Ship of Fools: Oct. Book Group: "Practice of the Presence of God"

Thread: Oct. Book Group: "Practice of the Presence of God" Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Profuse apologies for the delay! [Hot and Hormonal]

Our book this month is "The Practice of the Presence of God", by Brother Lawrence of the Resurrection.

It's a short book by/about a French soldier, retired due to injury. While he was recovering, he became a Christian--and, later, a monk. He fully expected the practice of Christianity to be horribly grim, but found just the opposite. He was sensitive to the human condition, and was much sought after as a spiritual director.

It should be easy to get, one way or another. There are free versions online; you can buy the book; and, since it's a classic, libraries are apt to have it.

Starting date of the 20th, if that works for you. Please post here and let me know if you're planning on joining us. You're welcome, even if you don't post your plans; and anyone is welcome to join us at any time.

NOTE: this book may not be spoiler territory in the way that fiction is. But let's still wait to discuss the book together on the 20th. Thanks!

Posted by Tree Bee (# 4033) on :

I've downloaded it to my iPad so will join in.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I'm in.

*** SPOILER ***
God is present.

[Biased]

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

LOL, LeRoc!

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

I'm in,if I can find my copy. If not I'll follow with interest.

Huia

Posted by Gussie (# 12271) on :

I've downloaded this for free- but was a bit confused by the number of pages in different editions. Mine appears not to have many pages, so I hope I've got the right one!

Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :

I've downloaded it too. See y'all around the 29th. [Smile]

Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :

I'm in! That book will move to the head of the line after the book I'm reading now. I think I heard grumbling from the other books at being bumped back.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

It does sound interesting: I'll ask Z if she can find it on Nook or Kindle.

Posted by sososlowly (# 17592) on :

And me, please.

Posted by Bene Gesserit (# 14718) on :

I've just downloaded it (Kindle edition) for free from Amazon.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

Z did too and she's actually heard of it but may not read it.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
I've downloaded it too. See y'all around the 29th.

The 20th, actually, unless people need more time.
[Smile]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I started reading.

Finding it a little boring [Hot and Hormonal]

, but I'll make it until the 20th.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

{bump}

Is the 20th still ok for people?

Posted by Gussie (# 12271) on :

I've got a bit side-tracked by more Sherlock Holmes, but should be on track for tomorrow.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Oh, good! I was just planning to read it. I'll probably join you in a few days.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I'll be a bit busy in the coming week (and quite possibly off-line from Wednesday until Friday) but I'll try to find a moment to chip in.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

{Posting a little early. No need to rush to respond!}

**DISCUSSION STARTS HERE.**

Two resources, in case anyone hasnt read it yet, didn't like the version, or wants a quick summary:

-- Brother Lawrence--Wikipedia. Bio and summary of the book.

--At the very end, there are links to two free sources of the book, available in multiple formats. I used the Gutenberg version, which is somewhat different from what I read decades ago. (IIRC, the differences are mostly in the preface and editorial comments.)

Here are the questions. Feel free to skip any of them, or make up your own.

--How did the book affect you? Any knee-jerk reaction? Things you especially liked/disliked? Did anything get under your skin? Anything make you want to dance?

--Have you read PPG before? If so, did you react the same way this time?

--Whether or not you have any kind of religious or spiritual practice, do any of Br. L’s suggestions fit with the way you currently live your life? Are there any that you’d like to try? Can they be applied in a non-religious way? (E.g., if you don’t believe in God.)

--Does Br. L’s intimacy with God appeal to you? Is that available to anyone who wants it? Or do you have to be some sort of gifted mystic?

--Would you like to meet Br. L?

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Thank you for the questions!

How did the book affect you? Any knee-jerk reaction? Things you especially liked/disliked? Did anything get under your skin? Anything make you want to dance?
To be honest, I didn't like it very much. I understand the need for meditation from time to time (I try to practice it too), and I also understand that for some people it is a full-time occupation. But to me, Brother Lawrence came over as a self-centered, holier-than-thou prat, with a lot of false modesty thrown into the mix.

I also disagree with him on a couple of points. I don't think that we should never let our minds wander. Yes, there are moments when we should be fully concentrated on God, but letting our minds wander can also be good from time to time. I have the feeling that he's on the verge of setting up a false dichotomy between thinking about God and thinking about the world here.

Furthermore, I disagree that sickness and pains are blessings of God that He sent us in order to teach us.

Have you read PPG before? If so, did you react the same way this time?
No, and thank you for putting it on the list. I like reading things that would have been outside of my horizon otherwise.

Whether or not you have any kind of religious or spiritual practice, do any of Br. L’s suggestions fit with the way you currently live your life? Are there any that you’d like to try? Can they be applied in a non-religious way? (E.g., if you don’t believe in God.)
Thinking more about God is always a good thing of course, and I'm probably guilty of not doing it enough. But I wouldn't do it in the way he suggests.

Does Br. L’s intimacy with God appeal to you? Is that available to anyone who wants it? Or do you have to be some sort of gifted mystic?
Intimacy with God can be a good thing, provided that we don't see Him as 'our best buddy' or something like that. There are also other ways to try to get closer to God than that which Brother Lawrence suggests. For example, trying to find Him in Nature.

Would you like to meet Br. L?
No. I've already met some people who are like him, and that's quite enough.

Posted by Tree Bee (# 4033) on :

I had 2 or 3 goes at reading this but found it too dense and wordy.
So I gave up, sorry about that. [Frown]

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

I am only on Chapter 4, or I shall be shortly: going into work today for at least five hours and shall try to read enough to answer questions if I have the afternoon off.

I am a devout RC and have an active prayer life including early Wednesdays at church, but this is nothing that ever crossed my radar before. However, I don't think I'm cut out to be a monk just yet!

I'll try to get through it by the end of the week. I am listening to classical music on Radio 3 as I type this and read. It helps concentration.

Posted by Gussie (# 12271) on :

I think my views of the book are pretty much identical with LeRoc's. Part of the trouble I had was that I was reading it as a free download with no context and rather dodgy formatting. I think I might have likd it better in an annotated edition.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

Same prob here!

Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :

I am not enjoying this book, and am wanting to put it down, but will give it a bit more time.

My personal reading time is limited, so I usually try to read things that interest me more.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

--For those of you who read a badly formatted text: if you want to try a different version, http://www.ccel.org/ccel/lawrence/practice.html may be a better fit.

--It's absolutely ok if you hate the book. For my part, I'd forgotten about some things that I now consider bad. (I first read it maybe 30 years ago, and I've changed a lot.) But there are things in it that helped me a lot. I'll try to post my answers over the weekend.

--Has anyone read the Wikipedia entry? I posted a link in the discussion post. Don't feel obligated to read it! [Smile]

It's just there in case you want to explore beyond the text.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Sorry for duplicate. Connection burp.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--For those of you who read a badly formatted text: if you want to try a different version, http://www.ccel.org/ccel/lawrence/practice.html may be a better fit.

I shall take a look if ever I get a day off - this is my busy season: my shop steward got a call tonight about a job for me tomorrow when I was on another show. If I do not finish the book by Halloween, I shall give it up. NaNoWriMo beckons and I have already plotted out all 30 chapters of my novel: 20 of 30 chapters are based upon actual events in my life!

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

--How did the book affect you? Any knee-jerk reaction? Things you especially liked/disliked? Did anything get under your skin? Anything make you want to dance?

I love the bits about focusing on God. Basically, they're about mindfulness. I don't like the bits that I feel belong in the "Ogre God" category.

--Have you read PPG before? If so, did you react the same way this time?

Yes, read it a few decades ago. I don't remember how I reacted to the things I now see as bad. But I found a great deal of kindness in his spirituality. And that stayed with me. And made me dance.

--Whether or not you have any kind of religious or spiritual practice, do any of Br. L’s suggestions fit with the way you currently live your life? Are there any that you'd like to try? Can they be applied in a non-religious way? (E.g., if you don't believe in God.)

Well, I do basic mindfulness practices—some religious, some not. You can definitely be mindful without focusing on or believing in God. I think it's probably possible to strip the religion from some of Br. L's techniques.

--Does Br. L's intimacy with God appeal to you? Is that available to anyone who wants it? Or do you have to be some sort of gifted mystic?

Very much appeals to me. I don't know if God actually exists, etc. If She does, I hope She has some way of interacting with each bit of her creation, without them having to be any kind of spiritual superstar.

--Would you like to meet Br. L?
Yes--at least, the Br. L of my imagination! [Biased]

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Thanks, everyone, for participating! [Smile]

Please feel free to continue the discussion, as you like. Even if you haven't yet posted.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Golden Key: But I found a great deal of kindness in his spirituality. And that stayed with me. And made me dance.

Yes, I can see that. I agree that thinking about God more can help us to be more relaxed and kind. That's a good thing, and perhaps I at least should do this more often.

The way this message is conveyed in this book rattles some of my chains sometimes, but I think we should also take into account that this book was written in a different time.

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

Is it alright if I join weeks late? I read the book a few years ago and would like to read it again and see what I think of it now.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:
Golden Key: But I found a great deal of kindness in his spirituality. And that stayed with me. And made me dance.
Yes, I can see that. I agree that thinking about God more can help us to be more relaxed and kind. That's a good thing, and perhaps I at least should do this more often.

The way this message is conveyed in this book rattles some of my chains sometimes, but I think we should also take into account that this book was written in a different time.

Not to mention the guy was a monk.

Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :

Apologies for the delay, I didn't quite manage the book in time but have finished it now.

--How did the book affect you? Any knee-jerk reaction? Things you especially liked/disliked? Did anything get under your skin? Anything make you want to dance?

I was a bit disappointed. I would have liked there to have been a bit more 'how-to', this felt like Brother Lawrence thought we would just 'get' it from listening to his wisdom (not in a non-humble way, I'm sure he'd be horrified that I have this impression). I agree with GK though that he comes across as very kind and caring, and wanting all to experience what he has.

--Have you read PPG before? If so, did you react the same way this time?

Yes, I read it I think back in the late 90s (I lent my copy out to someone and never got it back so haven't read it since then. This time I was using the free ebook from Project Gutenberg). The (evangelical, very charismatic) church I went to at the time was recommending it and so I was curious, as it was very much of a different tradition. But I had a similar reaction then as now. I think I just am not particularly wired this way.

--Whether or not you have any kind of religious or spiritual practice, do any of Br. L’s suggestions fit with the way you currently live your life? Are there any that you’d like to try? Can they be applied in a non-religious way? (E.g., if you don’t believe in God.)

I like to think that I think about God a lot in the normal, everyday - ie not just in formal times of prayer or liturgy, but doing the washing up or other tasks etc. I obviously don't have the same discipline as Brother Lawrence, and am infinitely more distractable, but that was probably what resonated the most with me.

I would have liked to know more about how he prayed the offices as well as how he 'practised the presence of God' in the ordinary.

--Does Br. L’s intimacy with God appeal to you? Is that available to anyone who wants it? Or do you have to be some sort of gifted mystic?

Yes it does, and I think it's available to all, but clearly we live in different times so I would love to read his take on modern life!

--Would you like to meet Br. L?

Yes, but I think I might find him a bit intimidating.

Thank you Golden Key for sorting out this (last) month's book. It is always good to spend a bit of time thinking about God and experiencing his presence more.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Pancho: Is it alright if I join weeks late? I read the book a few years ago and would like to read it again and see what I think of it now.

Of course, join in! I don't think there's a rule that the discussion should stop at a certain point.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Pancho--

Yes, by all means join in!. You and anyone else. [Smile]

Sorry for the delay. Lots of connection problems, lately.

No expiration date for the thread, until it's archived.

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

Thanks, Le Roc and Golden Key. I'll see if I can finish reading it tonight.

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

Okay, here's my answers to the questionnaire. I read an edition I downloaded from Archive.org .

quote:
--How did the book affect you?

It made me think a lot. It made me think over how I put the book into practice since the last time I read it and how I might do better. I also thought about how the book fits into Catholic spirituality as a whole.

quote:
--Any knee-jerk reaction?

Not really. The things Brother Lawrence writes are related to things written by other Catholic spiritual writers and I don't think he would surprise all that much someone familiar with them.

The parts about removing all and any distractions to the love of God did hit a little close to home, not because I'd never read anything like that before but because they reminded me of how difficult that can be and it also made me question myself how much I really wanted to remove those obstacles between myself and God.

quote:
--Things you especially liked/disliked?

His confidence and trust in God is appealing as is his serenity which I think comes through the pages book (or in this case, through the computer screen). I like the accessibility of his method and how he emphasized that it's available to everyone.

I do think he's a little too quick to minimize the importance of of some practices and devotions. I think that living in the cloister maybe he'd forgotten a bit about how helpful those can be to people living in the world but I think it came from genuine concern that people sometimes confuse the means for the end which is a real danger.

quote:
--Did anything get under your skin?

No, not in a bad or good way. I was already familiar with his ideas and reading it this time I didn't find or was reminded of anything to which I strongly objected.

quote:
--Anything make you want to dance?

That's an interesting question. I can't say I felt compelled to dance after this reading and I don't remember feeling compelled the last time I read the book but I think there must be some choreographers out there who would find in it some inspiration.

Maybe Martha Graham would have gotten some ideas after reading the book. She did compare dancers to spiritual athletes, “athletes of God”, and despite his joy and peace Brother Lawrence also mention his struggles so maybe a dancer would find inspiration in his spiritual struggle in pursuit of God just as a dancer struggles with mastery over his body in pursuit of his art.

quote:
--Have you read PPG before?

Yes, I read it several years ago and it did have an effect on me.

quote:
--If so, did you react the same way this time?

I don't think I did. Maybe because I was tired and distracted when I re-read it or maybe because I was already familiar with the book.

Actually, one thing I noticed this time that for some reason I didn't notice the last time is how much it is in keeping with the rest of Catholic spirituality. Some of what I had already been doing before I read the book the first time was very compatible, and clearly related, to Brother Lawrence's way. For example, I had already been making a “morning offering” (a prayer offering the day's works, prayers, sorrows and joy to Christ) each day and the idea of raising one's heart to God during the course of the day is part of classic Catholic spirituality.

quote:
--Whether or not you have any kind of religious or spiritual practice, do any of Br. L’s suggestions fit with the way you currently live your life?

Yes. They fit the way I lived my life when I first read it and they still fit my life today.

quote:
--Are there any that you’d like to try?

I've already tried or been trying them. It's more a matter of perseverance, self-reflection and examining my intentions.

quote:
--Can they be applied in a non-religious way? (E.g., if you don’t believe in God.)

To be honest I think Brother Lawrence would be very horrified by this idea and it would be impossible anyway because by definition the practice of the presence of God is religious. In the book he emphasizes how it is a simple and sure path to God and it's value lies in its end which is to be in the presence of God.

I think it's tempting to equate the practice of the presence of God with mindfulness but I think they're different. The first is an actual relationship with the Divine Person which is why I don't believe its possible to apply it in a non-religious way. Mindfulness, as far as I understand it, doesn't require a relationship with someone outside the self and as far as I can tell in the Buddhist sense it is aimed at something different than that relationship with God that Brother Lawrence intended to achieve and which he recommended to others.

I think, though, that something similar to mindfulness is helpful to quiet the mind and pay attention to the presence of God.

quote:
--Does Br. L’s intimacy with God appeal to you?

Yes. Christians desire union with God and Brother Lawrence found a way to taste some of that in this life.

quote:
--Is that available to anyone who wants it?

Yes, I believe so but it takes time and some struggle and even some suffering.

quote:
--Or do you have to be some sort of gifted mystic?

You don't have to be a gifted mystic but depending on someone's state in life it might require patience, encouragement, trust, guidance and time.

quote:
--Would you like to meet Br. L?

Yes.

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