Ship of Fools: Cider

Thread: Cider Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

There's nothing like a tall, cool glass of good cider in your favourite pub on a sunny evening after work. Maybe even outside in the garden, under the shade of a tree with the autumn sunlight casting long shadows across the grass/paved area.

I tried Aspall's recently, which was pretty good, and Green Goblin by Wych Wood is another one I like.

Any favourite ciders you'd like to recommend? I'm a fan of the sparkling sort, and prefer them dry with a hint of sweetness, but happy to listen to any/all suggestions/reminiscences.

[ 22. September 2013, 14:33: Message edited by: Ariel ]

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

I've had the great good fortune to enjoy cider made by my brother and his next door neighbor, appropriately enough in Somerset.

Truth to tell, it's seriously dry, still, but clear and clean, so most mix it with a little lemonade or sweet cider. Even then it's on the dry side of dry, but very refreshing. It also makes a fine base for marinading pork and it only takes a couple of hours to tenderise it and impart some flavour. Then you slap the meat on the BBQ, cook for a shorter time than you would usually expect, and wash it down with some more cider!

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

We used to go to a cider farm in Hereford when we visited rellies thereabouts - but both are gone now. And there doesn't seem to be artisanal cider making in Scotland (brew pubs and distilleries now....)

So we check out the supermarket ranges - which include the two Ariel mentioned. And Thatcher's varietals (though they seem only ever to carry Katy) and the various Weston lines. The stuff in tins - or 2 litre plastic bottles - is for the Get Bevvied Cheaply market, though the likes of Strongbow is OK for cooking. I can't get excited by the various flavoured ciders or perries: my ideal cider would be still or slightly piccante, pale in colour and very dry.

[ 22. September 2013, 15:21: Message edited by: Firenze ]

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

I was looking at the Strongbow Dark Fruit Cider today in the supermarket but decided against it. Somehow blackcurrant doesn't seem right in a cider.

(Cider, btw, for those outside Britain and for the purpose of this thread is an alcoholic fermented apple drink.)

Posted by S. Bacchus (# 17778) on :

My current musical obsession is a local band (Rutland's best up and coming indie folk-pop close harmony group). They have a rather nice song about the effects of strong cider on young men.

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :

Westons at Much Marcle, Hrefordshire. Their Stowford Press is a good quaffing cider.
Thatchers, in Sandford, Avon. Their pear cider is gorgeous, and they have a really good farm shop at their premises. We go to Wells a couple of times a year in order to stock up on cider. Mind, it's a bit offputting - they sell cider from the barrel, and it has a sign on it which advises it be drunk within a week. The locals come in with plastic gallon containers for their supplies.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

To be honest, I mostly remember cider (and vaguely at that) from the times I was a student in Swansea and we didn't have much money to buy alcohol [Biased]

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Devon Red is nice, dry-ish.

Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on :

The Wetherspoons pub local to me has Old Rosie, which I like, but it is the cloudy sort of cider, pretty much still. Pretty much strong too, I stick to 1 pint.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I like Old Rosie (never had it on draught though). We have Aspall's in our neck of the woods. Draught is good, so is Imperial; however this year there is a special commemorative Benjamin Britten cider (available only at Aldeburgh and Snape) which is a still, old-fashioned style - and 8.4%! Lovely.

[ 22. September 2013, 18:57: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Oferyas (# 14031) on :

Ahem, I, er have my own cider orchard. Honestly - it came free with the house.....

In this part of Normandy there are orchards everywhere, and every village seems to have its own producers of cider and perry (and calvados!).

Cider is ubiquitous in Brittany as well, served most traditionally in a wide earthenware cup with no handle. Apparently some wag tried to introduce Cornish cider to one Brittany village: the local drinkers pronounced it to be not bad: almost good enough to cook with.....

Posted by Edith (# 16978) on :

Aspalls range is really very good, especially the one called Lady Jennifer.

I haven't seen Number 7 for many years, but that was wonderful, very dry and very appley

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

That's still pretty much the case in parts of Gloucestershire and Herefordshire, Oferyas. We try to head off there at least once a year to explore the local drinks. There are still small areas of old cider apple orchards in existence in the west country, as far east as Hampshire. Plus of course some big, commercial ones.

Of the names available outside their area of production, Westons is the one we normally go with.

PS - what's all this about pear cider? There's no such thing!

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
Ahem, I, er have my own cider orchard. Honestly - it came free with the house.....

In this part of Normandy there are orchards everywhere, and every village seems to have its own producers of cider and perry (and calvados!).

Cider is ubiquitous in Brittany as well, served most traditionally in a wide earthenware cup with no handle. Apparently some wag tried to introduce Cornish cider to one Brittany village: the local drinkers pronounced it to be not bad: almost good enough to cook with.....

Fond memories. A number of decades ago, a GF and I (2 good Christian girls from Norn Irlin) went on a camping holiday to Brittany. I even bought a couple of the cups (long since chipped, broken and thrown out). I was, at this point, too young and innocent to know about Calvados, more's the pity. But I have always majorly wanted to go back.

Posted by TonyK (# 35) on :

Thatcher's is fairly local for me. Their Gold is often on draft in pubs; I know one pub where they have Thatcher's Cheddar on tap - a cloudy semi-scrumpy style, which is very nice, but rather too strong for lunchtime drinking.

My local T****'s sells Thatcher's Festival - a cider in a three litre bag (like wine bags), which is very nice and keeps well too.

I also like Aspalls and Stowford Press and will always try new draft ciders when I come across them.

I'll only drink Strongbow or (shudder) Magners or Blackthorn if there is no other choice...

And T****'s own brand is just about OK for cooking...

Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :

Recently, I have become very fond of Angry Orchard. It's dryer than the other readily available cider. (Woodchuck.) This would be a great time to enjoy one. Darned antibiotics.

Many years ago, we used to take a variety of smaller, less pretty apples (not as good for preserving or pies) to my great uncle's home and use his cider press. Sometimes the cider turned into hard cider! It was a real treat and we thought it was better than the non-alcoholic version.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Dlet and his mates like the Wychwood cider (and the related beers as well). Another favourite is the Rekorderlieg (spelling?) range. Both are readily available here.

Madame and I prefer perries to apple ciders, but enjoy either on hot day with a terrine or some cold chicken/pork for a lunch outside. We can buy 750 ml bottles of enjoyable Norman organic cider and perry at a local bottle shop.

[ 23. September 2013, 02:53: Message edited by: Gee D ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Edith:
Aspalls range is really very good, especially the one called Lady Jennifer.

I haven't seen Number 7 for many years, but that was wonderful, very dry and very appley

I've never seen that in 8 years of living in Suffolk, so I guess they don't make it any more. Lady Jennifer is good on a hot sunny day.

There is another Suffolk cider called Dograpper which I personally think is pretty foul and rough. Diehards may disagree ...

quote:
Many years ago, we used to take a variety of smaller, less pretty apples (not as good for preserving or pies) to my great uncle's home and use his cider press. Sometimes the cider turned into hard cider! It was a real treat and we thought it was better than the non-alcoholic version.

When living in West Africa, one of the local fruits is the cashew (the one the nuts come from). When you press them you get a lovely off-appley drink; however you only need to leave it for 24 hours and it becomes very potent!

[ 23. September 2013, 07:00: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Edith (# 16978) on :

I googled Number 7 and remembered it was made by Bulmers. It was made from real apple juice not concentrate and was the only cider that the Bulmer who ran the company would drink. They didn't promote it and stopped production in 2002. Very sad.

I'm taking careful note of all these recommendations. It would be good to know where they can be bought as well.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Many supermarkets sell Thatcher's ciders which are pretty good (Waitrose at least also has Old Rosie, and a good selection of ciders in general).

I live in Suffolk so Aspall's is widely available via the East of England Co-op and Adnams' shops, I can't speak for the wider world.

Breton cider is harder to get although there is one wine shop in Cambridge which sells it (not the one in the centre of town opposite King's College). There is (or used to be) a creperie in Richmond (Surrey) which had it on the menu.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Edith:

I'm taking careful note of all these recommendations. It would be good to know where they can be bought as well.

Sainsbury's have a decent range.

Actually, all the major supermarkets have some ciders worth trying.

Posted by cheesymarzipan (# 9442) on :

I didn't really drink cider until I moved to Somerset, so mostly I know the west country ones - Stowford Press as mentioned by many people. This can often be found on draught all over the place. Also Thatcher's.
My favourite is Ashton Press - made by Butcombe's, available around Bristol but nowhere else really. Quite light and not too fizzy. Named for the Long Ashton Cider Institute.

Now I'm in Ireland it's a bit of a challenge to find 'proper cider' ie made of apples not orange chemical orrible stuff. However Stonewell's is tasty, made in county Cork. MacIvor's is good too. There's an off licence up the road which gets various ones in so I like to try them all!

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

We bought some lovely stuff from the Somerset Cider Brandy Co. some years ago.

Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :

I used to drink dreadful cider ('bird with a constant headache' and 'arrow shooting device') when I was an under-age drinker [Eek!]

and into my first year at University. Then an evening occurred which involved the fairly decent 'Gaymer's Old English' and another substance..., which together made me rather ill. [Disappointed]

So I stopped drinking cider for year and years, until I think on a holiday at Ilfracombe in 1994 when I drank a little. Now I occasionally have a bottle of one of the decent brands that is available in supermarkets, like Weston's or Thatcher's.

The best cider I ever have had was called 'Orchard Pig', at the CAMRA beer festival at Barrow Hill roundhouse near Chesterfield. Mmmm! I have found it in a bottle (in Wales) once, not quite as good as it was in draft form.

[ 23. September 2013, 13:56: Message edited by: Alaric the Goth ]

Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I live in Suffolk so Aspall's is widely available via the East of England Co-op and Adnams' shops, I can't speak for the wider world.

You can get Aspall's in pretty much any supermarket, but my test for a truly good pub is one which serves Aspall's on tap. Heaven.

I'd second Green Goblin, and also Old Rascal, also available in supermarkets, recognisable by the thieving masked fox on the label.

Although not situated in cider country, I am surrounded by real ale pubs, often with guest ciders. Black Rat is tasty but lethal as the name would suggest.

Re: Magners. I'm afraid if a pub only serves Magners, I order a vodka and coke. Magners has also given rise to the phenomenon of asking if you want ice in your cider. No, I bloody well do not. [Mad]

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
To be honest, I mostly remember cider (and vaguely at that) from the times I was a student in Swansea and we didn't have much money to buy alcohol

My Better Half says that when he was a student in Bristol in the 1970s, because of the way taxation worked cider was 3p a pint less than beer (and being Bristol, it was considerably stronger), which made for some pretty senior hangovers.

He also said the locals used to laugh at the large gentlemen from Yorkshire who'd say "it's nowt but a drop o' apple juice - that's never going to harm us" just before falling over ... [Snigger]

For myself, I had my first-ever hangover courtesy of Autumn Gold (or some such abomination) and have been rather wary of it ever since.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
You can get Aspall's in pretty much any supermarket, but my test for a truly good pub is one which serves Aspall's on tap. Heaven.

This is actually what prompted this thread. I was sitting in a pub garden in the city centre one evening last week after work, with a glass of Aspall’s, which I hadn’t had before, and very good it was too.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Personally I quite like Gwynt y Ddraig, not least because "Dragon's Wind" is rather ambiguous.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
My test for a truly good pub is one which serves Aspall's on tap. Heaven.

Yay!

quote:
Re: Magners. I'm afraid if a pub only serves Magners, I order a vodka and coke. Magners has also given rise to the phenomenon of asking if you want ice in your cider. No, I bloody well do not.

I think Magners is foul, wouldn't touch it.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

This thread is bringing back memories, as I used to work in the Coronation Tap in Bristol, when I was a student. The landlord (old Dick) was very hot on the word 'scrumpy' never being used, and all the regulars knew this. If anyone new came in and asked for scrumpy, he would do a little speech, 'sir, or madam, we serve dry cider and sweet cider, and you are able to buy them mixed, but we do not serve scrumpy'.

The dry cider was very dry, and very potent, and many a young man and woman could be seen tottering up the hill after several pints.

As a concession he did serve some nice bitter, but no spirits. Just looking at some photos, and it still looks very nice, not modernized too much.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

My son used to go there when he was a student, it's a well-known student haunt!

When he got married last year in Devon, the local pub had a draught scrumpy which came out of an unmarked container. Of course I tried it, it was cheap and ... marvellous!

I once had some very dry cider from the Lyme Bay Cider Co. Too dry for me I'm afraid, I think it needed to age (but I'm not sure if cider does!)

I seem to be contributing far too much to this thread ... but then I don't drink beer as I don't care for it. (Wine is quite another matter ...).

[ 23. September 2013, 17:09: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I've had the great good fortune to enjoy cider made by my brother and his next door neighbor, appropriately enough in Somerset.

Truth to tell, it's seriously dry, still, but clear and clean, so most mix it with a little lemonade or sweet cider. Even then it's on the dry side of dry, but very refreshing. It also makes a fine base for marinading pork and it only takes a couple of hours to tenderise it and impart some flavour. Then you slap the meat on the BBQ, cook for a shorter time than you would usually expect, and wash it down with some more cider!

That has been my experience with home made cider as well- I have about twenty bottles sitting in my closet, which are very dry, and go down best mixed with something sweet. I suspect a few of them will end up doing cooking duty shortly.

The last great cider I had was an Asturian version, which had wonderful barnyard notes- almost like a cheese rind. It doesn't sound good, but it was wonderful.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Personally I quite like Gwynt y Ddraig, not least because "Dragon's Wind" is rather ambiguous.

Dragon's Wind, Black Rat, Green Goblin, Dark Fruits... I detect a theme here.

(I wonder if it's the apples/autumn/Halloween thing at the back of manufacturers' minds?)

Posted by cheesymarzipan (# 9442) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
Re: Magners. I'm afraid if a pub only serves Magners, I order a vodka and coke. Magners has also given rise to the phenomenon of asking if you want ice in your cider. No, I bloody well do not.

bloody ice in cider... this annoys me too. Magners is so prolific over here that apparently all cider comes with a glass of ice. If they ask me I say no ice, if they just give me a glass of ice I leave it and drink from the bottle like the classy lady I am.
They never try putting ice in Mr Marzipan's beer, do they...

Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
The Wetherspoons pub local to me has Old Rosie, which I like, but it is the cloudy sort of cider, pretty much still. Pretty much strong too, I stick to 1 pint.

I had some Rosie's Pig earlier in the summer when the big W had a cider festival - it was pretty good.

Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :

saw the thread name and thought 'yes please', but have joined in to mention that I went to an unfamiliar pub after my aunt's funeral in August, and ordered a pint of cider. They only had the local brew, a still, cloudy pint that looked at my harmlessly, as if to say, I am but a little dry...

I was sloshed. The funeral got a lot better, very quickly.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

As I'm sure you all know, over here in the US, what you call cider is called "hard cider;" cider is non-alcoholic. Where I'm from, in Michigan, we have cider mills, which tend to be in rural, hilly areas, with an orchard, and well, I guess you'd call it a mill where they press the apples into apple juice and cider. They sell doughnuts (cake doughnuts, plain, or sprinkled with powdered sugar or cinnamon & sugar) as well as apples of many varieties, cider, maple syrup, maple sugar candy, and so forth. And they offer hay rides on horse-drawn wagons. It's an autumn tradition for many families.

I was thinking how, with all the vacant land in Detroit, someone should start up an urban version of the cider mill, and specialize in making hard cider (what other kind would you make in Detroit, right?) - except they'd still want to keep things family-friendly so urban kids could visit the orchard and mill. There are a ton of cider mills in southeastern Michigan, but none within city limits. Which makes sense - it's not traditionally an urban thing.

Do you all have something similar in the UK? It sounds like people were talking about something like that, "cider farms" - is that just the orchard, or is there more to it than that? When I think of cider, I think of a cider mill. Do you tend to think more of pubs?

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

That's not a bad idea- a hard cider company opened in Denver a few years back, and while they don't have their own orchard, they still make the stuff right here. I know of a number of breweries specializing in farmhouse ales (basically rustic beers that a farmer might have made for his field hands) in Michigan. Maybe a farmhouse cidery is the next logical step. The big brands of cider that we get here are generally overly sweet and not all that good- I'm sure that the right person could turn an artisanal cidery into a success.

Posted by Carex (# 9643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
As I'm sure you all know, over here in the US, what you call cider is called "hard cider;" cider is non-alcoholic...

And, very technically (in accordance with the food labeling laws) cider is pressed from the raw apples while juice is cooked out by heating.

I've seen some artisan (hard) cider makers around recently, even a few brands on a display in one of the supermarkets. One problem is that most of our apple orchards are planted in varieties for the fresh fruit market (though some types such as Granny Smith or Pippin are also used for pies and other processed foods.) Good cider requires different varieties of apples, so it takes some advance planning to shift an orchard (probably 3 to 5 years for full production by grafting new varieties onto existing trees), longer if you are planting new ones.

And a further point of trivia: Johnny Appleseed collected his seeds from cider mills, so the trees he grew (and sold to settlers) were better for hard cider than for eating apples.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

There's been a revival in the last 20 years of hard cider in the U.S. In colonial times it was the most popular alcoholic beverage. My local spectacular beer pub also carries a number of Washington state hard ciders One of my local farmers market farmers is working with the new Washington State alcohol laws that will allow him to make applejack.

The biggest problem with converting Detroit to orchards and cider mills is that it takes several years to get trees into production, even the modern ones that are more like globular bushes than trees. Most of the good hard ciders require time to ferment and age, and it takes time to figure out how to make it good from any one location, so it's not like fresh cider where you can walk away with what you picked. There's also a bunch of health regulations that make the kind of cider from apple drops that I grew up with in New York and Massachusetts illegal. Also, apples have migrated west because grown in crowded surroundings they get diseases too easily.

While I'd love a few more orchards, especially with some northern varieties like Spy and Fameuse, it's not likely to be practical at scale. Two blocks down the street from where I live was a block of apple orchards in 1910. I can't see it competing with the very large farms.

[ 23. September 2013, 23:18: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]

Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cheesymarzipan:
...They never try putting ice in Mr Marzipan's beer, do they...

This sounds like the same barman who once served my pint in a thin Stella glass so I could get my dainty lady-hand round it. [Roll Eyes]

churchgeek, is this the sort of thing you meant? There is a petting zoo and a café, as well as the shop and tour of the farm. I fondly remember the T-shirt bought on a visit, bearing the legend 'Legless but Smiling'.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

Aaaahhh Cider (goes misty eyed at the memory) - now you need to drink the real stuff not this poncy brew out of a bottle. If it's got a name, then it's not in the game.

A few Devon pubs of my recent acquaintance used to dispense the real stuff. Still, dry, tasting just like apple juice. Nectar. But beware - mad apples inside. Now that's the stuff to drink with a pasty me 'andsome.

One pint. Sure. perhaps two? Much beyond that and the brain twisting and leg removal begins ..... but oh the bliss.

Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :

Best cider is draught, by the pint.

But as I don't drink beer at all, I'll have bottled cider if draught cider is not available.

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :

Westons - the vintage, but yes twice the strength.
Stowfords

Locally Robinsons - I really like that and as my phone number is only 1 digit different from theirs I have had occasional messages left from people attempting to order wholesale from them. Great Irony being my answerphone message clearly identifies this as the Methodist manse !

Even if then irony is lost on them I find it strange that when attempting to call company A that on hearing a message referring to something totally different they'd still leave a message...

Back to theme -
Had travelled all of an hour to the edges of the big city to meet friends for pub lunch and horrified that only the plastic bottle gang were available on tap or the berry stuff in a bottle. Getting to used to living in a cider area.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

The best cider was homemade on a farm owned by friends and drunk out of mugs. Failing that, though, you have to decide whether you want rough, cloudy, spit the pips out, or smooth. The name usually gives away the rougher, stronger varieties (Tractor Juice, Cripple Cock) - I can only really drink these in small quantities with food.

Of the smooth variety, Thatcher's really do seem to have the edge in the quality stakes: Old Rascal, 2012 vintage Somerset oak aged, Katy being my favourites.

If you're ever in the vicinity of Hereford, you can visit the Cider Museum, full of interesting facts about cider. And a very wide variety available to taste and buy in their shop.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Some people might remember Creamtealand as being the place of Inch's cider. This is what has happened since. Sam's Poundhouse is well worth hunting out.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

My wife used to enjoy cider until we started on our Atkins diet. We had some good scrumpy when we were in Cornwall.

Posted by pjl (# 16929) on :

Many moons ago I spent a couple of weeks in Okehampton Devon and sampled a no name and cloudy rough cider, tried to find if this cider had a brand name but never succeeded in finding out.

The landlord of the pub limited us all to 2 pints per night,

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

There are several amazing local brews available at The Pig's Nose at East Prawle.

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

William Chase - he of the (Tyrrells) potato chips, and then the award-winning vodka - is now making gin from cider. He says it should be drunk neat, and at room temperature. Anyway, as they need cider for gin, the distillery also makes cider to sell as Cider. Probably destined to be another award-winner.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

I happened on this thread while planning a trip to my local PYO orchard here in New England. I'm going to pick apples for winter storage in my cellar, and buy a couple of gallons of unpasteurized cider.

By federal law, unpasteurized cider can only be sold at points-of-production. I can't buy hard cider except by the bottle at the grocery store, and haven't found a brand I actually like.

So I buy unpasteurized and let it turn "hard" on its own. Love the stuff, but I wish I knew how to keep it for longer without risk of blowing bottles to smithereens.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Seems the result of too much sugar. The yeast keep eating and, erm, producing gas. This is one reason brewers control their process. Another being consistent results.

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