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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Church Fundraising Galas: Are they appropriate?
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
Every year, the Diocese where I'm living in currently holds a fundraising gala: https://contact.toronto.anglican.ca/stewardship/bishops-company-regional-dinner-2013
As you can see, the cost per person is quite expensive ($85, and a table is $640)
The money from the dinner goes to worthy causes in the Diocese.
That being said, I'm a bit uncomfortable with the fact that the church is charging a lot of money for a dinner when it is supposed to follow the One who "became poor so that we might become rich." On the other hand, some would say that this is an opportunity for the wealthy members of our church to give for a good cause.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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marsupial.
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# 12458
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Posted
I looked at the website and I'm not sure I'd describe it as a "gala". It's a fundraising dinner. $85 per head is more than I would pay to drive all the way out to Barrie (why Barrie?!) and hear a bishop speak but it strikes me as being within the range of affordability for a middle-class couple who really want to do that. They are better people than I am. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
I think it's a good thing all around: the hospitality, the sharing of food and fellowship, the giving by all of themselves and of their cash to promote God's kingdom and benefit others.
It's attitude that's important. If some come to swank, or to hob-nob, or to be Lord or Lady Bountiful, God may have a word to say about it when the time comes....
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
In principle it looks OK, although I'd question that you need a half-pound chicken fillet for one person.
The plus side of this kind of fundraising is that it can mean you raise money from people who wouldn't come anywhere near the normal run of church dos.
The negative is that it the cost can alienate regular churchgoers who either can't afford it or who decide they can't reconcile such an event with their faith.
Churches everywhere need to raise funds just to keep going: their desire to support those less fortunate, or to fund missionary work, means they will always try to raise more than their basic needs require.
A variety of events need to be organised, run in a professional manner, and ensuring that throughout the year ALL budgets are catered for.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
The danger of expensive events like this being used as networking opportunities by well off people to be able to place other well off people in better positions and further exclude everyone who can't afford to get in seems to me to be reason enough to avoid it. There's enough of that in the world outside the church.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Lothiriel
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# 15561
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Posted
If a meal and a speaker is what it takes to encourage people to give to a worthy cause, why not? I wouldn't call it a gala -- I think the dress code is business wear rather than evening wear, for example.
The Bishop's Company dinner in the Diocese of Toronto began in the 1960s as a way to raise funds to help clergy families in need, particularly (AIUI) retired clergy who were living in poverty. It's expanded a little since then, and while still providing help for clergy facing unexpected expenses, it also provides bursaries for those entering theological studies. These funds often go to people with families and mortgages who leave well-paying jobs in order to study for ordination.
It also began at a time when Toronto Anglicans included a good number of the rich and powerful people of the city, who were well able to contribute. Although these days you might see more of a cross-section of members at the dinner, it's still heavily weighted toward the well-off.
Coupla links:
http://www.toronto.anglican.ca/about-the-diocese/annual-and-legacy-giving/bishop%E2%80%99s-company/the-bishops-company-fund/
http://www.toronto.anglican.ca/about-the-diocese/annual-and-legacy-giving/bishop%E2%80%99s-company/
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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery
my blog
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Gwai
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# 11076
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Posted
NB: Note that nothing that follows is something I think everyone should do. I am only speaking for my own crabby self.
As a person who attends a poor UMC church in the city, I know that I have decided that categorically and on principle expensive events for the public that are in places (suburbs) where there is no public transportation are not things I will attend. Period. If the church wants the rest of us to come they will make sure that people don't have to beg rides or cut deeply into their weekly budget just to be part of a connexional denomination. Exclusive is as exclusive does.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Every year, the Diocese where I'm living in currently holds a fundraising gala: https://contact.toronto.anglican.ca/stewardship/bishops-company-regional-dinner-2013
As you can see, the cost per person is quite expensive ($85, and a table is $640)
The money from the dinner goes to worthy causes in the Diocese.
That being said, I'm a bit uncomfortable with the fact that the church is charging a lot of money for a dinner when it is supposed to follow the One who "became poor so that we might become rich." On the other hand, some would say that this is an opportunity for the wealthy members of our church to give for a good cause.
If someone can use their money, they may as well be rinsed for it. I can't see the objection, really.
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
I'm in a similar position to Gwai on this. We have a small budget and a large family. The price of one ticket for this meal would enable all of us to have an OK eat out. If the church wants to have this sort of event, I don't much mind, and my guess is that the profits come more from the auction than from the price of the meal (but I could be wrong).
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Hairy Biker
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# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lothiriel:
If a meal and a speaker is what it takes to encourage people to give to a worthy cause, why not?
Why not? Because if they spent the time and effort on persuading those people to give without expecting to receive something in return then we might have a better world, rather than a annual pot of money for some "worthy" cause.
But that's just impossibly idealistic, I realise, like expecting to come down to earth and save humanity. You'd just end up getting crucified.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
We don't seem to have this sort of thing in our corner of The Lord's Vineyard. The only social/fundraising things our little A-C shack organises are either (a) Jumble Sales, Coffee Mornings, or Summer/Christmas Fairs, to which admission is free, or (b) an occasional Quiz Night or something similar, to which the admission is £5 per person coz it includes food and drink...
....and, if we were a PLC, we might well be declaring a modest dividend....but we ain't, so all profit goes to The Lord's Vineyard.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
This sort of thing doesn't strike me as very British.
In the first place, few British churches would be able to attract enough wealthy attenders to be able to justify such high ticket prices. The idea that wealthy non-religious people would pay a lot of money to attend a 'church fundraising gala' sounds quite strange. Moreover, most churches don't have connections to famous and popular speakers. Famous people who do have a church connection usually want to keep that as something quite low key. They certainly don't want to be the centre of attention at a church event.
Over here, most church fundraising efforts focus on gaining community involvement from ordinary people rather than appealing to a small number of the wealthy. Maybe a small number of famous churches in central London or cathedrals in other towns are able to attract sponsorship from the corporate sector or from very wealthy individuals. I happen to be reading a novel where that's the case. But it's not normal.
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
We only have one or two ticketed events at our church, including an auction. Any time there is a price for admission, the Rector makes free tickets available to anyone whose budget would not allow them to attend. If you are going to have ticketed events at your church, this seems to be the way to go.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
To me, a fundraising gala has a bit of an element of showing off how much you give, which would be in contradiction with Matthew 6:1. I guess it depends on how you do it though.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
Sounds like a perfectly Anglican thing to do, doesn't it? As was said on the Inclusive Church Sunday thread in Ecclesiantics, most churches need a Working Class Sunday more than an Inclusive Church Sunday. Of course, in North America, we've tried to model our church polity on that of our nation's government. Why wouldn't we expect fundraising galas like this that give more access to the affluent? Lord knows they are common enough in Washington D.C. and the various state capitals (and I assume in Ottawa and the various provincial capitals as well).
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Sounds like a perfectly Anglican thing to do, doesn't it? As was said on the Inclusive Church Sunday thread in Ecclesiantics, most churches need a Working Class Sunday more than an Inclusive Church Sunday.
No they don't, that would be incredibly othering.
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
I see both sides, and don't see how to resolve them. Both sides crop up in lots of church activities.
I hate missing a church event I would enjoy, and miss the opportunity to make connections with fellow church members in different ways and environments, and miss hearing or meeting the Bishop or other famous speaker, and left out of the conversation that follows among those who were there, when the only reason to not attend is money. Makes me feel like part of church has been closed to me but opened to others solely because they are "rich" and that distinction in a church just plain feels wrong.
But my richer friends in the "fancy restaurant every month" group or the gala fund raising bunch are NOT INTERESTED in moving the event to McDonald's or equivalent so more can afford to come. The appeal of the evening is a delightful meal in a delightful environment.
Should no one attend that conference with the $500 registration fee (plus hotel, meals, and travel) just because someone else interested in the conference topic can't afford it? Or no Sunday school/Bible study class use that "marvelous" program that has a $200 DVD because the only way to pay for it is to charge participants and some interested church members can't afford the $30?
Are all church activities supposed to be open to all interested people? Or is it wrong to expect richer folks to live as if poor in church circles?
Extreme example - a local church recently sponsored a trip to the Holy Land - you know the game, pastor family goes free if he gets enough church members to sign up, so he preaches often about the spiritual value of going on a "pilgrimage" (and the whole trip counts as "work time" for him because he's "with his church.") Those who went, loved it, and it was a bonding experience among group members. Many others really wanted to go but at $6000 a couple, way out of reach. Should the rich have stayed home instead of going on a great trip with a compatible group (which is more fun than taking a similar trip with strangers)?
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I was being facetious. Working Class Sunday is as daft an idea as Inclusive Church Sunday. Both are the types of ideas normally proposed by people who use words like Othering (and a plethora of other pseudo-theological verbals) but don't see the hypocrisy in attending an $85 a plate fundraising gala.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Are all church activities supposed to be open to all interested people? Or is it wrong to expect richer folks to live as if poor in church circles?
I haven't experienced this situation in church, despite never having much money. One reason could be because my churches probably have a much bigger proportion of poor folk, so their feelings and opinions matter more (!) But it's also true that in my church tradition certain really big events are unlikely to be organised congregationally. Expensive trips abroad are arranged on a regional basis (British Methodists talk about circuits and districts), or even nationally. At this level, churches try to offer some financial support so that groups can be diverse.
And why not encourage fundraising so that less wealthy folk can participate in church trips abroad? Fundraising itself is designed to raise money, so there wouldn't be much point in allowing people to participate in fundraising activities for free. But I don't see why all fundraising activity should be focused on one event. If you have a big congregation it should be okay to have different events to appeal to different interests and different budgets. Again, purely social events should be organised so that there's something for everyone.
FWIW, I can't think of anything worse than a bunch of posh Christians pretending to enjoy themselves in McDonald's when they really don't! British middle class Christians are quite snooty about McDonald's, although not for purely financial reasons. But there must be other reasonably priced options!
[ 27. September 2013, 19:01: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Lothiriel
Shipmate
# 15561
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by Lothiriel:
If a meal and a speaker is what it takes to encourage people to give to a worthy cause, why not?
Why not? Because if they spent the time and effort on persuading those people to give without expecting to receive something in return then we might have a better world, rather than a annual pot of money for some "worthy" cause.
But that's just impossibly idealistic, I realise, like expecting to come down to earth and save humanity. You'd just end up getting crucified.
But it's not just about giving money. It's also a chance for people from different parishes to meet and mingle, there's a publicity/PR element involved, and it's just plain enjoyable! Much more fun than sitting at home writing a cheque.
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Extreme example - a local church recently sponsored a trip to the Holy Land - you know the game, pastor family goes free if he gets enough church members to sign up, so he preaches often about the spiritual value of going on a "pilgrimage" (and the whole trip counts as "work time" for him because he's "with his church.") Those who went, loved it, and it was a bonding experience among group members. Many others really wanted to go but at $6000 a couple, way out of reach. Should the rich have stayed home instead of going on a great trip with a compatible group (which is more fun than taking a similar trip with strangers)?
Stay at home and pay $6000 for someone else to go who would never otherwise have seen the Holy Land in their life?
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Makepiece
Shipmate
# 10454
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Posted
James 2 suggests that segregation between rich and poor is wrong. The question he asks is 'have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?'
It seems to me that it would be very difficult to avoid 'discriminating among yourselves' where access to events are severely restricted by price. If people want to give generously there is nothing to prevent them from doing so. The Keswick Convention, an annual event in the UK is free of charge and funded solely by voluntary donations. No doubt the wealthier people who attend recognise that by giving a disproportionately high amount they can avoid discrimination.
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Don't ask for whom the bell tolls...
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
Pastor uses the pulpit to sell trips to the Holy Land?
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Alas, the ugly realities of running a Church in the real world, where it actually does need money to keep the lights on and patch leaks in the roof.
Look at it this way- back in the day the parish priest just showed up at your front door, looked through the books, and walked away with 10%.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
It seems very insensitive to promote a trip to the Holy Land as spiritually beneficial without considering issues of diversity. You'd think the minister would want to take a group that reflected the church body at large, not just its presumably ageing wealthy members. How about developing the spiritual maturity of younger church members who have less money? The church could have planned ahead and raised funds to allow some of them to go too.
I have to assume that this church is dominated by fairly wealthy people, and other members are considered to be relatively marginal to the life and future of the church. That's what it sounds like.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Alas, the ugly realities of running a Church in the real world, where it actually does need money to keep the lights on and patch leaks in the roof.
Look at it this way- back in the day the parish priest just showed up at your front door, looked through the books, and walked away with 10%.
Let's go back to that. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
The solution to tacky fundraising gimmicks is actually quite simple. Give more. The Church doesn't do this sort of thing because it is so greedy. It has no other option. It can only beg for cash from its members so many months of the year.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
FWIW, I can't think of anything worse than a bunch of posh Christians pretending to enjoy themselves in McDonald's when they really don't! British middle class Christians are quite snooty about McDonald's, although not for purely financial reasons. But there must be other reasonably priced options!
Conversely, I can't think of anything worse than being trapped in one of these fund-raising galas, eating overpriced and poorly cooked catered food, dressed to the nines in uncomfortable evening clothes, listening to some long-winded speaker drone on, all the while knowing that the vast majority of my pricey ticket went to pay for the venue, food and speaker, with only a tiny fraction going to the cause I care about. I'd much rather have an evening of games and simple food with a larger % going to the cause in question. But that's just me. I have no ethical problem per se with this sort of fund-raiser if it works and you have people enjoy that sort of thing. Just be sure there are other options for the less wealthy-- or the folks like me who'd pay $50 NOT to have to attend.
One does, however, run the danger of sending the message you don't really need the money. Both my sons attend private high schools (*another discussion*) that had fund-raisers last year. Son #1's school was held at a ritzy hotel with a very famous speaker and contemporary Christian musician. Tickets ranged from $500 to $20K. The ticket price alone made it not a hard decision to decline, but the event itself held absolutely no appeal. School #2 had an evening of hilarious skits followed by a pie auction (pies made by students and parents) all on campus. Great fun-- and great pie! Tickets were free, although some of the pies fetched up to $200. It would be interesting to find out which school actually cleared more $$ by the time you paid for all the expenses. But again, different strokes and all that, but for me, give me the pie auction any day.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I can't think of anything worse than being trapped in one of these fund-raising galas, eating overpriced and poorly cooked catered food, dressed to the nines in uncomfortable evening clothes, listening to some long-winded speaker drone on, all the while knowing that the vast majority of my pricey ticket went to pay for the venue, food and speaker, with only a tiny fraction going to the cause I care about. I'd much rather have an evening of games and simple food with a larger % going to the cause in question. But that's just me. I have no ethical problem per se with this sort of fund-raiser if it works and you have people enjoy that sort of thing. Just be sure there are other options for the less wealthy-- or the folks like me who'd pay $50 NOT to have to attend.
The world of fund-raising galas isn't one I know about. I do know about church people being snooty about McDonald's. But if you read my penultimate post above you'll see I agree with you that there should be different fundraising options.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Pastor uses the pulpit to sell trips to the Holy Land?
He said - from the pulpit - he and his wife arrange that pilgrimage trip in every church they get assigned to; Methodist, he gets moved to a different church every 5 years or so, and has "led" a church trip to Holy Land I think he said 6 times.
(I put "afford" in quotes because according to the church's annual report amount he earns, plus his wife works a full time job, they are just a little below top 10% of household incomes for USA, counting housing, we all have to pay for housing. Plus he has guaranteed lifetime employment, and a generous lifetime pension.)
I would have respected him if he paid his way and the free trips were given to congregation members who have never been able to dream of such a trip, like someone living in subsidized senior housing.
Or if he had ever mentioned the concept of pilgrimage before or after in ways the poorer in the church could relate to.
But is it really any different than the gala dinner? Aren't the clergy who attend that dinner going for free?
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I can't think of anything worse than being trapped in one of these fund-raising galas, eating overpriced and poorly cooked catered food, dressed to the nines in uncomfortable evening clothes, listening to some long-winded speaker drone on, all the while knowing that the vast majority of my pricey ticket went to pay for the venue, food and speaker, with only a tiny fraction going to the cause I care about. I'd much rather have an evening of games and simple food with a larger % going to the cause in question. But that's just me. I have no ethical problem per se with this sort of fund-raiser if it works and you have people enjoy that sort of thing. Just be sure there are other options for the less wealthy-- or the folks like me who'd pay $50 NOT to have to attend.
The world of fund-raising galas isn't one I know about. I do know about church people being snooty about McDonald's. But if you read my penultimate post above you'll see I agree with you that there should be different fundraising options.
Did you think I was arguing with you???
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
But is it really any different than the gala dinner? Aren't the clergy who attend that dinner going for free?
I wouldn't begrudge him/her that. Can't speak for all clergy, but I'm willing to bet the price of a McDonald's McRib sandwich that 90% would prefer to be home eating leftovers with their family. I know I would.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
cliffdweller
I thought we had a difference of opinion over something there, but maybe not!
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
cliffdweller
I thought we had a difference of opinion over something there, but maybe not!
Nope, I was just riffing on the same theme.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Every year, the Diocese where I'm living in currently holds a fundraising gala... As you can see, the cost per person is quite expensive ($85, and a table is $640)
Yours are cheap at the price! The local version is $120/person, $200/couple.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Two things:
1. Trip to the Holy Land: you don't need to do this with a "Pilgrimage Company" (such as advertise in The Church Times). Organise your own.
First, contact the Israeli & Jordanian tourist boards and look at where things are. Then look at block flights (did you know most airlines will give married couples a discount, plus anyone 26 or under qualifies for Youth Fares?).
Then contact the Youth Hostels Association: there are good hostels in both countries. Alternatively, there are some kibbutz which have guest houses.
The tourist boards of both countries will give you help in planning an itinerary, contacting coach hire companies, etc. There are also good bus services in Israel.
As for paying for the pastor and family - WTF? Maybe contribute to the costs of the pastor but not the rest.
2. If you have a church which can double as a concert venue (or similar) then get in touch with smaller local charities - hospice support groups or similar - and offer your church as a venue for minimal or no cost.
First, this will enable you to reach yet more people to show them the church is there, advertise services, etc. Second, you have a retiring collection for the church at end of concert. Third, if you have a good catering group you can organise the interval drinks (or similar) and profit from that.
In areas with a fair number of elderly tea time concerts are very popular: the ticket is sold to include a decent tea and everyone is happy.
And the big plus is you're not necessarily trying to raise funds from the same group of people all the time.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I have heard of congregations that organize trips (for example to the Holy Land) where they ask people who can afford it to pay 10% extra. This money goes to help so that people who are less affluent can go too.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
A pilgrimage to the Holy Land has religious value for many churchgoers. A dinner dance for anyone who can afford it does not.
And if someone does go on a group holiday, the cost of a guide or tour manager is something that will be covered in the cost to the punter.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
As for paying for the pastor and family - WTF? Maybe contribute to the costs of the pastor but not the rest.
I'm quite conflicted about this. If my church was going away to the Holy Land for a week, say, and wanted me to go, then the impact on family life would be a very significant factor. We certainly couldn't afford afford to go ourselves even if my trip was paid for. Maybe it would be OK during term time, I'm not sure, but then that would rule out other families as well. TBH I'd quite happily stay home and mind the shop. I'm not sure that my vocation to ministry calls me to go away with the minority that could afford a trip like that. I would certainly feel uncomfortable about promoting it.
If there was a real move within the church to say can we do this, I'd want to be saying how can we enable as many as possible to go, not just those who can find $6,000.
(We have this issue even with smaller events. Financially our budget won't stretch to them. I get a free pass as the minister. If it's something the family actually want to do then we'll see if we can afford it. Otherwise we tend not to go as a family.)
ETA cross-posted with venbede
[ 28. September 2013, 13:28: Message edited by: BroJames ]
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I notice traces of single people subsidising couples in some of these posts, which is what a couple discount is. (I only notice it because I've just been sent an advertising brochure for a cruise company where the single supplement is enough to smuggle a second person on for.) In the case of church functions, one ticket for $120, two for $200 seems a bit excluding those who ought to feel included. Along with the poor, of course.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
As for paying for the pastor and family - WTF? Maybe contribute to the costs of the pastor but not the rest.
fyi: technically the tour-goers aren't "paying for the pastor". Generally travel agencies throw in one or two freebies for the organizers of the trip. I know many travel agents who use these freebies themselves to scoop up free cruises, etc. Often the pastor really is "on duty" during the trip-- expected to provide some background info. on the sites visited or some sort of devotional, etc. Not saying it isn't a good deal for pastors-- certainly IMHO a much better gig than the free ticket to the gala would be. But it's not quite the scam it's being made out to be. otoh, given that there is a personal benefit as well as a cost that may exclude some members, I think it's best to make any promotion VERY low-key. Pushing it as a "pilgrimage" with great "spiritual benefit" would be out of line, IMHO-- just like pushing your own book or organizing your small group studies so everyone has to buy your latest tome would be (yes, Rick Warren, I'm looking at you).
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
If the pastor has been to the middle east previously and visited the sites, then OK for the freebie: if not, then why? You don't need your own pastor for "spiritual" reasons.
In any case, I suspect many people who wish to visit the "Holy Land" are quite shocked when they get there...
As for the services of a tour guide - again, why? A decent guide book will tell you all you need to know, really you're just paying for a glorified travel company rep.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Generally travel agencies throw in one or two freebies for the organizers of the trip.
The standard around here is, if you get 20 people to sign up (and pay) you get one free trip, for each additional 20 people another free trip. Cruises it's usually one free for each 15 you bring with you.
There are companies specialized in church choir tours, church "pilgrimage" trips, church cruises. The community chorus trip I went on, the board debated what to do with the free trips and decided to reduce everyone's cost 5% instead of giving free trips to anyone. I have heard of friends/families doing that on cruises, sign up as a group, each gets a fare reduction of a portion of the free trip. (Well, some of my friends try to recruit me for a trip "led" by them so they can go free; they don't do any research or tour guiding, commercial trips have their own local guides.)
But my purpose in mentioning the $6000 trip was to fish for the limits - or whether there are any limits - to activities promoted by the church as a church activity that only a few can attend. Dos it matter that only a few can attend because only a few fit the target physical demographic (an event for elders on walkers only) or whether only a few can attend because few fit the financial demographics?
I asked permission to attend a half-day conference to hear a bishop speak about a topic I was actively pursuing myself, I couldn't afford the fee plus travel costs so I proposed they let me attend and hear his speech at no fee in exchange for which they would not give me the "free" copy of his book. No. Pay or stay home. So I asked if the speech would be available on the web. No, pay or never hear these "new and exciting ideas" he is presenting.
It takes a lot of money to run churches and denominations the way we are doing it. To what extent is it legitimate to limit events to people with extra money? Can churches survive if they don't treat rich people differently than poor?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If the pastor has been to the middle east previously and visited the sites, then OK for the freebie: if not, then why? You don't need your own pastor for "spiritual" reasons.
In any case, I suspect many people who wish to visit the "Holy Land" are quite shocked when they get there...
As for the services of a tour guide - again, why? A decent guide book will tell you all you need to know, really you're just paying for a glorified travel company rep.
All good reasons to take a pass with no regret on the trip. But it does seem that some people do seem to enjoy these clergy-led trips, for whatever reason. My point was simply that I don't have a problem with the clergy person taking the freebie that's offered him/her, but I do think any promoting of such a trip that excludes all but the wealthier members should be VERY low key-- "I'm doing this, here's the dates, let me know if you're interested..."
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
[QUOTE]
But my purpose in mentioning the $6000 trip was to fish for the limits - or whether there are any limits - to activities promoted by the church as a church activity that only a few can attend. Dos it matter that only a few can attend because only a few fit the target physical demographic (an event for elders on walkers only) or whether only a few can attend because few fit the financial demographics?
I think your examples here demonstrate precisely the problem-- attempting to increase access in one area (e.g. affordability) often leads to limiting access in another area (e.g. mobility). Do you hold your annual church retreat at an inexpensive campground (excluding elderly who aren't able to sleep on the ground in a tent) or in a comfortable hotel (excluding those who can't afford it)? Do you hold your women's Bible study during school hours to accommodate stay-at-home mothers who don't have child care or in the evening to accommodate working moms?
Every event is going to exclude someone-- by timing, expense, accessibility, etc. You can work to alleviate that, but in the end it is inevitable to some degree. The best you can do IMHO is to work to ensure you're not always excluding the SAME group. If ALL your events are pricey ones, you've got a problem. If all your events favor physically active young people, you've got a problem. Having a variety of events to accommodate as many different needs as possible is the best you can do.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
But my purpose in mentioning the $6000 trip was to fish for the limits - or whether there are any limits - to activities promoted by the church as a church activity that only a few can attend. Dos it matter that only a few can attend because only a few fit the target physical demographic (an event for elders on walkers only) or whether only a few can attend because few fit the financial demographics?
...
It takes a lot of money to run churches and denominations the way we are doing it. To what extent is it legitimate to limit events to people with extra money? Can churches survive if they don't treat rich people differently than poor?
I think these are worthy questions to ask.
I also think they are meaningless questions if they are not accompanied by asking whether every church event/activity needs to specifically include every single person. The inevitable result of trying to please everybody at once is that you end up with tofu - it's bland and pleases nobody.
Surely it would be better to diversify so that every person has active groups and events where they belong, where they take ownership and where they are empowered to serve in ministry. So long as all groups and events are regularly acknowledged in the "full" gatherings on Sundays and 1 Corinthians 12:22 is practised in giving special honour to the less glamorous but indispensable ministries.
As a fairly large church, the congregation I'm a part of (not "I attend") have a very wide spectrum of people no matter which way you look at it. To take one example, having numerous people who use mobility aids to get around doesn't mean we should disband the fishing/hiking group that is a very active and productive evangelistic ministry which our church couldn't do without. If they are active and putting on many events which produce great fruit then that should be honoured as a good thing, not shut down because there are some for whom it won't work.
Or for the simple version: start something new that is appropriate for the people you see being excluded instead of just complaining about other stuff that is inappropriate.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
As for the services of a tour guide - again, why? A decent guide book will tell you all you need to know, really you're just paying for a glorified travel company rep.
Indeed - the tour guides are usually in the pay of the Israeli government, directly or indirectly, and give a somewhat biased account and lack knowledge of from an insider Christian perspective.
I managed to guide a school party around Israeli without an external guide.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
As for the services of a tour guide - again, why? A decent guide book will tell you all you need to know, really you're just paying for a glorified travel company rep.
Indeed - the tour guides are usually in the pay of the Israeli government, directly or indirectly, and give a somewhat biased account and lack knowledge of from an insider Christian perspective.
I managed to guide a school party around Israeli without an external guide.
That's all well and good if you're competent enough to self-guide your tour including all the logistical issues associated with travelling as a group. If you're not, you need somebody else to do it.
It's been posted on here in the past that some think many church movements in the USA are thoroughly penetrated by the Israeli government, so even an 'insider' provider of these services might be just as compromised. It would be just like going to the supermarket and seeing two products seemingly competing in the same category, then finding out that both are actually brands owned by the same parent corporation anyway.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
On the flip side, I pastor a church that until recently was precisely what the more extreme posters here are advocating-- so deathly afraid of doing anything that wasn't accessible/ available to absolutely everyone that they hadn't done really anything at all for a very very long time. It took a solid two years of meetings where I'd announce the date of the next youth retreat/ service project/ VBS/ choral concert only to have some helpful person raise their hand to very kindly inform me that that won't work because Jimmy has a tuba lesson/ Wilma's having bunion surgery/ I can't invite my neighbor who only speaks Lithuanian... Imagine their shock (and they were) when they finally realized my answer inevitably was "I'm sorry to hear that. Let Jimmy know we'll miss him and hope he can make the next event."
Again, do your best, be as sensitive and available as you can, and take care not to always exclude the same group. Anything more than that will lead to absolute paralysis.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I asked permission to attend a half-day conference to hear a bishop speak about a topic I was actively pursuing myself, I couldn't afford the fee plus travel costs so I proposed they let me attend and hear his speech at no fee in exchange for which they would not give me the "free" copy of his book. No. Pay or stay home. So I asked if the speech would be available on the web. No, pay or never hear these "new and exciting ideas" he is presenting.
It takes a lot of money to run churches and denominations the way we are doing it. To what extent is it legitimate to limit events to people with extra money? Can churches survive if they don't treat rich people differently than poor?
As I implied above, I think the issues you raise are born out of a surfeit of riches in the church. It sounds as though your denomination is so flush with members and money that they think they can afford to disregard members who are a bit hard up.
It's quite ironic really. It doesn't sound very caring, but churches often have to be forced into caring by circumstances. Sad but true.
British churches have suffered so much decline that they can't afford to be so cavalier. Denominations and parachurch organisations try at the very least to pay lip service to the idea of inclusion. Workshops, courses and other events often have concessionary rates for the low paid or unemployed, and sometimes all expenses are paid. I've benefited from this myself.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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