quote:

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Originally posted by hanginginthere:
Hello, I am shortly visiting Rome for the first time and am wondering if shipmates have any suggestions for must-sees. I can only take Baroque architecture in small doses so not too may grand churches please!

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San Clemente? Not too big, not baroque. Twelfth century on top of fourth century with the remains of a Mithraeum underneath that.
 

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Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
The Raphael Rooms in the Vatican. If you can't take the Sistine Chapel, this is the place to go. You can always do both, but not the same day.

The Borghese Gallery in the Borghese Gardens. More Raphael, then Titian, Caravaggio and Rubens. The outstanding Apollo and Daphne by Bernini - baroque, but the technique defies description. On to Canova's Pauline Bonaparte, a classic nude. Lots more besides.

Finding a pleasant cafe in a quiet square, and watching the passing crowd. Avoid places like the Via Veneto, Spanish Steps, Trevi Fountain at all costs.
 

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Posted by Cara (# 16966) on :
 
Ha! San Clemente was exactly what I was going to say before I saw it was said! Wonderful cross-section of centuries of history. My book about it isn't handy, but wasn't there also a first-century house on the lowest level?...or maybe the Mithraeum was a room in that house...anyway San Clem is a must-see.

Plus it's not far from the Coliseum, which I think also needs to be seen.

Also Trastevere area. And Piazza Navona (once a "circus" for chariot races). And Trajan's forum (once a shopping centre).
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Roman baroque is generally (generally) more restrained than the stuff you get in, say, Germany or Spain, so you might find your tolerance levels are slightly higher, hanginginthere. Also, some of the Roman basilicas are really only baroque cladding over something much older, so you can sort of see through the baroque to the classical.

One of my favourite churches is S.Maria Maggiore. It's light, spacious, and the proportions of the interior are just perfect. And, if you believe the legends about relics, they've got the manger in the crypt.

But I'd second the recommendation of Piazza Navona - on a good day, one of the pleasantest places anywhere to spend a couple of hours watching the world go by.

(Edited because the word is "levels", not "elevls".)

[ 18. September 2013, 11:21: Message edited by: Adeodatus ]
 

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Posted by cheesymarzipan (# 9442) on :
 
If you like ceilings, go to the Pantheon (aka Santa Maria della Rotonda) and lie on the floor.
And people say concrete's not beautiful.

Isn't there an arch you can climb up and look at the view too?
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
I'll second the Galleria Borghese. Not that Rome doesn't have other brilliant small to medium art galleries, but the Galleria Borghese is probably the best.
The Sistine Chapel - on the one hand, it's a nightmare: it's completely packed with (other) tourists. On the other hand, it's the Sistine Chapel. Obviously you can't see everything worth seeing at the Vatican Museums in a day. I'm not sure you can see everything worth seeing in them in a lifetime. You can see the Sistine Chapel and the Raphael rooms; in fact when I went the main tourist trail took you through the one to get to the other and I didn't see any way to take a short cut. (And why would you?)

[ 18. September 2013, 13:08: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
 

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Posted by hanginginthere (# 17541) on :
 
This is brilliant - just the sort of suggestions I was hoping for. San Clemente has definitely gone to the top of my list, but I am making a note of everything. Keep the ideas coming! Any thoughts on good (inexpensive) places to eat also very welcome.
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
Santa Maria Sopra Minerva, across the plaza from the Pantheon, is a Gothic respite from all else that is Rome. Great ceiling, pleasantly calm and dark after all that noise and light, and they've got Fra Angelico behind the altar on the left!

As for cheap food, um...well, there's The Bridge across the street from the Vatican Museums line. Great gelato for cheap, and lots of it—and since you're in Lazio, you can get it con panna, because you really do need whipped cream on your two giant scoops of ice cream.
 

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Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
How much time do you have?

If you're going to the Spanish Steps (which you should), pop into Trinita dei Monti at the top. Staffed by a French religious community, I think they have some of the most beautiful music in Rome. Also, have a macchiato at the bottom.

Vatican museums, obviously. Also, try to see if you can get tickets for a Papal audience. Regardless of whether you're Catholic or not, it's an amazing experience.

There are so many beautiful churches in Rome, but Il Gesu and Santa Croce in Gerusaleme are two of my favorites. In the latter, pick up a bottle of the liquor, Crocino, that the monks make.

Of course, the colosseum and the forum are must-sees too.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
After some discussion backstage, we've decided this thread is more All Saintsy than Heavenly, so fasten your seatbelts and Romanes are eunt novus domus (Romans are going to a new home).

Ariel
Heaven Host
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
If you visit the Vatican Museum go very early and queue up well before it opens. If you get there just at the opening time the queue will be 3 miles long! (Luckily we were told this before we went!)

Get taxis - they are cheap and reliable and the underground system is sparse (Due to all those Roman ruins the keep finding!)


 

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Posted by hanginginthere (# 17541) on :
 
@ Hart - we have 5 full days (6 nights) so will only be scraping the surface, so advice from old Rome hands is invaluable.
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
The Baths of Caracalla.
The catacombs of San Callisto.
The church of Santa Maria in Cosmedin.
Villa Borghese and its park: great view over to the Vatican.
The food!

Buses are more useful than the Metro but beware of pickpockets.

If you are an Anglican (or just an English-speaking Christian) you might like to sample All Saints (C of E) or St Paul's within the Walls (TEC). Both by the same architect (G E Street) but very different.
 

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Posted by Masha (# 10098) on :
 
San Stefano Rotundo is lovely, as is Santa Prassede.

I think they were my favourites. San Stefano had nobody else in it at the height of summer and it's great. Santa Prassede has amazing colourful mosaics. Well worth seeking out.

Also, if you're fit go right to the top of St Peter's. The view is worth the steps.

Also, look at events on at the museums. I had a great night being shown around Mercato e Foro di Traiano. After a tour looking at the place by night we all ( lots of us from countries all over the world) sat round on benches sampling food from Roman recipes. It was brilliant.

Also, also: look round the Roman Forum. It's fantastic. Tere are some painting still on walls and all sorts of brilliant things to see.

Had an amazing meal in a beautiful restaurant that I'm happy to recommend but I don't know if it counts as advertising so pm me!

Can you tell I love the place?!
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
I think it helps to know what you're looking for. I was interested in art, mostly paintings but also statues. So I went to several churches for the paintings rather than for the architecture. On the other hand, we didn't go into the Forum or Colosseum. (It was very hot when we went and we preferred to be indoors.)
 

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Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on :
 
There's been a lot of enthusiasm for catholic Rome here, so let me stick in a word for classical Rome. I love the Palatine hill, the Capitoline museum, the forum and arch of Trajan, the baths of Caracalla which Angloid recommended. They tend to be a bit quieter in my experience too. You can call me a philistine but St Peter's does nothing for me, though Bernini's colonnade in the square is stunning. The church I liked was Santa Maria Trastevere.
 

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Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
After some discussion backstage, we've decided this thread is more All Saintsy than Heavenly, so fasten your seatbelts and Romanes are eunt novus domus (Romans are going to a new home).

Ariel
Heaven Host

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Ouch!!! Romani in nouum domum eunt (or even better transeunt), if you please!

Hosts may be above reproach, but your attempt at Latin most certainly is not ...

[ 18. September 2013, 20:52: Message edited by: Metapelagius ]
 

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Posted by Chesterbelloc (# 3128) on :
 
Not long back from my third trip in four years - we'll be going back pretty regularly for the rest of our lives, we hope. That's how much we love it. But then, we're papes.

My don't miss recommendations are the Campo de' Fiori (real Roman fruit & veg market with excellent eateries around), the Piazza Navona (one of the nicest squares anywhere in the world), nearby S. Ivo's (understated Borromini masterpiece - but almost never open...), and a climb up and along the Gianicolo/Janiculum hill ending with a trip to S. Maria in Trastevere.

That do for starters? The great thing about Rome is that there is not just one, concentrated "historic centre" - "old" Rome just goes on and on and it's pretty much all "real". I bet you'll love it.
 

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Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :
 
It costs a fortune (about £90 each, I believe) but if you can possibly afford it, book an after-hours small-group tour of the Sistine Chapel. There is no comparison to the experience of the awful crowds earlier in the day. Make it a once-in-a-lifetime experience!

Take a walk through the streets at night - the Piazza Navona and the Trevi Fountain are particularly beautiful then.

Perhaps my favourite place in all Rome is St-Paul's-Outside-The-Walls Basilica. It is more modern than the others - rebuilt in the mid-19th century after a fire burned the old one - and it is stunning. I love the sense of space, the alabaster windows, and the amazing malachite altars.

And I second Moonlitdoor's recommendation of the Palatine Hill - it really is lovely, and kind of lifts you up and out of the crowds. You can get a combined ticket for that, the Colosseum, and the Forum, and spend a happy morning exploring.

Last time I was there, I missed the Pantheon and the Capuchin Cemetery, where the Crypt is decorated with skulls! I intend going back to see both.
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
The church I liked was Santa Maria Trastevere.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
The great thing about Rome is that there is not just one, concentrated "historic centre" - "old" Rome just goes on and on and it's pretty much all "real". I bet you'll love it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Metapelagius:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
After some discussion backstage, we've decided this thread is more All Saintsy than Heavenly, so fasten your seatbelts and Romanes are eunt novus domus (Romans are going to a new home).

Ariel
Heaven Host

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Ouch!!! Romani in nouum domum eunt (or even better transeunt), if you please!

Hosts may be above reproach, but your attempt at Latin most certainly is not ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by hanginginthere:
Thanks Dafyd, good advice. I learned the hard way in Paris many years ago; also the need for really comfortable shoes!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
... I'm not sure about the rules for women, but I'd expect it would involve covering upper arms ...

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Yes - we were there in September too, and I remember having to borrow one of the teachers' jackets before they'd let me in to Milan Cathedral as I was wearing a strappy dress.
 

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Posted by Yangtze (# 4965) on :
 
I loved the Vatican modern art collection, which is in a few rooms as a sort of detour on the way to the Sistine Chapel iirc. Apparently popes get given a lot of art and some of it is really rather good.

And as most people are just hi-tailing it to get to the famous stuff the rooms had the benefit of being relatively quiet as well.
 

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Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
For me the most wonderful place in Rome is the church of Santa Maria in Aracoeli,built on the Capitoline Hill.
It contains the tomb of St Helen, the mother of Constantine and also used to have a 'miracle working' statue of the Bambino Gesu,before whom
Roman children recited poems in Advent.

You have to go in by a side door from the Capitoline Hill then come out by the front door for one of the most stunning views of Rome.

On the other hand if you climb the steps in front of the church (on your knees)you are said to have a good chance of winning the lottery.

Perhaps this is because the church is built on the temple of Juno Admonitrix and right beside where the Romans made coins.Admonitrix is the origin of the English words 'mint' and indeed 'money'.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
I found the Sistine Chapel quite disappointing. There were guards there loudly saying 'SHHHHshhhhhhh' every few seconds and a tannoy saying how holy the place is and to be silent.

Suitable music and notices would have been far more effective - as it was all the loud 'be quiet' noise was very irritating!



 

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Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

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Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
The church I liked was Santa Maria Trastevere.

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Which is the base of the Sant'Egidio community (lay people who are engaged in various kinds of social work and meet for worship daily: very Taizé influenced, or if not influenced, sharing much of a similar ethos). They run (or did, a few years ago) a restaurant nearby called Trattoria degli Amici (of the friends) of which a large number of the staff have learning difficulties. Slightly chaotic service but excellent food.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jack the Lass:
What's the name of that spectacularly ugly wedding cake edifice? It's not somewhere I'd linger, but I was glad I'd seen it so I could verify it was indeed as ugly and wedding cakey as the reviews had said.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
There were guards there loudly saying 'SHHHHshhhhhhh' every few seconds and a tannoy saying how holy the place is and to be silent.

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quote:

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Originally posted by piglet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
... I'm not sure about the rules for women, but I'd expect it would involve covering upper arms ...

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Yes - we were there in September too, and I remember having to borrow one of the teachers' jackets before they'd let me in to Milan Cathedral as I was wearing a strappy dress.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Trisagion:
Are you not confusing the Church of San' Egidio in Trastevere with Santa Maria? It's about three years since I was in Trastevere but San Egidio community were still in their eponymous home then.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gee D:
For something quite different, try Ss Cosmo and Damian in the Vespasian Forum from memory. Tiny but attractive. The church is built on a much older building. Not sure if either or both of the Saints has been struck off in recent years.

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quote:

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tomb: You'll need to apply to the Vatican to get tickets, but I highly recommend a tour of the Scavi under St. Peter's basilica.

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Seconded. By luck, I went with a friend who had a friend who had a friend in the Vatican... Very recommendable.
 

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Posted by Huntress (# 2595) on :
 
I returned from Rome a couple of weeks ago after spending 12 days there on something of a budget with my better half. We stayed in Monti, on Via dei Serpenti, so looked at quite a bit of stuff around there, but did venture further afield thanks to a bus pass. Yes, much is walkable in the old centre and longer on-foot journeys can have cafe / gelato stops worked into them but I had injured my foot somehow whilst 'doing' the Forum and Palatine Hill.

Here are some recommendations, some of which overlap with the excellent suggestions already made.

Churches and Museums:
San Clemente, recommended repeatedly earlier in the thread. Yes it is excellent, also a nice cool way of spending time underground if the weather is hot. Tickets are 5 euro each full price to go down to the underground basilica and (further underground) Mithraic temple. The above-ground church (with beautiful frescoes by Masolino of St Catherine) is free.

Santa Maria della Concezione and Capuchin Museum with Crypts. The Church was closed for refurbishment a couple of weeks ago. The museum was open. 6 euros for a ticket full price. Very interesting museum about the Capuchins with the Crypts at the end and then a shop selling (rather pricey) souvenirs. It is stated in the museum, however, that proceeds from tickets etc. go to the Capuchin's charitable projects.

Santa Maria in Ara Coeli. On the same hill as the Piazza del Campidoglio, up a frightening number of steps, but Oh! the view from the top! The church is very decorated and contains the tomb of St Helen.

The Museum of Crime, on Via del Gonfalone. 2 euros entrance. Very good value for 2 hours worth of exhibits related to crime and punishment in Rome over the last few centuries. Some rather grim exhibits. Quite a lot of the information is in English.

If you go to St Peter's there will be a lot of people on the surrounding streets trying to sell you stuff and some strongly implying that you need a ticket (bought from them) to enter the basilica. You don't need a ticket. I think they are trying to sell tours and misleading people. I didn't enjoy my visit to St Peter's so much - until 6pm came and it started quietening down.

Domus Romane, in Palazzo Valentini. Booking online is necessary for this one, we booked an English tour. With booking fees it came to 13 euro but it was worth it. DM is an excavated Roman villa in the basement of a Renaissance palace. They have placed strong glass a few feet above the surving floors and walls so you are walking above the rooms, with projected images and animations recreating the original building around you. Also good as an underground out-of-the-sun activity. The tour took just over an hour and a half.

The combined Colosseum / Forum / Palatine Hill ticket, at 12 euros, is very good value for all that can be seen and you have (need) two days to use the ticket. Regardless of which attraction you want to see first, buy the ticket from the Palatine Hill entrance and the queue will be shorter - DON'T queue at the Colosseum.

I think I went in 36 churches during our holiday. Many were on the basis of 'oh there's an open church door' and it's great to see what can be discovered within, if you're interested in art; saints bodies; etc. or just want to get inside for a while.

Churches of different denominations do services in English, if you want one. We went to Mass at San Silvestro in Capite on a Sunday evening and discovered that the Church houses the (reputed) head of St John the Baptist. On our last Sunday we went to Mass at Santa Maria Maggiore (in Italian) and managed well enough to know what was going on. It was quite nice to look at the mosaics from a comfortable seat - unavailable during the week when the nave is cleared of seating.

Practical bits and bobs:

Standing up at the bar (banco) in a cafe will almsot always be cheaper than sitting at a table (tavolo) to drink your coffee / eat your pastry.
Tazza d'oro, near the Pantheon, has some benches which can be perched on at no extra cost and is exellent for coffee and also for granita con panna (shaved coffee ice with cream). Their toilet is quite nice too.

There are water fountains all over Rome and the water is perfectly drinkable, very cold and tastes very nice. Just keep a water bottle with you and fill it at one of these fountains and save money. I believe there is an App available to locate them.

The buses are quite good but can get very very crowded. Tickets can be bought on some - not all - buses, from a machine, but are best bought in advance from tobacconists.

Places that sell pizza by the slice or cut (taglio) and weight are good for a cheap snack or lunch, especially when you can specify with your hands, if necessary, the size of piece you want.

Aperitivo 'hour' (often two or three) was how we had a few evening meals. Many places will charge 8-10 euros for a glass of wine and plate of food or an open buffet. I heartily recommend Josephine Bistrot on via Leonida Bissolati for this. Their food was diverse and excellent.

Gelato: I think the best we had was at Fatamorgana - one of whose branches was a few minutes' walk away from our apartment and at Gelateria del Teatro, on via dei Coronari, a few minutes' walk from Piazza Navona. There are various websites advising how to avoid low-quality gelato, tips which were reinforced by local residents during our stay.

I found the website Revealed Rome very useful, it supplied various recommendations and tips, some of which were followed up on and are repeated above
 

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Posted by Huntress (# 2595) on :
 
For clarification: the water fountains you can drink from are the small hydrant-type 'fontanelle' or 'nasoni' NOT the decorative fountains like Trevi etc. I have no knowledge about the water quality of those.

See here for information
 

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Posted by hanginginthere (# 17541) on :
 
Thanks, Huntress, for your long list of suggestions. So many people have responded to my plea that I am going to have to do some serious pruning of the list I am compiling. But it's brilliant to have personal recommendations - much better than just looking through a guide book.
 

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Posted by hanginginthere (# 17541) on :
 
Leaving for Rome tomorrow evening! I will try to pack in as many of the recommendations on this thread as possible ...
 

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Posted by FCB (# 1495) on :
 
A last minute suggestion: if you're going to St. Peter's, go early in the morning when, in my experience, it is almost empty except for priests and pilgrims celebrating Masses at the various side altars. Believe it or not, it's actually quite peaceful.
 

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Posted by Chesterbelloc (# 3128) on :
 
Another thought just occured to me: when buying transport tickets of any kind DO NOT FORGET TO VALIDATE THEM in the machines provided before you use them! There's an on-the-spot fine if you don't, but almost no-one official tells you this until it's too late. Although the fine is small (around €40) it's really not worth the hassle if caught. Also on the transport front, if travelling to Ciampino airport from Termini (central railway station) by the Terravision buses, go really, really early - hours before your flight - because the queues for them can be hours long. If travelling to Fiumicino (Da Vinci) airport, only the expensive Leonardo Express train goes from Termini - the cheper one only goes from Ostiense. Finally, if using the (very good) left luggage facilities at Termini, be prepared for quite long queue there too (up to an hour, I find).

Also, what the Huntress said about the fountains. Ignore what the Romans themselves say about the delicious, free and ubiquitous water giving you bladder-stones - it's probably a rumour spread by bottled-water companies.

My wife adds: always get a restaurant table before 1.30pm to be sure of getting one at all in anywhere decent for lunch (around which meal we always plan each Roman day); and remember that most churches are shut for most of the afternoon, only opening again in the evening.

[ 07. October 2013, 21:47: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
 

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Posted by Emendator Liturgia (# 17245) on :
 
Huntress, where did you stay? Was it the Antica Residenza Monti?
 

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Posted by hanginginthere (# 17541) on :
 
Well, I'm back, and feeling distinctly punch-drunk from all that walking and sightseeing. Main impressions? Nothing prepared me for the sheer scale of everything! I have in my time proofread many art history books and seen innumerable photos of e.g. the Pantheon, but I could not believe the overwhelming size of everything. And the way ancient walls, columns etc are round every corner - things that would be a major tourist attraction anywhere else are just there, unregarded and unlabled in the streets. We used the Porta Maggiore tram interchange every day, and the Porta is a vast gate that dates from 52 AD, but no one takes any notice of it and we certainly wouldn't have known it was there if we hadn't been staying on that side of town.

A big disappointment was not being able to get into St Peter's - entry was barred because of some big event. We saw lots of churches, of course, and, as I said in my OP, I am not a fan of the baroque, so many of them did not really appeal (the Gesu is so totally over the top that it made my head spin!). My favourite was S. Maria in Trastevere with its lovely Byzantine-style mosaics, and I also liked the little S. Maria in Loreto, near Trajan's Column. San Clemente was fascinating - thanks to all of you who suggested it, as I wouldn't have known about it otherwise. And thanks for the tip about the water fountains, which we took full advantage of!

Mr h and I have come back with a long list for 'next time', and yes, there will definitely be a next time!
 

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