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Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on :
 
This morning the festival of St Michael and All Angels was celebrated at my church. It made me wonder about whether one would ask angels to intercede as with human saints. I am not keen to rehash the question of whether prayer involving human saints is appropriate, but if it is, what do you think about involving angels ?
 
Posted by Francophile (# 17838) on :
 
Is there not but one interceder between man and God, the Lord Jesus Christ?
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
I like to believe angels are there to minister over us, as they did Jesus in the wilderness .
Probably doing so when our need is great while, at the same time, our awareness of their presence may be barely noticeable.
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
Curiously, somebody mentioned doing this on Songs of Praise this evening.

My default position is much as Francophile's but since angels are God's messengers and Jacob saw them going up and down the ladder, I suppose it might be possible to ask one to take a message back. I suspect that if this is legitimate, there's a difference between asking them to intercede for you, and praying to them direct, i.e. as though they have a spiritual authority of their own. That feels a bit iffy.
 
Posted by SeraphimSarov (# 4335) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
Is there not but one interceder between man and God, the Lord Jesus Christ?
Their angels intercede with them before the Throne of God, I remember reading somewhere [Smile]

So... Why can't the angels and saints intercede before Christ?
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I suspect that if this is legitimate, there's a difference between asking them to intercede for you, and praying to them direct, i.e. as though they have a spiritual authority of their own. That feels a bit iffy.
Angels are emanations of God, though.

The Irish Catholic belief is that everyone without exception has a guardian angel. I'm fine with that. Mine has been working overtime. You can ask them to help you when you need it - it's what they're there for.
 
Posted by hanginginthere (# 17541) on :
 
I went to a school dedicated to St Michael so I have always felt myself to be under his protection, and feel quite comfortable asking for angelic protection for those I love (some of whom need it badly at the moment so have been praying extra hard for them today!)
 
Posted by Edith (# 16978) on :
 
My daughter is Gabrielle, we've always celebrated her feast day, but when she asked me 'What is an angel?' I was unable to answer. Answers welcome
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
According to the sermon this morning, angels are those who help us at time of need. It was carefully left open whether these angels were human or supernatural, because that actually wasn't the point - it's what they do that counts. At which point the preacher 'carelessly' dropped all his notes. And one of the choristers went to help him pick them up. 'Oh look, that's an angel!', he cried.
 
Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Edith:
My daughter is Gabrielle, we've always celebrated her feast day, but when she asked me 'What is an angel?' I was unable to answer. Answers welcome
The word I believe, purely means messenger (so anyone who is an ev-angel* is in the wordy sense literally described as an angel in the bible).


The word is also used to refer to things that are different. As it were Angels**.

Ezekial and Isaiah both describe visions of terrific beings that are close to God. They use the words Cherubim and Seraphim.
Daniel describes an dream encounter with Michael, who again seems to be a different class. This is translated as angel (and he does indeed perform scouting/messenger duty). There are other odd occasions (e.g. in Joshua&Judges), could be a well placed human, but gives the impression of something other.
By the time of Jesus I understand there to be a Jewish theology of these beings with (at least when cast into english) the term Angel being used as a superclass.

In the NT the word itself is clearly used.
The Gabriel Zechariah reports meeting seems extraordinary and make big boasts (and likewise for the shepherds). Yet they are described as Angels.
Paul lists them as things that can't separate us from God's love (to be compared to life&death).
etc...
Revelation picks up all these images too.

What they are, I don't think is made too clear. But they are clearly portrayed as awesome, close to God, (often) serving God, under Jesus' name.

To tie in with OP, at least some seem concerned with humanity, inordinately less than their boss but almost certainly more than some of the humans we ask to pray for us. :fencesit:


*not to be confused with how the denomination/faction insists.
**Many churchy words have mundane Greek meanings, but also sometimes seem to be used to mean something more (Apostle, Deacon, Ecclesia), leading to fun and games.
 
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
Could it be that we can be angels ourselves?

I say this because a number of years ago (a half century ago) my father and I were hunting up in the mountains. After a day of hunting we went back to our car which we had parked at a church camp, but the battery was dead. So we had to walk a couple of miles to a cabin where we knew some people were living. When the man came to answer the door, we could tell he and his wife had been having a "conversation." Still they were willing to help us. They helped us jump the battery in our car and followed us to the main road.

Once we got to the main road, the man stopped us and asked if we were members of the church which owned the camp. We were. He asked us about the church and we made an invitation for him to come.
While he did not come, it did seem God had used us as angels to make the invitation.

There have also been times when I have experienced trials in my life and God sent people into my life to get me through those times.

In my mind, angels do not have to be supernatural beings. They can be real life human beings which God uses in supernatural ways.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
There have also been times when I have experienced trials in my life and God sent people into my life to get me through those times.
Yes, and I can think of one particular specific time. What was interesting about this person was that she would never have called herself a Christian and would never normally even have set foot inside a church. Which makes it even more remarkable that the time she helped me was inside a church building. 'Angels' aren't always the people you expect. But I remember her with gratitude.
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
My understanding, though I claim no expertise, is that:-

A. The word 'angellos' means messenger, and could originally be used of both a natural and a supernatural messenger.

B. The Bible is unequivocal though, that angels in the usual sense are spiritual beings, not human ones who happen to be doing God's work. Also, they really exist, even though most of the time we can't see them.

C. They are not a different sort of human. For one thing, they neither marry nor are given in marriage. Nor do they have 'dominion' over the animals etc.

D. They are not divine. They are part of the created order, created not uncreated, but in the spiritual realm, not the (to us) ordinary physical one we live in.

E. Their main role is as messengers to do God's bidding. They fight his wars in the spiritual realm, and they look after us (Heb 1:14, part of this morning's epistle in the CofE lectionary).

D. Awe-inspiring though they may be, we are not to worship them (Col 2:18)

Perhaps there is a shipmate who does have the theological expertise to correct any of this if I'm wrong, or to say a bit more.
 
Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :
 
Ariel said:
quote:
You can ask them to help you when you need it - it's what they're there for.
As long as you're not asking for help finding a parking space! Honestly, when I hear people saying that their guardian angel helps them find parking spaces or makes the bus late at a previous stop so that they, who are running a bit late, don't miss it (what about the people who are praying to THEIR angels that the bus will be early or on time?!) or other stupid things. I used to be one of those idiots who would implore my guardian angel to "make the bus late so I don't have to run!" and it makes me cringe to remember this...
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
When my daughter was a young teen, she got chewed out at her mom's Protty church's youth group for saying she prayed to her guardian angel. She then had a conversation with the youth group leader that went something like this:

Kid: I have a guardian angel, right?

Leader: Right.

Kid? And it watches over me at all times, right?

Leader: Right.

Kid: It sees everything I do, and hears everything I say, right?

Leader: Right.

Kid: It's always working in my best interests, taking care of me at all times, right?

Leader: Right.

Kid: And I'm not allowed to talk to it?

Leader: <silence>
 
Posted by irish_lord99 (# 16250) on :
 
Sounds like a chip off the old block. [Biased]

As per the notion that Christ is the only one who can intercede "between man and God" do you not believe that Christ is God? Or did you mean the "Father"?

And do you never ask other people to pray for you?

Personally, I am grateful for the prayers of the angels and all the saints, and I do bring them prayer requests frequently.
 
Posted by Emendator Liturgia (# 17245) on :
 
May the divine assistance remain with us always,
the holy angels guard us,
the blessed Virgin Mary,
the archangels Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael,
and all the heavenly host, pray for us,
and +the souls of the faithful departed,
through the love and mercy of God:
rest in peace. Amen.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
I have a particular feeling for Michael, that being one of my baptismal names. I pray to Christ to send Michael to defend me in times of need. I ask Michael directly to defend me just as he led the armies in Heaven against Lucifer, and was the first to wound him. But I do not pray to Michael.

Where I get confused is that much of the teaching of the Heavenly Host place archangels as the second-lowest order, as leaders of angels, but below the Seraphim who stand beside the Throne, the Cherubim who support it, and so forth.
 
Posted by Sighthound (# 15185) on :
 
I can't see harm in talking to an angel, you're just not supposed to worship it. There is a difference between talking to someone and worshipping them - isn't there?
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Exactly.
 
Posted by Felafool (# 270) on :
 
I reckon that young angels spend a lot of their training time perfecting the provision of car parking spaces in answer to prayer. Here's how it works: Archangel Warden sends them off in the early morning to transmogrify into parked cars dotted around the globe. Josephine Christian comes along later in the day, sees the busy town centre and prays for a parking space. At this point, just as Josephine comes around the corner, the angel/car disappears, leaving a fresh empty parking space for the faithful pray-er.
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Edith:
My daughter is Gabrielle, we've always celebrated her feast day, but when she asked me 'What is an angel?' I was unable to answer. Answers welcome
"Angel" from the Greek "angelos", messenger or envoy, is their job description (at least as far as we are concerned): their job is to communicate God's concerns to us, and as in the case of guardian angels, our concerns to God. What angels are by nature is incorporeal spirits, possessing intellect and will. They are immortal persons, but creatures (so they had their beginning thanks to God, but as spirits do not suffer natural decay).

Their intellect is not like ours, since it is not driven by sensory input and the imagination derived from prior sensory input, nor is it then discursive on such input. They comprehend things directly and instantly as they are, as far as God has given them the mental capacity for it. In that way, the lowest angel is by far the intellectual superior of the brightest human being.

Further, this is how angels separate into individuals, a hierarchy and into a number of species: some have more intellectual capacity associated to their nature by God, some less. So "angel" is more like "mammal" than like "human": every angelic spirit is its own species, differentiated from other angelic spirits by its spiritual makeup (whereas we have the same spiritual makeup, hence are one species "human", but differentiate by our bodies into individuals). So Archangel Gabriel and Archangel Michael are to each other not like humans Gabe to Mike, but like fox to wolf. However, as if there only was one fox and one wolf ever (thus making the species the individual by default).

Angels can assume bodies for the purpose of interacting with us, or at least that is the most straightforward explanation of their ability to appear consistently to multiple persons as embodied. These bodies are however not really "alive", but more like highly realistic puppets. Angels are localised more generally not by being in a place, but rather by having to apply their powers to some place (one of their powers being the creation of a puppet body for a time). They are not like God in their incorporeal powers, i.e., they act not everywhere at the same time, but always somewhere at this time.

Demons are simply fallen angels. Their direct sins are pride (in particular disobedience) and envy, but they also can sin indirectly as in leading humans to sin. The devil likely was the most powerful angel of them all, and sinned primarily by wishing to be like God in powers not assigned to him (e.g., creating the universe). As incorporeal beings angels cannot however sin in a bodily manner (e.g., not through gluttony). It is likely that the devil and the demons fell as soon after their creation as they could act in their own will, given the nature of their intellect described above. Unlike for us, there is no hesitation in their intellect and hence in the decisions. By the same argument it is likely that the angels and demons will stick to their decision for or against God, since unlike for us they have no need to revise their intelligence.

Both demons and angels are incapable of reading or influencing our thoughts directly. However, both can masterfully estimate our thoughts from our behaviour and demeanour, and can attempt to sway us via influencing external things. In a sense, demons and angels are locked into a battle, their battlefield is this world, and we are individually the prizes they are fighting over.

More could be said, but that does cover the basics. If you wonder where I know all this from, it is the traditional working out of scriptural data by "Scholastic" philosophy, in particular in the tradition of Aquinas (the bit about every angel being its own species would not be agreed to by all Scholastics, for example).
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
I preached on angels yesterday. As I was also on the intercessions rota (coincidence), I followed up by addressing all the petitions to the various archangels - Raphael for healing etc.

(and the blessing included 'May the holy angels give you a spring in your step...')
 
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
Is there not but one interceder between man and God, the Lord Jesus Christ?
Exactly right, which is why I refuse to pray for anyone.
 
Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
Is there not but one interceder between man and God, the Lord Jesus Christ?
Exactly right, which is why I refuse to pray for anyone.
Say what?!
 
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
Is there not but one interceder between man and God, the Lord Jesus Christ?
Exactly right, which is why I refuse to pray for anyone.
Say what?!
Sarcasm, dear, sarcasm.
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
I don't know much, but there ain't no such thing as a guardian angel. Or perhaps they haven't kept their numbers up to deal with the growth in human populations? No idea what they might guard us from either. Nor any idea of what messages they might transmit. It's a nice idea I guess, but apparently fiction in terms of role given an omniscient god who'd have no need for flunkies to assist in whatever might need attention. Are they in competition with the holy spirit in terms of job description?
 
Posted by Edith (# 16978) on :
 
I've read all of these. Thank to everybody, I think Chorister makes most sense. And in the context of a family chat, it's nice and short.
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Edith:
Thank to everybody, I think Chorister makes most sense..
This? How disappointing... It starts with an untruth contrary to the very Greek word being used ("messenger" does not equal "helper", even if the message is helpful). It continues by carefully avoiding the very distinction of incorporeal spirit (angel) and soul+body (human) that Christianity has always maintained, till about one or two centuries ago when materialism started to burn through the faith. It finishes with a cheap rhetorical trick which implicitly asserts that saying "you are an angel" to a human being is the full truth, rather than simply an idiom of praise. The net result is that people once more will be taught that there is no need to believe in spirits, incorporeal beings. That there is a straightforward line from this to questioning the existence of the incorporeal Spirit, God, is apparently of no further concern. I can sort of respect people who come just straight out and deny the existence of any incorporeal beings but God. I think they are wrong, but at least they make a clear statement with which one can argue. The sermon that Chorister reports however makes my blood boil with anger. That is faith-destroying sophistry. Or perhaps those are just the last spasms of a faith reduced to no more than "do good". At any rate, I'd prefer my son to grow up as humanist atheist rather than to swallow that nonsense.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Actually, it was probably in response to the post after that.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
There is also the thought that humans are the practical outworking in the world of the spiritual promptings. This is the same sentiment as expressed in the Prayer of St. Theresa, here set to music by David Ogden. Perhaps human and spiritual beings combine when someone is ministered to?
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Angels appear when they are most needed - in cases like this who cares whether they are supernatural beings or real humans??!

But it must be hard for people who don't get helped, or the outcome is not so successful.
 
Posted by Cara (# 16966) on :
 
Beautiful story, Chorister.....thank God for that young man.

But I do care whether supernatural angels exist. If they do, if they enter our lives, as so long and so widely believed, this hugely expands and illuminates one's idea of the world and the universe....

They would be messengers. They would be signs of God's mercy to us in this world where it is so hard (usually) to believe in things unseen and supernatural....

So I too feel cheated when someone says, oh well, it doesn't matter, man or angel, help came....As when someone says, oh well, the resurrection, maybe was just the idea and spirit of Jesus living on, not really him at all, what matters is that he lived on in some way...

I want there to be miracles and angels and supernatural things! And this is a natural part of being human, I think. (Why?)
But then Jesus did say, oh foolish generation, you seek a sign....

I should look up the context of this I guess...can't remember if he meant, we shouldn't always be looking for signs, OR, there is a sign and I am it, right here before you!
 
Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :
 
CS Lewis is pretty good on angels. [Cool] Check out 'Perelandra'. [Smile]

I believe in angels. They are messengers from God, e.g. the archangel Gabriel in Scripture.

The Archangel Michael - mentioned in Daniel and Revelation - is the traditional defender of the Jewish people. Apparently many Jews DID pray to him, despite some rabbis not approving of the practice.

As an evangelical, I've never prayed to the saints or the angels, although I no longer have a 'noooooo that's all wrong' knee-jerk reaction to such.

I love angels though. [Smile] I love the concept of them, and love the representations of them in art. But my love for them is deeper than aesthetics. Angels are holy, and forever worshipping the Lord in the beauty of holiness. I find them awesome and mysterious.

I am also prepared to believe that angels can sometimes appear in human form.
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
I'm with Laurelin on this. Saying , 'people can be angels for us when they being us some message or help us' is all very well but all too often driven by a wish to demythologise, to keep at arms length the challenging, exciting but slightly threatening thought that there might be real angels and a real supernatural.

It's a wish to domesticate heaven, to make it as much like Granny's parlour as possible. It goes with 'having doubts about' the virgin birth because that isn't how gynaecology normal works.
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
It's entirely possible that help through humans is sometimes inspired by angels, who may not be able to physically intervene but can prompt someone to be in the right place at the right time, say the right thing, etc.
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
I love their androgeneity and substance-less-ness.
I love their lifestyle (endless worship).
I love how Milton describes their sexuality in Paradise Lost.
I want to believe in the existence of non-material created gender-less beings and decided there was no reason why I shouldn't 5 minutes ago.
(After many years humming and ha-ing I was convinced by Laurelin after reading her post 3 times)
 
Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :
 
There's a big difference between "praying to" in the sense of directly worship and "praying to" in a less precise sense that really means "speaking to in order to request prayer for." When we "pray to" the saints or angels it isn't like "praying to" God; it's asking them to pray to God with us. We do this with living human beings all the time.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
I wonder what the anti-praying-to-angels people do at Christian when singing 'O come all ye faithful' - at the bit when the angels are invoked:
quote:
Sing, choirs of angels..
Or during 'Praise my soul the king of heaven
quote:
angels, help us to adore him


[ 04. October 2013, 15:42: Message edited by: leo ]
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
But it must be hard for people who don't get helped, or the outcome is not so successful.
It is, indeed. But this argument goes way beyond angels; this is an argument against intercessory prayer altogether. Or at least against its being answered.
 


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