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Some of the issues that troubled me were the frequent references to depression being either "a sin [because of not trusting God enough]" or something that one could overcome by "having faith"

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I have depression and it actually has quite a few physical things associated with it.

video

But, anyway, if my depression is because of a lack of faith, then I suppose only Satanists get cancer.
 

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Posted by Yam-pk (# 12791) on :
 
Maybe the person that summoned this particular pearl of wisdom suffers from mental health issues themselves, or just a lack of appreciation of fundamental Christian doctrines, i.e. grace
 

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Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :
 
There are certain allures for some people, I think. For one, of you don't suffer from, well, anything, it reinforces your sense that you're doing something right. Which, of course, must become troubling if you do develop any health issue.

It also fits in with rugged individualism - to think you don't need the help of others or of medicine or of therapists or whoever - just you and your faith (oh, and God).

I'm sure it also appeals to people who can't afford medical care, or who have tried everything else.

And once you get sucked in to something like that, the group mentality can be really powerful.
 

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Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by churchgeek:

It also fits in with rugged individualism - to think you don't need the help of others or of medicine or of therapists or whoever - just you and your faith (oh, and God).

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quote:

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Originally posted by churchgeek:

Also, if you don't suffer from, say, depression, and you're told depression is caused by listening to the devil's lies, then the affirmation you get - that you're resisting the devil's lies - can make you feel safe, as if you're not in danger of suffering such ills, because you're doing things right.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spiffy:

quote:

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Originally posted by churchgeek:

Also, if you don't suffer from, say, depression, and you're told depression is caused by listening to the devil's lies, then the affirmation you get - that you're resisting the devil's lies - can make you feel safe, as if you're not in danger of suffering such ills, because you're doing things right.

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Like Jenny Lawson always says, "Depression lies." I'm sure it might be comforting for some people to frame that as it's the Devil lying to you. But I think the danger is thinking that you can win this struggle on your own. Sometimes Christ's help comes in the form of a prescription.

Sometimes the lucky bastards who have never heard these lies whispered by their own brains make the same misteak Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar did and instead of providing company and support, open their damnfool mouths.

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Thanks, Spiffy. With a fair bit of family history of (manic-)depression, I always have a nod of familiarity at the passage from I Peter that begins the Compline broadcast from Seattle, where the Devil is likened to a predatory lion. One of the most demoralizing things about watching someone struggle with depression is that there's nothing I can do because their life may be going perfectly all right. There's nothing to be "fixed," but for some reason their brains are telling them otherwise - deceiving them, in fact.

I've struggled with the idea of a personal Satan, but growing up in a family with depression has given me glimmers of a Deceiver. Unfortunately it's all too easy to press on that verse too hard and end up blaming the victim.
 

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Posted by Highfive (# 12937) on :
 
I'm going through what I believe is General Anxiety Disorder for about a year, but I've nearly recovered. I figured I had it after I visited the beyondblue website. All I knew what that I'd been in a situation that was dreadful by orders of magnitude. The situation was resolved, but I found that I had completely lost my ability to care or be sensitive, to the extent that my own parents felt like complete strangers to me. The pastor I complained to chose his words carefully around me.

I'm 36 and this anxiety was completely out of the ordinary for me. I did feel like I was being deceived against at least attempting a recovery many times. But I knew my heart's anxiety gauge was stuck in the red, or recovering from a serious burn and it needed time to heal. I certainly felt that if I attempted a Spiritual Rush or try speaking in tongues, as my mother was suggesting, I might lose my ability to gauge my own recovery.

I went forward for prayer in a church once that I didn't realise was Pentecostal. I had to stop the guy who was privately praying for me until he was doing it in english. I want to laugh about that, but I vaguely understand his motives. Just not ready for that yet.

My concern is that turning over to powerful faith, and turning over while my head isn't on straight, may do more damage to the relationships I had with the people who are still talking to me. I've been recovering slightly faster when I'm around friends and I recover even quicker when I'm around Christians I can trust.

I definitely think that people with anxiety, at least, would benefit most from being able to stay inside a church where no-one is blaming them for their own condition.
 

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Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :
 
I am sorry for BB's experience . I topo am not a fan of being told to do whatever ?
As for depression being from satan ? That is stupid . Depression happens and can be dealt with.
Many palces that suggest yopu are responible for your own problems . Spare me . I am an epilectic and on medication I had some people tell me that as an act of faith abandon my medication. Not likely. Pastors need
to not pratice medicine , unless they are mds.
Blessings all PaulBC
 

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Posted by Haydee (# 14734) on :
 
Our congregation includes the parents of a girl who suffered severe brain damage after an accident. She needs on-going medical interventions to keep her well and out of pain - fortunately this is available. Her mother is convinced that if she (the mother) has 'enough' faith her child will be healed i.e. the mental and physical damage will be made good.

Our church (despite its many faults ) does not agree with this teaching, and the mother wants to move to a church which is more 'Biblical'. They remain because the father wants to stay in a church where they have many friends who will help out where they can.

I can understand wanting to do anything you can to help your child, and that hope can keep you going in providing 24 hour care. Sadly this 'hope' is making the mother angry and frustrated rather than peaceful
 

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
God forgive me but it's hard not to see churches like this as the yawning maws of the gates of Hell.

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If there is a Satan, these bastards are his minions.
 

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Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :
 
The blogger expressed surprise that such ignorant and abusive attitudes were present in such a young 'hip' church (described as 'the church for college kids'). As though being cool or young was a defense against stupidity and ignorantly damaging attitudes. But I wasn't surprised as to me, such a young church is usually prone to this stuff.

Its an expression of immaturity. Obviously any church can exhibit such rubbish in varying degrees, but could it be more likely or more undiluted in churches with a majority young contingent, or that has only recently started up?

A church needs wisdom to deal with minority people and situations, with illness, abuse, and with responding to positive criticism. Wisdom comes from mature Christians. Recent converts may have many excellent qualities (the blogger mentioned they have talent with worship music - which was evidently the most attractive aspect of church to her) but wisdom comes with maturity. And while not always, maturity usually comes with age and depth of experience.

In a church that doesn't have a strong and involved contingent of people from every age group, especially the over 50's, I would be very careful and keep my eyes open for the kind of attitudes expressed in the OP (among others).
 

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Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :
 


Oops, can a kindly host delete my second post please?

[Your wish is our command ! DT, Purgatory Host]

[ 09. August 2013, 09:38: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by would love to belong (# 16747) on :
 
Hawk, that is brilliantly expressed.
 

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Posted by Starbug (# 15917) on :
 
When I became a Christian, my family was extremely disfunctional. My mother had paranoid schizophrenia which was untreated for many years; the strain of living with her illness and abuse during my teenage years had given me an OCD style disorder. Looking back, I think I was depressed, too - at one point, I considered taking my mother's medication (which she wouldn't take herself).

When I tried to speak to friends at my church (it was an Evangelical Free Church) about the difficulties I was facing, they told me I was focusing on myself too much and I should go out and help someone else. Not knowing any better, I got a voluntary job and ended up feeling even more confused and depressed without knowing why.

It makes me very angry to thing back to their so-called advice because I was young, vulnerable and desparately in need of help myself.I had no resources to help anyone else. I ended up feeling very resentful and confused - if I was supposed to help others, why was no-one helping me? Why dididn't helping others make me feel better? Didn't I have enough faith?

Eventually, I saw a notice in our local Christian bookshop, advertising a free counselling service at a nearby Methodist Church. I went along and was counselled by a wonderful minister, who now sadly has Alzheimer's. I met some other people of my own age at the Methodist Church and became a member there. When I went to tell the minister of the Evangelical church that I was leaving, he asked me where I was going and why. He told me I shouldn't leave that church unless I was moving away from our town. He also told me that the Methodist Church was part of the Ecumenical movement, which would be judged by God for working with the Roman Catholics, thereby implying that I would go to hell for being a Methodist! He said all even though my counsellor had spoken to him (with my permission) and told him that I needed extra support.

What makes all of this worse is that the minister of the Evangelical church had previously had a breakdown and been in the local psychiatric hospital for a while, so he should have known better and so should his congregation.

There is a fascinating book called 'Why do Christians shoot their wounded?'by Dwight L Carlson, which investigates the harm done by churches that imply that mental illness is somehow the sufferer's fault. I've found it very helpful and recommend it for anyone in the same situation.
 

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Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
People seem to be engaging really well with this thread, in a positive and constructive way. But I will just say again, please think carefully before sharing sensitive and personal information - once it is online, it is very difficult to take back.
 

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Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :
 
Thanks for the warning Doublethink.

Might it be a good time to point people to the private board Waving not drowning for those who want help and support?
Thanks for your post Starbug. Yet another book to add to the reading list!
 

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Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Starbug:

What makes all of this worse is that the minister of the Evangelical church had previously had a breakdown and been in the local psychiatric hospital for a while, so he should have known better and so should his congregation.

There is a fascinating book called 'Why do Christians shoot their wounded?'by Dwight L Carlson, which investigates the harm done by churches that imply that mental illness is somehow the sufferer's fault. I've found it very helpful and recommend it for anyone in the same situation.

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Starbug - thank you for sharing your experience, As with the church leader in the opener it seems personal experience hasn't helped that minister understand this or themselves any better. Or maybe they were subjected to this teaching and somehow got through despite it, and accepted it as okay. Akin to 'a good beating with the cane at school didn't hurt me so lets keep it' arguments perhaps.

I don't know the book, but have looked it up and its reviews. It is sad that it has to be written to painstakingly argue that mental distress is a legitimate medical matter not just a quick repent and pray fix. Can you imagine a similar book on cancer or diabetes or... ?

And whilst spiritual wellbeing may have an impact on mental health, and indeed lifestyle choices, they also do in the development of physically expressed illnesses.

'Repent of your years of greed and eating the wrong things and God will end your heart disease/diabetes/ulcer'*

Nope not heard that one before, its medication all round for them.


* Not claiming direct links - though lifestyle factors have been implicated in all of these as potential contributing factors all cases are individual.
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
"Mental illness is caused by your being a bad Christian"

However this is expressed I think only Malcolm Tucker could have the words to describe this.

Firstly, it is poor science, poor medicine. Mental illnesses are not well understood, as a whole, but treatments are. None of the treatments involve "being a better Christian", and many of them work. "We don't fully understand something so it must be God/The Devil" is just so much crap.

Secondly, it is bad theology, because it fails utterly to understand the biblical material on suffering, and the Christian teaching on other people.

So if it is stunningly poor science and stunningly poor and abusive theology, what the fuck is anyone doing accepting it?
 

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Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :
 
SC as to why people buy into this stupidity ? Well in many churches the Pastor is seen as THE authority, if not the voice of God so one obeys or else. And I have been in that situation, caused several arguements with an ex girlfriend. It is also mega unhealthy es[pecially if the clergy type has issues himself.
And if I ever heard an rector of mine start spouting this stuff , well I would Erun not walk away , maybe even become a church of 1 . O.K. I know that would be rather useless but sometimes I wonder about the church. then i wake up and see it as a mix of many peoples and their make ups.
 

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Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
What a great thread. There is a narrative to it. A story. For me of course. Lurching postmodern as I am, I embrace all the metaphoric myths of the Bible more and more from that perspective. Including Satan and the demonic. With (more than) a side bet on their unknowable reality. Like God the Killer, I'm not really interested. I paradoxically more than suspect it's ALL our projection.

Hawk on immaturity. Excellent.

Schroedinger's cat: bad theology and science, like the poor we will always have them. In an immature congregation led by a projecting mentally ill 'pastor' in denial who has not embraced himself, cannot embrace himself, i.e. who has fundamentally, wired bad theology and science - there is no hope until he's gone.

And everyone else, Highfive, Avila, PaulBC, Starbug, would love to belong (but! ), everyone
 

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Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :
 
Whilst if you all take a look out of the other side of the bus...

Giles Fraser

Whilst there is something to be said about over medicalising normal emotions ... for the complete lack of understanding expressed that there is something called depression that is real and helped by the pills, and that just going for a walk and socialising more couldn't fix even if they were possible for someone in that depth

As I closed in my blog noting this and the junk in the opener -

But despite the pull yourself together, nothing is wrong on one side, and the pray and it will all go away on the other, in the middle are churches and Christians who care and love. Sometimes struggling and say or do the wrong thing but open to being helped to be better helpers. And in the middle there are people who live it, who know it, and between us and with God's help try to hold each other up
 

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Posted by Plique-à-jour (# 17717) on :
 
I hoped someone would have mentioned Fraser's piece.

It is deeply asinine.

To Fraser's way of thinking, it's important that poor people with depression don't get treatment because if they were happy they might not help bring forward the revolution.

This, and Will Self's similar piece in the Guardian Review last week, in which he asserted that psychiatric medication only works because of the placebo effect, seem expressive of the same kind of nostalgia for a certain conception of the self that you find in Peter Hitchens' denial of the existence of addiction.

[ 10. August 2013, 19:44: Message edited by: Plique-à-jour ]
 

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Posted by Yonatan (# 11091) on :
 
To be fair to Will Self, the placebo effect may well play a part in anti-depressant's effects. Some double blind random trials are subject to placebo washing which is when more people are used than needed in the trials and those which responded best to the placebo are not counted in the results - thus making the difference in efficacy between placebo and drug appear larger than it probably is in reality. This of course raises the question as to whether the drug is less effective than the company would like, or the placebo effect more powerful than usually imagined.
 

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Posted by Yonatan (# 11091) on :
 
There is quite a good reply in the New Statesman to Fraser here:

http://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/2013/08/depression-not-same-being-sad-giles-fraser

Most complaints on Twitter and indeed on the comments section on the Guardian site were around his perceived lack of distinction between 'sadness' and clinical depression. Giles Fraser later called this reading of the article 'weird'. I re-read the piece, but still think this criticism is very much justified.
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
There's a bit more to the anti-depressant story - the problems with the selective publication of research, with anti-depressants being named as drugs where this has happened is the theme of Bad Pharma - articles here or here or here
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
What is missing is that makes it look as if drug trials into depression are the only sort of drug trials that do not get published if there are no results.

This is not the case. The publication rate of clinical trials that do not have significant results is abysmal! This is as much true for your treatments of cancer as it is for depression and I do not see people querying whether cancer drugs should be given out.

To give you some idea of the debate and the literature on this then you can read this WHO paper.

This none reporting is a red herring as far as depression is concerned.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :
 
But there's surely something equally dismissive in saying, "Hey, you've got no social life, a meaningless job, nowhere to live, no financial resources to fall back on, and your health's shot, but if you just took the right pill..."
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
The Giles Fraser article conflated the problems with medicalising ADHD with depression. The first paragraph was all about the ADHD issues And there are real concerns that pills are being popped to control children who have far greater problems and keep them in school rather than dealing with the underlying issues.
 

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Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Garasu:
But there's surely something equally dismissive in saying, "Hey, you've got no social life, a meaningless job, nowhere to live, no financial resources to fall back on, and your health's shot, but if you just took the right pill..."

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
When investigating dodgy, simplistic and pseudo-spiritual answers to complex issues such as depression and the challenges faced by sex-abuse survivors, it pays to keep your eyes and ears open for any reference along the way to Jay Adams.

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quote:

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As I demonstrated above, Scripture calls depression a sinful choice rather than a disease. Because God gave us His Word to equip us for “every good work,” He has shown us in his word how to dig ourselves out of the sin of depression so that we might climb up into a life of joyful obedience.

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from the end of this


 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Yonatan:
Most complaints on Twitter and indeed on the comments section on the Guardian site were around his perceived lack of distinction between 'sadness' and clinical depression. Giles Fraser later called this reading of the article 'weird'. I re-read the piece, but still think this criticism is very much justified.

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