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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Fear
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
The event that prompts this thread (which I intend to be a general discussion rather than about my experience specifically) is that last week I found out that I need heart surgery next month to replace a failing aortic valve. The information provided in these days of informed consent is somewhat unnerving: the idea of having one's chest sliced open and being kept alive by tubes plugged into one's neck and groin while a surgeon replaces a bit of one's stopped heart is not the most appealing of mental images. I'm told that the operation has a mortality rate of 2% and a probable recovery time of 6 to 12 weeks. So, while it's not likely to be the most unpleasant experience I'll ever have, I'm not exactly looking forward to it.
I am aware of the effect that this news has had on my state of mind over the last few days. I have found it harder to focus on work, and harder to make decisions. I have tended to, not exactly forget, but put out of my mind, appointments or commitments more than a day or so away. I can feel definite physical effect: I'm more flustered, on edge, and prone to occasional nervous trembling and stomach aches. I've not been able to go to sleep before 1 or 2 am on most nights. I've been more irritable - not to the extent of expressing more anger, but certainly being more away of temptations to become impatient. The word for this complex of responses, I suppose, is 'fear'.
How far should this response be tempered by my faith? I'm an orthodox (I hope) Christian. I believe is an all-powerful, all-loving God, I believe he has forgiven my sins through the death and resurrection of Jesus (and I believe those things really, physically, happened, not that they are some sort of spiritual metaphor). I think that I have a happy and fulfilled eternity awaiting me, and I am not especially beset by any real doubts about that. So I can, on the level of conscious thought at least, maintain a reasonable composure. But it would be untrue to say that I was unafraid, because clearly on another level I am.
So faith would appear not to do away with fear. Should it? There are certainly some "why are you afraid?" passages of scripture that suggest that in some cases at least it ought to. There does seem to be a contradiction in saying "I trust God and I'm scared". If you trust that an all powerful and benevolent father is working things for the best, what is there to be scared of?
It could be, I suppose, that faith is meant to work on the conscious-thought level only: believing in God won't block the emotion of fear: being a believer won't stop you from feeling hungry or tired, even when you are persuaded that for religious reasons it's right to go without food or sleep for a time, so perhaps the same applies to fear. But it still seems to me that admitting to fear comes closer to admitting a fault, an insufficiency of faith, than admitting to hunger or tiredness ever would.
Which is another question: do we (as Christians, or at least, as members of societies heavily influenced by Christianity) make it too hard to admit to being afraid? There are good reasons to control fear: maintaining an outer composure can be a duty to others (I have two children - they are not worried about my impending surgery mainly, I think, because I do not appear worried), as well as being a good practical step to maintaining some inner peace of mind; but that doesn't explain my extreme reticence to admit to others, and even to myself, that the prospect of pain, inconvenience, helplessness and indignity (together with a very small but not quite negligible risk of death) actually scares me. Why should I be so reluctant? Those are unpleasant things - and I could count on almost anyone sympathising my desire to avoid them - so why is saying "I'm scared" a difficult thing to do?
Has Christianity (or my experience of it) got this wrong? Should we be encouraging one another to greater fortitude - or giving one another freedom to admit to greater fragility? Is it possible to try to do both?
What is the proper Christian response to fear?
[ 22. September 2013, 19:56: Message edited by: Eliab ]
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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Anglo Catholic Relict
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# 17213
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Posted
I am sorry you have this operation to face, Eliab, but grateful for the medical knowledge and ability that makes it possible.
I have an anxiety disorder that makes fear a normal part of life. I am afraid most days, of most things. When my d goes out in the car, it fills me with apprehension and dread. Really there are no words to describe it.
The Bible says that perfect love casts out fear. I am afraid that my experience is that perfect fear casts out just about everything, and leaves us very much as you describe; incapable of functioning at more than a basic level, and very often exhausted just standing still.
I hope all goes well for you.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
[ 22. September 2013, 20:33: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Eliab: So faith would appear not to do away with fear. Should it?
I don't know, to be fearful about these things seems rather normal to me. But one thing that you can be sure of, is that God will be with you during this operation.
My prayers are with you.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
Not qualified to offer opinion on the proper Christian response. But fear is not a completely controlled response and faith is rarely 100%. Also, no matter one's belief system or strength of belief, there still exists a factor of unknown. And we, as a species, do not tolerate the unknown well.
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To your experience.
I have been in hospital with the real possibility of dying. I was fairly quickly in the operating theatre for the initial operation, and was in more shock than fear. A second operation was required after my body had sufficiently healed from the first. I can tell you I felt all that you do in the space between. Meditation helped, so too, with prayer added, it might help you.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Should we be encouraging one another to greater fortitude - or giving one another freedom to admit to greater fragility? Is it possible to try to do both?
We should be giving more freedom to admit to fragility, most definitely. The interpretation of the teaching on fear is is dangerous, in that it encourages a certain macho rejection of all weakness or worry.
I think the passages about fear are really talking about worry and anxiety over the unknown future. It says "don't worry over tomorrow and what tomorrow might bring" because tomorrow will have enough worries that it does bring without needing any more. In the times that it was written, when death, suffering or ruin were ever present possibilities, it was saying don't focus on them.
For you, I think it is perfectly reasonable to be fearful about an impending operation, especially such a major one. The Christian response, IMO, is to say don't worry about all of the small possibilities, because they should not be the focus of your life at this time. The mortality rate of 2% is something that you don't need to worry about, and even if you don't survive, that is in Gods hands too.
So concern, fear, over an impending and known traumatic experience seems perfectly reasonable - if you were not, I would be concerned that you were repressing your feelings. But terror, or undue concern over the possibility of serious problems should not be your focus. God will take care, whatever.
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Which is another question: do we (as Christians, or at least, as members of societies heavily influenced by Christianity) make it too hard to admit to being afraid?
Let me start by saying that I've just lit a candle for you in our prayer corner, and said a prayer for you.
I do think that we, as Christians, make it too hard to admit to being afraid. We also make it too hard to admit to being confused, lonely, sad, weak, helpless, or anything else that might make us look bad to anyone else. That's not because we have so much faith, of course. I think it's because we think that if other people know what our lives are really like, they might think we're confused, lonely, sad, weak, or helpless (which we are) and therefore not admire us or love us. So we go on pretending that we're already perfect, and we never get the help we need (from God or each other) to get there.
quote:
Has Christianity (or my experience of it) got this wrong? Should we be encouraging one another to greater fortitude - or giving one another freedom to admit to greater fragility? Is it possible to try to do both?
I think we have to do both. If you want to learn to bake bread, or ride a bicycle, or do calculus, pretending you already know how doesn't get you very far. You have to accept that you don't know how to do it. You might know a little bit already, and that's good. But to master a skill, you have to know what you don't know, so you can learn to do what you want to do.
I think it's the same thing here. If you want to learn to face fearful things with courage and equanimity, I think you have to start out by saying, "I'm afraid."
quote:
What is the proper Christian response to fear?
I'd be afraid to speak of "the" proper Christian response. I don't think there's one right way for a Christian to face fear.
There's a story I've heard, about a monastery on the coast of Ireland centuries ago. The abbot was warned in a dream that they were going to be attacked by pirates on a certain day, and that everyone there would be killed. And the abbot called his monks together, and told them his dream, and told them to pray for the courage they needed to either leave quickly or die well.
If you're facing a fearful situation, and you're not afraid, then either you're a fool, or you're a saint, or you're guilty of prelest. The first and the last are more likely, I'm afraid. For those of us who have not yet approached theosis, the Christian thing to do, I think, is to acknowledge your weakness, acknowledge your fear, and then pray for the courage to do whatever it is you need to do. That's what our Lord did at Gethsemane. I think we can follow his example.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
Fear is normal, and fear of physical pain or damage even more so. It is a normal human feeling, like many others and I believe that the faith God gives us does not stop us feeling things, like some kind of robot.
Yet all natural things can be both good or bad depending on how we face them, or our reaction to them. Fear can lead people to do many stupid things. Christian faith should give us the strength and the grace of God to deal with the fear in a natural but ultimately good way.
Firstly fear can draw us closer to God, reminding us of our mortality and our Lord, it can lead us to a stronger awareness of the value of the life and health we do have, it can make us more able to empathise with others suffering in similar ways.
However, without faith fear can lead us to hide in delusions, to lash out in anger at those trying to help us, or to turn away from God with a feeling of betrayal.
In the Bible there are passages about being without fear, but I think there are two types of fear, there is intellectual fear of the unknown, or of feeling insecure or weak, which God tells us we no longer need to feel, because the reason for such fear is removed. But there is the animalistic fear of immediate pain, of real suffering, and physical damage. This is based on reasons that are very real and we would be stupid or even inhuman not to feel scared at them.
But even with this type of fear, we can take comfort, knowing that in the midst of our real terror, God is in control. It may not stop us feeling fear now, but it gives us hope that the fear will end.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
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Polly Plummer
Shipmate
# 13354
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Posted
Eliab, I had an operation last year (less serious than yours) and was absolutely terrified for the couple of months between arranging it and going into hospital. There was a small possibility of a bad result, but I think the fear was just of not being in control, and of people doing things to me while I was unconscious.
I tried to put it out of my mind, but ended up having several near misses while driving, and having my handbag stolen because I wasn't concentrating on looking after it.
I found that the way to cope was to get it into my conscious mind, to admit to myself and to God how frightened I was, to pray for courage and strength and to tell other people about it and get them to pray too.
Being frightened is part of being human, and many of us in the western world are lucky not to feel it more often.
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MrsBeaky
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# 17663
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Posted
I sometimes think that I am afraid of being afraid...it is such a holistic experience as you have described with symptoms in every realm and it can be overwhelming.
The conclusion I have reached is simply that God knows and understands and so should we as followers of Jesus. To be human is not a sin. To fear is to be human. To keep going in spite of fear is a testimony in and of itself. And the fear faced by a fellow human being is an opportunity for us to be Christ to that person and walk with them as they see fit.
You will be in my prayers
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
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Herrick
Shipmate
# 15226
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Posted
Eliab I wish you all the best outcomes with your treatment and recovery.
Fear and faith are not total opposites.
I have never had a doubt that there is some beautiful purpose behind and within creation. However I was diagnosed with stage three cancer of the throat a few months ago and am currently undergoing chemotherapy and radiation treatment. It is unpleasant to say the least. My point is that, even though i profess faith and belief, I have been tormented by the most dreadful, horrifying dreams some nights. I have woken up in a panic, shaking, gasping and have been heard to yell out while asleep.
Within my being there is a deep and visceral fear, despite what I profess. I was unaware of it before, but it is more real than my imaginings have ever been. I am grateful, in a perverse way, that I have learnt this much more about myself.
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A careless shoestring in whose tie
I see a wild civility
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Best wishes for the op. I think you said something quite profound towards the end of your OP, about vulnerability and strength being connected. I think this is true.
It's those who are not afraid who would worry me, and also anyone who says that fear is wrong somehow. We are all vulnerable, throughout life, although sometimes we pretend otherwise.
If we can show this vulnerability to others, and this includes fear, we are more prepared to face life. Think of the willow and the oak.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
I found out that I need heart surgery next month to replace a failing aortic valve.
Good luck, and I will pray for you.
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
So faith would appear not to do away with fear. Should it? There are certainly some "why are you afraid?" passages of scripture that suggest that in some cases at least it ought to. There does seem to be a contradiction in saying "I trust God and I'm scared". If you trust that an all powerful and benevolent father is working things for the best, what is there to be scared of? It could be, I suppose, that faith is meant to work on the conscious-thought level only: believing in God won't block the emotion of fear: being a believer won't stop you from feeling hungry or tired, even when you are persuaded that for religious reasons it's right to go without food or sleep for a time, so perhaps the same applies to fear. But it still seems to me that admitting to fear comes closer to admitting a fault, an insufficiency of faith, than admitting to hunger or tiredness ever would.
I could probably find the original, but perhaps my recall from memory will do. I remember reading a Buddhist Sutra which compared the enlightened person under pain / threat / danger to a tree: the leaves and branches may shake in the wind, but the roots remain firm and the trunk solid. From what I hear from you, this is the case for you here. You are not actually questioning your faith over this. Your remain rooted in Christ, and solid in your faith. All that is happening is that the leaves and branches, your "everyday mental operations", are ruffled and shaken. But why assign any big spiritual significance to that?
Simply put, you are over-thinking this. The only actual spiritual threat here is you worrying that you should respond better as a Christian. It is you scolding yourself for not achieving some kind of Clint Eastwood state of mind based on your faith, which is a (marginal) threat to your faith. The fear itself is not shaking your faith, apparently. It is merely shaking you around a bit. Let that be as it may be, and hold fast to what you believe and profess: that come what may, the embrace of a loving Father is waiting for you.
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Those are unpleasant things - and I could count on almost anyone sympathising my desire to avoid them - so why is saying "I'm scared" a difficult thing to do?
It's more a guy-thing than a Christian thing. Our Lord sweated blood for fear in Gethsemane. Actually, unsurprisingly that's a perfect illustration of what I meant. Look at Christ there. On one hand the abject terror of Someone heading with seeing eyes towards crucifixion. On the other hand, there is the absolute firmness and solidity of His commitment to the Father. They exist at the same time. In the storm of His coming death, maybe all leaves got stripped off and the branches, too. A reduction to the core. But the trunk did not break and the roots did not give. So, say "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done" with Christ. This is mastering your fear, even if otherwise your "soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death."
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
What is the proper Christian response to fear?
To follow Christ, carrying the cross of fear.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
Last week I did some very interesting training on stress management (I was, up until recently, occupying one of the most stressful posts in the firm, working for a partner who has what the French rather charmingly describe as a “character problem”. I have just been moved to another department ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) and neatly eliminated the source of my stress).
Some interesting/useful things I learned: the feeling of being stressed out always begins in an emotional reaction. This is what sets your mind off running, and the body will also follow (accelerated cardiac rhythm and breathing, sweaty palms, blood rises to your face etc. etc.) but the emotion comes first, and it happens very, very fast. The primary emotions are these: fear, anger, sadness, disgust, surprise and joy. The emotion at the back of many stress reactions is fear, or its various subsets (anxiety etc.). Other stress reactions are caused by diverse manifestations of anger or sadness and all their little cousins.
What the trainer pointed out is that the emotions of fear, sadness, whatever aren’t necessarily bad in themselves – they serve a worthwhile and useful function signalling to us that something is wrong. Usually being afraid is a response to some perceived danger and the emotional response (fear) is the signal that we need to do something about it. Emotions aren’t really good or bad, they just are. The thing is to recognise the emotion (which actually defuses it to some degree) and then manage it in a sensible and useful way. Is this reaction reasonable? Is it proportionate? What can I do about this situation? Can I change anything so that it wouldn’t be so threatening anymore?
Another point I found very interesting: a psychological principle called “messages contraignants” (not sure how to translate this – “restrictive messages”?) These are messages that we receive from our culture and upbringing that become internalised and that we then start repeating to ourselves. Consequently even when no one else is putting pressure on us, we may well apply the pressure on our own. There are five main ones in Western culture: be perfect (sois parfait), be strong (sois fort), hurry up (dépêche-toi), make an effort/work harder (fais des efforts and please everyone/make people happy (fais plaisir). Men, in particular, are often subject to the message “be strong”. This makes it difficult for them to admit to being scared, even when being scared is a perfectly sensible and normal reaction to a dangerous or threatening situation.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
The primary emotions are these: fear, anger, sadness, disgust, surprise and joy.
Tangent: I think those are the primary facial expressions. Whether they are the only primary emotions I am not sure. (For example, are envy or hatred just compounds of anger and disgust? What about jealousy?)
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Eliab.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
The Christian response to fear: lament.
Hebrews 5 tells us that Christ's reverence to God expressed itself in loud cries and tears. Certainly, the Garden of Gethsemane is part of this, but these may well have featured in other parts of Christ's life (the silence of the Gospels tells us little). It won't make you any less afraid, but it should mean something to know that you are with Christ in your fearfulness. It doesn't make the cross any less cross-like to know how close it is to resurrection.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I have been thinking that the process of fear is very much like the process of death and dying or of grief. I know there are many approaches to this, but I will use the Kubler Ross Model to keep it simple.
First there is the shock--I am going to have a drastic operation! My heart is not working right. Oh my God.
The next period is the numbness. Things seem unreal. This can't be happening.
Next, bargaining. Is there another way. If I do this do I have to do that.
Depression comes next. This is not a bad stage. It actually helps you come to terms with what has to happen.
Then acceptance. The inevitable will take place.
I would add hope. The felling that things will be all right in the end.
Fear is a natural response to the unknown. You are fortunate, though, that you have people who care for you and are praying for you. They want to support you as best they can. You just have to let them know what you need to get through this.
To my knowledge, no operation is without risk. But nothing in life is without risk. If you drive a car, there is always the risk that you might have a crash resulting in injury or even death.
I guess I would encourage you to look at the alternative. If you do not replace the heart valve you will find your chances of continued health greatly diminished. You are probably already experiencing that now. Not replacing the valve will shorten your life even more.
On the other hand, there are benefits to having the valve replaced: your health will be restored and your energy will increase tremendously. Your life expectancy will also increase substantially.
Hopefully you will get to the point of acceptance and hope. Here is where you just have to say, "Lord, I place my life in your hands." Trust him to give you the surgeon skilled enough to complete the surgery successfully. Trust the surgeon to do what is necessary. Trust everyone involved in your care to see you through to the other side."
Remember, God will see you through this.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Karl Kroenen
Apprentice
# 16822
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Posted
To me, it's the fear of not being in control. Under general anaesthetic you are 100% at the mercy of someone else. Same in a passenger plane, you don't know if the pilot had a massive row with his wife that morning or fell off the wagon - you just have to decide where to put your trust. That's why I don't like going in lifts - the technology is totally out of my control. Even felatio unnerves me (although not to the point that say no) as Mrs Kroenen could bite it off if the mood took her (or at least give it a damn good try). I'm a crap passenger in a car too, I keep stamping my foot down on an imaginery brake.
Then again, maybe I'm just a control freak with trust issues.
I guess the best any of us can hope for is that we die peacefully in our sleep. That's what happened to my Grandad - mind you it scared the shit out of the dentist.
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God loves you so much that He created Hell, just in case you don't love Him back.
Posts: 34 | From: Bristol | Registered: Dec 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Fear and threat either destroys or teaches. The destruction is obvious: sleep, well being, mood, sanity.
The teaching: immediacy and living for the goodness that might be found in any given moment.
We don't get fear thrust upon us to teach that, it's just part of the world, but it isn't neutral. I don't know many of us who've managed middle age without some life threatening and changing circumstances. Leaning on others has helped me the most. Including the typing-friends on these boards.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
Thank you all for your prayers and support. There's a lot said here that's been helpful to me and I hope to respond to it when I get some time to do so.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
I don't have any words of wisdom to offer, but
Eliab and
Herrick.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Ahleal V
Shipmate
# 8404
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Good luck, and I will pray for you.
Usually, I find the internet a tiresome place, filled with angry hatred from the commentati - and then, every now and again, I read something like IngoB's piece, which briefly restores my faith in humanity ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
IngoB, make yourself a coffee and have a gold star from me.
x
AV
[ 25. September 2013, 11:31: Message edited by: Ahleal V ]
Posts: 499 | From: English Spires | Registered: Aug 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
If you feal fear (love, anger, etc.) then you are living. Which is what we were all put here to do. Live well.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
I can't reply to everything said above - so these are my main thoughts:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think the passages about fear are really talking about worry and anxiety over the unknown future. It says "don't worry over tomorrow and what tomorrow might bring" because tomorrow will have enough worries that it does bring without needing any more. In the times that it was written, when death, suffering or ruin were ever present possibilities, it was saying don't focus on them.
I'm thinking about the passage where Jesus is asleep in the boat, during a storm severe enough to put professional fishermen in fear, and seems to take their response to danger as a lack of faith. Yes, the story is told because Jesus' calmness here is extraordinary, but it certainly looks to me that the contrast is to the 'natural reaction' sort of fear, not just to the 'unnecessary worrying' kind.
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Has Christianity (or my experience of it) got this wrong? Should we be encouraging one another to greater fortitude - or giving one another freedom to admit to greater fragility? Is it possible to try to do both?
I think we have to do both. If you want to learn to bake bread, or ride a bicycle, or do calculus, pretending you already know how doesn't get you very far. You have to accept that you don't know how to do it. You might know a little bit already, and that's good. But to master a skill, you have to know what you don't know, so you can learn to do what you want to do.
I think it's the same thing here. If you want to learn to face fearful things with courage and equanimity, I think you have to start out by saying, "I'm afraid."
A lot of our moral conduct is shaped by expectation, though. I don't think that the reason that almost all professional footballers cheat, and almost no professional golfers do, is that moral character correlates very closely to a preference for one type of sport. I think it is due to different cultural expectations. No one really expects a major football tournament to take place without a lot of deliberate foul play, and getting a red card is not particularly shameful, whereas a morally (but not culturally) equivalent level of misconduct in golf would be scandalous.
Similarly in a sub-culture I know well, the legal profession in England, there are some things that are just not done. Lawyers, in my experience, are just as likely as anyone else to lie to their husbands and wives, but massively less likely to lie in a court-room. Because misleading the court is something that lawyers are not just told that we must not do, but that it is something which we, as a professional class, do not do, we don't tend to do it. A sin that is also an offence to our self-identity is easier to resist.
As far as I can tell by introspection, I not only act more composedly, I am actually less afraid that I would otherwise be, because it is to some extent shameful to express fear. If I knew that no one would think the worse of me for being terrified, it is very likely that I would be less inhibited in showing and feeling fear – and in consequence I would be much more miserable.
That's why I think it's difficult. Up to a point (possibly even up to a point just below emotional collapse) restraining emotions has real benefits. A cultural expectation for outward signs of bravery, and against expressions of fear is not just unhealthy inhibition – for some people, I think including me, it is a tangible help and support.
Of course it can also be disastrous, at breaking point, because it can mean that when someone has done all that flesh and blood can do in the face of fear, or pain, and it becomes too much, they are unfairly hit by a crushing sense of failure and shame, to add to the unendurable burdens they already face. But the social expectation of courage may have helped keep them going for months or years before that. I think that there is a tension between encouraging bravery and supporting the fearful.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Those are unpleasant things - and I could count on almost anyone sympathising my desire to avoid them - so why is saying "I'm scared" a difficult thing to do?
It's more a guy-thing than a Christian thing.
and
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Men, in particular, are often subject to the message “be strong”. This makes it difficult for them to admit to being scared, even when being scared is a perfectly sensible and normal reaction to a dangerous or threatening situation.
I think for me it's the Christian thing more than the 'manly' thing. IngoB has correctly discerned the source of worry for my faith – I don't believe any less strongly for being afraid, I worry that my being afraid is evidence that I don't believe as strongly as I ought.
That is, perhaps, a useful role for fear to play. When I'm afraid, and I know that I'm afraid, I am in little danger of imagining that I'm close to sainthood. I see that I'm weak, and realise how dependant my composure is on circumstances, and how dependant I am on others and on God. It is harder to be arrogant when one is afraid.
Herrick – my best wishes and prayers for your treatment.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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Raptor Eye
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
I'm thinking about the passage where Jesus is asleep in the boat, during a storm severe enough to put professional fishermen in fear, and seems to take their response to danger as a lack of faith. Yes, the story is told because Jesus' calmness here is extraordinary, but it certainly looks to me that the contrast is to the 'natural reaction' sort of fear, not just to the 'unnecessary worrying' kind.
I think that the good purposes of fear, with its 'fight or flight' reactions to help us to survive, become corrupted as soon as we apply our imaginations and thought processes to a situation and fear for the future rather than for the immediate present. The 'do not be afraid' statements in the scriptures are imv meant to remove this kind of anxiety, which is destructive, unhealthy, has no useful purpose at all, and makes no difference to the outcome. To do all we possibly can, and then to trust in God for the best outcome toward the purpose of building God's kingdom, allows negative fear to subside and for our physical bodies to be as healthy as possible and better able to heal in the event of damage.
The disciples needed the stimulus of fear for the energy to do all they needed to do to keep the boat afloat. They didn't need to wake Jesus up or to panic as they imagined the boat would sink, rather than to trust in a good outcome due to faith in God.
May you and Herrick be conscious of God's presence with you as you undergo treatment.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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Posted
It's interesting to meditate on Matthew 2:19-23 (with particular reference to v. 22):
quote:
Now when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the young Child’s life are dead.” Then he arose, took the young Child and His mother, and came into the land of Israel.
But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea instead of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. And being warned by God in a dream, he turned aside into the region of Galilee. And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, “He shall be called a Nazarene.”
God expressly commanded Joseph to return to Israel, because "those who sought the young Child's life are dead". The implication being that there was no reason to fear.
However Joseph was still afraid, which at first sight indicates a lack of faith in God. But do we see any evidence that God rebuked Joseph? No. God spoke through a second dream and appeared to concede to Joseph's fear. In fact, it could be argued that Joseph was actually justified in feeling afraid, and God used that to direct that stage of the journey.
I have drawn considerable comfort from this event, and realised that it is not necessarily a sin to be afraid, even if that fear appears to fly in the face of a command of God.
Every blessing to you (from a fellow sufferer of heart disease).
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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