Ship of Fools: Our Lady of Knock?

Thread: Our Lady of Knock? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Peter Spence (# 14085) on :

In 1879 fifteen villagers reported that they had seen Jesus as the Lamb of God on an altar, Saint Joseph, St John the Evangelist and the Blessed Virgin Mary all appear on the gable wall of the parish church. Outside of Mass almost all devotions at the Shrine are directed at the person of Mary and it is billed as a 'Marian Shrine' rather than, say, a 'Eucharistic Shrine'. Wondering why this should be. (Still learning ship skills so no link but if you type in knock shrine you'll get there.)

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

No idea, unless it's got something to do with late-19th century Marian devotion. There seem to have been a number of Marian apparitions and dedications championed by the RC Church around the late 19th and early 20th centuries - Lourdes and Fatima.

It's an interesting observation that in the case of Knock, the devotion should be directed towards Mary and not the subject of the Eucharistic vision - if that's what it was.

Some kindly RC posters might enlighten us but part of me wonders whether it was force of habit - or something to do with an increasing emphasis on Mary following the dogmatic Papal decree about the Assumption in 1850 - although RCs would obviously argue that the Pope was simply setting the 'imprimatur' on what the RC Church had always believed.

Whatever the case, there does seem to have been a renewed interest in popular Marian devotion at that time so perhaps the dedication in the Knock instance was simply part of that trend?

Posted by Peter Spence (# 14085) on :

Thanks G and point taken re other Marian Shrines, though as far as I know Mary alone appeared at these whereas Knock had a somewhat bigger cast.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

Small point of correction: it was the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception that was proclaimed in the 1850s (1854 IIRC); the Assumption was 1950.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Ok - thanks Matt. My bad. [Hot and Hormonal]

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Outside of Mass almost all the devotions are directed towards the Virgin Mary,says Peter Spence.
From the programme of the day at Knock ,Mass is celebrated at,8,9,10,12,15,and 19.30 on Sundays and Holy Days.
On other days at 9,11,12,15 and 19.30.
At 14.00 there are Stations of the Cross and recitation of the Rosary followed by concelebrated Mass with anointing of the sick.
Between 10.00 and 19.00 there is Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament.
In all this the only 'Marian' devotion is the recitation of the rosary,much of which recalls the mysteries of Christ's birth,life,passion,death and resurrection.

Posted by Peter Spence (# 14085) on :

Fair enough FV but I'd still be grateful to know why the shrine is presented as a specifically Marian one -my main question.

Posted by Clotilde (# 17600) on :

An interesting question. I think Forthview may be being slightly provocative, even if unwillingly, the same kind of comment could be made about most 'marian' shrines couldn't it, Forthview?

We do say 'Our Lady of Knock' and invoke Our Lady at times by that title, but don't invoke, say, St John of Knock...

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

I have no guess as to why Mary would take precedence, in the popular piety surrounding this apparition/vision, over Christ, but she would certainly take precedence over all the other saints depicted, and in fact over all other saints, period.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

There are tons of "Our Lady of..."s, but not a lot of "Our Lord of..."s. Maybe that's why?

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

I was certainly not meaning to be provocative.The OP asked about the devotions at the shrine and I gave the list of devotions as published by the shrine authorities .If the OP wanted to know why there is devotion to the Virgin Mary he should have asked that question. It is a big topic to which I cannot give a simple answer.In most people's life their mother is a signicant peeverrson and for many followers of Christ there is a real devotion to his mother.For Catholics this does not detract from the reverence due to the Saviour.
While there may indeed be shrines in every country
honouring the Mother of Christ,absolutely every
Catholic church is built to provide as fitting as possible a place in which to worship the Holy Trinity as well as honouring the Saints.

Posted by Peter Spence (# 14085) on :

FV my apologies for expressing myself unclearly. My reference to devotions to Mary should really have read something like 'to the near exclusion of devotions to Ss Joseph and John'. I've no interest in RCC bashing nor do I have any objections to the veneration of any Saint. Given the RCC's witness to the centrality of the Eucharist (often in extremely hostile circumstances in Ireland) in christian life I'm just a bit surprised that this aspect of the Knock apparition appears to be secondary to Mary both at an official and popular level.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Peter - your question should have been 'why Marian devotion ?' It is a big topic and I refer you to a book by Peter Mullen about Marian shrines throughout the world. He talks about a chance visit to the shrine of Candelaria in Tenerife.
'What was taking place at Candelaria was a celebration of the faith which had shaped their lives for centuries.This was religion from the heart filled not with doctrine and dogma but natural things and natural sounds. I discovered that here,before the start of the university term students make a pilgrimage here -it's a mixture of religious observance,ramble,Sunday school outing and the cheering fact that spirituality can be a combination of all these things.
A welcome was extended to everyone - to the devout and prayerful but also to casual visitors and passing tourists.The ritual was sincere and firmly based in theology but contained also elements of a fair and a picnic.
BUT these prayers and songs were not invented in Candelaria,they are the creation of the worldwide Catholic church,the embodiment of two thousand years of spiritual and cultural heritage.I felt a sense of belonging not just to a picturesque local celebration but to a shared experience of universal significance
A similar event,with local variations,might be witnessed at many other places throughout Europe and beyond.'
(Peter Mullen - Shrines of our Lady)
That is what many,but not all Catholics might feel at Knock.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

I think what Peter is asking is why the BVM is the only one mentioned in the name of the shrine, and the answer is, because she appeared bigger than the rest of them. The priest at the time (just before the vision) had also been saying endless masses for the release of souls from purgatory and claimed that he had been told who to pray for by the BVM who wanted certain souls released....or something.

Posted by Peter Spence (# 14085) on :

So size matters. FV thanks for your comment. The reason I'm not asking 'Why Marian devotion?' as you seem to want me to is I know quite a lot about it including the seeming uniqueness of Knock where, unlike other Marian shrines, Mary appeared with two other major saints and indeed Jesus as the Lamb of God on an altar but having written this I now realise the utter futility of asking any question here and indeed the utter futility of life itself; I'm going away now, I may be some time......

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Before you go, do remember that God loves you,that He has called you into being for a great purpose,to be a witness to His love in front of many others who may feel that life is futile.
Come back soon,refreshed and ready to do your bit to spread the love of God amongst your brothers and sisters.

Posted by Peter Spence (# 14085) on :

Thank you FV. To return the good wishes I have invoked the mighty intercession of St Onan for you.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

Er...riiight...

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

So,he's given you a good hand or a hard knock ?

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Peter Spence:
Thank you FV. To return the good wishes I have invoked the mighty intercession of St Onan for you.

A disguised personal attack is still a personal attack. Don't.

Gwai,
Purgatory Host

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