guesswork, since the world we both live in runs the same way with or without the belief?

quote:
[QB]b) Doing so within a skeptical mindset which distrusts positive claims and prefers to assume it's more likely that nothing is going on

Yes, definitely a sceptical mind! I would not use the word 'distrust' because that seems to imply simply a negative view, whereas I really have looked at both sides of the faith/belief questions and find the non-God ones fa more trustworthy.

quote:
Am I summarising correctly?

Yes, I think so! [Smile]

[ 16. July 2013, 06:00: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]

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