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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How politically diverse is your church?
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S. Bacchus
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# 17778
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Posted
I heard recently that, at one point, Enoch Powell and Michael Ramsey worshiped in the same church. I can't imagine they had much in common in other respects (although both supported the decriminalisation of homosexual acts in 1967)! My own church seems to have a majority on the 'soft' of centre left, but with a minority who are really just astonishingly right-wing (I was shocked to hear a group of them discussing General Franco in tones of hushed reverence).
My experience seems to suggest that this type of political diversity within a church is common in the UK, and in Anglican churches outside the UK, but less common in certain other regions. Certainly, in many areas of Bavaria, to be Roman Catholic is to vote for the CSU. In America, it seems that churches are growing more rather than less politically polarized, particularly when it comes to the non-denominational types. Maybe I'm wrong, though. What's your experience?
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
My current parish is about 50% Democrat and 50% Republican. None of them are on the extreme. One guy flirts with the far right. Another guy whose related to the parish but only comes a few times a year is definitely on the far left. I have a small parish.
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
No idea. I have rarely heard politics discussed, and there seems (wisely) a reluctance to push any particular point of view, other than on matters where general agreement is likely. I suspect there is a variety of privately held views, and possibly an over-representation of Lib Dems; but I don't know for sure.
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
I heard recently that, at one point, Enoch Powell and Michael Ramsey worshiped in the same church. I can't imagine they had much in common in other respects (although both supported the decriminalisation of homosexual acts in 1967)! My own church seems to have a majority on the 'soft' of centre left, but with a minority who are really just astonishingly right-wing (I was shocked to hear a group of them discussing General Franco in tones of hushed reverence).
My experience seems to suggest that this type of political diversity within a church is common in the UK, and in Anglican churches outside the UK, but less common in certain other regions. Certainly, in many areas of Bavaria, to be Roman Catholic is to vote for the CSU. In America, it seems that churches are growing more rather than less politically polarized, particularly when it comes to the non-denominational types. Maybe I'm wrong, though. What's your experience?
My church in suburban Orlando, FL has a liberal pair of pastors, but in the parking lot you see all kinds of political stickers. It's ELCA Lutheran, so it is on the theologically liberal end of the spectrum, so maybe the Romney voters know what they're in for.
Despite the Republican lean of the congregation, no one has stormed out when one of the pastors gently suggests that maybe gun control wouldn't be the worst thing, and there a few lesbian couples, one with an adopted daughter. So pretty diverse.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Anglican here, so it doesn't count according to the OP definition ![[Biased]](wink.gif) but I'd say that we are fairly diverse, but not as diverse as what is present in society. We have no anarchists of supporters of BNP that I am aware of.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
My guess is that our congregation mostly share the voting habits and political opinions of their non-Christian neighbours of the same general background.
Which round here would mostly mean voting Labour with a smattering of Greens.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Although the British Methodists are usually remembered today for having contributed more to the Labour Party than Marxism did, the Methodist and general Non-Conformist vote once leaned heavily in favour of the Liberal Party. In fact, some say that the decline of the Liberals is partly due to the decline of Nonconformism.
I've been a Methodist for most of my life and I think there's still a general left of centre emphasis in the Methodist Church. You can never be sure how other people vote, of course, but in my last church I once remember hearing someone pray during a service that the Labour Party would win the upcoming election! Mrs Thatcher's Methodist origins are practically never referred to by Methodists themselves, but I read somewhere that Methodists still thought of David Blunkett (Labour) as one of their own, which may or may not be justified.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
When you have to be worried is when the church is so out of touch politically with the area in which it is set that it is irrelevant.
A middle class Tory supporting congregation on a council housing estate would be as useless as a socialist leaning congregation in the stockbroker belt.
But that the church allows people of different classes and backgrounds to mix is a good thing. After all Jesus' disciples were not a bunch of the same political group now, were they?
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
My guess is that our congregation mostly share the voting habits and political opinions of their non-Christian neighbours of the same general background.
Which round here would mostly mean voting Labour with a smattering of Greens.
I assume this is true of the CofI congregation I worship in, although Irish politics is generally quite hard to fathom as ones party has rather little to do with one's political beliefs. I assume a general centre-right economic outlook and centre-left social outlook would describe the majority of people... But I don't know this for certain and it would certainly never occur to me to ask!
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Two of our (Anglican) congregation stood against each other in the last parliamentary election: one for the Christian Party, the other for the Greens.
Other than that, if you go by the actual constituency result, pretty much everyone would have voted Labour, if they voted at all.
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Forward the New Republic
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
We are an Episcopal conjugation in downtown Atlanta, fairly large by Episcopal standards, but certainly far from being a megachurch. Liturgically, pretty standard MOR. Ethnically, predominantly European-American (probably mostly Southern but a lot of Northerners too) with a fair-sized African-American and Caribbean minority, and a sprinkling of other ethnicities. We also have a real nice age range from young to old.
Using U.S. political terminology, the congregation mean would be at the moderately liberal end of the spectrum, but a diversity from more conservative to more liberal, as far as I can tell (I don't know how far that is). I personally have never ever heard an overtly political sermon in the 6 years I've been there.
The parish has made a conscious decision to remain a downtown church as a key part of its identity, and many parishioners come a fair distance from the suburbs to worship here. We do social ministries such as having a very effective program of services for homeless people, sponsoring a class of youth from an economically deprived youth from elementary school through high school graduation and starting college, service missions to post-Katrina New Orleans (to rehabilitate flood-damaged houses) and to Appalachia. The annual Gay Pride parade passes our church and we make it a point to have a free refreshment stand as a sign of welcome. We had our first same-sex wedding recently with over 300 attending.
As far as a political-party split I couldn't say except that Georgia Republicans seem so extreme that I can't see too many members in that camp, although as far as voting for Romney or Obama that split could be closer. The only political split in the EfM group I was, of which I was aware, in was in 2008 between Obama and Clinton.
[ 22. September 2013, 20:31: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Like blackbeard, I have no idea - politics are rarely discussed. Our MP is a Lib Dem, as is our local councillor, our constituency MSP is S.N.P. and I'd guess our congregation is in line with the wider community.
I'd be astonished if we had many Labour voters, as I'd assume most of the left-of-centre would be S.N.P. rather than Labour.
I know we've got some Tory voters, but they'd describe themselves as "old" Tory, i.e. pre-Thatcher Tories.
There's lots of support for e.g. the local food bank, but I'm not sure if that influences how people vote or not.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
My guess is that our congregation mostly share the voting habits and political opinions of their non-Christian neighbours of the same general background.
Which round here would mostly mean voting Labour with a smattering of Greens.
I dread to ask. I think Ken is right, which probably means in our context that the more middle-class members would tend to soft left/Green, with fairly liberal social attitudes, while the more working class ones would be either Old Labour/socially conservative or (which is why I would dread asking) Daily Mail/UKIP. No Sun readers in Liverpool thank God.
On the DH issues I think Christians are more likely to be influenced by their faith, or hearing sermons, than the prevailing view among their neighbours. So in a 'liberal' church in a conservative neighbourhood it will be one way; a conservative church in a left-leaning neighbourhood it will be the other. But that's just my hunch.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
I should probably say that our parish is located in a constituency that tends to swing from Conservative to Lib. Dem. All the surrounding constituencies are safe Conservative seats, though. The County Council has a Conservative plurality, with about equal numbers of Lib Dem. and UKIP councilors (I myself find the UKIP presence really worrying) and only a small handful of Labour councilors. The combined number of Labour and Lib. Dem councilors wouldn't equal the number of Conservatives. 'We' returned four Conservative MEPs, with one each from Labour, UKIP and the Lib. Dems.
Given that, I think we probably have fewer Conservatives than the local area, and considerably fewer UKIP voters. In fact, I don't think know any UKIP members in or outside of church, although I know a fair few Conservatives who cast wistful looks in their direction.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
My guess is that our congregation mostly share the voting habits and political opinions of their non-Christian neighbours of the same general background.
Which round here would mostly mean voting Labour with a smattering of Greens.
And most of our congregation are probably on the centre-right politically, but liberal on social issues. As an inclusive church, glbt people are welcome, and when the Anglican rector of an eastern suburbs parish attacked a now retired High Court judge who is openly gay, there was strong dissent, even from retired bank managers, widows of graziers and the like. Madame and I are on the left, and there's one lol in her mid-eighties, twinset and pearls type, who is rather further left than we are.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
My Bible study bunch are from a Non-D church where it's assumed all Christians are Republicans - voting guides passed out with the sermon etc, illegal to outright recommend a political party, but somehow on all the "important" issues (outlawing abortion for all reasons, eliminating welfare and other public support programs, opposing making medical care affordably available to all, etc) who is "on the correct side" is always the Republican candidates.
Local Methodist church, heavily Republican, Democrats get teased.
TEC, I'll guess 50/50 but don't know.
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
In America, it seems that churches are growing more rather than less politically polarized, particularly when it comes to the non-denominational types. Maybe I'm wrong, though. What's your experience?
Hard to say. Folks try to stay away from talking about it.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
Our parish is extremely diverse politically. I think that's fairly typical for Orthodox churches in the US. There are enough Protestants that folks can sort themselves both theologically and politically. But if you're Orthodox, there's likely to be only one Orthodox church in driving distance -- and if there's more than one, we tend to sort by language rather than by politics.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
Our TEC shack is reasonably diverse. We're a fairly wealthy suburb which tends to swing a couple of points Republicanwards in elections, and our congregation reflects that. We have people on both sides of the abortion issue, both sides of the gun issue, and almost every side in the Middle East.
We have gay couples, and we have couples who recommended to us a book on how to raise your boy right, so he doesn't turn in to "one of those".
We have had a woman priest, so no longer have any anti-ordination of women types.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
I have absolutely no idea, although I can make a guess for some people, of course. It is something never discussed (I suppose the nearest was talk of some people going to the march against the Iraq war however many years ago it was, but that seemed pretty non party political to me).
Belle Ringer's casual:
quote:
voting guides passed out with the sermon etc,
I find absolutely shocking, even if, as she carries on to say, it is illegal recommend how one votes.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
Cambridge has a left wing Lib Dem MP, it historically has Liberal or Labour MPs, whilst surrounded by a sea of Blues. My NFI church in Cambridge is socially and racially very mixed and I would expect most of the congregation to be Liberal or Labour (probably a lot of Labour tactically voting Liberal) with a handful of Conservatives.
The parish church in my village was definitely a Conservative stronghold, demonstrating the great divide between the old village where it sits and the council estate where I live which votes Lib Dem.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
Cambridge has a left wing Lib Dem MP, it historically has Liberal or Labour MPs, ....
Really? Wikipedia suggests that in the period since 1900, Cambridge has had a Tory MP for 76 years. Labour took it in 1992, and the Lib Dems in 2005, but I remember Shirley Williams, who you'd have thought would have been a natural kind of person to be MP for Cambridge, failing to get the seat, despite a very hard fought campaign, in 1987.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
It will often depend on where the church is. One church I was at for a number of years was in what is described as "blue ribbon on a pig" country, yet the church (pentecostal) was far more liberal than might be expected if it were representative of the local electorate.
As with just about any church, there were one or two families of right-wing nutters, who thought that being a christian meant ranting against evolution and homosexuality.
There were a few very rich families, who were right-wing in the more economic sense, determined to advocate low taxes under the pretence that if they kept more of the excess of their pay over and above the cost of living, then they had more to give.
Yet the heart of the church was really split between Lib Dem and Labour. It was this group that started up the local foodbank and a homeless shelter.
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
One thing that has often struck me in the UK is that a theological liberal might well be a political conservative, whereas theological conservatives may very well be political Liberals or socialists. This doesn't seem to happen so much in the US - or perhaps that just shows my ignorance?
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
When you have to be worried is when the church is so out of touch politically with the area in which it is set that it is irrelevant.
A middle class Tory supporting congregation on a council housing estate would be as useless as a socialist leaning congregation in the stockbroker belt.
But that the church allows people of different classes and backgrounds to mix is a good thing. After all Jesus' disciples were not a bunch of the same political group now, were they?
Congregations are often socially different from the surrounding community. This might be down to age, gender ratios, ethnicity, level of education, income, or whether the congregation is mostly local or comes in from another area.
To some extent this is a good thing - after all, it might add some diversity to an otherwise quite homogeneous area. And unless we're talking about political extremes I'm not sure why the political tendencies of a congregation need to prevent them from making a positive contribution to their local environment. No political party has a monopoly on caring, and no Christian is excused from the command to love their neighbour.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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David
Complete Bastard
# 3
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Posted
I go to the church that was started at my children's school. It is nominally Sydney Anglican. By nominal I mean that they are part of the Sydney dioscese but don't understand that this makes them idiots.
Anyway.
Me, my family, the assistant pastor and his family, and one other family who are friends of ours, are very left wing.
Everyone else is a right-wing nutjob.
You get that.
[ 23. September 2013, 11:50: Message edited by: David ]
Posts: 3815 | From: Redneck Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2001
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Ahleal V
Shipmate
# 8404
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Posted
What I find quite puzzling is that whilst I am towards the right (but not madly so), the majority of the Christians I know tend to be on the left - but Left-wing politics seems so antithetical to Christianity I would find it very hard to be an easy bedfellow.
Of course, that's not to say that the Tory party is the party of Church and Queen, but both LibDem and Labour seem to have a contempt for Christianity, and it leaves me rather uneasy.
x
AV
Posts: 499 | From: English Spires | Registered: Aug 2004
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
One thing that has often struck me in the UK is that a theological liberal might well be a political conservative, whereas theological conservatives may very well be political Liberals or socialists.
That makes perfect sense to me. I know one church which goes on about being inclusive, which means not criticising the local Tory/Masonic mafia - because we must accept everyone.
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And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
But there is nothing necessarily antithetical to Christianity in left-wing politics (I would maintain - though I am probably centre-right myself). Wasn't it always said that the Labour party owed "more to Methodism than to Marx"?
You could certainly argue that Christians should be more sympathetic to the state than to the market. After all, "give to Caesar what is Caesar's", but "you cannot serve God and Mammon"...
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ahleal V:
What I find quite puzzling is that whilst I am towards the right (but not madly so), the majority of the Christians I know tend to be on the left - but Left-wing politics seems so antithetical to Christianity I would find it very hard to be an easy bedfellow.
Really? Can you give examples? I've always been struck by the congruence between left-wing ideas and Christian concepts of equality, fraternity, community and concern for others.
[ 23. September 2013, 12:08: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ahleal V:
What I find quite puzzling is that whilst I am towards the right (but not madly so), the majority of the Christians I know tend to be on the left - but Left-wing politics seems so antithetical to Christianity I would find it very hard to be an easy bedfellow.
Of course, that's not to say that the Tory party is the party of Church and Queen, but both LibDem and Labour seem to have a contempt for Christianity, and it leaves me rather uneasy.
x
AV
My view (from the left) is that there are aspects of every party's policies that are in tune with Christianity and some that are not. We have a dispiriting number of literalists in our church who are on the right of centre unless some part of the public service they depend on is in the firing line.
I have been a member of a few churches over the years and they are rarely as diverse (or inclusive) as they like to think they are.
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Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
But there is nothing necessarily antithetical to Christianity in left-wing politics (I would maintain - though I am probably centre-right myself). Wasn't it always said that the Labour party owed "more to Methodism than to Marx"?
You could certainly argue that Christians should be more sympathetic to the state than to the market. After all, "give to Caesar what is Caesar's", but "you cannot serve God and Mammon"...
I always get worried when I hear people state that christianity
is left-wing or is right-wing.
Rather, I think christian belief stands on its own two feet, entailing some socio-political & economic consequences. Only then do you see who else happens to be standing near you. For my part, I find myself on the left.
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
Cambridge has a left wing Lib Dem MP, it historically has Liberal or Labour MPs, ....
Really? Wikipedia suggests that in the period since 1900, Cambridge has had a Tory MP for 76 years. Labour took it in 1992, and the Lib Dems in 2005, but I remember Shirley Williams, who you'd have thought would have been a natural kind of person to be MP for Cambridge, failing to get the seat, despite a very hard fought campaign, in 1987.
My apologies for not being clearer, it has not been Tory for over 20 years, despite being surrounded by Tory areas (my village is on the borders and we used to have Andrew Lansley as our MP until recent boundary changes). Lib Dems have solidified support in recent years, though the backlash against them has started to change voting patterns in local elections (my area went Tory last year).
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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ahleal V:
What I find quite puzzling is that whilst I am towards the right (but not madly so), the majority of the Christians I know tend to be on the left - but Left-wing politics seems so antithetical to Christianity I would find it very hard to be an easy bedfellow.
Christianity doesn't fit into the dichomotous right/left politics we have in the West. I am always wary of those who claim otherwise.
Jesus wasn't a politician.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ahleal V:
Of course, that's not to say that the Tory party is the party of Church and Queen, but both LibDem and Labour seem to have a contempt for Christianity, and it leaves me rather uneasy.
Considering the huge amount of input the Methodist church had during the establishment of the Labour party, I find your viewpoint rather odd.
Like Karl, I find fitting socialist politics into a Christian life eminently achievable.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
IIRC the British Social Attitudes Survey 2012 had some questions about religious belief/ practice which they cross-referenced to political beliefs. Lib Dem supporters were least likely to believe in/ practice a religion: but then, the old Nonconformist/Liberal connection notwithstanding, there's much less of a tradition of deriving Liberalism from Christianity than there is of deriving Conservatism or Socialism from Christanity. Indeed, liberalism (which is present within all three main parties, in different forms) is well suited to being the political creed of the rational, autonomous individual.
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
My church has everything from people who are fans of Alan Jones (right-wing talkback radio host) to people who vote Green.
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Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Our church includes a provincial Tory cabinet minister and myself, a member of the NDP who is in the left-wing of the party. Of course, we have every shade of politics in between.
[ 23. September 2013, 13:23: Message edited by: Caissa ]
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Ahleal V:
Of course, that's not to say that the Tory party is the party of Church and Queen, but both LibDem and Labour seem to have a contempt for Christianity, and it leaves me rather uneasy.
Considering the huge amount of input the Methodist church had during the establishment of the Labour party, I find your viewpoint rather odd.
Like Karl, I find fitting socialist politics into a Christian life eminently achievable.
I'd agree and I'd say appropriate rather than achievable. And since the Roman Catholic Church supports pacifism, unilateral nuclear disarmament and the abolition of the death penalty, they're pretty well a bunch of pinkos as well.
[ 23. September 2013, 13:28: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
My church has everything from people who are fans of Alan Jones (right-wing talkback radio host) to people who vote Green.
Anyone mis-read that as Aled Jones?
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Cathscats
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# 17827
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Posted
We have everything from very outspoken Scottish Nationalist (vote yes) to would-be landed aristocracy, who are very conservative (vote no). Voting here just now being all about the independence referendum. The two extremes are those who mainly engage with each other - why I don't know, unless they both want a real challenge. As a church we are hosting a community even to help people think about the issues behind the sound bites, so they can ask intelligent questions should a canvasser ever appear on the doorstep.
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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
Posts: 176 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013
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Stetson
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# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
My church has everything from people who are fans of Alan Jones (right-wing talkback radio host) to people who vote Green.
Anyone mis-read that as Aled Jones?
Before I saw MSHB's location, I thought he had meant to write Alex Jones, the right-wing libertarian conspiracy theorist based in Texas. Not sure what sort of church he'd have a following in.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Alaric the Goth
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# 511
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Ahleal V:
Of course, that's not to say that the Tory party is the party of Church and Queen, but both LibDem and Labour seem to have a contempt for Christianity, and it leaves me rather uneasy.
Considering the huge amount of input the Methodist church had during the establishment of the Labour party, I find your viewpoint rather odd.
Like Karl, I find fitting socialist politics into a Christian life eminently achievable.
I'm vaguely aware of the Methodist roots of the Labour Party, the trouble is that virtually all the countries of the Eastern Block and China/Far East that became self-styled 'socialist republics' did (in one or two cases still do) more killing and persecuting of Christians than just about anyone else in history.
And here in the UK I remember the student politics of the 1980s. Now my anti-abortion views have softened somewhat, but I stll can't get out of my head the memory of the Labour/left wing students shouting in (almost) unison "Free abortion on demand, a woman's right to choocse!" On this and other issues those of the left seem to always line up against 'traditional Christian' moral stances.
Not to say that there aren't problems with 'the Right' either..."the love of money is the root of all evil" springs to mind.
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stetson
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# 9597
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Posted
quote:
I'm vaguely aware of the Methodist roots of the Labour Party, the trouble is that virtually all the countries of the Eastern Block and China/Far East that became self-styled 'socialist republics' did (in one or two cases still do) more killing and persecuting of Christians than just about anyone else in history.
Well, according to that logic, Buddhists, Muslims, and old-style Confucians shouldn't support left-wing parties either. Because Mao killed members of those groups(or at least the devout ones) in record numbers as well.
For that matter, gays and pro-choicers shouldn't support the Labour Party. Because, post-Lenin, the USSR outlawed abortion and re-criminalized homosexuality(the last policy remaining unreversed under Khruschev), and their satellite states mostly followed suit. Cuba was actually locking up gays until a few years ago.
[ 23. September 2013, 14:58: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
While there were loads of Methodists involved in the early days of the Labour Party I think they got their name into the "More Methodism than Marxism" line because of the alliteration. The most prominent denominations in the early days were probably Presbyterians and Congregationalists.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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pererin
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# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ahleal V:
Of course, that's not to say that the Tory party is the party of Church and Queen,
If only it were. That is a sort of Conservatism I could easily subscribe to. Instead we get Callmedave trying to be a peculiarly inept combination of Green and Brown.
But back on topic, churchgoing seems to be such a minority pursuit here that it encompasses devotees of both St Maggie and St Nye.
[ 23. September 2013, 19:29: Message edited by: pererin ]
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012
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S. Bacchus
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# 17778
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Posted
I think, though, that there is a very real and very marked anti-religious bias in leftwing groups in the UK today (regardless of any past unity of Methodism and the Labour Party, although note E.P. Thompson's intense antipathy toward Methodism). The Liberal Democrats seem to have tried to move away from that sort of thing on an institutional level, with varying success. Of course, Brown and Blair are both very religious, in rather different ways, and I think that the Labour Party on a whole is not anti-religion (although I believe Ed Miliband is an atheist, as of course is Nick Clegg), but many groups to the left of it definitely are.
Conservatives, on the other hand, seem to give religion at least lip service at least much of the time.
I personally find it very hard to associate too much with people on the left because I'm a monarchist and a supporter of the House of Lords. Now, neither the Labour nor the Lib. Dem. parties are officially republican, but their grassroots movements seem to be very much so. I find that I have the most in common with the old fashioned 'wet' type of Tory (more Disraeli than Thatcher), and with a certain type of culturally conservative Lib. Dem.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
I would say my congregation has a wide tent when it comes to politics. My son used to say I was so liberal I make Karl Marx look like a tea partier--which I cannot deny. Yet, in my congregation we have the chairperson of the county Republican party. I sit in study with a very conservative young man who identifies himself as libertarian. One of the young men I have mentored these past couple of years is strongly pro gun rights (I have even gone shooting with him). Yes we have our disagreements, but there is still respect and brotherly love between us.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
I think they got their name into the "More Methodism than Marxism" line because of the alliteration. The most prominent denominations in the early days were probably Presbyterians and Congregationalists.
"More Presbterian than progressive"? "More Congregationalist than Communist"?
And, tangent, but since Sober Preacher's Kid doesn't seem to be around on this thread, I'll step up to the plate and report that, in Canada, the big names associated with the Social Gospel tendency in the CCF/NDP have been...
J.S. Woodsworth(Methodist)
William Irivne(Methodist)
Tommy Douglas(Baptist, and probably the most ifluential socialist in Canada)
Stanley Knowles(United, Methodist roots)
Though more recently, there seem to have been a few Anglican clerics associated with the NDP, and at least one Catholic priest who served as an MP in the 80s. One thing I'll note is that, unlike the British Labour Party, the NDP has strong roots in rural Canada. The people I listed above all come from the prairie provinces, though a few represented urban ridings.
An unfortunate fact about these guys is that many of them had some flirtation with the eugenics movement, though, with the possible exception of Irvine, none of them ever worked toward its actual implementation.
[ 23. September 2013, 20:15: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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