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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Unpaid church workers
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geroff
Shipmate
# 3882
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Posted
I have just read this Article - Church Interns:a new injustice which is written by someone who was paid nothing by a rich church as a worker.
This is really some thing to be discussed beyond the pages of the Church Times in terms of the church giving a good example rather than joining in with the general use of unpaid 'volunteers' by Profesions, Members of Parliament etc. Perhaps someone more qualified than me can comment on the law and the minimum wage.
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"The first principle in science is to invent something nice to look at and then decide what it can do." Rowland Emett 1906-1990
Posts: 1172 | From: Montgomeryshire, Wales | Registered: Jan 2003
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
What puzzles me is that surely in most circumstances like these the church would ask someone in the congregation with a spare room to provide accommodation? Am I being naïve?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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geroff
Shipmate
# 3882
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Posted
A few years ago we were asked whether we would support having a full time youth worker and we said only if they had a proper contract, a working agreement and a wage. This was indeed done and we got a qualified worker who could get on with doing her job. Spare rooms aren't the issue - paying and treating people well is.
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"The first principle in science is to invent something nice to look at and then decide what it can do." Rowland Emett 1906-1990
Posts: 1172 | From: Montgomeryshire, Wales | Registered: Jan 2003
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I saw that article. It struck me that this is the church abusing people again, something that, IME, it is very good at doing.
So yes it was a sad story, but I was also not surprised.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
The Church relies on unpaid (Non Stipendiary & retired) Ministers, Readers and other lay preachers,wardens, musicians, furniture movers, fund-raisers and crèche helpers. There are people who do maintenance, cook, write, keep the books, administrate and do other tasks on an unpaid basis. Missionaries are often self supported and some churches don't have a paid leader at all. You name it and it is probably being done for love somewhere. I don't think there is much of a difference between taking a year out to learn on the job and these other roles.
We get so used to the voluntary system that they tend to get taken for granted. I think that is what has gone wrong in this story. It is proper to reimburse expenses for voluntary activity for those on low/ no wages. A church with an intern does need to ensure they have food, shelter and clothing somehow (but most of already have enough clothes to keep us going for a year at least) and a few of the other necessities of life. Remember that apprenticeships are paid at way below the minimum wage too.
Volunteers should be asked, not ordered to do jobs. This needs to be hammered out in the placement agreement. Yet there needs to be a balance between personal freedom and commitment to make these things work.
I think there is an element of whining in the article. This is an issue that a prospective intern should consider before signing up. Volunteering is a gift of time. If it is given in bad grace then maybe it is better not to give it at all.
I think interns like other volunteers can do a vitally important job for the Church. To be realistic, most of the Church could no afford to much of the work it does if it had to be pay a salary or contractor to do it. These placements might not exists at all.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Go make tents.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
I write as someone who served a church for 15 years as church librarian, unpaid . I think that serving a church in an unpaid form is a way to give back. Now if you are talking about a secatary, or clergy roles well that is an horse of another color. These people have skills some of the rest of us don't have .
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
My benefice has proper contracts for paid and unpaid workers.
Although I am a volunteer and love what i do, I have a contract with the diocese and can avoid being exploited - or under-used for that mater.
What shocked me most about the article was that people think that church work will count as experience when they are looking for secular jobs - and it doesn't - so they've been conned.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
FWIW in the early 90s I did a year as a lay pastoral assistant in a suburban church near London. I got £25 a week in cash but I had very comforteable free digs, with the run of my teeth, and transport (a moped) with as much fuel as I wanted for work and non-work use. At the age of 24, single with no dependants, I thought that was a pretty good deal, and I still do.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
I'm sorry, Albertus, but what does 'with the run of my teeth' mean?
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
Agreed - when I've been at churches with interns, the "job" included accommodation and training paid for by the church - often food too if they were lodging with members of the congregation, or with church staff.
What this person is writing about seems to be the dodgy end of the "market".
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I am not naming names but I know of a Christian charity where the workers fund themselves.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
It seems one can simply choose not to do work for the church, if one is so inclined.
I'm not sure how things work in the UK, but to become a teacher in the US, a person must spend the better part of a year as an unpaid intern. Not only that, but they must pay university tuition to earn the credits for doing so. It's part of the job. Either you do it, or you major in something else.
[ 14. July 2013, 16:39: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Ahleal V
Shipmate
# 8404
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Posted
In the discernment process for the CoE there is a huge amount of pressure placed on people - generally new graduates, but often people in their late 20s and even older - to serve as parish assistants. As an above commentator said, if the CoE decides that it doesn't want you, you have a rather odd year on your CV that secular employers will either disregard, or in the worst case, hold against you.
Whilst it gives you hands on experience of parish life - and the North London one is brilliantly run - I think it's far, far more worthwhile to have people in a job, running a home, dealing with the stress and strain of the 'real world.'
x
AV
Posts: 499 | From: English Spires | Registered: Aug 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
I'm sorry, Albertus, but what does 'with the run of my teeth' mean?
M.
Oh, sorry: as much food as I could eat!
Yes, I was struck by the difference between the experience of the intern in this article, and my experience 20 years ago. I didn't have much actual cash but I had everything that I could possibly need: a perfectly adequate stipend, if you like, albeit one largely in kind. This intern appears to have been taken advantage of and if that is so it is very wrong.
My year as a parish assistant, by the way, led me to another, reasonably successful, career (not in ministry) through spending, as apart of it, a day a week in a homelessness project, where I then got a job.
[ 14. July 2013, 18:24: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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geroff
Shipmate
# 3882
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
Agreed - when I've been at churches with interns, the "job" included accommodation and training paid for by the church - often food too if they were lodging with members of the congregation, or with church staff.
What this person is writing about seems to be the dodgy end of the "market".
But why should the church be at the dodgy end of the market?
The term intern is not recognised by the government in the UK. This website gives some interesting insights into what a worker and a volunteer is.
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"The first principle in science is to invent something nice to look at and then decide what it can do." Rowland Emett 1906-1990
Posts: 1172 | From: Montgomeryshire, Wales | Registered: Jan 2003
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
From the above website:
quote:
Voluntary workers
Workers aren’t entitled to the minimum wage if both of the following apply:
they’re working for a charity, voluntary organisation, associated fund raising body or a statutory body
they don’t get paid, except for limited benefits (eg reasonable travel or lunch expenses)
So it looks like the alleged church in question in this territory.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
ISTM that the Church as a whole is of two minds on this -- on the one hand, we do not want the "professionals" to dictate to the rest of us, and on the other hand, we don't want to do ourselves the work that we need done. Interns just seem like a natural outgrowth of this waffling.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
If churches don't want to use interns (and I agree there are ethical issues with doing so) then ISTM they can either scale back what they do so it's less labour-intensive, divert funds from other purposes (such as supporting overseas missionaries), or somehow get more of the congregation involved in making it all happen.
I'd favour the last option, and how my church is making this option work is by (a) setting up most the voluntary roles so they aren't a huge commitment, and (b) giving a lot of responsibility to each home group, thus spreading the workload around.
So we have four or five people on a rota to oversee all the setting up chairs, information tables, sound equipment, another dozen or so people who support the clients at our debt counselling centre etc. etc. Most people in the church are involved in something or other, I guess because it's just become part of our culture.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
The point is that unpaid interns are a part of the rather abusive working environment we have in the capitalist society today. It is people doing work for little or no money, doing work that people should probably get paid to do.
Yes the church would not cope without voluntary workers. But that does not mean that they should follow the abusive work practices of other places. They should be better.
Many clergy are expected to work some 80 hours a week, and being available 24/7. That is also abusive, actually. On the whole they know what they are getting into - although an increasing number do not, and give up.
It just seems that the church is increasingly promoting these sort of abusive working arrangements. And yes, if you cannot pay people to do the work, do less of it. Surely that is better than abusive work environments.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I have a problem with this in the article: "What had originally been designated as prayer mornings ended up as snatches of time between our exhausting schedules (it is an unspoken requirement of interns that they may not turn down any call for assistance, on any rota). Here, we bemoaned our lack of rest, lack of mentoring, ..."
Either the position was falsely described, or the intern went into it with mistaken expectations of "morning prayers" etc.
Nothing unusual about a volunteer job being loaded with more and more work, but no such thing as a volunteer being obligated to say yes to everything anyone asks them to do! Sounds like interns were used as the lazy way to fill rotas. The intern - and some of those supposedly supportive church members - should have said "hey, there are reasonable limits!" at some point.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
There is a world of difference between being a pastoral assistant as part of C/E discernment process....and being an intern in some of our C/E churches right now.
Ancient practices when we would Give a Year to our church are also light years removed from the current experiences of many interns.
The article is long overdue and the churches in question know they are out of line. How? They've been told enough times!
Let me give you a few examples:
Regular days off? I wish it were true that days off were allowed to be regular. Split days off in some places are still expected.
Learning? Of late this has improved, but young people could go a year with no review and then get a rollicking at the end.
The expectation that money would be available to catch a bus/ pop out and get extra milk/ buy lunch while unexpectedly out/ etc, e flippin ct,
Accomodation in some places is great....in others it's appalling.
When matters go wrong, in some places there still appears to be no sensible way to resolve this.
Mentoring is hit and miss.
No I have not been an intern, but yes i do know people who either have been or still are interns. And tbh there have been times when i have wanted to go and bop some marvellous church leaders on the nose. They wouldn't treat their Curates or Readers like that and C's&R's have at least had training before they arrived. And if they did treat their C&R's like that, to be certain the Archdeacon might well come into the equation.
However, interns are out of that clergy safety net. Who is looking out for them? And who do they go to talk to? The Good schemes provide just such an impartial outside person and their conversations are confidential. Would that the writer of that article had been on such a scheme.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I guess it depends what is made by the term 'voluntary workers'. If you are fully involved with your church most of us will perform voluntary activities. However, if the job undertaken is one for which the minister is normally paid to do then that person should IMO be reimbursed. A case can also be made for paid cleaners and gardeners or any others involved in maintenance activities. In most professions pro bono work is frowned upon as it undercuts others in the profession.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
To point out the elephant in the room:
If we (the church) are to pay for more jobs to be done we are going to have to put our hands in our pockets and give more; possibly to the point of living in a hovel and having nothing left over for any luxuries.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by M.:
I'm sorry, Albertus, but what does 'with the run of my teeth' mean? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, sorry: as much food as I could eat!
Cheers! It's not an expression I've come across before. In fact, I wondered if it was a typo at first, but couldn't work out what that would be, either!
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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dv
Shipmate
# 15714
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Posted
Often struck by how many adverts in Church Times are for Non-Stipendiary Ministers, Self Supporting Ministers and House for Duty Priests. Surely this relies largely on early retired middle class folk on the (now moribund) generous occupational pensions of recent history ... or well-remunerated spouses effectively funding the other person's ministry?
Wonder whether the C of E has any planning in place for when this short window of final salary occupational pensions will end? Is this just a temporary shoring-up of a no-longer-viable parish system?
Posts: 70 | From: Lancs UK | Registered: Jun 2010
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dv:
Is this just a temporary shoring-up of a no-longer-viable parish system?
Well, something's got to change, seeing as attendance at and involvement with the C of E has been dropping. And things are changing - the points you mentioned, and also the system of benefices where one priest might cover, what is it, up to ten parishes? Maybe things can change back if the C of E starts to see numbers and level of involvement pick up again!
As I see it, all this shows how having individual churches as separate organisations (still with the denominational links if you want) can work quite well. If each individual church gets little or no regular financial support from the regional / national body then each church has to live within its means, only taking on new people and projects if the money is there to pay for them. ISTM this is a more sensible and sustainable way of working...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
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Posted
She says she was 'employed by a loving, well-to-do church'.
Isn't that the problem?
From the perspective of the church she was probably seen as a (willing) volunteer. From her perspective she was 'employed'.
I wonder if she ever raised the issue of having enough time off?
She chose to do this, and could have left if she had wanted to. As she doesn't say that she raised the issues and was ignored, it reads as if she never spoke to anyone in leadership about it and just moaned behind their backs.
I find it a bit difficult to get worked up about it. There are plenty of people who work long hours for cr*p money and don't have a way out.
Posts: 433 | Registered: Apr 2009
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
As I see it, all this shows how having individual churches as separate organisations (still with the denominational links if you want) can work quite well. If each individual church gets little or no regular financial support from the regional / national body then each church has to live within its means, only taking on new people and projects if the money is there to pay for them. ISTM this is a more sensible and sustainable way of working...
It’s what Baptists do – everything a church does is paid for out of the money that comes in each week. That’s everything, including the Minister. There are pros and cons for this. The saying goes that you need a membership of about 50 to support a full time minister – but that really depends on the financial resources and the generosity of those 50 people.
If your church is large and wealthy, you can have 3 – 4 ministers, lots of projects etc. Many churches in the middle manage a full time Minister, but less projects etc. There are also churches with congregations in single figures, who are extremely wealthy who’ve called a full time Minister. (Whether a church with a congregation of less than 10 needs a full time Minister is another discussion entirely. But I know of at least one).
But if your church is not quite big enough or wealthy enough to self fund then you can apply for a grant from central funds to pay a Minister’s stipend. Taking away that central funding entirely means that in many areas ministry will stop and those churches will close.
Sensible and sustainable?! Or reducing Ministry / Church to a commodity that’s only available to those able to pay for it.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by dv:
Is this just a temporary shoring-up of a no-longer-viable parish system?
As I see it, all this shows how having individual churches as separate organisations (still with the denominational links if you want) can work quite well. If each individual church gets little or no regular financial support from the regional / national body then each church has to live within its means, only taking on new people and projects if the money is there to pay for them. ISTM this is a more sensible and sustainable way of working...
Yeah, sure, why not? I mean, if people want a church they'll pay for it, and if they won't, or can't, then tough!
I know this isn't want you mean, but I'm sure you can see how easily we can get to that point if we go down this road. In fact, IIRC, what you suggest was more or less what the CofE did in the dear old days of Barchester (and indeed into I think the mid-C20 in places, although the some of the abuses were curbed in the C19), though the money came from local endowments rather than local giving. Result: great differences in stipends and wealth, with rich Archdeacon Grantly just up the road from impoverished Mr Quiverfull: pluralism to make ends meet, with curates on very low stipends to stretch ministerial cover; churches (and better quality clergy) where the money was rather than necessarily where they were needed.
Now, if you just see the church as a gathered local congregation, that last one needn't be too much of a problem- no need to be there for everyone, everywhere. But overstretched and overworked as the CofE parish clergy are, it's still a fundamental principle that wherever you are there is some one whose job, if need be, is as Francis Spufford puts it to give you a cup of weak tea and an inexpensive digestive biscuit and to stick with you for as long as it takes. Does the CofE always achieve this? No. Does the CofE on the whole try to achieve this? Yes: and IMO this is too valuable a service to give up if it can at all be avoided.
None of which, of course, means that it is right that interns should be exploited, any more than it was right that C18 and C19 curates were similarly excploited.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I should think that church organists are reading this thread with interest. They have traditionally been overworked and underpaid, too.
There is a world of difference between temporary and long-term employment. For example, there has long been an honoured tradition of gap-year students being youth workers or lay clerks. But all acknowledge this is only for one year, during which they are given board and lodging, plus a small amount of pocket money, rather than a salary. If this arrangement were to go on for many years, though, the question of exploitation would grow.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Haydee:
She says she was 'employed by a loving, well-to-do church'.
Isn't that the problem?
From the perspective of the church she was probably seen as a (willing) volunteer. From her perspective she was 'employed'.
I wonder if she ever raised the issue of having enough time off?
She chose to do this, and could have left if she had wanted to. As she doesn't say that she raised the issues and was ignored, it reads as if she never spoke to anyone in leadership about it and just moaned behind their backs.
I find it a bit difficult to get worked up about it. There are plenty of people who work long hours for cr*p money and don't have a way out.
It's possible that some of them will look back on this and realise they learnt some valuable life lessons during this time - how to get by on very little; how to read between the lines of a contract so you don't get stiffed; how to raise issues with management; fund raising; job skills; that Christains are no different from everyone apart from the faith in God thing etc.
It's wrong that some churches are exploiting young people, not paying them properly or treating them decently. But the writer of the article needs to wake up and smell the fair trade. There are thousands of people in crap jobs, struggling to get by on very little. Being part of a loving church congregation isn't a guarantee that you won't be one of them. In fact, most people in church jobs are badly paid. (I googled, if I wasn't working and we were living on Rev T's wages, we'd be entitled to tax credits. Which is nice).
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
The writer of that article was not "getting worked up". The writer was merely airring a much discussed, perfectly valid and sadly all too familiar grievance. Namely that when one accepts an internship at a (usually) lovely and well to do church, it is perfectly normal to expect the conditions agreed upon at interview to remain as stated.
Now. Of Course. There are going to be times when things change, life happens, days off have to be swopped, agreed roles are switched at the last minute. But when these things start happening All the Time....When these matters are raised and never acknowledged, much less resolved....Then what?
Young. Giving a year in service. Other people have raised money to enable this to happen. Even supporting financially for a year. What to do now?
Most young people chat among themselves first, they're uncertain. Then family find out. Friends get worried. Finally the young person goes and asks for a chat (as the regular monthly review that was promised has mysteriously never arrived)
In Good schemes, this chat is healthy,a designated person for such matters listens, has a chat with the incumbent and all is resolved.
In bad schemes....well the list is endless: emotional backmail, promises to change but nothing ever does, said young person is looked upon as a trouble maker and marginalised and even sometimes outright rudeness. Usually it's plain emotional manipulation though.
Most people at this point in a job would leave. Although lots don't. Usually employemnt law covers the worse excesses of employee/ employer problems.
In UK churches though, we have this strange animal called an Internship. It's neither fish nor fowl and in lots of cases there is no protection for either intern or church.
To almost call our current bad internships ok because lots of other people have crapawful jobs and put up with them..is somewhere short of helpful.
While to compare interns with NSMs SSMs or OLMs is to miss the point by a few miles. All those ..Ms have been prepared, selected, trained and have handy ..M support staff, Area Deans, Archdeacons to call in when the going gets tough. Interns are usually young, often just left home or uni, have no experience of the world and it's ways and don't want to loose face.
Internships offered by Anglican churches should be scrutiunised by diocesan staff and the heavies sent in at the first sign of unease. The writer is not overegging the cake.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I should think that church organists are reading this thread with interest. They have traditionally been overworked and underpaid, too.
There is a world of difference between temporary and long-term employment. For example, there has long been an honoured tradition of gap-year students being youth workers or lay clerks. But all acknowledge this is only for one year, during which they are given board and lodging, plus a small amount of pocket money, rather than a salary. If this arrangement were to go on for many years, though, the question of exploitation would grow.
The situation in the article cited, moreover, is objectionable precisely because the intern was not able to afford the basics of housing, food, and transportation. A year or two without much pay is fine if those things are covered.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But overstretched and overworked as the CofE parish clergy are, it's still a fundamental principle that wherever you are there is some one whose job, if need be, is as Francis Spufford puts it to give you a cup of weak tea and an inexpensive digestive biscuit and to stick with you for as long as it takes. Does the CofE always achieve this? No. Does the CofE on the whole try to achieve this? Yes: and IMO this is too valuable a service to give up if it can at all be avoided.
Yes, I see where you're coming from. Could it work voluntarily, though? So you have churches (I mean local congregations) that are distinct, independent bodies but they are encouraged to support one another informally, with wealthier churches giving financially, musically gifted churches encouraging their musicians to support or even move to churches with fewer musicians...
Anyhow, that's all veering off the point a bit so I'll stop there. I seem to keep starting tangents at the moment... ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
The writer of that article was not "getting worked up". The writer was merely airring a much discussed, perfectly valid and sadly all too familiar grievance. Namely that when one accepts an internship at a (usually) lovely and well to do church, it is perfectly normal to expect the conditions agreed upon at interview to remain as stated.
Now. Of Course. There are going to be times when things change, life happens, days off have to be swopped, agreed roles are switched at the last minute. But when these things start happening All the Time....When these matters are raised and never acknowledged, much less resolved....Then what?
Indeed. My point being that she doesn't appear to have raised the problem of excessive hours with the church leadership. Nor does the church appear to have backed out of any financial commitment.
If either of these did happen then yes, the church was in the wrong.
But it would seem that, apart from the extra hours, the church stuck to the original agreement. And she kept doing the extra hours and never told anyone (except the other interns) that it was a problem. I don't think we can expect the church leadership to be mind readers.
Posts: 433 | Registered: Apr 2009
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Haydee:
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
The writer of that article was not "getting worked up". The writer was merely airring a much discussed, perfectly valid and sadly all too familiar grievance. Namely that when one accepts an internship at a (usually) lovely and well to do church, it is perfectly normal to expect the conditions agreed upon at interview to remain as stated.
Now. Of Course. There are going to be times when things change, life happens, days off have to be swopped, agreed roles are switched at the last minute. But when these things start happening All the Time....When these matters are raised and never acknowledged, much less resolved....Then what?
Indeed. My point being that she doesn't appear to have raised the problem of excessive hours with the church leadership. Nor does the church appear to have backed out of any financial commitment.
If either of these did happen then yes, the church was in the wrong.
But it would seem that, apart from the extra hours, the church stuck to the original agreement. And she kept doing the extra hours and never told anyone (except the other interns) that it was a problem. I don't think we can expect the church leadership to be mind readers.
It sounds expectations on both sides are unrealistic in some cases. Churches don’t realise just how much it costs to have an Intern or the support that they need. Interns don't realise how big an adjustment it is from education to work or how much everything costs.
But no one’s going to know that unless the Intern or someone else tells them! Ideally church based intern schemes should be handled centrally and minimum terms and conditions set out to protect all parties – hours, days off, expenses, accommodation, pocket money etc. Plus an independent person, outside of the church, that you can speak to if there are issues so everyone can work together to resolve them.
My other point was that she was shocked that someone employed by a wealthy church could be in poverty … But what she was describing – not being able to afford food, worrying about rent, walking as you didn’t have the bus fare etc – is how many people in the UK live. Being part of a wealthy church does not guarantee that you’re not going to be one of them. She seemed to think it should. (My point that in the 7th richest country in the world, no one should live like seems to have got lost in transit!)
All credit to whoever wrote the article for a discussion starter – hopefully it’ll get a few people thinking.
South Coast Kevin wrote:
quote:
So you have churches (I mean local congregations) that are distinct, independent bodies but they are encouraged to support one another informally, with wealthier churches giving financially, musically gifted churches encouraging their musicians to support or even move to churches with fewer musicians...
That depends on the smaller church being willing to (and in many cases having) a larger, better resourced church near them to be able to approach for help. And for that larger, better resourced church being willing to share.
Tubbs
[ 16. July 2013, 12:06: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
But no one’s going to know that unless the Intern or someone else tells them! Ideally church based intern schemes should be handled centrally and minimum terms and conditions set out to protect all parties – hours, days off, expenses, accommodation, pocket money etc. Plus an independent person, outside of the church, that you can speak to if there are issues so everyone can work together to resolve them.
Ironically, the legal situation tends to mitigate against this. Churches are often wary of creating anything that looks like a contract lest it be deemed a contract of employment by HMRC later. So everything is often left unclear so as to underline the voluntary nature of the work.
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Ideally church based intern schemes should be handled centrally and minimum terms and conditions set out to protect all parties – hours, days off, expenses, accommodation, pocket money etc. Plus an independent person, outside of the church, that you can speak to if there are issues so
Which is exactly what my last church did when they a succession of interns through the "Time for God" scheme. Conditions were standardised, work agreed, external TFG staff were to hand, and three Conferences during the year provided training, time for reflection and a support network.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Haydee:
My point being that she doesn't appear to have raised the problem of excessive hours with the church leadership. Nor does the church appear to have backed out of any financial commitment.
Can be hard for a youngster to "confront" church leadership they have been taught to admire and/or trust and/or obey.
Can be hard to get church leadership to sit down with you if leadership has the slightest idea it won't be a happy chat. She mentions the disappeared mentoring - i.e. they weren't making it easy for interns to give feedback or raise concerns!
In my experience it's common not just in churches but for humans to know things aren't working out as planned (like, no mentoring is happening) and avoid facing it because then you (the leadership) would have to do something about it. Easier to just avoid any meeting where the topic could be raised because at the end of the year the interns will leave and the problem will just go away and you'll never have to deal with it.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Yeah, it's a bit harsh to expect interns (who are likely to be young adults) to have the courage and nous to challenge bad practice or unmet expectations. ISTM the responsibility has to lie primarily with the church leaders to make sure any issues and difficulties are dealt with.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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geroff
Shipmate
# 3882
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Posted
Surely it is imperative that churches have their tax affairs in order, especially with the present situation with large corporations and tax avoidance. Why are we so scared of doing things properly?
Posts: 1172 | From: Montgomeryshire, Wales | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
quote:
...in the 7th richest country in the world...
Noone would ever think it to listen to us...
I raised the subject of unrealistic expectations when our church was talking about employing a youth worker, pointing out that s/he would need preparation time for any youth activities as well as the time spent running the activities themselves.
It did not make me very popular, but it needed to be said.
[ 17. July 2013, 12:55: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Ironically, the legal situation tends to mitigate against this. Churches are often wary of creating anything that looks like a contract lest it be deemed a contract of employment by HMRC later.
Which kind of raises the question as to why the Church feels entitled to circumvent employment law ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Ironically, the legal situation tends to mitigate against this. Churches are often wary of creating anything that looks like a contract lest it be deemed a contract of employment by HMRC later.
Which kind of raises the question as to why the Church feels entitled to circumvent employment law ...
It's not just churches it's any voluntary organisation who uses volunteeers.
They are frightened of doing the wrong thing and finding they have unintentionally created a contract, that they do not have the capacity to fulfil.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Ironically, the legal situation tends to mitigate against this. Churches are often wary of creating anything that looks like a contract lest it be deemed a contract of employment by HMRC later.
Which kind of raises the question as to why the Church feels entitled to circumvent employment law ...
Well yes,although as another poster has said, you need to be able to so something about volunteers. But I agree, out church interns are paid a living wage for the time that they are working and that's the pattern I'd commend to anyone.
But where someone offers to work self funded, the law does stop the church even giving them a gift.
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Fair enough - my apologies, my comment wasn't intended as a dig at you personally.
I've caught myself thinking enough times something like 'X is going out of his way to help me, but he's a pillar of the Church and won't mind going the extra mile.' I have a dark suspicion that in certain churches this sort of attitude has become institutionalised ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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