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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Attending a new parish, your counsel please
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Our parish was dissolved just before the summer. There are few Anglican churches to choose from, so we've gone to the one most of our former parish has gone to. I've tried to ignore and accept over the summer, but now we're into fall and it seems summer practice is the usual.
We found it to be okay with some noticeable things:
-the Collect for Purity is replaced by something else sort of along the same lines, but different, and varied each week.
-the altar is a surprising distance from the people, like 50 feet. There are probably about 90 or 100 people, and as usual no-one fills up the front 2 or 3 pews. I don't know if there are any canons or Good Ideas for how far apart priest/altar party should be physically spaced from people, but this seems like a lot. We can hear them via microphones just fine.
-the peace is a 5 or 7 min social time it seems -- we've discussed this before on the ship.
But the one that troubles me the most:
-after the service, there is a postlude of something cheerful, but not atypically with a sung solo. A little distracting from the post service prayer and contemplative time. But, the kicker is that there is clapping after it.
So my question is, am just a rigid old nitwit who isn't flexible enough to tolerate differences? Should a postlude be like a choir anthem? and what about the clapping?
Finally, do we say anything? I have always thought the idea of listening one's way into trouble is better than talking one's way in is worthy, so I've held my peace completely.
Please share your counsel and opinions.
[ 09. September 2013, 23:49: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Relax, let it wash over you. Everyone's different. And that includes parishes. I went from one parish that sang stodgy old hymns accompanied by a creaking organ (and organist) to one with an electronic piano, Taize hymns and overhead projection ( ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ) But God's still there. And so, apparently, are some of your church friends.
I confess, however, that if the altar was so far away that I would have to depend on microphones I would have turned on my heel the first day.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Familiarity's an odd thing. I've noticed people stick with something even when it's long ceased to be the best available option. How long does it take to happen? Does previous duration affect the uptake of a new pattern?
Given that the clone of your old parish doesn't exist, anywhere will be different ( and therefore 'wrong'). I'm not seeing a way forward other than by ceasing to compare. Analyse the core value of the activity 'churchgoing'. What is it for? What does it give you? If it turns out that its chief significant content was a set of comforting repetitions, then you may as well spend your Sundays at the beach/museum/mall instead. If there was other stuff, then where is that located in the new set-up?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Have you visited the other Anglican parishes on offer to see if any of them are likely to suit you more? Going where you are going that has lots of familiar faces may feel "safe" in some ways but it may not be the best option - have a look around and see what else is on offer. You owe it to yourself to check out the other possibilities.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
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Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I wonder if you should take a church holiday or sabbatical from the new parish probably for a couple of years. During it try and attend a congregation of a very different tradition.
Why?
You need to grieve the passing of your old congregation. Whatever you do while doing it will be tainted for not being your old congregation. So it is reasonable to go somewhere very different as you know it will not be the same.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
So my question is, am just a rigid old nitwit who isn't flexible enough to tolerate differences? Should a postlude be like a choir anthem? and what about the clapping?
Finally, do we say anything? I have always thought the idea of listening one's way into trouble is better than talking one's way in is worthy, so I've held my peace completely.
I've been part of the same church for around 12 years now, so take or leave my suggestions as you wish! But I wonder if your being new is a bit of an opportunity, in that you might be able to get away with asking questions that become more awkward once you've been part of things for some time.
So, on the clapping thing, you could ask about it in a casual sort of way when you're just chatting with the minister or someone else with influence. The clapping is something you're not used to and maybe you could simply say that, and gently ask how come things are done that way here. It might even prompt some useful reflection on the part of the minister etc. - after all, it's so easy to get into patterns of behaviour and practice, forgetting to stop and question why we do things the way we do!
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
... after the service, there is a postlude of something cheerful, but not atypically with a sung solo. A little distracting from the post service prayer and contemplative time. But, the kicker is that there is clapping after it ...
It seems a bit odd to have a sung postlude (but then I probably qualify as a "rigid old nitwit". ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ) Having said that, my Better Half (a cathedral organist) is getting used to the fact that he regularly gets a polite round of applause from the handful of people who have stayed to listen to the organ postlude, whether it be loud and joyful or quiet and contemplative.
I think he would rather they didn't, but the service is technically finished and he accepts that it's just their way of showing their appreciation. And it's usually started by the Dean, whose appreciation is always a Good Thing.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
If these are the only problems, then you are actually very fortunate. There isn't a church remotely like my own within 30 miles (at least) so it is often the norm to have to make huge, major adjustments when changing churches. Minor adjustments are always going to have to happen.
But you could always try other churches to see what their differences are - chances are you'll be so shocked, you will enjoy returning to the one which is only slightly different....
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Interesting and helpful responses. With reading them and some thought, my problem may distill down to 'not quite reverent enough', for which we have responsibility too. Done the holiday thing. It just postpones. Other denominations, there really aren't choices which also have a eucharistic liturgy. The other two Anglican churches we could try, I know a lot about already. One is extremely socially conservative and the other might become, if we attended, the third we experienced closure with (we lived through closure of another parish 22 years ago. That parish combined with the one that just closed and the two became one and kept going for those years).
I think I'd better try the patience and tolerance path, and try to judge not lest I be judged etc. I do find that not attending something is worse than attending, by far. I can get used a holiday from church after about 6 weeks, but then find myself doing a liturgy in my head, intrusive thoughts of it dammit anyway. Best have a real one it seems.
[ 10. September 2013, 16:48: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
... There isn't a church remotely like my own within 30 miles ...
Now that you put it like that, I realise that there isn't one remotely like mine within two time-zones ...
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
... There isn't a church remotely like my own within 30 miles ...
Now that you put it like that, I realise that there isn't one remotely like mine within two time-zones ...
Ahem.....
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
... There isn't a church remotely like my own within 30 miles ...
Now that you put it like that, I realise that there isn't one remotely like mine within two time-zones ...
I see you're in St John's. I went to the cathedral of St John the Baptist when there three summers ago after having tea in the crypt the day before. Had thought of trying St Thomas just because it looked unusual - never been to a garrison church whatever that is, and probably would have if been there another week. As it was, we went walking on the East Coast Trail.
[ 10. September 2013, 23:32: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
On the topic of clapping after the postlude: I've grown up in congregations that would never applaud during worship, e.g, not after a beautiful solo anthem or after a particularly good sermon. But in these congregations the postlude is not seen as a part of the liturgy, strictly speaking; people feel free to get up and leave, or to chat a bit, in a way they never would before the blessing and dismissal. Every congregation I've regularly been a part of has applauded after the postlude. My assumed rationale was that since it's not seen as a part of the liturgy proper, it's accepted.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
... there isn't one remotely like mine within two time-zones ...
Ahem.....
Sorry, maybe I should have been more specific about what I meant. We use the BCP for most services (in particular the two main Sunday services); and we do two fully choral services every Sunday, which I understand is done by only three other churches in Canada - one in Montreal and two in Toronto.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
On the topic of clapping after the postlude: I've grown up in congregations that would never applaud during worship, e.g, not after a beautiful solo anthem or after a particularly good sermon. But in these congregations the postlude is not seen as a part of the liturgy, strictly speaking; people feel free to get up and leave, or to chat a bit, in a way they never would before the blessing and dismissal. Every congregation I've regularly been a part of has applauded after the postlude. My assumed rationale was that since it's not seen as a part of the liturgy proper, it's accepted.
Except for the habit of praying post service. This may be a new topic, but what is the music at church for? Is it a form of prayer or something to please the senses of those gathered. At what point might church become entertainment (if that's not too strong a word)? and is this approach okay?
I'm more on then prayer side, and while not disallowing that people need to be drawn in and even entertained, that this is a steady practice is what has troubled me (and also makes me think I might be the problem versus the practice). Is something repeated week in, week out as part of a church service not liturgy?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
You should be grateful; my former parish had a rock mass at 0900 with amplifiers and acoustic* guitars. Applause at the end of every mass. I left.
*Or whatever the fuck they were - plugged into the amplifiers.
[ 12. September 2013, 13:58: Message edited by: PeteC ]
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
On the topic of clapping after the postlude: I've grown up in congregations that would never applaud during worship, ...
Except for the habit of praying post service. ...
While I value prayerful reflection and agree with all that has been said, may I ask a naughty question, i.e. Is This Really Very Important?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
We could have traded, Pete C. I'd love a service as you describe.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
On the topic of clapping after the postlude: I've grown up in congregations that would never applaud during worship, ...
Except for the habit of praying post service. ...
While I value prayerful reflection and agree with all that has been said, may I ask a naughty question, i.e. Is This Really Very Important?
Like I said, I know I'm the problem. Rigid old stringy turnip me. Got to get modern. Just like Pete C. does ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Like I said, I know I'm the problem. Rigid old stringy turnip me. Got to get modern. Just like Pete C. does
No, I'm not saying that at all - we all have our likes and dislikes. But surely there are Bigger Reasons for deciding whether a particular church is for us, or not?
There are things in my church I don't like ... and I'm the Minister!
[ 12. September 2013, 15:04: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
That's true. This is just one. I'm getting used to the liturgical adaptations that are part of it. I'm adapting to artificially amplified voices. I do not like the sharing of the peace to be a conversation time and the clapping is also jarring. I'm off to the first Saturday morning "men's breakfast" tomorrow. I will try to refrain from expressing excessive opinion if the topic comes up or if asked. -- this is one reason a more or less anonymous forum is helpful. Can express things that mightn't be quite the thing in other places.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Wet Kipper
Circus Runaway
# 1654
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Posted
could you perform a "mystery Worship" and let them find out about what jars with you that way ?
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Posts: 9841 | From: further up the Hill | Registered: Nov 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I believe that if it's where God wants you to worship and serve, you'll start to feel blessed there despite the irritations, and they'll diminish in importance. If that doesn't happen, perhaps God is trying to lead you somewhere else. Please keep as open a mind as possible as to where that might be if that's the case. I wouldn't have chosen my current church for myself.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
You know, for us Orthodoxen, there often isn't another parish within a hundred miles or more. So you go to the one that you can get to. And while the Divine Liturgy is the Divine Liturgy wherever you are, and the Eucharist is the Eucharist, there can be a lot to get used to. In some parishes, the congregation sings; in some, only the cantor sings. Some have pews, some don't. Some have organs, most don't. Some do their services mostly or entirely in English, some do the services mostly or entirely in Greek or Slavonic, some use a mix of languages. Sometimes the homily is after the Gospel, sometimes it's at the very end.
We have an expression that helps with these kinds of transitions: "Don't bring your typicon to my monastery." The typicon, of course, is the set of rules and practices by which a monastery structures its communal life. If you go to a new monastery, you don't get to bring your old typicon with you. You have to use theirs.
Since a great deal of the aim of a Christian way of life is to learn to cut off your own desires and not to insist on your own way, going to a parish where things aren't done the way you like them can be a podvig, an ascetic labor that you embrace as part of your path to salvation.
It's not easy. But it may be helpful.
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
I don't know about no prophet but I certainly found that helpful Josephine. 'Don't bring your typicon to my monastery' is a concept I think I will find useful in all sorts of situations, not just church.
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I believe that if it's where God wants you to worship and serve, you'll start to feel blessed there despite the irritations, and they'll diminish in importance. If that doesn't happen, perhaps God is trying to lead you somewhere else. Please keep as open a mind as possible as to where that might be if that's the case. I wouldn't have chosen my current church for myself.
I'm not sure what feeling blessed is. How would I know that? I'm also not sure how God would inform me of being led somewhere. I am probably too spiritually undeveloped to understand(?)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I'm not sure what feeling blessed is. How would I know that? I'm also not sure how God would inform me of being led somewhere. I am probably too spiritually undeveloped to understand(?)
It's perhaps the language I use which is unhelpful no prophet. It's how I try to express my own spirituality and relationship with God, but we're all different. If you feel a deep joy or a sense of peace during the service, or a sense of the presence of God, for instance, I would see it as a blessing. If you feel prompted, or have a persistent niggling or impulse to try a certain church, for instance, I would think that God may be leading you there.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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frin
Drinking coffee for Jesus
# 9
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Posted
I've been part of two churches that closed, np, and my advice would be to actively not try to settle anywhere for a while - maybe a year or two. It takes time to grieve for the church that you were part of, and that interrupts belonging in the new church.
I recognise what Raptor Eye is describing about 'feeling called' to belong to a particular church. That has happened to me twice in the past, and one of those was - on the surface - a deeply unlikely fit between me and the church where I felt it. Looking back, my clear sense (which came out of nowhere) that God was prompting me to settle in this particular church was correct. There was something I needed to do there, learn there, and be part of. However, I've also moved towns in the past and failed to get that sense at any of the available churches. And in that circumstance, just going somewhere and worshipping week in week out is a good thing, if not as satisfying as getting a strong sense that God says 'stay here'.
'frin
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"Even the crocodile looks after her young" - Lamentations 4, remembering Erin.
Posts: 4496 | From: a library | Registered: Apr 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
And sometimes you can find yourself stubbornly turning up, week in, week out, without appearing to make much progress for several years - and then, eventually, looking back and realising that this is where you were meant to be all along. Which you would have missed out on, if you had given up too soon. (I speak from experience here, as you can probably guess....)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I had a great conversation with another parishioner as I locked up my bike before the service yesterday (another quibble, this is not an hour ride versus 15 mins, but probably good for me.) I had never really talked to him at all before, though we've attended the same former parish for probably 15 years. We ended up talking about our children and families and then discussed the service and difficulties adjusting. It was good to hear others with struggles too.
About the blessing thing and the feelings etc. I am probably more along the lines of feeling compelled. Like "okay dammit, I'm going already, quit bugging me". So it's less like a blessing and more like being bullied. But then that is in the context of a fairly distressing series of bad life incidents, mostly involving deaths, harm and sorrow.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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