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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: An Anglican Church Closure in the UK
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I'm putting out feelers here......
......a neighbouring (though not contiguous) parish in our Deanery is facing dissolution of the actual parish, and closure of the church building for public worship. The ostensible reason for this is the rather specious one (IMHO) that the town is over-provided with large church buildings.......although it could be counter-argued that there are too few Christians, and that mission and evangelism should be the priorities of the Deanery and Diocese!
Questions, mainly to UK shipmates who might have been involved in something similar:
(1) How does the legal process run, and how long might it take before the plug is finally pulled?
(2) How might another parish (e.g. ours) offer a welcome and refuge to those whose church is being closed, bearing in mind some differences in churchmanship (we're F in F + A-C, they're MOTR - and had a female Vicar last time round)?
Just for info - the parish in question (population around 8000, mostly residential) has a large but well-kept late-19thC church, is reasonably free of debt, and has a Sunday congregation of 35-40 (mostly but not exclusively aged over 60). ISTM (and others with some imagination) that there is a great deal of scope for adapting the church building for residential or community use, whilst retaining space for Christian worship and witness, and for linking them to a neighbouring parish.....but if the Diocese isn't willing to explore these possibilities, what can be done? AFAICS, all Head Office wants is the money from the sale of the site of the church...
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Are you saying that Maybe this need not happen?
Or are you saying that the decisions have been made (by the PCC and the archdeacon) and that their clock is ticking?
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
AS Ethne Alba says, a church can't be closed without the PCC deciding to do it. Exeter Diocese has a useful webpage and a linked downloadable flow chart. Also the C of E website has useful information. If it's already been decided and there are no objections then it could all be done in a matter of months.
Partial leasing is an option that can be explored, if the parish has enthusiasm for it. If the church does close then the 'territory' of the parish will be assigned to (an)other parish(es) adjacent to it and that is where the responsibility for pastoral care will lie.
Your usual warm welcome for newcomers would be appropriate, I'm sure, for any who come your way.
If the church closes then the diocese will eventually get two thirds of the sale proceeds assuming there aren't any reversionary trusts.
I'm sure they won't turn up their nose at the money, but I expect just as big a concern is preparing for the 20-25% reduction in the number of stipendiary clergy that we are facing in the next 5-10 years.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
A few thoughts:-
First one, 'the town is over-provided with large church buildings' or 'there are too few Christians, and that mission and evangelism should be the priorities of the Deanery and Diocese!'.
The notion that the reason for mission and evangelism is that we've got acres of yawning empty buildings that need to be filled, is missing the point.
I'd only see that as justification for keeping a building if the present congregation were filling it. The possibility that if things were different, they might, is not very persuasive. They aren't.
Second "a neighbouring (though not contiguous) parish". If a parish is closed, its area will be added to another or others. I'd have thought it unlikely that would be you, if you aren't physically next to them.
Third, it would be up to the individuals who were bereft of their church where they go, whether they accept wherever the diocese transfers them to, whether they go elsewhere or whether they give up in a huff.
Finally, is it actually your vision that somehow your parish and this one could be linked, that this would add to both of you, and perhaps this other parish might not die out after all? If so, that's a very different question.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
From what I hear, the clock is indeed ticking for this parish, and there is now little or no hope of avoiding closure.
There is no plan (however tenuous)on anyone's part to link the parish with ours. AFAIK, the plan is to divide the territory between the 3 adjoining parishes (all of which are quite large enough already!).
Point taken re the building, Enoch, and you may well be right. I do wish, though, that it could be retained for community use as well as worship - but I expect it will be demolished (eventually) and the site sold for housing.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
There's an interesting parish church in the centre of Walsall, next to the bus station. The ground floor has been converted into a shopping mall, with a small side chapel retained for private prayer, and a floor has been put in to make the upstairs into a worship area for services. When I first went to have a look I was quite impressed.
Obviously, this church is in the right place for this kind of thing, but not all churches are. The other problem is that church conversions are incredibly expensive. I don't know how much that one cost, but my ex-church (not Anglican) looked into converting the building, and we were told it would be cheaper to demolish it and start again. And even if there's funding available, most congregations tend to leave these decisions until they're in deep water, by which time it's probably too late.
Isn't it possible for you to sell your building and buy or even rent somewhere cheaper? I know that Anglicans don't normally do this. In a few decades you might have to change your policy.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Intriguingly, I've just done a spot of Googling, and think I have identified which parish this is - would it begin with a St.B by any chance?
If that's the one - and it seems to fit - there is a letter on the web on behalf of the PCC which objects to the closure.
It makes a number of other points. It seems that there was a catastrophic loss of parishioners during the previous incumbent's tenure (no explanations why) and that following that there was an inability to meet their parish share. Though they now say (presumably following her departure) that they have turned the finances around, are paying their share, and as they have no incumbent or share of one they are in fact contributing positively to diocesan finances. I assume they are paying a retired or part-time priest to take their services.
I don't know anything about this beyond what I've read here and in that letter, but as the arguments from the diocese seem to be financial, I wonder if the closure will actually go ahead?
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
In these situations it's understandable for emotions to be running high but feelings don't change potential pastoral reorganisation. Facts do that and in cases like this facts can be unpalatable. No wonder folk either give up or blow up
* Being able to understand that a massive change is required is the first difficulty and some PCCs just can’t grasp that, or at least not immediately + maybe they might react in a different way to a different messenger?
* Working out what those possible changes might/ could look like takes time, but not forever and there is help out there for churches that want to get themselves out of a hole.
* Having the personnel to effect that change (whilst of course acknowledging that all comes from God) can be difficult, but not insurmountable.
* Paying the parish share is an absolute minimum requirement: if a PCC can’t / won’t pay + won’t even talk about the Why / Can’t…then some diocesan staff may struggle to take that parish seriously. After all, that decision indicates that discussion/ trust/ conversation/ relationship has broken down.
* A number of mutually supportive partnerships at this stage are absolutely vital and can go some way to sorting the parish share problem in the short term. Without sensible partnerships the axe will no doubt fall swiftly. But with sensible partnerships, who knows? The sky is the limit.
But all this is theoretical isn’t it?
We have no idea where this specific parish is up to and tbh I have no inclination to find out. But there will be other parishes up and down the UK facing the same dilemma this autumn. Being in this situation is heart breaking and can be soul destroying; for incumbent, for lay leaders, for parishioners and also the community around~ this church is/ was also theirs.
I can see why some diocese move quickly though and it can seem heartless. But there does need to be a time to stop talking and start acting. It’s just getting that timing right.
I hope their time is not now, but if it is my prayers are with the parishioners and their community.
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
(2) How might another parish (e.g. ours) offer a welcome and refuge to those whose church is being closed, bearing in mind some differences in churchmanship (we're F in F + A-C, they're MOTR - and had a female Vicar last time round)?
How does a F in F church provide a welcome to those who have been happy to serve God under the leadership of a woman? I would have thought it is obvious. Either you change, or you demand that they change. Demanding change from others is not often seen as welcoming.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
(2) How might another parish (e.g. ours) offer a welcome and refuge to those whose church is being closed, bearing in mind some differences in churchmanship (we're F in F + A-C, they're MOTR - and had a female Vicar last time round)?
How does a F in F church provide a welcome to those who have been happy to serve God under the leadership of a woman? I would have thought it is obvious. Either you change, or you demand that they change. Demanding change from others is not often seen as welcoming.
I am happy to accept anyone the church chooses to ordain as a priest; in my opinion Catholics do not stand in judgement of their priests, or the validity of their ordination.
I have never found any problem worshipping alongside my FiF brothers and sisters. They understand and accept me for who I am, and I understand and accept them for who they are. This has never been an issue, in any church. I attend some FiF events; I attend FiF churches from time to time, and indeed worshipped in one for well over a year, without any problem. This has never been an issue.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Ethne Alba - there is much good sense in your last posting. But I put up the information in my previous post because it looks to me that the PCC are not prepared to sign a proposal to close which from the Dio. of Exeter's website looks to be a legal requirement. There may of course exist parishes whose PCC's stick their heads in the sand, and I may be barking up the wrong tree in thinking I have identified the parish. But if not - and if the parish looks like having turned around a situation not of their making - then where do they stand?
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
In answer to Hairy Biker and Anglo-Catholic Relict - although we are officially F-in-F, by no means all of the PCC (including myself) or the congregation as a whole subscribe to F-in-F's views! Even our P-in-C only has reservations about women priests on theological grounds (sorry about the stench of deceased equine) - he regularly meets with, and prays with and for, those women priests serving our Deanery.
Or, to put it another way, we wear the Resolutions A, B, and C as lightly as we can.
Or, to put it yet another way, we welcome into our community of faith anyone, of any persuasion, no matter what their views might be. We are at present working with our local Baptist congregation, and also a Punjabi Evangelical church's leader........
I take the point, though, but I believe that anyone from St. X who came to us would be made welcome. The fact that their last Vicar was female is, in a sense, neither here nor there - I didn't know her personally, but it does seem that she was not perhaps quite the right person for the parish (and that can happen regardless of gender!).
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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aig
Shipmate
# 429
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Posted
bishop's finger wrote
We wear the Resolutions A, B and C as lightly as we can
If this is the case - why not ditch them?
I don't mind attending FinF churches occasionally, but I prefer them to be resolution free, as I like the glimmer of hope that offers.
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That's not how we do it here.......
Posts: 464 | From: the middle bit at the bottom slightly to the right | Registered: Jun 2001
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
A key part of welcoming any of those who join your parish would be to warmly welcome any of them who choose to get involved in serving, and offer an accelerated path to taking up leadership positions for those who want to serve in that way. If attitudes to women in leadership are getting in the way of that, then it would be best to keep a low profile throughout the issue and be honest about that so nobody joins and is given an artificial welcome that lasts only until they bang their head on the glass ceiling.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
aig - I only wish we could! But, pro tem, it makes practical sense to keep them, as we are the only ABC parish in the town, and the Bishop has hinted that he would like to keep it that way.
the giant cheeseburger - exactly!
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
Near me a C of E vicar recently retired, was not replaced and his Parish then merged with the adjoining one. His church was regarded as redundant (very bad position - no Car Parking)had approximately 35 members and was then sold to a new Evangelical lot. We expect them to re-open any day soon and fill it up. (Could hold 150 I guess).
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
Near me a C of E vicar recently retired, was not replaced and his Parish then merged with the adjoining one. His church was regarded as redundant (very bad position - no Car Parking)had approximately 35 members and was then sold to a new Evangelical lot. We expect them to re-open any day soon and fill it up. (Could hold 150 I guess).
At least the venue will be put to good use, it can be a mixed bag if a church building gets sold to a non-church group.
An old Church of Christ building in the city of Adelaide has made an excellent venue for a great cafe and live music venue that is a very nice fit for the building. I've also seen an excellent example of it going horribly wrong, a former church building in the southern suburbs is now a seedy lingerie/adult store ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
I expect just as big a concern is preparing for the 20-25% reduction in the number of stipendiary clergy that we are facing in the next 5-10 years.
Just curious - I guess this reflects Boomers retiring. Are there not enough replacements in seminary? Or plenty of replacements but not enough money to pay them? Or so many retirees willing to work for house only there is no need to hire paid ones? Or - ?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
I expect just as big a concern is preparing for the 20-25% reduction in the number of stipendiary clergy that we are facing in the next 5-10 years.
Just curious - I guess this reflects Boomers retiring. Are there not enough replacements in seminary? Or plenty of replacements but not enough money to pay them? Or so many retirees willing to work for house only there is no need to hire paid ones? Or - ?
If England is facing similar challenges as are faced in post-christendom Australia, probably both of the retirement and money issues.
Some of our denominations are also plagued by too many ordained ministers working at the central offices in roles that don't necessarily require a minister when there are vacancies needing to be filled in congregations. They are still working full-time and still on the payroll, but sometimes you have to wonder if some of them are really that productive and could maybe do the same job part-time while serving a congregation with the other part.
A good example of this is our previous state youth and young adults coordinator who never put on any useful training events, was never seen preaching to young people on a Friday night or churches on a Sunday morning/evening or even just turning up on a Friday night to support and encourage the youth leaders. I don't know what he did with his time or why somebody thought he was up to the job (he wasn't really that suited to even doing youth ministry, let alone leading or resourcing them, as evidenced by the youth leaders from even his own congregation being very awkward and untrained) so maybe he was promoted out of harm's way.
I suspect that a new understanding of ordination will start to become common in the coming years, that people with lesser levels of training (i.e. diplomas or certificates rather than degrees) will be ordained to their role rather than to a permanent ministry role, in order to maintain ministry through part-time or even voluntary pastoral positions (which would be self-supporting through maintaining another job alongside it) when the money runs out for full-time positions and putting prospective ministers through four year degrees. Of course, the larger and older the denomination the more inertia you get and the longer it will take to come round to the necessary reforms.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Some of our denominations are also plagued by too many ordained ministers working at the central offices in roles that don't necessarily require a minister when there are vacancies needing to be filled in congregations.
out of harm's way...
I suspect that a new understanding of ordination will start to become common in the coming years, that people with lesser levels of training (i.e. diplomas or certificates rather than degrees) will be ordained to their role rather than to a permanent ministry role...
#1 sounds like the cultural tendency to see administrative jobs as a step "up the ladder" from or more desirable (and higher paid) than hands on jobs.
#2 sounds like what Methodists used to do. The Methodist church in USA started out with a severe "clergy shortage" and a system of lay leaders. "Lay Speakers" are licensed to give the sermon in their church (or on invitation in nearby churches), which effectively means plan and lead the service when no clergy person is available. "Lay Pastors" are licensed to do everything clergy can do, marry and bury and holy communion, but only in the specific church they are appointed to.
Both of these programs are pretty much ignored now, there are some of each kind of lay leader in some places but not many. Mostly, when a clergy person goes on vacation he appoints someone he likes from the congregation to take over whether or not "licensed" for that role. Also, where I am, Methodists simply remove all clergy support from churches considered "too small" without trying to recruit someone from the congregation to become Lay Speaker or Local Pastor.
A friend who is a "Lay Speaker" says he gets invited to cover for a nearby church's pastor's illness or vacation a few times a year and although the work is unpaid, most (not all) nearby churches that invite him hand him a check, sometimes a token amount to cover gas, sometimes $100 or more.
Local Pastors described Of course, for churches that believe only ordained can give sermons or prepare holy communion, this model won't work unless theology changes.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
My understanding is that the CoE has too many ordained ministers and can't afford to pay them. A friend of mine thinks we will have to return to the tentmaking model (ministers having a secular job to pay the bills, while serving the Church in their spare time) because there just aren't the funds to pay salaries for everyone.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
At precisely the time that volunteering is collapsing?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Local Pastors described Of course, for churches that believe only ordained can give sermons or prepare holy communion, this model won't work unless theology changes.
Without reading all the link, it seems very similar to what Local Ordained Ministers in the C of E do. This has involved a change of practice but not theology: they are ordained as deacon and priest and have exactly the same status as conventional clergy, but their licence (which all priests must have) is specifically for their home parish.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Local Pastors described Of course, for churches that believe only ordained can give sermons or prepare holy communion, this model won't work unless theology changes.
Without reading all the link, it seems very similar to what Local Ordained Ministers in the C of E do. This has involved a change of practice but not theology: they are ordained as deacon and priest and have exactly the same status as conventional clergy, but their licence (which all priests must have) is specifically for their home parish.
One problem bi-vocational clergy (such as those licensed to only their home base) have expressed in various on-line discussions is the denomination requires them to attend district all-clergy meetings at times that are OK for full time paid clergy but require bi-vocationals to use their limited vacation days from work to attend the mid-week daytime meetings. The system is run for the full-timers and ignores the needs of those working free by having a secular job. Takes sensitivity to the needs of both groups to make it work well!
And the bi-vos say they are ostracized by the paid professional clergy at the meetings. But it seems in any profession there's a tendency for those who got there the "normal" way, in this case attending seminary etc, to disdain or resent those who get there without "paying the dues we paid."
In the case like in the OP where a church may be closed for not being able to support paid clergy, is there any effort to discuss with the congregation whether one or more of them might be good candidates for LOM training?
[ 04. October 2013, 21:03: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
British Methodism uses lay local preachers extensively, but there's still a shortage of them.
I'd be interested to know how much authority CofE Local Ordained Ministers have. Do they administer the sacraments? Do they wear clerical dress? Do ordinary Anglican churchgoers look at them in the same light as the other ordained clergy? If so then they have much more power than Methodist local preachers, so they can't really be compared.
Baptist and United Reformed congregations are more flexible, because they're able to run their churches with no paid or ordained minister if they have to. But Methodist churches have to close if they can't pay the circuit the required contribution towards their minister's salary. CofE congregations don't seem to bear the same financial burden as the Methodists, but unresolved financial difficulties are the undoing of every congregation in the end.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
In answer to Honest Ron Bacardi:
Were any parish to find themselves in a situation similar to the one mentioned in the OP, then calm discussions with the area dean and archdeacon is usually a good start.
But it will require change. Writ large.
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
....I put up the information in my previous post because it looks to me that the PCC are not prepared to sign a proposal to close which from the Dio. of Exeter's website looks to be a legal requirement. There may of course exist parishes whose PCC's stick their heads in the sand, and I may be barking up the wrong tree in thinking I have identified the parish. But if not - and if the parish looks like having turned around a situation not of their making - then where do they stand?
The way it seems to work, from my experience, is that a plan for closure will be drawn up long before the PCC knows anything about it. The plan will include a timetable for bringing about the closure and information given to the congregation and PCC will be carefully controlled. There will be open meetings for the congregation, perhaps a parish 'away-day' and the PCC will meet with the Archdeacon. It's not supposed to be a foregone conclusion and can't be presented as such but the process of consultation will be engineered to ensure that any possible alternative is blocked. Joining with another parish may simply be an interim measure.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
... a plan for closure will be drawn up long before the PCC knows anything about it. The plan will include a timetable for bringing about the closure and information given to the congregation and PCC will be carefully controlled. There will be open meetings for the congregation, perhaps a parish 'away-day' and the PCC will meet with the Archdeacon. It's not supposed to be a foregone conclusion and can't be presented as such but the process of consultation will be engineered to ensure that any possible alternative is blocked.
That's what I've seen in other (non church) environments - the higher ups take all the time they want to devise a detailed plan including what they will do with the money saved by the changes. The plan is presented to the lower downs, the people affected, as "not a final plan just an idea, we want to bounce it off you and see what you think."
Lower downs have that one hour to come up with a better plan (and it has to be a complete detailed plan or it won't stand up to management's detailed plan) or find and articulate a huge hole that proves the proposal unworkable - not from their viewpoint but from management's! That means the hole has to be more important to management than the money saving management has its eye on.
I saw management defeated once. Overly-simplifying the story, they were going to sell a church building (with a small but self-supporting congregation) and use the money to pay themselves higher income. Turns out the land was held under a deed that said if the land ever stopped being used for that church, the land ownership reverted to the donor's heirs. Little congregation is still in their church. :-)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
I expect just as big a concern is preparing for the 20-25% reduction in the number of stipendiary clergy that we are facing in the next 5-10 years.
Just curious - I guess this reflects Boomers retiring. Are there not enough replacements in seminary? Or plenty of replacements but not enough money to pay them? Or so many retirees willing to work for house only there is no need to hire paid ones? Or - ?
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
My understanding is that the CoE has too many ordained ministers and can't afford to pay them. A friend of mine thinks we will have to return to the tentmaking model (ministers having a secular job to pay the bills, while serving the Church in their spare time) because there just aren't the funds to pay salaries for everyone.
To respond to both of the above. I think there are a good number of new vocations, but a good percentage drawn from a smaller demographic means that a shortfall is expected, whether or not there is the money to pay for them.
As far as finance is concerned, I think the situation is tight for many dioceses in England, but the picture is very variable. My own diocese for the time being has fixed a vacancy period of a year for parish, during which time they will be supported not only in maintaining services etc., but also in shaping mission action plans etc.
It is hard to predict how the coming shortfall in clergy numbers will relate to available finance. It is like watching two raindrops travelling down a window pane and wondering which will 'win'
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
I expect just as big a concern is preparing for the 20-25% reduction in the number of stipendiary clergy that we are facing in the next 5-10 years.
Just curious - I guess this reflects Boomers retiring. Are there not enough replacements in seminary? Or plenty of replacements but not enough money to pay them? Or so many retirees willing to work for house only there is no need to hire paid ones? Or - ?
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
My understanding is that the CoE has too many ordained ministers and can't afford to pay them. A friend of mine thinks we will have to return to the tentmaking model (ministers having a secular job to pay the bills, while serving the Church in their spare time) because there just aren't the funds to pay salaries for everyone.
To respond to both of the above. I think there are a good number of new vocations, but a good percentage drawn from a smaller demographic means that a shortfall is expected, whether or not there is the money to pay for them.
As far as finance is concerned, I think the situation is tight for many dioceses in England, but the picture is very variable. My own diocese for the time being has fixed a vacancy period of a year for parish, during which time they will be supported not only in maintaining services etc., but also in shaping mission action plans etc.
It is hard to predict how the coming shortfall in clergy numbers will relate to available finance. It is like watching two raindrops travelling down a window pane and wondering which will 'win'
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Baptist Trainfan
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
I think there are a good number of new vocations, but a good percentage drawn from a smaller demographic means that a shortfall is expected, whether or not there is the money to pay for them.
I think too that people are coming to Ministry later. This means that they are able to work for fewer years (although then providing an ongoing pool of useful retirees!)
Thus you need more folk coming through the system just to keep up the numbers; this in turn means that the training costs for each clergy-person are amortised over fewer years, hence driving up costs.
True for all denominations, I think.
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I'd be interested to know how much authority CofE Local Ordained Ministers have. Do they administer the sacraments? Do they wear clerical dress? Do ordinary Anglican churchgoers look at them in the same light as the other ordained clergy?
Yes to the first two - they are ordained just as a parish priest is and are fully able to administer the same sacraments and would wear the same sort of clothing. The third is a little tricky to gauge. My experience of an OLM was that there was a divide in the parish between those who thought she was exercising her role as a priest and those who thought she was getting ideas above her station and doing things and making decisions that should have been the responsibility of the vicar. I think those who had known the OLM before she was ordained (though she had previously been a reader) found the change difficult.
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Avila
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# 15541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
British Methodism uses lay local preachers extensively, but there's still a shortage of them.
I'd be interested to know how much authority CofE Local Ordained Ministers have. Do they administer the sacraments? Do they wear clerical dress? Do ordinary Anglican churchgoers look at them in the same light as the other ordained clergy? If so then they have much more power than Methodist local preachers, so they can't really be compared.
Local preachers are mostly closely compared to the Anglican readers. Except that with the expectations of weekly eucharists the readers don't get as many services. Also they tend to cover funerals as well.
Methodist local preachers can do a funeral but in many parts of the country we only get the funerals of our own folk and their families, whilst the 'not really anything' people often end up with a CofE funeral. So Methodist ministers have less funerals and more likely to know the person and do the service.
Sunday by sunday though we are dependant on our local preachers. I have 6 churches and can't be there every week, we have always had a tradition of sharing ministers and having a strong support from trained lay preachers, and they bring a richness of perspectives, not least as people in similar contexts to those in the pew compared to me as minister getting churchy stuff all week!
In relation to the closure issue in British Methodism only the church council can vote to close, and has to report/account for/seek permission to 'cease to meet' from the circuit and district. The congregation can be encouraged, nudged, pushed towards a closure decision but no-one can force it.
Usually the triggers are getting a bad property report - that the place needs huge amounts to keep it from falling down and they don't have the money. Or the key person that was spinning the plates and doing everything to enable it to keep going is incapacitated, moves away or dies.
We do have to pay the circuit assessment but Anglicans have the parish share which is their equivalent. Some of our smallest churches effectively have so small a % of the minister's time that they do need to organise themselves a lot. But it balances out as the assessment will reflect on the circuit's costs and number of ministers is a big chunk of that. All Methodist churches have a minister linked to them - but that is not a bar to running lots of things locally, and a resource to support the churches, their mission, and link them to the wider church.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Avila
Thanks for that. I was actually a Methodist church steward until a couple of years ago when my church closed, which is why the whole topic of church closure interests me.
I've read that the Methodists close more churches than any other denomination, so it's likely to be something that more Methodists than Anglicans will have experienced, percentage-wise. Perhaps Methodists have some advice to offer! On the other hand, the Methodist experience seems to be a bit different from the Anglican one, for various reasons.
[ 05. October 2013, 15:48: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Avila
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# 15541
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Posted
We close more because when the crunch comes we can. Why?
1. We are not tied to a parish system - and closure means withdrawing from a place at least formally. Not that everywhere needs a Methodist church, but when we are the last church in a community... (some historic parish churches can be outside the current village community, or have had dense new estates)
2. Our buildings are 100-200yrs old rather than ancient historic barns. They are more saleable, more reusable, and more easily adapted to housing etc. We have listed sites but not to the same extent as the parish churches - and chapels are less likely to have graveyards attached, although some do.
Redundant parish churches are still likely to be maintenance burden for the Anglicans so might as well let the remnant continue to have church there - as an outside view...
What I find sad is that when a building issue prompts the closure it is seen as the end of the Methodist gathering in that place. It may be that the building was the burden that stopped them accepting that the time had come. But closure of a building should not automatically mean closure of the church in a place. They can be 'a class' of another Methodist 'society'/church - a sub group so not tied to needing admin and officers, they can meet in homes, or even the village hall.
I wonder if we identify too closely with our bricks and mortar. They are potentially a resource and base for mission (the house churches and school hall meters are moving towards buying buildings these days to enable activities through the week etc) But buildings are also a burden, and in places it is right to be set free from them - without it meaning closure of the congregation.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
I wonder if we identify too closely with our bricks and mortar. They are potentially a resource and base for mission (the house churches and school hall meters are moving towards buying buildings these days to enable activities through the week etc) But buildings are also a burden, and in places it is right to be set free from them - without it meaning closure of the congregation.
I think it's absolutely the case that many Christians identify too closely with the physical building. Yes, there are advantages to having sole or majority use of a building but I personally think they are outweighed by the disadvantages. Let's remain nimble and responsive to God's leading, not tied down to buildings!
What I reckon might work better is for Christians to get involved in (or set up their own) things like pre-schools, lunch clubs, day centres and so on, without it being churches as such that take on the responsibility for buildings. Or at least churches could run buildings with the explicit aim of hiring the space out to other groups for various community activities. It's an absolute travesty (and tragedy!) that many church buildings are barely used apart from on Sundays.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
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Posted
In many places, the town halls and village halls already there cannot fill all their time slots, so there is not going to be much call for hiring out the church instead. The one exception I've noticed is evening concerts - somehow, for classical music anyway, the older churches particularly provide the right ambience. Our church is open during the day for quiet reflection, but also regularly open in the evenings for concerts.
I went to one of the Churches Conservation Trust open days today - they have lots of imaginative ideas on how to use redundant buildings, many involving schools as they realise it's very important to get the next generation interested. But I did notice that, although Somerset and Gloucestershire had lots of redundant churches, Devon had hardly any. Perhaps the Exeter Diocese has managed to find other ways to keep all their 600+ churches open for services? I guess the high number of retired priests in the area must help.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Garden Hermit
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# 109
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Posted
Totally irrelevant but I belong to both the local Methodist and CofE Church. The big difference is that the local Methodists seem to get loads of legacies from their deceased members and can do large Building Projects where the poor old CofE hasn't had a legacy for nearly 30 years.
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
In many places, the town halls and village halls already there cannot fill all their time slots, so there is not going to be much call for hiring out the church instead.
In those situations, IMO the church should hire the town / village hall then! I know it's not the same as having a grand old church building but if it means the Christian community in a particular location becomes sustainable for the longer term then surely it's got to be considered.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
So the people who value coming into church at quiet times to light a candle and pray will have to vie with the playgroup?? How can that help?? Sorry, SCK, that mindset smacks of someone who thinks church is a one hour slot which can be booked for a Sunday, not a 24/7 way of life.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
So the people who value coming into church at quiet times to light a candle and pray will have to vie with the playgroup?? How can that help?? Sorry, SCK, that mindset smacks of someone who thinks church is a one hour slot which can be booked for a Sunday, not a 24/7 way of life.
Each church / benefice etc. in a situation like this just has to weigh up the costs and the benefits, I guess. Sure, it's a good thing to have a dedicated space where people can come at pretty much any time to reflect, pray and so on. But what is the cost (financial, time, organisational etc.) of providing such a space?
Buildings need maintenance, management, heating, lighting, water etc. If the cost of all that can even be afforded, is it the best use of resources?
And if you think I view church as a one hour slot on Sunday rather than a 24/7 way of life, then I have explained myself spectacularly badly. Apologies ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
So the people who value coming into church at quiet times to light a candle and pray will have to vie with the playgroup?? How can that help?? Sorry, SCK, that mindset smacks of someone who thinks church is a one hour slot which can be booked for a Sunday, not a 24/7 way of life.
Without wanting to put words in his mouth, I think it's more that SCK's sense of 24/7 church isn't tied to a particular location, and he feels that quiet times of prayer can be had elsewhere than in the building used for Sunday worship. As someone who needs all the help he can get when trying to draw close to God, I disagree. The existence of "holy ground" is well documented in the Bible, and designating such within a community is extremely helpful for those of us who find prayer difficult.
EDIT: cross-posted with SCK. I'll leave my suppositions in case they're helpful.
[ 05. October 2013, 18:25: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
I wonder if we identify too closely with our bricks and mortar.
Certainly. But both laity and clergy are ambivalent about it, even the ministers who insist that 'the church is the people, not the building'. The impression I got when our church was facing closure was very much that worshipping in someone else's building was a last resort. We didn't discuss the practical implications of renting until very late in the day, and our minister never brought up the theological implications at all.
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Ethne Alba
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# 5804
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Posted
For how long now has the C/E been saying that we cannot carry on as we've always done things?
Ages.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38
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Posted
Thanks, ethne alba and justlooking, for your responses to my questions earlier.
Referring back to the congregation in the OP, I still have a certain reservation about the way these things seem to be handled. My own diocese used to be very rigid in the way they dealt with such things, but have changed over the last ten years and are now a lot more flexible. If something can be worked out that isn't going to cost the diocese then they'll listen.
Having said that, Bishop's Finger and I have exchanged a couple of PM's, and I understand that the existing setup is most likely unsustainable. And perhaps other things could be looked at. For example, I have seen an old, dying parish reinvigorate itself by inviting a group of younger, keen people from a nearby parish to come and effectively take them over. With good will it worked.
I suppose the bit I have trouble with is that there is a nucleus of faithful worshippers, who are rooted in that area. All the other options seem to ignore that as a future strength. If they are so keen to continue, can't that form a part of future scenarios?
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
With creative use of space a quiet sanctuary space can be retained even with other parts of the building being changed for multiple uses.
Not all areas have suitable communal spaces, and the church can be the community hall. I think this is more common in suburbs than in the villages where distance from other facilities encourages the village hall - and they often have the facilities churches lack, such as toilets!
A hundred years ago the Methodist Central halls were a radical step to multipurpose buildings. Many had shop units as part of them for sustainable income, the worship space would be like a concert hall, with concert seating. A fresh expression of its time.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ethne Alba
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# 5804
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Posted
Reasons to close a church; we could be here all day.
It's not really about what a parish is costing the diocese.
It's not about managing to cope with lay provision and neighbouring ministerial cover either.
It's not entirely about size (as that can chnage)
Churches whose buildings appear to be pysically falling apart at the seams, can magically attract funding and resurect themselves. How? It's a miracle to me.
Static congregations can be melted by God's spirit and then attract ministers who are totally different.
A key extended family can join a church and then bring their neighbours and friends.
Local authorities can release land for housing.
the list goes on.
But a PCC must be aware of their churches position in the evolving life cycle of a church. It is imperative.
That way everyone's needs are identified and acknowledged as the church moves forward: those who have cherished the old and truly find difficulty changing, those who need to find a new way in and so far have failed, those who have held things together for so long now, leaders, followers, helpers, trainers, trainees, old, middle aged, young people and children...and the community whose church it also is, even if they don't attend.
i think Church Pastoral Aid Society (CPAS) do some training on this.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
We were faced with (effectively) closure a few years ago, just after our then PP had sought legal advice from the same solicitor as used by our diocese. The matter he wanted advice over? Two large bequests: one for roughly a third of a million (much larger than the testator had ever envisaged) and another for north of 100k.
Fortunately for us both wills had been drawn up in such a way that only our church could benefit. And as soon as the diocese discovered this the subject of our being closed or amalgamated was dropped.
Coincidence?
The people (at St B's ?) whose church faces closure need to ask the Bishop and Archdeacon straight out what they plan: and they should pursue finding their own PP, perhaps on a house-for-duty basis, and funding them.
And if the Parish Share is too much when combined with the cost of their own parish-only supported PP then most fair-minded people would say they had every right to withold a certain amount.
I say this particularly in the light of the fact that (assuming it is the right St B's) the diocese in question has the following staff:
- 1 diocesan bishop
- 3 suffragan bishops
- 1 diocesan Archdeacon
- 5 assistant ("area") archdeacons
and that's before we mention a bishop for extended episcopal care (aka Flying) and no fewer than 6 SIX assistant (retired) bishops.
Why the need for all these chiefs when the diocese says it has too few indians? I say this particularly bearing in mind that 2 of the deaneries cover more than 50% of the total area of the diocese - in other words, most of the diocese is geographically compact so the issue of getting to places doesn't arise.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Agreed.
More talking.More listening.Less haste.
Oh and meetings that make pastoral recommendations or decisions are in the public domain, that means that the appropriate people can ask for a copy and expect to recieve a copy.
But it's a tough call, caught between wanting a free, open and trusting discussion ....and..... needing to minute meetings so that everyone is clear about who said what, when and why.. and in what context.
Oh and public spats (whilst entirely understandable) tend to exasperate and produce heat rather than light.
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
<snip>I say this particularly in the light of the fact that (assuming it is the right St B's) the diocese in question has the following staff:
- 1 diocesan bishop
- 3 suffragan bishops
- 1 diocesan Archdeacon
- 5 assistant ("area") archdeacons
and that's before we mention a bishop for extended episcopal care (aka Flying) and no fewer than 6 SIX assistant (retired) bishops.
Why the need for all these chiefs when the diocese says it has too few indians?<snip>
According to the Diocesan website, assuming we are talking about the same south-east of London diocese, there are the following "senior staff"- 1 Diocesan bishop (paid for by the Church Commissioners)
- 1 Suffragan bishop (ditto)
- 3 Archdeacons (paid for out of diocesan funds/parish offer)
- 17 Area/Rural deans (parish clergy with pastoral and limited oversight responsibilities for a group of their colleagues, and for the Deaneries - often with a modest (c5%) increment to their stipend (=c2% of employment cost) for the add'l workload/responsibility)
No assistant archdeacons are mentioned, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. In places where I have come across them it has been a role filled by clergy with existing parochial or sector responsibilities without payment of additional stipend.
Assistant Bishops are not usually a charge on Diocesan resources (except possibly for expenses for work they do). They tend to be used for confirmations, pastoral care of clergy, support of readers etc etc. The 'flying' bishop is also not usually a charge on a diocese - again being resourced by the Church Commissioners.
Between them they exercise oversight for 218 parishes/268 churches, as well as fulfilling other functions in the diocese. TBH that doesn't seem to me to be a hugely heavy load of chiefs to indians. Effectively it is only 5 people deployable at will.
The flying bishop (usually a nearby diocesan or suffragan) only goes to parishes which ask him, and is not otherwise a resource for the diocese. The area/rural deans are already parochially deployed. The assistant bishops tend to do variable amounts, but it is the voluntary ministry of the retired. In my area, they often help out with ordinary parish Sunday services in the areas where they live, as well as doing some episcopal things when requested.
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