Ship of Fools: Deception at Cwmbran?

Thread: Deception at Cwmbran? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by sidefall (# 16394) on :

Hi,

There is a report that the healing which kicked off this supposed revival was fake.

See here

quote:
Paul Haynes was the man "healed" which prompted the start of the so-called "Welsh Outpouring" at Victory Church in Cwmbran. I can tell you that he had no need of the wheelchair on a permanent basis before the alleged "healing"! It seems to have been stage managed!

Also since the event, he has shown no sign of a real born again Christian experience, he still smokes as heavily as he did before his "healing", and the whole scenario seems a fiasco to me, and one not from our God and Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ!

I could be wrong, God forgive me if I am, but I believe the outpouring in Cwmbran is more from the enemy camp of Ephesians 6:11-12 than from the true King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and that there are many false and counterfeit signs taking place as prophesied in the Scriptures for the end times.

This is obviously unproven, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on :

Agreed on general principle, but I wouldn't base this just on the fact that the heathen apparently still smokes.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

Didn't we have a thread on this a few months ago?

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

The earlier thread was at Victory Church. AFAIK they are different*.

*I hesitate to say "not connected" because independent churches in South-East Wales are all connected like British blues-rock bands of the sixties and seventies.

Posted by sidefall (# 16394) on :

Hi, sorry for not being clear, yes, it is the same thing - the "Welsh Outpouring" at Victory Church, Cwmbran. Sorry for not tagging this on the end of the old thread, but that went quiet back in May.

It started in April with the supposed healing of Paul Haynes. If the report I quoted is true, then it was all built on a lie.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

Ah, I get it now, we have a Talywain & Pontypool church posting the Victory Church, Cwmbran story. My mistake, hope the link helps.

[ 12. August 2013, 12:27: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :

-Tangent-
"Pisgah Road"? That is bizarre--it's an odd name, and yet we have a Pisgah Church and cemetery not 5 miles from my house here in the Florida Big Bend!

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Are there good views from any of these Pisgahs?

[ 12. August 2013, 14:36: Message edited by: ken ]

Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :

Yes, we had a thread on this topic. It was immediately flagged as a con then (initiated by the discovery of plagiarism by a Shippie). Deception in Charismania? Surprise, surprise…

K.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

I don't know whether to be glad or disappointed to have been proved right. Lord have mercy on us.

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

Oh I get it!

The testimony of an anonymous source equals conclusive evidence, does it?

Good one.

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :

This source is not enough to prove deception - yet we are still waiting for the church to prove that it did happen, despite their apparent exhortations to get testimonies validated.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

Hang on a minute everyone .... yes there were reservations about the whole thing in the old thread and no, the plagiarism issue was never addressed (unless Eutychus knows any different).

But, now we have a report from a blog from a group with certain associations (PWMI) that has also raised a few eyebrows in the past especially for its dispensationalist views. The source if their report - an anonymous e mail whose i/d is not disclosed.

Now I have no reason to bang a drum for Victory Church and I remain a sceptic - despite the very real change I've seen in a guy from this area who went there for rehab and has been sorted out - but the actual evidence for deception is pretty slim (an anon e mail on a rarely read blog). What other evidence for deception might there be and perhaps Eutychus can say if his e mails about the plagiarism has been addressed or not.

[Shipmate outing redacted]

[ 13. August 2013, 08:28: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

Posted by chive (# 208) on :

I smoke and I haven't been healed. Does this prove evidence of anything?

Actually I find the discussion of smoking interesting. Many years ago as a student in my late teens I was having a smoke and chatting to a fellow student outside a youth meeting at church. He suddenly out of nowhere groped my boobs and tried to push me against the wall. I unhanded myself and asked him what the fuck he thought he was doing. His response - 'but it's ok, you smoke.'

Smoking is therefore the definitive dividing line that differentiates virgins from whores.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

EE is right that I was a bit quick off the mark on this thread as I haven't checked the source.

However, along with others I expressed the reservation on the other thread that there was no substantiation of the original testimony and no coverage I could find in the local press, and so far as I know there still is none (not that I've looked, I've had quite my fill of investigations for now [Biased]

).

I promised I would get back to you all if I got any teply to my letter about plagiarism. As you know, the blog got pulled sharpish but no explanation was forthcoming, at least none that I got.

One thing I am sure of: the kind of hyperdefensiveness exhibited by EE above is exactly the kind of thing that gives deceivers a free pass.

Posted by Darllenwr (# 14520) on :

As on the previous thread, I feel I have to remind all concerned, where is the first-hand information? We should all of us be wary of condemning what we have not seen for ourselves. When one of our Shipmates can report on Victory Church, Cwmbran, having attended a meeting, or meetings, in person, that will be the time to debate the validity of what is happening, and not before.

My vicar went to one of the meetings a couple of months ago and came away vaguely disappointed. His feeling was that good things are indeed happening there, but it is not the outpouring that everybody seems to be banging on about. He believes that this is yet to come, that Victory Church is just the foretaste, so to speak.

What he did not do was slate it in any way. My vicar, incidentally, is evangelical / charismatic, so this is nothing new to him.

In other words, think twice before you move to condemn - most of us have very little substantiable data to work from.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Someone from my church was supposed to be visiting during a holiday in the UK and I await reports.

The second thing that needs to be said, more generally, but to my mind really importantly, is that any genuine action of God that may be present, or positive fruit in certain individuals' lives, does not constitute a blanket endorsement of all the practices or a guarantee of the integrity of the ministry.

In recent months I have heard the argument "well God is blessing such-and-such a ministry so who are we to judge?" This is simplistic, naive, and irresponsible. I stand with Paul in Philippians when he rejoices in the gospel being preached irrespective of motives, but I also stand with Paul in various other epistles when he does not hesitate to warn against specific false teachers, pseudo-apostles and deceivers.

In other words, even if my church member comes back with a good report, it does not mean all concerns are invalidated.

[ 12. August 2013, 17:20: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
EE is right that I was a bit quick off the mark on this thread as I haven't checked the source.

However, along with others I expressed the reservation on the other thread that there was no substantiation of the original testimony and no coverage I could find in the local press, and so far as I know there still is none (not that I've looked, I've had quite my fill of investigations for now ).

I promised I would get back to you all if I got any teply to my letter about plagiarism. As you know, the blog got pulled sharpish but no explanation was forthcoming, at least none that I got.

One thing I am sure of: the kind of hyperdefensiveness exhibited by EE above is exactly the kind of thing that gives deceivers a free pass.

Eutychus, thanks. That puts it straight for me: either they think the plagiarism doesn't matter or they just don't care about it. Not a good witness.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

There is a Mystery Worshiper report on the church here

I want to be gracious but I still feel really uncomfortable about it all.

I just wish, as I've said on other threads, that we (the church) could get our public communication right as regards integrity and grace.

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :

I've taken an interest in this as I know the area a little (my father-in-law pastors a very starchy little Calvinist chapel in a town north of Cwmbran). I have no idea how 'authentic' the events in Cwmbran are, but I don't think I've come across an area of the UK more consistently impoverished and marginalised than post-industrial south-east Wales. The part my in-laws live in (Blaenau Gwent) tops every negative league table in the UK - one in six people are on anti-depressants. To me there's something appropriate about a God who often seems to chose to work through the weak and on the margins choosing Cwmbran as a place to do something special.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Yerevan. That is most poignant. And it's true. But not in any lying signs and wonders. It's true despite their utter absence. It's true that God is in my church, despite the utterly vacuous words of knowledge and other delusions. Like the delusion of Evangelical marriage mentioned elsewhere. God meets with us in our delusions. All of us. Carries us in them. Waits for them to pass. Even if that means we must. The deprivation of Cwmbran is nothing compared with the deprivation of Iraq or Ethiopia or South Africa or Mexico. Christendom is deprived by definition. May be in the millennium AFTER this one we'll let God address that through us. With no more deceit, dishonesty, delusion. No more lies. With truth, justice, mercy: righteousness. May be we'll actually hold ALL things in common and bear one another's burdens and then the end will come. But not yet.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

That was very well put. [Overused]

Posted by sidefall (# 16394) on :

Thought I should drop back in...

I agree completely that the fact the guy supposedly still smokes is largely irrelevant. But if God could heal him of whatever was supposedly keeping him in a wheelchair, it would seem reasonable that God could also heal him of addition to nicotine at the same time.

I'm fully aware that this is a single unattributed report. It is no more than hearsay and we don't know if it is true or not. But I would equally suggest that the claims of Victory Church and Richard Taylor are similarly unproven.

I'm also aware that this blog has been critical of the events in Cwmbran. I don't believe that the blogger would knowingly post false material, although it is possible he's been taken in by a deceiver.

My personal view, as someone with a long-standing interest in this subject, is that the report is almost certainly true, and I expect that further information will emerge in due course to confirm that this alleged miracle was nothing of the sort.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

sidefall - we know.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
sidefall - we know.

Do we?

Now we see as if in a glass darkly .... now we know in part .....

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sidefall:
My personal view, as someone with a long-standing interest in this subject, is that the report is almost certainly true, and I expect that further information will emerge in due course to confirm that this alleged miracle was nothing of the sort.

It's looking likely that this is the case. Taken in a broadest possible perspective, it all seems to be a hyped up version of the standard Pentecostal type approach. The hours' long worship services (as per the MW report) will produce ASC's (Altered States of Conciousness) which affect group behaviour: doesn't need much then to trigger responses.

Add to that the kind of work that Victory is involved in: they do a wonderful thing looking after and supporting those with homelessness or addiction problems. The typical person who comes to them will have had highs and lows in their life. Victory try to keep the people there really engaged - occupying their time and meeting daily to celebrate those who have stayed "clean" such times are a cause for real joy and affirmation.

Is it then the case that the services are an extension of that work? Are we just seeing a natural progression for some of those dear people who are responding in a next step way in their recovery program? Is this being hyped by Victory church or by others, if it's being hyped?

The paradox I have is this: I've seen the change of one man's life who has been to (and remains at) Victory. He is part of a dynsfunctional local family extending over several generations. I cannot believe the change in him.

Two other ministers, who I trust, know the church. Both have reservations but recognise that God is at work. One of these ministers pastored a church in the local area and is a minister of a church where this would traditionally be looked down on. Yet, knowing Victory Church and its leader, he is (cautiously) recognising that God is working but not to the extent suggested. I still can't square this with a church that's prepared to plagiarise though!

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Oh I get it!

The testimony of an anonymous source equals conclusive evidence, does it?

Good one.

Did you not read the preceding posts?

quote:
Originally posted by sidefall:
]This is obviously unproven, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

quote:
Originally posted by sidefall:
If the report I quoted is true, then it was all built on a lie.

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
Agreed on general principle, but I wouldn't base this just on the fact that the heathen apparently still smokes.

With all due respect, you apparently don't get it. What part of "if", "unproven", and "wouldn't base this just on ..." don't you understand? The previous posters were not calling it conclusive.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
knowing Victory Church and its leader, he is (cautiously) recognising that God is working but not to the extent suggested. I still can't square this with a church that's prepared to plagiarise though!

That's easy.

God works through broken vessels, otherwise none of us would see him at work at all.

The real problems arise when the positive signs of God at work are misused as an argument for wholesale endorsement/exoneration/indulgence for any and every dubious practice involved.

The list of dubious practices will vary for each of us, and might range from the type of meeting conducted (as you describe) to the issue of plagiarism.

Again, none of these mean God is not at work, but I find it useful to think in terms of indicators that should raise concerns. The more there are, the greater the cause for caution and concern.

In the specific case of Cwmbran, the red flags for me include (but are not limited to) the following:

- a complete lack of detail about the original healing
- proven plagiarism by the pastor
- the response of the church trustees to the evidence of this plagiarism
- the insistence on God being present there in a way that is unavailable elsewhere
- the fact that the pastor is on the books of a promotional agency at the same time as, amongst other things, being the principal of a Bible School (this is obviously not prohibited in Leviticus or anywhere else, but it strikes me as odd and rather inappropriate if not incompatible)
- the fact that in addition to the church, the pastor now heads up the same rehabilitation ministry he himself went through (this strikes me as an unhealthy concentration of powers and creating a lack of useful checks and balances)

Once again, none of these disqualify the church from being the recipients of God's sovereign blessing, but to my mind they add up to a troubling series of shortfalls that increase the possibility of things going badly wrong immensely. I think this is irresponsible and all the more so if a special outpouring of God is being claimed - this should be making its stewards more responsible, not less. To those whom much has been given, and so on.

Posted by sidefall (# 16394) on :

ExclamationMark, I agree with what you say, and I know all about the psychology of pentecostal meetings. What we're seeing in Cwmbran is no different to any other revival or healing service - a combination of trance-induced suggestibility, endorphins, and adrenaline. Plenty of people who think they've been healed of conditions that can't be seen, but nothing visible or medically verifiable.

I am surprised that they've managed to keep it going this long - revivals tend to die out because they are no longer exciting, or else they end in scandal, sometimes caused by the constant need to find new things to maintain people's interest.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
[QUOTE]Once again, none of these disqualify the church from being the recipients of God's sovereign blessing, but to my mind they add up to a troubling series of shortfalls that increase the possibility of things going badly wrong immensely. I think this is irresponsible and all the more so if a special outpouring of God is being claimed - this should be making its stewards more responsible, not less. To those whom much has been given, and so on.

Eutychus thanks for your wisdom. I share your concerns and hope the church sort out the prpoble m soon.

The same thing happened, in a similar kind of environment some years ago. I was ministering in a growing church between wood and water and we supported a non denom church in the big town who worked with addicts, the homeless etc. They were/are great at doing it.

Then came rumours of revival in that church: it went on for some months, many people visited, it hit the internet -- but it all blew away with damage and debris in the church itself and in the churches around. Like Todd Bentley, like Toronto, like Pensacola, it brought division but no growth - except that of distrust. I had to face up to being called someone who was out to quench the spirit because I wouldn't introduce it to the church I was part of. It was a part of my deciding to move on, tbh, after 11 years the latter few of which had seen a lot of fruit in our church life and work in the community.

Nothing new under the sun, then.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

I know you're playing the game ExclamationMark, with yer rhetoric, we all seem to be on the same side here, but ... sidefall (Hi!) said we don't know: we do.

There is no equivalence here, no 50:50, no perhaps, no maybe, maybe not.

Charismania-lite, as my congregation bathes in, is still deception, distraction at least, with a huge opportunity cost and the more vigorously, insistently we challenge it whilst embracing our 'weaker' brothers and sisters, whilst paradoxically accepting it, endorsing it, finding a way to work with it and them the more we move on together.

As with all hostile denominational and beyond exclusion. We must include it. And demand righteousness of all of ourselves.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I know you're playing the game ExclamationMark, with yer rhetoric, we all seem to be on the same side here, but ... sidefall (Hi!) said we don't know: we do.

There is no equivalence here, no 50:50, no perhaps, no maybe, maybe not.

Charismania-lite, as my congregation bathes in, is still deception, distraction at least, with a huge opportunity cost and the more vigorously, insistently we challenge it whilst embracing our 'weaker' brothers and sisters, whilst paradoxically accepting it, endorsing it, finding a way to work with it and them the more we move on together.

As with all hostile denominational and beyond exclusion. We must include it. And demand righteousness of all of ourselves.

You say there's no 50:50 but you talk about "
... challenge it whilst ..... paradoxically accepting it, endorsing it"

Surely that's 50:50?

We also very quick to draw lines of judgment in the church (and on this board tbh) over charismatic issues, whilst whinging when others try to do the same for our pet peeves. Doesn't make any sense ....

Posted by sidefall (# 16394) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
but ... sidefall (Hi!) said we don't know: we do.

There's a difference between knowing something yourself and knowing you can defend a libel case!!

That's why I put a question mark in the title of this thread.

I know all about pentecostals [Biased]

but I don't have anything specific and verifiable about this particular situation.

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Charismania-lite, as my congregation bathes in, is still deception, distraction at least, with a huge opportunity cost and the more vigorously, insistently we challenge it whilst embracing our 'weaker' brothers and sisters, whilst paradoxically accepting it, endorsing it, finding a way to work with it and them the more we move on together.

ISTM that if this discussion becomes a proxy for disputing whether supernatural spiritual gifts (healing, miracles etc.) function today, then there'll be much heat but little light. If one thinks there's no such thing (either not now or not ever) as divine healing, miracles and so on, then of course one will consider events like those at Cwmbran to be based on deception!

Unless I've misunderstood your position on this, Martin, in which case please accept my apologies. [Hot and Hormonal]

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
If one thinks there's no such thing (either not now or not ever) as divine healing, miracles and so on, then of course one will consider events like those at Cwmbran to be based on deception!

For my part I'm prepared to believe in divine healing and miracles. But the concerns I've listed above all make me doubt the authenticity of the one with which this revival is said to originate.

I am far more ready to believe this one, for a whole host of reasons, not least of which are the quotes from those immediately involved.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

ExclamationMark, nah, it's 100:100.

sidefall, I'd LOVE to see the court case, to be the defendant in fact.

South Coast Kevin, don't you DARE apologize to the likes of me. I'm perfectly happy for God to perform private, personal, subjective miracles: He has for me. I have my own personal store, which I've shared here. I'd be more than delighted if He did any public ones. I love the one in Christopher Ecclestone's The Second Coming. He doesn't. Not that any of us have encountered. None at all. That isn't cynicism or lack of faith in the slightest.

It's an incontrovertible fact.

That no one here can gainsay. No one here has ever witnessed a suspension of the laws of physics, Jesus level miracles.

And I pray for my beloved colleague James in hospital with a Haemophilus influenzae lung infection. Thanking God for His providence. I have no idea what else to pray for. For hope, for peace. As with the acutely dispossessed people I was praying with on Friday night.

Eutychus. Shame on you [Smile]

True revival will happen for the first time in 2000 years when we hold all things in common and bear one another's burdens.

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :

With family in Newport just down from Cwmbran I was interested back in May (having heard about it on the Ship) to see what they knew/had heard particularly as part of a Pentecostal denomination. It was news to them, and although picked up and discussed on Radio Wales God slot one sunday morning I don't think it has caused any other local media interest - a search under the church name in the local paper brings up someone doing a fundraising race for the rehab bit and 2 letters over a year ago about tradition vs new churches.

I am sure there are those who have encounters with God in coming open and expectant, I'm sure there are those who are encouraged and refreshed by being in a big group (Big top syndrome).

I am also sure that there are those swept along on the hype and the crowd psychology, and there are those who will be bruised and damaged.

At some stage they will have to stop the nightly meetings, as the dust settles the results will be assessed. As a church that has had a meaningful ministry with some of those who would never come to other churches and whom we probably wouldn't know how to respond to if they did my concern is if the long term mission and ministry becomes compromised by all this, especially if it ends messily rather than a petering out.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

And South Coast Kevin, if a public, attested, no possible doubt about it miracle happened at Cwmbran, despite all of the deception, of course I would praise God. But none has. And if one did, what would it signify? What would it be for? A miracle at Cwmbran. And nowhere else. For there have been none. Not for a while. Not round here. None of us knows of one. First hand. Angola now, yes. Hundreds and hundreds of years ago everywhere, yes. There are lots and lots. If there are, were, it's got nothing to do with us. Like God's alleged behaviour outside of Jesus.

Coincidences dressed up as God incidents, yes. My miracles can easily be included in those. But NONE of us has experienced a suspension of the laws of physics. Healings of mind, thinking, feeling, spirit yes. But no one here has been miraculously healed of diabetes or arthritis or blindness or Down's syndrome or Alzheimer's or bipolarity or a severed spine or being shot through the heart or knows anyone who has.

Such miracles do not happen. I know the enemy of faith is certainty, but what's this got to do with faith?

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

The very charismatic widow of a charismatic vicar who used to minister in Cwmbran now worships at our local parish here in Cheshire. She can't understand why I haven't dashed down to check this all this out and encounter the 'blessing' and so on - despite still having relatives in the area.

I grew up in Cwmbran. I knew the churches well and this lot are relatively new.

To be honest, I'm not that interested at all, save for some curiosity that it's happening in my home town.

Some comments:

Cwmbran has pockets of depravity and some pretty grim housing estates but it's got nothing on Blaenau Gwent - over in the next Valley. If this was all about God doing something for the poor people of South-East Wales then why isn't happening in Ebbw Vale or Blaina?

@Darllenwyr, your vicar might find himself waiting for a long time, my friend. I've been hearing from earnest charismatic evangelicals for the last 30 years that we are on the cusp of something, that this that or the other 'outpouring' is a 'foretaste' of things to come ... yadda yadda yadda ...

If I had a fiver for every time I'd heard that, I'd be able to retire and I'm sure Eutychus could have done so before me. And bought a yacht.

[Roll Eyes]

I don't doubt that churches like Victory are good at helping people with addictions and reaching out to marginalised people and so on. But, I think, the Rhythm Methodist who also ministers in South Wales has some reservations about their methodology.

Admittedly, I've not been to look but I'm not surprised they've been able to sustain the oomph for as long as they have ... they are well organised and appear to have a core of committed people, strong networks and communication channels and sufficient fame - at least among the revivalist cognoscenti - to keep drawing people in. From what I can gather, most of the attendees are coming in from large charismatic churches elsewhere.

There are people from other churches - of all denominations - going along to have a gander - but the story hasn't really attracted that much attention in the local media. If you knew the South Wales Argus and the South Wales Echo (is it still going?) or the Pontypool Free Press ('incorporating Herald of the Hills') then you can bet your bottom dollar that they'd all have been along to report on it if they thought it was worthwhile ... heck, it's not as if they are inundated with news.

My own view is that this is a Dudley. Remember that? There was a localised 'outpouring' there a few years ago that fizzled out after a while. As this one will in its turn.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

Thanks and welcome back Gamaliel. Same thing happened in a similar type of church between wood and water in 2010. Lots of flash, smoke and mirrors but no lasting impact. Business as usual except for those deluded by the hype - and as always, a singularly unrepentant leadership in the church itself.

Posted by AberVicar (# 16451) on :

There needs to be a distinction made between the work of Victory Outreach and what is or is not happening at the Victory Church (and its offshoots).

Victory Outreach is the faith-based organisation begun by David and Dinah Sansom which has been working very successfully to rehabilitate youngsters in need, often as a result of drug abuse, and generally on their release from prison. Their main male community is based at the former Bush Hotel right next door to Saint Michael's church here in the centre of Abertillery. Over the years they have gained enormous respect especially from the prison chaplaincy service, and they until recently were very carefully (and warmly) linked with the worship and outreach of the local churches.

Since the leadership of Victory Outreach passed to Richard Taylor (in a spectacular event at Llandaff Cathedral in the presence of the former Archbishop of Canterbury) he has founded the Victory Church and focused the ministry of the communities on the worship and activity there.

So there is a difference between Victory Outreach, with its widely acknowledged track record; and the activities of Victory Church. The transforming work of Victory Outreach was taking place quietly before the advent of Victory Church, and it was gently and well integrated into its local community. For example, they made a point of bringing all the boys to attend the Crib Service at Saint Michael's, and my predecessor regularly attended their daily community worship, which I was also warmly encouraged to do.

I am not in a strong enough position to judge why, but the local relationships have changed - right across the board. I don't doubt that Richard Taylor believes he is carrying out God's will and vision both for the Victory Outreach communities and for the rest of us in this part of the world. Yet I don't feel as confident in sensing God at work as I previously was.

This, I know, is not a matter of clear discernment - but it isn't a hopeful start to the process.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Interesting.

Thanks AberVicar.

I just hope that the good work that Victory Outreach does isn't blown off track by all of this.

It has sometimes been noticed in some evangelical charismatic quarters - but never, as far as I know, widely reflected upon, that the Chinese Christian leader, Watchman Nee - widely admired in these circles - experienced a similar 'outpouring' in the 1930s.

Nee held that certain revivalist practices acted like 'spiritual opium' and his biographer, Angus Kinnear, reflected that looking back three years after the event, 'that the gain has been rather trivial and the loss quite large.'

A.Kinnear, 'Against the Tide: The Story of Watchman Nee', Victory Press, Eastbourne, 1974 pp.134-5.

One of the least helpful aspects of contemporary evangelical charismaticdom is that it is unfamiliar with its own history and fails to learn from it.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Someone from my church was supposed to be visiting during a holiday in the UK and I await reports.

Report now in.

The person who visited comes from a traditional pentecostal background and while she is a well-established member of our church (which does not self-identify as charismatic), she occasionally goes off to charismatic knees-ups.

She described the meeting she went to as packed, too loud, and with the usual phenomena common to this type of meeting (people falling over, etc) but "nothing out of the ordinary". She added that she much preferred the dynamic in the run-of-the-mill church she attended for the rest of her holiday time in the UK.

I think this adds up to old-school pentecostal discernment at its best [Smile]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Seconded.

I'd give old-school Pentecostal discernment the thumbs-up over the more middle-class charismatic variety every time.

Posted by Darllenwr (# 14520) on :

Thank you for the first-hand information, Eutychus. It chimes in far more closely with what I had anticipated than much of the, somewhat biased, rhetoric that has been spouted about this "phenomenon".

What is it folk say? "Move along, people, nothing to see here"?

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

So, according to this church, C.S. Lewis is smoking his pipe in hell?

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Sooo....this morning we had, at our place, a congregation 25% of whom were under 16.....we had a student convert from Islam, who had brought along his neighbour's 5-year old son: a profoundly deaf young man with cerebral palsy and autism, who is very, very desirous of being baptised, and of receiving the Blessed Sacrament: a young woman who was encountering Christian worship for (almost) the first time (and who intends to come back next week bringing her teenage daughter), two young families, three other youngsters brought by their grandparents, a 54-year old thurifer with Asperger's Syndrome, one or two older folk, a teenager awaiting her GCSE results..........

.......all in a little backstreet Anglo-Catholic parish church with no pretensions......

....just to point out that the Holy Spirit is busy beavering away in some of the forgotten places, as well as in those with all the hype!

Ian J.

Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
we had a student convert from Islam, who had brought along his neighbour's 5-year old son:

And did the neighbour, the parent of the 5 year, know their son was being brought to a church?

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Has anyone read the article on Victory Church in the "Big Issue" Sept 3-9? (My copy is "Big Issue Scotland" but AFAIK the main articles are the same in all the UK Big Issues; it's just the advertising that changes.)

It's a fairly positive article, with interviews with two former addicts who became part of Victory Outreach in 2006 and 2009 respectively.

Although posters on this thread have distinguished between the long standing Victory Outreach, and the recent revival in Victory church, the article makes no distinction.

I'd be interested to know what other posters think of this being covered in the Big Issue.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

The Big Issue article was very good. Very balanced.

Apart from some very minor quibbles I'd say it was one of the best articles I've seen in a non-specialist publication about these issues.

Is there a link online?

Posted by sidefall (# 16394) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Is there a link online?

The blog I originally quoted appears to have reproduced it - see here

I agree, it is a good article.

Posted by A.Pilgrim (# 15044) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
...
The real problems arise when the positive signs of God at work are misused as an argument for wholesale endorsement/exoneration/indulgence for any and every dubious practice involved.
...

I wonder if Jephthah (Judges 11:1-12:7) is the biblical precedent for counteracting this sort of argument. Jephthah was 'spirit-filled' (Judges 11:29) and God worked through him to defend the people of Israel (11:32) but he showed the dubious practices of random selection of human sacrifice (11:31) which has no precedent or command whatsoever in Sinai Covenant law, and was ignorant of what the Covenant law instructed regarding rash vows (Lev.5:4-6). So the fact of being 'spirit-filled' is no guarantee of faithful adherence to godly behaviour in all things.
Angus

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sidefall:

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Is there a link online?
The blog I originally quoted appears to have reproduced it - see here

I agree, it is a good article.

It is a good article, but the top comment is interesting too. It makes the point that both the rehab testimonies date from before Victory Church (as opposed to Victory Outreach) was founded by Richard Taylor. There's a fault line there worth noting. The commenter is also absolutely right that being unable to interview the beneficiary of the first alleged miracle "for pastoral reasons" should set off alarm bells.

A. Pilgrim, Jephthah is a good illustration. However, I have a book on my shelves by evangelical scholar Daniel Arnold called Le livre des Juges, ces mystérieux héros de la foi, which in a tour de force of exegetical ju-jitsu manages to rehabilitate every action of the judges cited in Hebrews 11 as heroes of the faith (including Jephthah) such that they are fine upstanding citizens, so your point may be lost on some.

[ 14. September 2013, 20:36: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Truman White (# 17290) on :

I've been to a couple of the meetings (was in that part of the country in the summer). Met the guy who got healed - if it was staged the whole church are liars since I met a good few of them who confirmed his story.

Yeah the music was loud, but there wre a lot of young people there and that's how they like their music. I took cotton wool - works wonders.

Whole thing reminded me of a "last night at camp/conference." People running it have stacks of energy and really committed not just to the meetings but also to the pastoral work that goes with supporting some of the people who come along who are from, shall we say, challenging backgrounds.

One thing that impressed me was that they never announce the speaker before the meeting. Clearly trying to avoid the cult if personality trap that Florida got into. So speakers from the church and visitors.

Always pray for the sick (but a lot of churches do that in different ways) and preach an evangelistic message. Met some folks who had brought a friend to hear the message and made a commitment on the night. When asked why, he said "Tonight - it just made sense."

They're pretty excited about what's going on - don't seem to realise much about similar stuff, less visible, happening elsewhere. Pleased to read the Bish's post.

Reactions to Csmbran seem to fall into one of two knee jerk reactions. On the one end "it's going to turn the whole of Wales back to Christ" (not on it's own it isn't) and "it's a load of hype like stuff we've seen elsewhere." Wrong again. It's an extended evangelistic rally regularly reaching people with the good news, and run by people ready to commit themselves to the people who come along.

I'll give 'em some slack for being over-excited (people grow our of that) and credit for their commitment and self-sacrifice.

And I'm praying their PA bloke gets some proper training [Razz]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Good to have a first hand account. Yours ties in quite well with the one in The Big Issue, Truman.

For my part, I don't believe that the original healing - if that's what it was - was 'staged'. The proof of it will be in whether it lasts.

I used to belong to a church where a bloke had a sudden and apparently miraculous healing - he was in a wheel-chair and had emphysema and so on. It certainly looked and sounded impressive. He was up and walking about, even got married a second time.

In the end, it killed him. He still died relatively young. Looking back, I don't believe it was a miraculous healing at all. But what his faith and his encounter with this charismatic church gave him was a sense of oomph and empowerment - a very, very strong example of the placebo effect.

Gradually, it wore off and he died. But give credit where it's due, he had a heck of a lot better quality of life, a sense of purpose and probably a few more years on this earth more than he would have done otherwise.

There's a powerful vibe in churches like this and the adrenalin kick can last for some considerable time.

I'm not saying that God isn't involved with that, simply that these things aren't always as straightforward as they are made out to be - either by their proponents or their critics.

The same applies to the 'commitment' thing. I tend to avoid that kind of terminology these days - 'he/she made a commitment' - but I know what Truman means by it.

The proof of such 'commitments' can only be assessed in the longer term too.

I don't doubt that the Victory crowd are reaching 'challenging people' and doing a good work with people from difficult backgrounds and so on. That's part of the strength of Pentecostalism.

What we're seeing in Cwmbran, it seems to me, is simply a more sustained form of Pentecostal evangelistic impulse which may have a while to run yet before the energy begins to run out.

It's difficult to sustain a high-octane approach to spirituality for the longer haul - as Evan Roberts found. There's always the risk of burn-out.

If these guys are wise enough to vary the pace then they may sustain things for longer.

I suspect, though, that the more enduring work is that which is being done behind the scenes and day by day with personal interaction and support for some of those from 'challenging' backgrounds rather than the kind of 'spiritual tourism' that inevitably accompanies such events.

Posted by sidefall (# 16394) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
For my part, I don't believe that the original healing - if that's what it was - was 'staged'. The proof of it will be in whether it lasts.
...
Gradually, it wore off and he died. But give credit where it's due, he had a heck of a lot better quality of life, a sense of purpose and probably a few more years on this earth more than he would have done otherwise.
...
There's a powerful vibe in churches like this and the adrenalin kick can last for some considerable time.

I agree, I don't think the "healing" was deliberately "staged" - I think it was just someone getting a bit excited.

BUT that is not a divine healing, which is what Richard Taylor has said it was.

And whilst I agree that a positive mental outlook is important, I feel very uneasy about giving people false hope. The cognitive dissonance caused by someone believing they've been healed when in reality they haven't is extremely harmful.

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What we're seeing in Cwmbran, it seems to me, is simply a more sustained form of Pentecostal evangelistic impulse which may have a while to run yet before the energy begins to run out.

It's difficult to sustain a high-octane approach to spirituality for the longer haul - as Evan Roberts found. There's always the risk of burn-out.

If these guys are wise enough to vary the pace then they may sustain things for longer.

I think the energy has run out - they are reducing the meetings to just twice a week from now on.

I think revivals always have a limited shelf-life. People are attracted by the enthusiasm, but after a while it becomes boring.

Posted by A.Pilgrim (# 15044) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
A. Pilgrim, Jephthah is a good illustration. However, I have a book on my shelves by evangelical scholar Daniel Arnold called Le livre des Juges, ces mystérieux héros de la foi, which in a tour de force of exegetical ju-jitsu manages to rehabilitate every action of the judges cited in Hebrews 11 as heroes of the faith (including Jephthah) such that they are fine upstanding citizens, so your point may be lost on some.

Ah well, you win some, you lose some. ::rueful smiley::
Angus

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

As usual Gamaliel, I love the way you find the positive in this. I'm struggling to do the same in our 'charismatic evangelical' fellowship. It's like endorsing herbalism and homeopathy for the considerable placebo effect (still 25% of medicine after all), I'm doing the same for 'words of knowledge' and claims of healing.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Well, if The Big Issue can find something positive to say about it then surely I, as a fellow believer, can find something positive to say about my brothers and sisters in Victory Church, Cwmbran - my old home town - even if I don't agree with them on every point.

I'm often accused of being anti-charismatic on these boards and I've probably been overly critical at times. I s'pose my default position now is that 99.9% of what goes on in avowedly charismatic circles tends towards the homeopathic in theandric terms ... but at least they're having a go ...

I think the positive is there to be found. I couldn't be part of a full-on charismatic church any more though ... the cognitive dissonance between what is claimed and what actually happens would be too big a gulf to bridge.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

That's a move of the Spirit Gamaliel. I experienced the same last night in my charismatic evangelical fellowship. Acceptance, goodwill, inclusion, humbling, correction, submission, superior worthiness extended toward 'them'.

That's theandric in you and me Gamaliel.

Posted by wishandaprayer (# 17673) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The Big Issue article was very good. Very balanced.

Apart from some very minor quibbles I'd say it was one of the best articles I've seen in a non-specialist publication about these issues.

Is there a link online?

Big Issue Article

Posted by Truman White (# 17290) on :

quote:
Originally posted by wishandaprayer:

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The Big Issue article was very good. Very balanced.

Apart from some very minor quibbles I'd say it was one of the best articles I've seen in a non-specialist publication about these issues.

Is there a link online?
Big Issue Article

Cheers

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