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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A problem with the Social Gospel?
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
From time to time, I watch Youtube videos of the sermons of Dr Raphael Warnock from Ebenezer Baptist in Atlanta, Georgia (Martin Luther King's old church). Now, let me make it clear that I listen to what he has to say because I think he's an amazing speaker. He puts most preachers to shame. I also happen to agree with pretty much everything he says, although his focus is often on American politics, which I don't follow very closely.
BUT, I've found myself worrying where the Christianity is in all of it. I'm sure that Dr Warnock would say that his message is absolutely based in the teachings and ministry of Jesus, and I'm sure that it is the basis of his beliefs. I have no reason to doubt that he is an orthodox Christian. But, despite the Biblical quotations and references to Jesus, I'm not sure that I've ever heard him say anything that I can't imagine being said by a Unitarian minister, or a Liberal Jewish Rabbi, or — for that matter — any centre-left secular person.
Now, it's great to find common ground with these people, but I do worry that Social Gospel preachers are at risk of reducing Christianity to the Categorical Imperative, and Orthopraxy to a mixture of social work and moderately left-wing politics. I'm not saying that there's not a place for those things (I think there very much is), but I can't see how it's distinctively Christian.
Am I just overly sensitive on this point?
BTW: this a very typical example of Dr Warnock's teaching, although not actually a sermon in this case.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I've heard that kind of comment about a number of church activities - are we doing anything the local Lions Club can't do?
Like, there are secular food pantries and church-run food pantries, is there any difference? Do we offer anything that fills the real need better or speaks to other needs the secular providers don't?
When the beggar asks for money, can we say "silver and gold have I none but I'll give you something better than money" and make such a difference in his life he is leaping with joy?
Or are we just one more handout?
Not saying it's a bad thing for a church to run a food pantry, but is that all we have to offer?
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iamchristianhearmeroar
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# 15483
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Posted
But "the real need" for the hungry is actually food, isn't it? People are hungry because they have no food, not because they don't believe in Jesus.
Jesus didn't say "For I was hungry and you gave me a Bible, I was thirsty and you told me your Gospel, I was a stranger and you told me about heaven..."
Don't get me wrong, I don't think social work is all that the church should be doing, but frankly it would be a good start in many cases! I personally see that passage in Matthew (amongst others) as a direct call to social action because in serving the other you are serving Christ himself. (Which is not to say that I'm good at doing it...at all...)
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
We've been running a hot supper with most of the publicity going towards the "low-rent" section of the village, getting about 30 or more out to eat, mingle and chat. Very pleasant - they appreciate the offer, they come as they are, the kids play reasonably well, a "good time is had by all".
Several of our congo are now on good terms with quite a few "nones" whom we would not otherwise have met, and there is now the opportunity to be helpful when needed. Trying to keep it low key, but living out the Gospel, particularly the Second Great Commandment.
It is quite obvious that the people who are most ill at ease are our own congregants, many of whom act as if they have to try speaking in another language (which, of course, is somewhat true!)
But the Gospel, or the Bible as a whole, doesn't make sense if you live cloistered away from the rest of us.
A state school is actually a more Christian entity than many (most?) churches, in that the school must accept all the children, regardless of their parents, their social standing, their (in)abilities...
This, in turn, is why so many Christians send their children to some other sort of school ,so said children won't have to put up with real people.
The Church acts more like Hyacinth Buckett than it does Onslow and Daisy. But this is not the message of the Bible.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
Most of the people I know aren't Christians. One of their first complaints about churches is that they don't practice what they preach. Which they usually think of as the sort of thing Jesus told people to do. If you want to reach those people, that's what you have to do first.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
Most of the people I know aren't Christians. One of their first complaints about churches is that they don't practice what they preach. Which they usually think of as the sort of thing Jesus told people to do. If you want to reach those people, that's what you have to do first.
Most of the Christians (and Churches) that I know are, indeed, out there feeding the poor, clothing the naked and so on. Most of the non-Christians I know don't know anything about that, but do know a lot about people protesting on TV about same-sex marriage and abortion.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I would suggest that if the effect of Christianity is to cause people to do good things, that's a feature, not a bug, regardless of whether those are the same good things a virtuous non-Christian would do. The difference comes in acknowledging whom we have to thank that we have been given the ability and will to do to good.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
A couple of interesting quotes from William Booth, Founder of The Salvation Army:
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Nobody gets a blessing if they have cold feet and nobody ever got saved while they had toothache
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To get a man soundly saved it is not enough to put on him a pair of new breeches, to give him regular work, or even to give him a University education. These things are all outside a man, and if the inside remains unchanged you have wasted your labour. You must in some way or other graft upon the man's nature a new nature, which has in it the element of the Divine.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Most of the Christians (and Churches) that I know are, indeed, out there feeding the poor, clothing the naked and so on. Most of the non-Christians I know don't know anything about that, but do know a lot about people protesting on TV about same-sex marriage and abortion.
Sadly true for most people, I should think. It's not entirely the fault of Christians, though; people protesting vehemently about social matters like same-sex marriage is deemed newsworthy whereas most of the social action carried out by Christians is pretty low-profile so doesn't make the news.
But of course this means Christians should be aware of the image we're portraying when we protest about what we perceive as society's ills...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Most of the Christians (and Churches) that I know are, indeed, out there feeding the poor, clothing the naked and so on. Most of the non-Christians I know don't know anything about that, but do know a lot about people protesting on TV about same-sex marriage and abortion.
I agree. This seems to be the problem of a multiplicity of denominations. Any Christian group who gets into the news become, by default, the voice of Christianity to many people.
On the other hand the Anglican church has done itself no favours in its handling of women priests/bishops (a Dead Horses subject I know) or the Occupy movement outside St Paul's. There is a fine line between having a nuanced view of a complex subject and equivocation. And it's not the sort of distinction the media are interested in.
Last time I thought the Church really made a noticeable positive impact on public opinion was during Margaret Thatcher's era. But being a fairly unrepentant leftie I would say that wouldn't I?
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
It is noticeable that the new Pope had very positive reviews because he actually spoke about issues that matter in a positive way. How many other church people (clergy or laity) so silent?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
This is one area where churches could make a real difference but don't.
I think I've referred to this before, but my city's welfare department (as an example) developed a new application process several years ago that seems intentionally designed to prevent the vast majority of applicants (details on request) from actually asking for assistance. The process is almost self-parodying -- ridiculously onerous and cumbersome.
My former church, whose members are largely upper-middle-class, reasonably well-off, were unaware
of this. Such aid to the poor as they gave out was, in theory, intended to assist those who "fell through the cracks," not understanding that the "cracks," in this case, had become more like canyons.
With the new app process, the numbers of people seeking aid from our church began to swell, and before long, our committee in charge of aid was having discussions about "deserving" poor, and developing a screening process to avoid handouts to the cheaters, frauds, service-abusers, etc. of the middle-class imagination. (Not that these don't exist, but the numbers are smaller than most think.)
In short, we were in serious danger of using the city's "turn 'em off, so you don't have to turn 'em down" model as a basis for our own charitable giving.
My experience in helping my clients apply for assorted city welfare benefits was an eye-opener for this committee, and I was happy to see the discussion turn quickly to "But where does Jesus suggest screening people?"
Of course, there's also the problem of churches having shallower pockets than even the city welfare department and wanting to be good stewards of their resources.
I wish churches could consolidate their efforts in ways that put pressure on government-run assistance, making those programs live up to the promises they seem to hold out.
The real problem, AFAICS, is that the majority of US anti-poverty programs do nothing to help their clients out of poverty. Quite the opposite: they maintain their clients in poverty -- with the clients then being blamed for becoming dependent.
One example: Husband deserts wife and toddler; wife applies for & gets state welfare; several months later, wife finds a job with barely-livable wages and no health insurance and wants to take it in order to get off welfare; social worker informs wife she can start working but risks having her kid taken away, as having no health benefits renders her, in the eyes of the state, a neglectful and unfit parent. Guess what the woman decides to do?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I know the food pantry near my house is run by a church only because I know the people who started it. The food pantry has no indication on the building or inside that any church as anything to do with it. Most people assume it's another secular food pantry.
It's great that churches want to help feed the poor, but shouldn't they be willing to drop a hint about why they feel that motivation? A hint that there's more to life than food? Food matters, so does knowing God.
The big secular food pantry refuses to tell it's own clients they can go there for more food. A charity attracts donors/grants by statistical success, they see the free one as competition, a threat to their growth in ability to attract donations (and thus a threat to salary increases).
The secular world isn't going to tell people about the work churches do (if only to keep their secular persona and not seem to endorse any church); the churches aren't admitting they are providing the help, why would anyone think church do anything for the community?
Has "don't let the left hand know what the right hand is doing" inappropriately silenced the churches? What happened to "Let your light shine so others can see and be attracted to whatever is motivating you"?
If people have no idea what churches are doing for the community, that's not entirely the newspapers' fault.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Has "don't let the left hand know what the right hand is doing" inappropriately silenced the churches? What happened to "Let your light shine so others can see and be attracted to whatever is motivating you"?
If people have no idea what churches are doing for the community, that's not entirely the newspapers' fault.
Great points, Ms Ringer. So how can we let our light shine without inappropriate blowing of our own trumpet? (Mixed metaphors ahoy!) Answers on a postcard, please...
I guess on the personal level, Christians involved in social action should always be ready to speak about our faith when we feel it's appropriate to do so. But judging the appropriateness is no simple task...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Great points, Ms Ringer. So how can we let our light shine without inappropriate blowing of our own trumpet? (Mixed metaphors ahoy!) Answers on a postcard, please...
A small badge/brooch. It can work wonders - some one agreed to go out with me after a chance encounter because I was wearing a CND badge (Bad people, she told me, don't wear CND badges). We've been married for nearly thirty years.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I sat today listening to people discuss two different food related projects. Lets call them big project and small project. The people who were discussing the projects were interested in raising the quality of food in the projects. However it came across quite clearly that the way clients view the projects is very different.
In big project clients grumble about the food. In the small one clients give praise for the food. The big difference is the ethos behind the two project. The big project focuses on feeding homeless people, the small project focuses on providing a space where all people are treated with dignity (it just happens to do this while providing food).
I would like to say the small one was Christian and the big one was secular. Unfortunately they are both Christian. However I do believe that the focus for a Christian project should not be on doing it efficiently but on seeing the person who has the need. I think by doing that our social outreach activities are shaped by part of the Gospel and become more than just another project.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
Now, it's great to find common ground with these people, but I do worry that Social Gospel preachers are at risk of reducing Christianity to the Categorical Imperative, and Orthopraxy to a mixture of social work and moderately left-wing politics. I'm not saying that there's not a place for those things (I think there very much is), but I can't see how it's distinctively Christian.
Am I just overly sensitive on this point?
I don't think you're overly sensitive at all.
The Social Gospel is a good thing in its place. But it's not the entirety of the Gospel, nor even its main point. In many churches it's become the tail that wags the dog, and questions of faith are waved aside with bromides about "kingdom work".
It cannot be denied that works of corporal mercy are part of living the Christian life. It is equally undeniable, though, that the focus of the Christian religion is the saving of souls, one at a time. The Social Gospel is good when it serves to help bring people closer to Jesus. When it stops serving that central imperative, it's in danger of becoming a heresy.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Fr Weber: It is equally undeniable, though, that the focus of the Christian religion is the saving of souls, one at a time.
Remind me to never become a part of that religion.
I guess I am influenced by both Liberation Theology and Taizé: both the social and the spiritual aspects are important to me. To me personally there is no struggle or competition between them, they are complimentary aspects of my faith.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Fr Weber: It is equally undeniable, though, that the focus of the Christian religion is the saving of souls, one at a time.
Remind me to never become a part of that religion.
I guess I am influenced by both Liberation Theology and Taizé: both the social and the spiritual aspects are important to me. To me personally there is no struggle or competition between them, they are complimentary aspects of my faith.
I agree that both social and spiritual aspects are important. But once the social aspect becomes the main focus, the church begins traveling down a road which eventually leads away from Christianity.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Fr Weber: But once the social aspect becomes the main focus, the church begins traveling down a road which eventually leads away from Christianity.
If the road to Christianity leads away from the social aspect, I don't want to be travelling it.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I think the biggest issue I have with some forms of Christianity is this decoupling between social and spiritual aspects.
Spiritual aspects are being to reduced to 'saving people's souls'. I don't even believe in saving people's souls, at least not in the way it is usually portrayed.
'Saving people's souls' is presented as something that's entirely between the person and God: people should repent of their sins and accept Jesus as their saviour in their hearts and yaddayaddayadda. And your sins are usually defined in terms of not listening enough to your preacher, not titheing enough, and especially doing things with your naughty bits.
When I read the Gospels, I see Jesus saying different things: sin is not caring enough about your neighbour. Not feeding, clothing, visiting him or her. Leaving him by the side of the road while feeling all pious.
If there is anything like 'saving our souls' it's being saved from our egoism, it's seeing that there's more in this world than just me-me-me, it's realizing that there is a bigger, spiritual dimension to everything. And in this dimension, Jesus is standing besides us.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
NO LeRoc, dead faith is better than living works. But if you MUST do living works, make sure that you only do it as a pretext for dead faith. That they say the sinner's prayer so they can die and you can go on to the next 'person of peace'.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: NO LeRoc, dead faith is better than living works. But if you MUST do living works, make sure that you only do it as a pretext for dead faith. That they say the sinner's prayer so they can die and you can go on to the next 'person of peace'.
My sarcasm detector is softly beeping here, so I'll go along with that ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I think the biggest issue I have with some forms of Christianity is this decoupling between social and spiritual aspects.
Spiritual aspects are being to reduced to 'saving people's souls'. I don't even believe in saving people's souls, at least not in the way it is usually portrayed.
We don't see much of that attitude these days, though. Most denominations, even the most conservative, realise that they have to do more than simply preach at people. Talk is cheap.
However, in the wealthiest countries, social care can now be provided far more efficiently by secular agencies than by church groups. And as both church finances and the number of practising Christians go down it'll be a challenge for churches to play the role of generous provider or effective champion.
In the developing countries where there are growing numbers of Christians the 'social gospel' may well mean Christians helping each other and their local communities, rather than a wealthy church on one side helping 'poor people' on the other.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
SvitlanaV2: However, in the wealthiest countries, social care can now be provided far more efficiently by secular agencies than by church groups.
In a number of countries the social care provided by the government is being demolished quite rapidly though, not in the least by politicians and parties who call themselves 'Christian'.
quote:
SvitlanaV2: In the developing countries where there are growing numbers of Christians the 'social gospel' may well mean Christians helping each other and their local communities, rather than a wealthy church on one side helping 'poor people' on the other.
This is true, and I have seen some very good examples of that.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
SvitlanaV2: However, in the wealthiest countries, social care can now be provided far more efficiently by secular agencies than by church groups.
In a number of countries the social care provided by the government is being demolished quite rapidly though, not in the least by politicians and parties who call themselves 'Christian'.
Putting the two points together, the church's role could be in campaigning against such moves. It's getting people fed that counts, you don't have to do it all yourself.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
I'm scarcely a Sola Fide type myself (i.e. a firmly believe the Epistle of James when it says 'faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead'), but I would expect the works to be rooted in faith.
I may be displaying a cultural lack of understanding about liberal Protestantism when I say this, but I've always found that Roman Catholics tend to get the balance about right. Not that I agree with every aspect of current RC social teachings, but Dead Horses aside, works like Rerum Novarum and the numerous responses to it, seem to me to be a good example of how works can flow from faith. Similarly with Frank Weston's speech ('Our Present Duty') to the Anglo-Catholic conference. Note that all of these start from the position of faith ('Jesus in the Tabernacle') and move from there to works ('Jesus in the slums'). This, to me, is what makes them a distinctly Christian response to the problems of the world. There are, of course, distinctly Jewish, Islamic, and Buddhists responses to these problems, and other responses routed in no religious understanding.
Perhaps because I'm so used to seeing Christianity in strongly sacramental terms (the main reason why I have not become a Quaker), I lose sight of the connection between our faith and our charity except when presented in strongly sacramental terms.
Perhaps some of the Ship's members from liberal Protestant traditions might explain how they see the connection.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
que sais-je: Putting the two points together, the church's role could be in campaigning against such moves. It's getting people fed that counts, you don't have to do it all yourself.
I agree completely.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
Perhaps some of the Ship's members from liberal Protestant traditions might explain how they see the connection.
I don't know about others, but I would say that I think many of Christ's most strongly worded instructions were about loving others, righting wrongs, and showing people God's love. I don't see how we can do that but to fight injustice, and to help the metaphorical widows and orphans.
Don't take this as a criticism, but I don't think God would tell people sorry I'll be taking communion with my besties while you're starving. Feel free to come in for a bit of wine. Communion is a big reason I'm still part of the church. It's very important to me, but if that's all we have, we're the people (Paul?) mentioned who go to communion early and eat up all the food leaving those who have to work late to go hungry.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
S. Bacchus: I may be displaying a cultural lack of understanding about liberal Protestantism when I say this, but I've always found that Roman Catholics tend to get the balance about right. Not that I agree with every aspect of current RC social teachings, but Dead Horses aside, works like Rerum Novarum and the numerous responses to it, seem to me to be a good example of how works can flow from faith.
I'm inclined to look more at the practical level, and I personally know a lot of RC parishes in Latin America that get the balance exactly right at this level.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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A.Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 15044
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
... And your sins are usually defined in terms of not listening enough to your preacher, not titheing enough, and especially doing things with your naughty bits.
When I read the Gospels, I see Jesus saying different things: sin is not caring enough about your neighbour. Not feeding, clothing, visiting him or her. Leaving him by the side of the road while feeling all pious.
...
Mark's gospel includes a report of Jesus explaining what is sinful, and the list includes two activities where people do things with their naughty bits.
Posts: 434 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
A.Pilgrim: Mark's gospel includes a report of Jesus explaining what is sinful, and the list includes two activities where people do things with their naughty bits.
Let's forget on the 10.000 things that Jesus said about caring for your neighbour and concentrate on those two words, shall we? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
In any case, you won't hear me denying that sexual immorality (note that He doesn't define this further) or adultery are bad things. But even those things aren't portrayed here as exclusively between you and God.
If you commit adultery, the problem isn't that you have become less holy and you shouldn't put it right to God. The problem is that you promised to be faithful to someone and you deceived that person.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
My OP was really more about teaching and belief than praxis. Of course Christians are called to help the poor, the sick and the needy.
But if we turn that goal into the primary message of Christianity, how does the mandate of the Church then differ from that of social services? Saying that the Church takes care of people that social services neglect doesn't answer that question (glad that I am that it may be the case).
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Don't take this as a criticism, but I don't think God would tell people sorry I'll be taking communion with my besties while you're starving. Feel free to come in for a bit of wine.
Well, no, but that's not what Bishop Weston said. It's about the opposite of what he said, which was that Catholic Christians (he was addressing Anglo-Catholics, but the point is broader) are compelled by their sacramental faith to help the poor. I like this approach because it doesn't treat the theology just as window-dressing for social action. Now, obviously, the highly sacramental view expressed by Weston is not going float the boats of most Protestants (most of whom wouldn't think of themselves as worshiping Christ in the tabernacle), but there must be a similar way of stating the call to social action that is rigorous from a more Protestant point of view.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
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S. Bacchus: But if we turn that goal into the primary message of Christianity, how does the mandate of the Church then differ from that of social services?
First, I don't think that there is anything wrong with social services or with secular organizations doing social work, and I believe that an exagerrated attempt to 'not be like them' will lead us in the wrong direction.
We do have something extra though as Christians. I'd say we are inspired by Someone who is on a higher, spiritual level, and we try to let some of this inspiration show through in what we do. Whether people want to pick up on that is up to them.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
We do have something extra though as Christians. I'd say we are inspired by Someone who is on a higher, spiritual level
This feels a bit gnostic - 'higher spiritual level'?
It somehow suggests that the incarnation was NOT fleshly.
The body matters because it has been redeemed. Any 'higher spiritual level' than does not take the flesh seriously is not higher anything. It's lower.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
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leo: This feels a bit gnostic - 'higher spiritual level'?
It somehow suggests that the incarnation was NOT fleshly.
The body matters because it has been redeemed. Any 'higher spiritual level' than does not take the flesh seriously is not higher anything. It's lower.
Oh, it's just a word I was using. Don't worry, I'm not a gnostic and I definitely believe that the incarnation was in the flesh.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Winstonian
Apprentice
# 14801
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Posted
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But if we turn that goal into the primary message of Christianity, how does the mandate of the Church then differ from that of social services?
I'm making this up as I go, here, so forgive me if this is half-baked. It seems to me that the call to social action in the gospels is grounded in the call to love - and that is different from social services . When we meet people's needs out of love, we treat them, as someone above said, with dignity. We don't just feed them (or cloth, or whatever), but we are willing to listen to them, to engage with them, to make a connection. If we are able to behave as though we actually care about who they are, then they might care enough to hear why we are doing what we are doing, but even if not, we have lightened their load and offered not just sustenance, but companionship along the way, even if for a brief time. Mind, I'm better at making that connection with animals than with people, so this is all pretty theoretical, but that is the direction I would like to be able to take.
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Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
In the discussion as a whole I'm "hearing" the concept of incarnation. Physical and spiritual, both, two natures, two focuses, they meld together, one without the other is incomplete, is not who Jesus was/is and not what we are to be as individuals or as a Christian community.
Both feeding the hungry with no hint of spiritual awareness, and inviting people to worship while ignoring their hunger, miss the point, the beingness, of Christianity.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Hmmmmmmmm. Sorry for the sarcasm. We're in this together. @Belle Ringer. Feeding the hungry is as spiritual as it gets. Is the essence of Christianity, of Christ (although we never see Him do it in the gospels humanly). Regardless of whether one ticks belief boxes. At all. They are two a penny. And I too am feeling my way here like Winstonian. I'm feeling my way to accepting all of tradition, all of the language of evangelism, preaching Christ and Him crucified and transcending it because it alone cannot, does not work. But it has to be embraced. Postmodernly. For me.
So, where do we go from here? How? With the broken guys I pray brokenly with on a Friday night, after feeding them? They love to know that God joins them in their otherwise irredeemable brokenness.
With my colleagues? My children? My neighbours? With my neighbours there is some socializing, a party once a quarter if that. But my colleagues? Christ and Him crucified? You need to say the sinner's prayer? Where will you be if you die tonight?
I could only use these gambits ironically. And then what?
How do Roman Catholics evangelize? The Orthodox?
I can't connect from charismatic-evangelical-Protestantism to the social gospel - including being hospitable, neighbourly - or back.
The social gospel is not negotiable. And the fragmented relationships that engenders cannot be moved on and must not be moved on from.
And I don't know how to relate to Jesus myself to be honest. The Jesus of tradition ... doesn't work. Any and all tradition. And I certainly can't sell Him.
Hmmm?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Feeding the hungry is as spiritual as it gets. Is the essence of Christianity, of Christ (although we never see Him do it in the gospels humanly). Regardless of whether one ticks belief boxes. At all.
I think this is a bit incomplete -- Christ said, "Inasmuch as you have it to one of the least of these My brethren, you have done it unto Me." ISTM that the essence of Christianity is not simply feeding the hungry, but seeing the Lord in them as you do.
--Tom Clune
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
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tclune: Christ said, "Inasmuch as you have it to one of the least of these My brethren, you have done it unto Me." ISTM that the essence of Christianity is not simply feeding the hungry, but seeing the Lord in them as you do.
With this I agree.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Absolutely Tom. Which motivates those of us who wouldn't feed the hungry for any other reason I suspect. It's all the more amazing, all the more Christ like in those feeding the hungry who don't see Him.
Again, if the social gospel lacks, what do I add to it? And how? "Turn or burn."?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Again, if the social gospel lacks, what do I add to it? And how? "Turn or burn."?
I think we should be looking for (and then taking!) opportunities to share our faith verbally as we share it through our actions. I certainly don't mean 'Turn or burn', but perhaps something about the hope we have in Jesus. Whatever form of words that works for the kind of person each of us is.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Experience of youth work in both secular and Christian contexts suggests that it's better not to explicitly keep telling the youngsters that you're doing it because you believe in Jesus. They tend to get somewhat turned off and reject Christianity even more than they were already. Being there for them whatever they need at the time has triggered questions that I've been able to answer in a very low key way.
The one or two who "came to Christ" by saying the Sinners Prayer in response to the very explicitly Christian youth worker were far outweighed by the tens or hundreds turned off (I was the sounding board for the moans and groans).
Thinking about it - over 7 or 8 years, I can think of 4 young people who "turned to Christ" and one of those was following a fairly miraculous recovery from taking a drug overdose, when a lot of us were praying. But as last time I saw that youngster they were just out of prison ...
When I've seen explicitly evangelical mission which is trying to convert, those who are supported aren't necessarily that impressed. If I was at the other end I would feel used and patronised. I'd wonder if the people were doing their mission because they cared about me, but because they cared about themselves and their salvation.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Experience of youth work in both secular and Christian contexts suggests that it's better not to explicitly keep telling the youngsters that you're doing it because you believe in Jesus. They tend to get somewhat turned off and reject Christianity even more than they were already. Being there for them whatever they need at the time has triggered questions that I've been able to answer in a very low key way.
Oh yes, definitely. Saying 'I'm here because of the motivation from my faith in Christ' must surely send the accompanying message, '...and not because I actually like what I'm doing here or enjoy spending time with you 'orrible lot!'
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I've heard that kind of comment about a number of church activities - are we doing anything the local Lions Club can't do?
Like, there are secular food pantries and church-run food pantries, is there any difference? Do we offer anything that fills the real need better or speaks to other needs the secular providers don't?
When the beggar asks for money, can we say "silver and gold have I none but I'll give you something better than money" and make such a difference in his life he is leaping with joy?
Or are we just one more handout?
Not saying it's a bad thing for a church to run a food pantry, but is that all we have to offer?
A small town church decided to offer a free dinner every Monday evening, and up to 150 are turning up.
The minister notes that every so often one of the attendees slips into the church to sit there, or asks if they can talk to her privately, or asks if she can give them a bible. Some slip in to a church service, or come along to a bible study/enquirers group. No compulsion... Not what you would expect from, say, a Rotary project.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Absolutely Tom. Which motivates those of us who wouldn't feed the hungry for any other reason I suspect. It's all the more amazing, all the more Christ like in those feeding the hungry who don't see Him.
Again, if the social gospel lacks, what do I add to it? And how? "Turn or burn."?
Martin, without meaning any offence to you, I can't understand a word of any of your posts on this thread. They might as well just be random syllables as far as I'm concerned.
Could you possibly rephrase them in a way that I might understand? To begin with, 'turn or burn' seems to signify something important to you (as if it stood for a major theological idea, perhaps?), but it's not a phrase I've ever come across in any context.
I may just be an idiot (it's been suggested before), but I don't feel I can address your points without understanding them.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
None taken S. Bacchus ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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A.Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 15044
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
A.Pilgrim: Mark's gospel includes a report of Jesus explaining what is sinful, and the list includes two activities where people do things with their naughty bits.
Let's forget on the 10.000 things that Jesus said about caring for your neighbour and concentrate on those two words, shall we?
...
No, I said nothing of the sort.
Jesus's teaching included both instruction on loving ones neighbour and explanation of defiling sin. I think the proportions of the two in his teaching are a little more balanced than 10000 to 2, so how about the suggestion that we all represent that balance accurately?
quote:
If you commit adultery, the problem isn't that you have become less holy and you shouldn't put it right to God. The problem is that you promised to be faithful to someone and you deceived that person.
The problem is both of those, not one or the other.
Angus
Posts: 434 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009
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