Ship of Fools: Holy Water

Thread: Holy Water Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=026087

Posted by Karl Kroenen (# 16822) on :

If you had a bottle of holy water and a bottle of normal unblessed tapwater, could someone tell which was which in a blind test?

If not - what is the 'point?'

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

I think you've missed the point.

Posted by Karl Kroenen (# 16822) on :

...so enlighten me

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

As a Lutheran baptism is the use of water combined with God's Word. It is the act of baptism that is holy, not the water itself. The water is very common. It is set apart (ie holy) for a specific act. Aside from that action it is only water.

[ 23. September 2013, 19:35: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]

Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :

Did the colleague who recently brought twenty ten litre bottles of water from Lourdes back to the UK also miss the point?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

If you met a Christian and a non-Christian, before either said hello, could you tell which is which?

I'm not sure the "point" of Holy Water is to be instantly detectable. Strike that, I'm certain that's not the point.

Posted by Plique-à-jour (# 17717) on :

(x-post with mousethief)

Oh wow, you've pointed out something nobody has ever thought about holy water at all! The Vatican may not last the night. Good work, chaps.

[ 23. September 2013, 19:53: Message edited by: Plique-à-jour ]

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl Kroenen:
If you had a bottle of holy water and a bottle of normal unblessed tapwater, could someone tell which was which in a blind test?

If not - what is the 'point?'

The former might work on a vampire.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl Kroenen:
If you had a bottle of holy water and a bottle of normal unblessed tapwater, could someone tell which was which in a blind test?

If you're in Austria, apparently you can just test for fecal matter.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

It used to be customary, AIUI, to add salt to holy water. That custom is apparently not a strict rule any more, but is still observed in some churches. So yes, in some churches, a random person off the street performing a blind taste test actually could tell the difference.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl Kroenen:
If you had a bottle of holy water and a bottle of normal unblessed tapwater, could someone tell which was which in a blind test?

If not - what is the 'point?'

The holy water would taste slightly salty, I think. But it's not meant for drinking in any case.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

And you have to exorcise the salt that is put into the holy water, begging the question of whether exorcised salt tastes different to ordinary salt that may contain demons. [Two face]

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The holy water would taste slightly salty, I think. But it's not meant for drinking in any case.

Oh?

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

If you were blind and you had a copy of the Bible and a copy of the Kama Sutra in your hands how would you tell the difference ? would it matter anyway ?

Holy water is a water which has been blessed for a specific purpose.It is used with faith.It is difficult to touch faith.
Lourdes water is simply water from Lourdes,usually from the spring beside the well known sanctuary. For those with faith(an elusive quality) they may believe that the Virgin Mary asked people to come and pray and wash in the spring.For those who cannot actually go to Lourdes,those who have gone there will sometimes bring back the water. It's as simple as that.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Never been to Lourdes. Question, is the spring water Lourdes a mineral water?

Regards, putting salt into baptismal water: when the water is used over and over by a congregation, salt was added because of its antiseptic qualities. Those that practice this say it was also a symbol of exorcism,

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Never been to Lourdes. Question, is the spring water Lourdes a mineral water?

Regards, putting salt into baptismal water: when the water is used over and over by a congregation, salt was added because of its antiseptic qualities. Those that practice this say it was also a symbol of exorcism,

Madonna's daughter is a girl not a source of refreshment (ok she might be for some, then)

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl Kroenen:
If you had a bottle of holy water and a bottle of normal unblessed tapwater, could someone tell which was which in a blind test? If not - what is the 'point?'

A national flag is just a piece of cloth. If you fly it on the battle field to rally your troops, it becomes more than a piece of cloth by virtue of the hopes and actions of people that attach to it. If you fly that flag in your garden, then that can also be true, but there is more of a danger of it becoming hypocritical. Whether either of these is good, bad or ugly depends on what all the people who put their hopes and actions into this flag are actually up to.

Sacramentals, like (the use of) holy water are not sacraments. Thus what they are good for depends in a similar manner on what we do with them. However, unlike for the national flag, there is at least one person in play here whose intentions are good and pure: God. So if someone dips their fingers into holy water on their way out of Church, and draws a cross with it across their body, then this can mean something deep or it can be hypocritical - to them personally and to the community. But at least God can be expected to smile on such a dedication, for what it could and should symbolise (even if it doesn't in a particular case). None of this relies on "special properties" of the water that an empirical investigation would uncover. A national flag is also just cloth, physically speaking. That is not the point.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

I always bless the water in any swimming pool I enter. It's about grace you know.

KK, maybe the little boat of your life has come closer to the Kingdon by a simple swim, and you never knew.

Swim Safe, Pyx_e

Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :

There may well be some differences in water from, say, Lourdes, to water from somewhere else. However, this is to do with the "other" chemicals that are mixed in with the H-O-H.

Though one might might want to be wary.

The blessing does nothing to the water. In that respect, it is as effective as a homeopathic "remedy". Unfortunately, the fact that some catholics and even some christians think it does have some mystical properties is a sad indictment on the legacy of superstition, which really has nothing to do with the christian faith.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
There may well be some differences in water from, say, Lourdes, to water from somewhere else. However, this is to do with the "other" chemicals that are mixed in with the H-O-H.

Though one might might want to be wary.

The blessing does nothing to the water. In that respect, it is as effective as a homeopathic "remedy". Unfortunately, the fact that some catholics and even some christians think it does have some mystical properties is a sad indictment on the legacy of superstition, which really has nothing to do with the christian faith.

Utter bollocks. What does 'some catholics and even some christians' mean?

What you are saying in effect is saying that atheism is correct. Well, hot shoe me with a twerkin firkin!

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
There may well be some differences in water from, say, Lourdes, to water from somewhere else. However, this is to do with the "other" chemicals that are mixed in with the H-O-H.

Though one might might want to be wary.

The blessing does nothing to the water. In that respect, it is as effective as a homeopathic "remedy". Unfortunately, the fact that some catholics and even some christians think it does have some mystical properties is a sad indictment on the legacy of superstition, which really has nothing to do with the christian faith.

As the above poster rightly said: Utter bollocks!

God can and does work through his creation, such as through the water in baptism or water blessed or consecrated for any other purpose. To believe otherwise is in effect atheism or at the very least somekind of deism.

Posted by Ahleal V (# 8404) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
...the fact that some catholics and even some christians think it does have some mystical properties is a sad indictment on the legacy of superstition, which really has nothing to do with the christian faith.

*claps*

Gosh! I'd never realised that! All my life, I've been confused until suddenly the clouds have parted and the null-not-light of reason has shone through! No more wicked superstition for me!

****.

AV

[ 24. September 2013, 11:00: Message edited by: Ahleal V ]

Posted by Peter Spence (# 14085) on :

A Vampire could tell the difference.

Posted by Peter Spence (# 14085) on :

Sorry the Midge I missed yours.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Given the action of the water cycle, at what point does holy water cease to be holy water, or could we assume that by now, all water is?

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

And it's all been through the bladders of Caesar, Napoleon, and anyone you care to think of. I'm thinking of you, Auntie Bessie.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Water doesn't need to be blessed to be a reminder of our baptism.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
And you have to exorcise the salt that is put into the holy water, begging the question of whether exorcised salt tastes different to ordinary salt that may contain demons.

Countless vampire movies over the last 30 years prove that water with demonic salt will not work on vampires.

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, hot shoe me with a twerkin firkin!

Utter bollocks!

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, hot shoe me with a twerkin firkin!
Utter bollocks!

In the name of Chthulhu, may all water attain to the plenitude of the pleroma, where it may ascend to the aerie regions, and then fall upon us like an old Irishman's gentle pee!

Oops, sorry, wrong forum. Where's the incontinence forum?

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Given the action of the water cycle, at what point does holy water cease to be holy water, or could we assume that by now, all water is?

At what point of ageing by usage (fading and wear and tear) does a national flag cease being a national flag? Since atoms and molecules of former, long decayed national flags will be found everywhere, is basically everything a national flag now?

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Water doesn't need to be blessed to be a reminder of our baptism.

Fortunately the Church is incarnational in Spirit and understands basic human psychology, hence ignores such truisms in favour of the inspired and wise practice of rituals.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Agree with that.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl Kroenen:
If you had a bottle of holy water and a bottle of normal unblessed tapwater, could someone tell which was which in a blind test?

If not - what is the 'point?'
The holy water would taste slightly salty, I think. But it's not meant for drinking in any case.

This is not the case in Orthodoxy, where holy-water-drinking mini-rituals exist. Particularly on Theophany (Epiphany) at the Great Blessing of the Waters. (Recall Jan 6 in Orthodoxy commemorates our Lord's baptism, not the visit of the Wise Persons.)

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Water doesn't need to be blessed to be a reminder of our baptism.

Whatever gave you the quaint notion that the purpose of holy water is to be a reminder of our baptism? Methinks you are projecting a low-church Protestant anti-sacramentalism onto high-church practices, where it most emphatically does not belong. Whatever you think about our holy water, our reasons for using it have nowt to do with whatever you think about it. Really this should be obvious.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Mousie, in the Western Church, holy water used specifically in the ritual sprinkling before the principal Mass on a Sunday - "the Asperges" (though technically that name is taken from the portion of psalm Asperges Me sung during the sprinkling; during Eastertide the Vidi Aquam is sung instead) - certainly is a memorial of our baptism. In that usage there is certainly nothing anti-sacramentalist nor specifically protestant about the equation of the sprinkling of the congregation with holy water and the commemoration of our baptism.

[ 24. September 2013, 15:34: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

A number of years ago we went on a walking tour in Portugal. Were those holy water drinking fountains in all the church courtyards in small towns and villages? Beside the bone chapels? Are the bones in bone chapels especially blessed too? If the water is holy how come it said 'not fit for drinking'? (While we're at it, why does Portuguese sound like Polish?)

Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
Unfortunately, the fact that some catholics and even some christians think it does have some mystical properties is a sad indictment on the legacy of superstition, which really has nothing to do with the christian faith.

You would appear to lack understanding of the terms 'catholic', 'Christian', 'mystical', 'sad indictment', 'superstition', and 'Christian faith.'

That takes some doing.

Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
A number of years ago we went on a walking tour in Portugal. Were those holy water drinking fountains in all the church courtyards in small towns and villages? Beside the bone chapels? Are the bones in bone chapels especially blessed too? If the water is holy how come it said 'not fit for drinking'? (While we're at it, why does Portuguese sound like Polish?)

Water from a drinking fountain is unlikely to have been blessed by a priest, so no, it is not holy water.

Water from a spring next to a particular shrine may be regarded as holy water, but this is an honorific holiness. It is not blessed.

Meanwhile, ritually blessed is not the same thing as potable, just as ritually clean is not the same thing as actually clean. Ritual cleansing uses only water (usually running water). Actual cleaning takes soap as well.

As for the bones, I cannot comment on whether they have been blessed or not because I am not familiar with Portugese rituals in this matter.

Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Water doesn't need to be blessed to be a reminder of our baptism.

The point is not whether the water needs it, but whether we need it.

The blessing of the water consecrates it to God's service, and reminds us that the same is true of us. It is certainly true that any water can remind us of our baptism, just as any drink can remind us of the champagne we drank at our wedding. But actual champagne is a better reminder.

[Smile]

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Were those holy water drinking fountains in all the church courtyards in small towns and villages?

That's highly unlikely, unless there was some local custom of drinking holy water that was followed by such huge masses of people (streams of pilgrims) that installing a holy water drinking fountain makes sense. (Plus someone must have forgotten to put up a sign...)

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Beside the bone chapels? Are the bones in bone chapels especially blessed too?

Is there more than one Chapel of Bones? I would say that it is fairly likely that there was some kind of blessing of these bones, and be it only in terms of consecrating the chapel as a building of prayer. It is possible that there was a holy water urn in or close to the chapel. Sometimes Catholics take away some holy water for home usage, e.g., to fill a personal stoup in the doorway of their house. Rather than scooping it from the church font or stoups, they would get it then from a holy water urn. It should be quite recognisable though, typically there would be a sign.

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
If the water is holy how come it said 'not fit for drinking'?

Presumably because it is not fit for drinking? What has that to do with being holy?

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
(While we're at it, why does Portuguese sound like Polish?)

Because you speak neither.

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
If the water is holy how come it said 'not fit for drinking'?

Andrew Brown (an atheist) had a good go at answering this question in last week's Grauniad

quote:
Believers see it is as place of purity, not hygiene. Hygiene is sterile, but purity sustains life.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Is there more than one Chapel of Bones?

It would seem that there is. There is one in Silves another in Campo Maior, and I think the one to which your refer is near Faro. It is the one in Silves that comes to my mind. These aren't my pictures, but they are from the one I recall: Silves, Al Cantarilha

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Fortunately the Church is incarnational in Spirit and understands basic human psychology, hence ignores such truisms in favour of the inspired and wise practice of rituals.

So there is no ontological change in the after during blessing, only min the minds of the faithful? A sort of placebo?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
to be a reminder of our baptism.

Whatever gave you the quaint notion that the purpose of holy water is to be a reminder of our baptism? Methinks you are projecting a low-church Protestant anti-sacramentalism onto high-church practices, where it most emphatically does not belong. [/QB][/QUOTE]

The Western (Catholic church) - who empties the holy water stoups during the Triduum and then unlocks toe waters of baptism at the Easter Vigil and refills them.

quote:
holy water reminds us of our Baptism, when by the invocation of the Holy Trinity and the pouring of holy water, we were set free from original sin and all sin, infused with sanctifying grace, incorporated into the Church, and given the title Son or Daughter of God.

says this RC priest in the Arlington catholic herald.

quote:
The blessing and sprinkling of holy water has evolved this way because of its connections with Baptism, the renewal of baptismal promises

says this RC Pastoral Liturgy site.
Now unless the Orthodoxen regard Roman Catholics as protestants, you are wrong.

[ 24. September 2013, 18:36: Message edited by: leo ]

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

When I bless holy water (which I actually haven't done yet as we have a huge amount of it in the sacristy), I'll be participating in the embodied prayer of all who use it. Of course, people can pray privately using whatever water they want, but many of them want a cleric of the Church to be involved in their prayer to help connect their popular devotion with the Church's liturgy.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
blah fucking blah

It is as I figured. You left out the more catholic points of what he said and only posted the one that is protestant-safe, then mocked it. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
blah fucking blah

As you know, personal attacks belong in hell.

Gwai,
Purgatory Host

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Fortunately the Church is incarnational in Spirit and understands basic human psychology, hence ignores such truisms in favour of the inspired and wise practice of rituals.
So there is no ontological change in the after during blessing, only min the minds of the faithful? A sort of placebo?

There is no ontological change. Blessing of things aren't about that: they are about the setting aside of something for a particular use. The current book of blessings makes this less clear (concentrating rather on imprecations God's blessing on those who used the blessed object (which is a good and holy thing for which to pray); the older Roman Ritual, however, makes abundantly clear that the thing to be blessed is first exorcised of malevolent spirits and then set aside for holy use and holy use alone.

Posted by Plique-à-jour (# 17717) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Fortunately the Church is incarnational in Spirit and understands basic human psychology, hence ignores such truisms in favour of the inspired and wise practice of rituals.
So there is no ontological change in the after during blessing, only min the minds of the faithful? A sort of placebo?

Why take the piss like this?

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

Can you please say what is meant by ontological change here? The substances of communion, bread and wine, do they experience this change, but the water doesn't? Then how might it be holy?

Further, what sort of of change might an average human convert to Christianity experience? On our deaths, what is then change in us?

Finally, what change, if any, did Jesus ever experience in his substance during his life and death? I think the debates about this have been the stuff of various heresies, though am not educated about this. I'm thinking about Jesus' baptism and the dove and voice scene, and the dying and the resurrection, but perhaps there are other markers in his life worthy of inclusion.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Can you please say what is meant by ontological change here? The substances of communion, bread and wine, do they experience this change, but the water doesn't? Then how might it be holy?

It is set apart for God. That's what 'holy' means.

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl Kroenen:
If you had a bottle of holy water and a bottle of normal unblessed tapwater, could someone tell which was which in a blind test?

If not - what is the 'point?'

Holy water tastes saltier than fresh tap water. Salt is added ceremonially to the water as it is blessed. But the actual point of the salt additive is to retard spoilage and bacterial contamination when the holy water comes into repeated contact with dipping fingers during the course of a week. Of course, that's especially true in the summer months.

*

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

People fill up wee bottles (that they buy from our shop) or even 1.5 litre coca cola bottles (that they bring on their tour buses) with water from the Jordan River. Sometimes they would even buy a small coca cola from me, drink it fast and toddle off to the water's edge...
They take it to the farthest corners of the earth as gifts.
You can also buy ready-bottled in our shop. It's just water - not expressly blessed by anyone. Just bottled as is.
Two chappies used come in a white van to fill up jerry-cans and then take it to their "factory" where they would pour it into cute little bottles. Then they would sell it to our shop and it would be on the shelves for people to buy.
Then they thought they would save the petrol and just use the tap water - I mean it all came from the same holy Sea of Galilee originally dinnit?
But they were found out, charged, convicted and fined and worst of all put on the tv news. In Hebrew so most of the people who would have been concerned would not have understood or more likely would have been back home none the wiser.

IIRC they found fluoride in the tested samples of the alleged unholy water.
Can you taste fluoride?

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:

Can you taste fluoride?

I can taste all sorts of chemicals in tap water.

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So there is no ontological change in the after during blessing, only min the minds of the faithful? A sort of placebo?

I'm not sure what precisely you mean by "ontological change". Certainly there's no transubstantiation, holy water remains water. Also the holy status is "use-dependent". So the water in the stoup is holy, but the water vapour invariably rising from it is not. However, this is not simply arbitrary. Just because an atheist may consider holy water to be nothing but ordinary water, and could for example use it to wash his car, does not mean that the water uses its blessed status in the hands of an atheist. That water dripping off the car has been misused, desecrated. So in that sense there is a change to what the water is, independent of a particular human observer. The point is of course that the status of holy water is not just in the mind of the faithful, but also in the mind of God, who is invoked in the blessing. And God does not forget or make mistakes, though He will forgive.

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Can you please say what is meant by ontological change here? The substances of communion, bread and wine, do they experience this change, but the water doesn't? Then how might it be holy?

Bread and wine stop being bread and wine and become the body and blood of Christ, although under the appearance (species) of bread and wine. There is a substantial change there which holy water does not undergo. It remains water. Also holy water is set apart for God (for uses pertaining to God), whereas the consecrated host is God. The holiness of the former is in the dedication, of the latter it is intrinsic.

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Further, what sort of of change might an average human convert to Christianity experience? On our deaths, what is then change in us?

That takes us rather far afield now, doesn't it? Certainly the substance of being human does not change in either case (and in that sense then there is no ontological change), because we are not being saved as a piece of cheese (or whatever), but as humans.

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Finally, what change, if any, did Jesus ever experience in his substance during his life and death?

None. If Jesus changed His substance, He would have ceased to be human and God. There would be debate on this with regards to His death and the meaning of "substance". However, these difficulties do not really say much about holy water, and so I'll leave it at that.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
People fill up wee bottles (that they buy from our shop)

I trust you are using 'wee' in its Scottish sense. [Biased]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I haven't bothered reading all the posts here, but there seems to be something wildly amiss.

For Pete's sake, the use of holy water is a symbolic action. Believing it to have been blessed gives it further symbolic significance.

And I'm not one of these who think "symbolic" is the opposite of "real". As far as I can make out from post-structuralist philosophy and quantum physics, all our apprehension of reality is symbolic. There's no other way of understanding the world.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So there is no ontological change in the after during blessing, only min the minds of the faithful? A sort of placebo?

Don't knock placebos. They're sometimes the best remedy you can get.

[ 25. September 2013, 09:01: Message edited by: Adeodatus ]

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I haven't bothered reading all the posts here, but there seems to be something wildly amiss.

For Pete's sake, the use of holy water is a symbolic action. Believing it to have been blessed gives it further symbolic significance.

And I'm not one of these who think "symbolic" is the opposite of "real". As far as I can make out from post-structuralist philosophy and quantum physics, all our apprehension of reality is symbolic. There's no other way of understanding the world.

Excellent. Yes, I was wondering how one would distinguish anything from anything really, if one dismisses symbol, ritual and narrative. I suppose the whole of religion would collapse, but so would the whole of culture, wouldn't it? The raw and the cooked, and so on.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I read the Andrew Brown piece cited earlier, and I thought he made the very good point that water is a powerful symbol for many people, including people who aren't religious. For example, sitting by the sea can be a powerful and poignant experience for many, and the same with some rivers and lakes. I often walk by the Thames, and there is something awesome about it, something almost eternal, and it reminds me of Eliot:

The river is within us, the sea is all about us;
The sea is the land's edge also, the granite
Into which it reaches, the beaches where it tosses
Its hints of earlier and other creation.

The Dry Salvages.

So to ask if holy water is just like tap water somehow misses not just the point of religious symbolism and ritual, but for God's sake, the whole of human symbolism and ritual, by which we are surrounded, and which in fact constitute us as human in the first place.

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So there is no ontological change in the after during blessing, only min the minds of the faithful? A sort of placebo?
Don't knock placebos. They're sometimes the best remedy you can get.

Indeed. Placebos are the most powerful drugs known to modern medicine. And if you take into account the fact that the placebo effect will enhance the chemical effect of every effective drug, there's even more in placebos than they're given credit for.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
blah fucking blah
It is as I figured. You left out the more catholic points of what he said and only posted the one that is protestant-safe, then mocked it.

Left out? We are debating copyright in The Styx. I only quoted the bits relevant to the point I made, which you disputed as being 'protestant' i.e. that holy water reminds us of our baptism.

I don't see how baptismal reminder is uncatholic - the hearty of catholic liturgy is the Easter Vigil, when this is all spelt out wonderfully.

I like both Trisagion's and InigoB's posts later on and need to think more about them.

Meanwhile, when my coffin is aspersed at some future date, I don't think my journey through Purgatory will be much effected by whether it is blessed or tap water. (Though i told my vicar i would come back and haunt him if he goes round the wrong way with the aspergillium. Then again, he's left-handed so may have an excuse.)

What are the bits i left out?

[ 25. September 2013, 19:07: Message edited by: leo ]

Posted by HughWillRidmee (# 15614) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Is there more than one Chapel of Bones?
It would seem that there is. There is one in Silves another in Campo Maior, and I think the one to which your refer is near Faro. It is the one in Silves that comes to my mind. These aren't my pictures, but they are from the one I recall: Silves, Al Cantarilha

Does this count?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
blah fucking blah
As you know, personal attacks belong in hell.

Gwai,
Purgatory Host

I apologize for being intentionally and commandment-breakingly offensive outside of Hell.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Thanks mousethief!

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
When I bless holy water (which I actually haven't done yet as we have a huge amount of it in the sacristy), I'll be participating in the embodied prayer of all who use it. Of course, people can pray privately using whatever water they want, but many of them want a cleric of the Church to be involved in their prayer to help connect their popular devotion with the Church's liturgy.

Does this mean that our sextons are blessing the water in the font every time they get out the hose and fill it up (I think on Thursday nights)? To my knowledge, no priest ever blesses it, but people use it as holy water. I figure that use blesses it. Well, I have to think that. Otherwise, we're playing a nasty trick on people. (I should point out that I have no say in the matter.)

Maybe this is a better test case than the blind taste test proposed in the OP.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0