Ship of Fools: What do you do when you begin to lose God?

Thread: What do you do when you begin to lose God? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by chive (# 208) on :

Over the past few months I have found my relationship with God has shrivelled away to the point of almost agnosticism. I still believe intellectually but the emotional response that used to be there has all but disappeared. I know that emotions are not always to be trusted but they are a big factor in any relationship, not just with God.

I also know that there can be ebbs and flows in any relationship and this isn't totally surprising but I'm at the point where I find mass a chore and can come up with lots of pseudo-reasons not to go which is very different to the three or four times a week I used to attend.

I don't want to lose God - He's what its all about so what do you suggest I, or someone in a similar position, should do?

Posted by computergeek (# 17826) on :

quote:
Originally posted by chive:
Over the past few months I have found my relationship with God has shrivelled away to the point of almost agnosticism. I still believe intellectually but the emotional response that used to be there has all but disappeared. I know that emotions are not always to be trusted but they are a big factor in any relationship, not just with God.

I also know that there can be ebbs and flows in any relationship and this isn't totally surprising but I'm at the point where I find mass a chore and can come up with lots of pseudo-reasons not to go which is very different to the three or four times a week I used to attend.

I don't want to lose God - He's what its all about so what do you suggest I, or someone in a similar position, should do?

I suggest prayer.

And read the Bible, starting with John's Gospel.

Ask others to pray for you, people you know WILL pray.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Right. This might be odd coming from me, but I do dislike shifts in belief structure unless thought through. Guess I want everything neat and tidy. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

Examine your belief structure. If emotion is its foundation, perhaps there was a less strong tie to begin.
If, however, the foundation remains after the emotion fades, it could be a maturation. It is natural to feel a lessening of overt affection when the paint fades. But this should not lead to condemning the building.
Oh, bother, bad analogy.
Try this. There are friends who, for various reasons, that I will avoid for a brief period because I do not "feel" like being with them. But I am in no means willing or wanting to sever the friendship.
IMO, emotional peaks are to highly assessed. It is the still place beneath the rough water where the strength lies, not in the peaks. And this is coming from an extremely emotional person.

[ 18. September 2013, 16:35: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by chive:
I also know that there can be ebbs and flows in any relationship and this isn't totally surprising but I'm at the point where I find mass a chore and can come up with lots of pseudo-reasons not to go which is very different to the three or four times a week I used to attend.

Mass is not the only place where you can encounter God, and it's perfectly all right to look for him elsewhere, and in different ways. There are quite a lot of different ways - it depends on the individual. You may find that Lectio Divina helps you to focus, quietly, by yourself. Perhaps the Sacred Space daily readings may work for you.

Or you may find that words and a clear, procedural, "formulaic" approach to finding God don't currently work for you. That's also perfectly all right, and a natural part of the spiritual journey for some people. if that's so, then don't force it. Find time to be silent, some "quiet" time without preconceptions or expectations, just to "be" and feel and think. It may well be an arid time for you but as you say, there are ebbs and flows and sometimes the ebb can be long, dry and very disconcerting.

Sitting in an empty church where there isn't a service going on, just thinking and soaking up the atmosphere, can be helpful sometimes. So can getting out into the natural world - for some people there is more of a sense of wonder, joy and the sense of something greater to be gained from nature than within walls. It doesn't work for everyone but it doesn't hurt.

You'll find it comes back one of these days. As often as not, in a way you don't expect at a time you don't expect. Periods of aridity are part of the journey. But God doesn't work to a timetable, nor is he confined to expressing himself to you in one way only (through the medium of the Mass). The fact that you still want to keep in touch says a lot.

Good luck. [Votive]

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

I found myself much relieved by hearing a few tremendous sermons about the function of wilderness experiences in our life and in Jesus'. One of the primary ideas was that we as moderns really avoid the borders between faith and doubt, between God and human, we things to be all one or all the other, and the wilderness can be the best place to find the uncomfortable border places. That was what I needed to keep trying even when I felt alone, and it did come back. I don't feel alone anymore. [Votive]

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I think it is helpful if you can identify exactly what it is you are losing faith in. Is it the religious structure of Mass? Is it the sense of "relationship" with God?

Identifying what is the problem is, I think, an important step towards finding a solution. For me, the problem was church, so I left, and then I have to find other ways to fulfill some of those needs. But it was a good move for me.

Finding those things which are a problem, when they should be a help, and dropping them can be a real positive.

Posted by chive (# 208) on :

It's definitely the relationship thing. Mass is as it is. I love benediction. The building sucks and the people are people in all their goodnesses and irritation. But without the relationship thing it just seems a bit hollow. I intend to persevere because I believe grace is contained in the sacraments irrespective of the state of my head. I just wish I could regain that feeling of the connectedness with God.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by chive:
I don't want to lose God - He's what its all about so what do you suggest I, or someone in a similar position, should do?

My only suggestion (other than the prayer thing) is to cut back to 1 mass a week, and hang in there. My religion is largely a matter of what I believe and do, rather than what I feel (frankly Orthodoxy helps here, because there's a lot of "do" to do). It's served me pretty well for 30+ years. God bless your journey.

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

It may sound trite, but I, too, came to Catholicism as a (young) adult. I've never regretted that. Ever.

This is not to say that there have not been arid periods in my relationship with God. Indeed, there was a very long period (eight years [Hot and Hormonal]

) when I went to church only when it was necessary for me to do so - weddings and funerals, for example. But I saw God all around me. I often spent weekends camping or volunteering in the community. But not church. Until I woke up one Sunday and went to church.

Now, when I have my small periods of agnosticism I will sometimes take a few weeks off. Or I continue to go to church and pray: Lord, I believe. Help thou my unbelief.

But it happens. To all of us. Consider it a bump in the road. Continue the parts you love and enjoy. There will come a time when you will return. And learn that you might leave God, He never leaves you.

[Votive]

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

When I was in that situation (I still am a bit) I came across a sermon by Rowan Williams - in Open to Judgement - about dark periods. Basically because in this life we only ever know God through created experience we run the risk, if we stagnate in our faith, of identifying God with the particular created experiences through which we know him. On the other hand, it's normal if we're growing in faith to find that the occasions through which we used to find God no longer seem to point to him. We know God through God's absence - when occasions start to point away from themselves. When that doesn't happen you get people who identify God with the King James Bible, or with a particular liturgy, or so on - often as a way of clinging tightly to the past in an attempt to squeeze the life back into it.
Not sure what that's worth, but I think that helped me.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

David Torkington made the same point in his wonderful trilogy, "The Hermit", "The Mystic" and "The Prophet". YMMV but these three books helped me a lot.

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :

A friend of mine whilst going through a similar period (whilst being ordained) was advised by the Principle at theological college just to carry on with her daily life and routine and not to worry about it, to be patient. She did, and everything came back for her. It might not have done I suppose.

I've not read Torkington's trilogy (but may now investigate it!) but would certainly recommend reading any author who deals with this sort of experience in an honest and non-preachy way. Frederick Buechner would be my own recommendation.

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

Another encouragement here - my old faith died, I was alone for quite a while, I found (God created in me?) something different, stronger and better. The alone-ness was a key part of what came after.

I ended up trudging down a path '...OK, so this is all a great big societal bullshit accretion...what else falls apart?...'. It all got pretty bleak, but with hindsight to be saved I needed to know what I was being saved from.

[Votive]

Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :

There are a few things you could try.

1. Try atheism. See if you can reconcile your intellect to this idea.

2. Try a different denomination. To stop myself getting in a rut I occasionally go to a methodist or an anglican church, where you tend to get a different perspective.

3. A retreat. Some specialist christian centres and monasteries will take in people over a weekend or a week, where you can find the space you need to think things through without too many distractions.

4. (Very tentative) I've heard good things about Francis Spufford's 'Unapologetic' which sets out an emotional case for christianity. I have not read it myself, so cannot say if it any good.

Posted by vascopyjama (# 1953) on :

Hi Chive

I find praying the labyrinth helpful. Physically walking it. The ebb and flow and thinking ahh I've got there only to find I am back at an edge...

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :

Spufford's book is...OK. It's pretty angry and shouty and ends up being apologetics in a roundabout way.

Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :

All relationships have their ups and downs. For me, when I feel that I have lost my hold on God, I remember that God still has a hold on me.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

Shipmates helped me very much when I asked a similar (not the same, but similar) question a few years ago:

Here.

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
... Try a different denomination ...

I was thinking along similar lines and would add my own tuppence-worth.

If you like good church music and you're within hailing distance of a cathedral (or an Oxbridge college with a choir), there are few better arguments for the existence of God than a well-executed Choral Evensong.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Chive

I read Adeodatus' thread, in particular I read your reply on it.

Perhaps it is time to put faith in the God who has never let you walk away and stop trying to be close. Let God come and find you. God has done it in the past, God can do it in the future as well.

Jengie

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

So, if you have lost/are losing a feeling of a relationship to God, what have you done in the past that makes this relationship happen/special. They might not help, but they might indicate ways in which you could find this again.

As others have said, relationships do have ups and downs. That does not make the downs any easier, but it can help to realise that this is not a disaster, but just part of a relationship process.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

Goodly advice from people who are more developed spiritually than I understand.

I have found, particularly over the past 6 years, when crisis after crisis hit my family and me (deaths, crime, illness), that I had to consider three main things.

1. God was who god was, and I had constructed and reconstructed God in my thoughts, prayers and via what others had told me. A good deal of it was nonsense.

2. Doing is very important. You 'do' mass, you 'do' prayers, not because you believe something, but because it might bring you to belief. Like Mousethief said. I have had to repeat some formulaic prayers only because I knew them by heart and the poetry of the words pleased me to a degree. For nearly 3 years.

3. It is okay to approach God through things that give you pleasure, joy and happiness. I swear that if not for tea, I would not believe, as trite as that may sound.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

It may be that 3 or 4 times a week was just a bit too much of a good thing, and you got stale on it. Simple repetitiveness will eventually get to one.

So try some of the suggestions above or look for what's available near you. Maybe become more involved in a related activity that involves dealing with some of God's people (which is actually all of us anyway) in ways that feed you spiritually.

Becoming much more involved in finding out "who my neighbours are" and how to relate to them has helped me a great deal.

Posted by Beautiful Dreamer (# 10880) on :

I've been where you are several times-*this close* to walking away, trying to hold on but being pulled back in. Jesus never let go of me, and He won't let go of you either.

Is there an activity-studying in a way you don't normally, looking at the blogs of other Christians you know, reading a part of the Bible you haven't read in a while etc-that is 'different' from your usual routine that you can take part in? I find that sometimes 'shaking things up' does a great deal of good.

If you can find a good podcast or online radio service to listen to on occasion, that may help too. TuneIn Radio is an awesome app that can help you find...well, pretty much anything. I personally love InTouch by Charles Stanley, but there are plenty of others out there.

Good luck and I'm praying for you. [Votive]

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :

Giving yourself permission that this time is ok and not a problem, just the way things are today.

When we get all worried about these things it can get into a downward anxiety circle.

Saying that it is okay, not great maybe, but for now okay may help avoid that extra burden.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:

4. (Very tentative) I've heard good things about Francis Spufford's 'Unapologetic' which sets out an emotional case for christianity. I have not read it myself, so cannot say if it any good.

I thought it was excellent. Pace iamchristianhearmeroar, I didn't find it angry, though if you don't expect Christians to use four-letter words you might be slightly shocked. More positive and less sad than former Bishop of Edinburgh Richard Holloway's Leaving Alexandria, but that also is an excellent and moving testimony to one man's integrity and bravery in acknowledging his lack of faith.

Chive: you imply that you still believe in God but don't feel as close to 'him' as you used to. Holloway now says he is agnostic about God, while Spufford is happy to profess orthodox Christianity while not hung up on the theology. But both of them feel, and express, a strong sense of yearning and being drawn by some reality beyond themselves. Richard Holloway still attends mass most Sundays.

All our concepts, even the official creeds and formulae of the Church, are human attempts to grasp the ungraspable. Conversely, that means that even imperfect prayers and banal liturgy and poor preaching can keep us in touch with God. But then so can many other 'secular' things like art and nature.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
All our concepts, even the official creeds and formulae of the Church, are human attempts to grasp the ungraspable. Conversely, that means that even imperfect prayers and banal liturgy and poor preaching can keep us in touch with God. But then so can many other 'secular' things like art and nature.

Amen to that. I hear a lot of people say that this idea is somehow heretical.

It isn't. It's just that some people don't know the traditional teaching and are frightened of anything they haven't heard or understood before. Don't be taken in by them. it is THEIR faith that is so weak that they cannot bear uncertainty so project on to others, who then think themselves not to be 'proper Christians'..

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :

Amen to that again!

Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :

quote:
Originally posted by chive:

I don't want to lose God - He's what its all about so what do you suggest I, or someone in a similar position, should do?

God does not make it easy for any of us, and paradoxically, the harder it is, the more he (apparently) loves us. Good to know; not so good when we have to find a path through the jungle of doubts and fears.

Perhaps what helps is to know that others have had the same experience; that the Dark Night of the Soul is normal, rather than exceptional, and that we all have to face it, sooner or later. So I think of the Lord in Gethsemane, and I know that he understands. He faced the same doubts, and he struggled just as much as we do with them.

Posted by hugorune (# 17793) on :

I think am just stepping out of my Dark Night of the Soul. It lasted twenty years, and it was hell - but in retrospect I probably needed to learn the lesson.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

For many years one of the ways I experienced God most/ best was reading and meditating on Scripture. Then I went to study for two years, Biblical and Missiological studies and scarily the lights went out....
Where was God? It was a horribly uncomfortable time. I carried on reading Scripture, going to church and looking for God in the natural world but it all felt dry and empty.
Then one day I was watching a TV documentary with my 7 year old daughter. It was about a desert and how the seeds of beautiful flowers remain hidden away until the rains come and then the whole desert blooms...
Suddenly the light came on again for me and I realised that was what had been happening for me. As I continued to engage in spiritual practices I was planting seeds and waiting for the rains.
Eventually the rains came and Scripture (as well as other things) became "alive with God" for me again.
You will be in my prayers, Chive
[Votive]

Posted by hanginginthere (# 17541) on :

I would endorse the Spufford book - it explained to me why I am still hanging in there! If you are familiar with the Narnia books, Rowan Williams's The Lion's World gives a refreshingly new slant on old truths, while Iain Mathhew's The Impact of God is a helpful introduction to John of the Cross, who famously gave us the phrase 'dark night of the soul'. I found it very encouraging when I was in a particularly bleak place spiritually

Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :

Chive, I don't think you should do anything more than stay aware of what you think is "right" in life; read, do, attend things that uplift you and help you be a good person in the world (you know better than I what they are, or maybe they will reveal themselves to you if you are looking for them); and above all listen.

It may well be that the wavelength between you and God has changed and you'll pick it up later.

Faithfulness to what can be is not a bad thing. That's how many of us humans get through stale or rough patches in our relationships with one another.

Hoping for the best for you,

sabine

Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :

that's beautiful, mrs beaky.

I wash up and down on my 'where is God?' spectrum, and I've recently taken to wearing my cross so that I remember to ask for help when the road is rough.

I have to stop worrying about all the people in the world with worse problems than mine - either God is omniscient and omnipotent, or he's not. There is no suggestion in all of scripture that he's just a particularly effective superhero...

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Like Adeodatus, I too have asked a similar (although not identical) question - hope those answers are helpful too.

There do seem to be a significant number of Shipmates who find themselves asking questions like this - perhaps it is this deep thinking and questioning attitude which draws us to the Ship in the first place?

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :

Spufford's book is certainly interesting - I wouldn't call it angry, though. It makes for easy reading, and it's refreshingly honest (and sweary), which may be what you need. If you're after a proper review before picking it up, I just so happen to have written one.

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