Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:And so were Christians. You know, those horrible bigots you told LGBT folk to run away from in preference for other religions.
Originally posted by leo:
Muslims were at a Pride here. in London
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
quote:Buddhism's 'slightly murky' history on LGBT issues was present in my mind, but they didn't occupy more than about 5%. The other 95% was occupied with how incredibly insulting Leo's statement was: 'most Christian churches (but not the one where I'm a minister, obviously) are so horrible that I (a Christian minister) tell gay people that they should become Buddhists'. Which, despite his extravagant protestations about being the world's most Inclusive™ person, isn't actually very welcoming.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Buddhism has a slightly murky, varied history regarding homosexuality. Largely influenced by the tradition and culture a particular group/person is part of. But Buddhism is not so much about condemnation regardless.
So I would say it is a fair point from an acceptance of sexuality POV, especially amongst Western Buddhists.
Not so much if said LBGT are truly Christian in their hearts.
quote:Yes, but Western Buddhists are mostly white middle-class hippies. (The white middle-classness, by the way, is the reason why they tend to be influential in interfaith structures out of all proportion to their numbers. Same goes for Baha'is.)
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
...So I would say it is a fair point from an acceptance of sexuality POV, especially amongst Western Buddhists....
quote:Welcoming LGBT couples? Blessing their relationships? Giving them the sacraments without their repending of their state of mortal sin?
Originally posted by Tubbs:
There are also whole swathes of churches outside Anglicanism that do give LGBTs a warm welcome which might be. .....I suspect the idea that Leo is as bigoted as the next person
quote:Bertrand Russell observed(though I think the observation was probably commonplace by the time he came along) that the English Romantics had a soft spot for Catholicism, but as an act of rebellion, it only made sense within a protestant culture. In a Cathoilc country, allying with the Church would be the most conformist thing you could possibly do.
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:Yes, but Western Buddhists are mostly white middle-class hippies. (The white middle-classness, by the way, is the reason why they tend to be influential in interfaith structures out of all proportion to their numbers. Same goes for Baha'is.)
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
...So I would say it is a fair point from an acceptance of sexuality POV, especially amongst Western Buddhists....
quote:Let me get this straight...you were called to Hell by a LGBT person for standing up for LGBT persons?
originally posted leo:
If I am in hell because of standing up for LGBT people and Jews, then I shall be proud to stay here while this thread descends, as they always do, into name-calling and mutual recrimination.
quote:Dang skippy
originally posted by leo:
Bigot? Yes, I am probably bigotted against bigots. Typical liberal trap innit?
quote:No it isn’t. You’re confusing official teaching with how things are done in the church on the corner and the amount of hot air an issue generates with attitudes.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:Welcoming LGBT couples? Blessing their relationships? Giving them the sacraments without their repending of their state of mortal sin?
Originally posted by Tubbs:
There are also whole swathes of churches outside Anglicanism that do give LGBTs a warm welcome which might be. .....I suspect the idea that Leo is as bigoted as the next person
RCs - by far the largest denomination - no
The orthodoxen - mainly see it as a pastoral, rather than a juridical, issue. But those theologians, like Fr. Hopko, who argue that there is a place for celibate gays in the church are labelled 'liberal' - so what about the rest?
Right - that's 75% of Christians accounted for.
Now the rest:
Salvation Army won't allow LGBT officers
Baptists - remember Steve Chalke and the outrage? Southern baptists anyone?
C of E. - remember Archbishop Welby's statement of how the 'traditional teaching', with which he agrees, is seen as 'hatred' in the UK.
Methodists - still on what they call a journey of faith - one methodist minister that i know did a blessing in a Quaker meeting house because she wasn't allowed to to do in a church building.
URC - probably the most accepting - their report on the subject begins with lived experience rather than biblical proof texts.
Bigot? Yes, I am probably bigotted against bigots. Typical liberal trap innit?
quote:I have some on-again, off-again involvement with Unitarianism(mostly on-line these days), and, while there are groups within Unitarianism who identify as Christian, overall I would not call contemporary Unitarianism Christian.
Unitarians, Quakers etc – I believe it’s all cool with them. Didn’t the first gay marriage in a religious building take place in a Unitarian church?! But let’s ignore them as they don’t fit your argument.
quote:Not to go on too much of a tangent, but location does not confer authenticity in the practice of one's religion. Nor does length of practice.
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:Bertrand Russell observed(though I think the observation was probably commonplace by the time he came along) that the English Romantics had a soft spot for Catholicism, but as an act of rebellion, it only made sense within a protestant culture. In a Cathoilc country, allying with the Church would be the most conformist thing you could possibly do.
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:Yes, but Western Buddhists are mostly white middle-class hippies. (The white middle-classness, by the way, is the reason why they tend to be influential in interfaith structures out of all proportion to their numbers. Same goes for Baha'is.)
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
...So I would say it is a fair point from an acceptance of sexuality POV, especially amongst Western Buddhists....
Having lived for a while in a country that is about a quarter Buddhist, I'll say that, while Buddhism over here isn't exactly the polar opposite of what hippyish westerners imagine, it doesn't perfectly match the idealized version either. I believe westerners often associate Buddhism with vegetarianism, for example, but the number of vegetarians here is somewhere less than 1% of the population, and a hefty chunk of those are likely Seventh Day Adventists.
quote:I think you'll find that it's Quakers who don't mandate credal beliefs whereas Unitarians specifically reject the Trinity. This is why they are(were?) excluded from membership of most Churches Together-type organisations.
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:I have some on-again, off-again involvement with Unitarianism(mostly on-line these days), and, while there are groups within Unitarianism who identify as Christian, overall I would not call contemporary Unitarianism Christian.
Unitarians, Quakers etc – I believe it’s all cool with them. Didn’t the first gay marriage in a religious building take place in a Unitarian church?! But let’s ignore them as they don’t fit your argument.
Or at least not in North America. I think British Unitarianism is slightly more open to embracing the Christian label. The official title there is "Unitarian and Free Christian Churches", though I still don't think they mandate any creedal beliefs about Jesus, just promote his ethical teachings as exemplary.
quote:Muslims were at a Pride here. in London
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Unitarians, Quakers etc – I believe it’s all cool with them. Didn’t the first gay marriage in a religious building take place in a Unitarian church?! But let’s ignore them as they don’t fit your argument.....
Muslims / Sections of the Jewish community – Not likely to be sending a float to a gay Pride march any time soon.
And Leo, you’re not bigoted against bigots … You’re just a common old garden bigot. You don’t acknowledge any view accept your own as having any value. And, tbh, there are probably times when, although your heart is probably in the right place, those you’re attempted to defend would rather not have you on their side.
Tubbs
quote:Yes, I am gay (I'm not personally L,B, or T, though, so it would be more accurate to say that I am a gay man and a member of that nebulous thing that is the LGBT 'community'). I'm also probably more Jewish than leo is (I'm not halachically but I have Jewish family and actually considered converting in my teens). And frankly, I think leo's outrageous sanctimonious response justifies my hell call, about which I was initially ambivalent.
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:Let me get this straight...you were called to Hell by a LGBT person for standing up for LGBT persons?
originally posted leo:
If I am in hell because of standing up for LGBT people and Jews, then I shall be proud to stay here while this thread descends, as they always do, into name-calling and mutual recrimination.
quote:Now there's a stereotype if every I saw one.
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
being a minority group with with a very high average level of education, something that is also true of Jews, come to think of it.
quote:It's not a stereotype, it's backed up by numerous studies. The things you say are stereotypes (which happen to be true
Originally posted by leo:
quote:Now there's a stereotype if every I saw one.
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
being a minority group with with a very high average level of education, something that is also true of Jews, come to think of it.
Gay men are so artisic too. Have a good dress sense, keep fit when str8 men go to seed....
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
).
quote:Because I am so busy with such important things.
Originally posted by leo:
Depends on how tired I'll be upon my return, how many phone messages and emails and whether there's anything new on here that is worth a response.
.
quote:Historically, yes, Unitarians were defined by a christology that rejected the Trinity.
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:I think you'll find that it's Quakers who don't mandate credal beliefs whereas Unitarians specifically reject the Trinity. This is why they are(were?) excluded from membership of most Churches Together-type organisations.
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:I have some on-again, off-again involvement with Unitarianism(mostly on-line these days), and, while there are groups within Unitarianism who identify as Christian, overall I would not call contemporary Unitarianism Christian.
Unitarians, Quakers etc – I believe it’s all cool with them. Didn’t the first gay marriage in a religious building take place in a Unitarian church?! But let’s ignore them as they don’t fit your argument.
Or at least not in North America. I think British Unitarianism is slightly more open to embracing the Christian label. The official title there is "Unitarian and Free Christian Churches", though I still don't think they mandate any creedal beliefs about Jesus, just promote his ethical teachings as exemplary.
quote:That's what I think I object to most. I can sense that leo is good sort really, but he isn't half vain. I don't mind vanity (God knows I'm prone to it myself), but other people aren't accessories with which to show off one's 'inclusive' credentials. And I do get the feeling that, for leo, things like LGBT rights and intefaith work are less about the issues themselves and more about constructing his own image. It's like that line from 'A Man for All Seasons':
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:Because I am so busy with such important things.
Originally posted by leo:
Depends on how tired I'll be upon my return, how many phone messages and emails and whether there's anything new on here that is worth a response.
.
You'll will get used to Leo's little bluster, S Bacchus. Always just rushing in - or out - to highly interesting meetings. At intervals of watching particularly glum art films and reading - gracious, how he reads - scholarly tomes on theology. You must be content to wait your turn.
quote:Which, as somebody pointed out, is pretty much the least catholic statement ever said (and would, therefore, have been utterly alien to the historical Thomas More).
What matters is not that it's true, but that I believe it; or no, not that I believe it , but that I believe it.
quote:No.
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
Also, am I alone in finding it really annoying that leo will clearly put great detail into refuting certain points (often points that nobody has actually made on the thread, and which are thus strictly strawmen), but then ignore the majority of points made against his arguments, presumably because he can't think of a clever answer and will never admit that he was wrong?
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Join the lengthy queue.quote:Guess I'll just post this for a few laughs.
as someone who is occasionally disparaged as being part of the mythical "PC brigade" I am aware that my expressions of solidarity with peoples like gays, Jews and Blacks can be patronising and even prejudiced against them, in that I can see them to be "weak" and needing support from a white, heterosexual Christian.
quote:At least he's no longer pirating huge passages from other people and passing them off as his own. So far as we know, at least.
Originally posted by Firenze:
You'll will get used to Leo's little bluster, S Bacchus. Always just rushing in - or out - to highly interesting meetings. At intervals of watching particularly glum art films and reading - gracious, how he reads - scholarly tomes on theology. You must be content to wait your turn.
quote:Zing.
Originally posted by Firenze:
I would only differ from those who think that, if you cracked the shell of vanity, pomposity and general arm-waving huffery-puffery, you would find a decent person. I don't think you would find anything.
quote:I went to see a play last night called The Book of Everything, adapted from a Dutch novel. It's set in Amsterdam 1951. The strict Calvinist father character, who terrorises his family and hits his wife, is capable of turning absolutely everything into a self-justification.
Originally posted by Gwai:
It's usually fundamentalists I hear described as glorying in all criticism, and concluding that they are persecuted; and persecuted because they are so righteous.
quote:And so were Christians. You know, those horrible bigots you told LGBT folk to run away from in preference for other religions.
Originally posted by leo:
Muslims were at a Pride here. in London
quote:I saw a little bit of this year's Pride march in London. I remember seeing some gay Christian groups and a Moslem group marching. Don't remember seeing any Buddhists though...
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:And so were Christians. You know, those horrible bigots you told LGBT folk to run away from in preference for other religions.
Originally posted by leo:
Muslims were at a Pride here. in London
quote:But he does quote lengthy passages of often dubious relevance, and sometimes he sounds like he's paraphrasing ideas that he's hear elsewhere but not 'inwardly digested' or examined critically (I'm pretty sure that was part of the basis of his bizarre attitude on the thread about 'My song is love unknown': some authority he trusted must have told him that the hymn was anti-Semitic, and he's incapable of letting go of that fact). As a teacher myself, I get that sort of thing fairly often from students, but I've always assumed it mostly had to do with the pressure to turn in work by a deadline. I don't get why anyone would post that way on an internet forum. Also, my students can almost always be made to take a second look at their opinions and analyse them critically (I regard it as my job to make them do so). Leo doesn't seem to do that, or at least not very often, which I find odd as he is also a teacher.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:At least he's no longer pirating huge passages from other people and passing them off as his own. So far as we know, at least.
Originally posted by Firenze:
You'll will get used to Leo's little bluster, S Bacchus. Always just rushing in - or out - to highly interesting meetings. At intervals of watching particularly glum art films and reading - gracious, how he reads - scholarly tomes on theology. You must be content to wait your turn.
quote:Can't find any collated figures from the 2011 census but according to the Institute for Jewish Policy Research the 2001 Census showed that in the UK
Originally posted by leo:
quote:Now there's a stereotype if every I saw one.
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
being a minority group with with a very high average level of education, something that is also true of Jews, come to think of it.
...
quote:But possibly leo will explain that the IJPR is a front organisation for the worldwide Christian anti-semitic conspiracy.
‘As a group, Jews showed high levels of educational attainment far outranking the national population and all other subgroups. But within the Jewish population there are groups who have not reached even the average Jewish levels of secular education.’
quote:South Bank religion? You want to be careful about that, old boy: look at the people who were involved in it. Robinson/ Rubensohn, Montefiore (of course), Stockwood/ Stueckelbaum - apostate Jews to a man, inspired by hatred of their ancestral religion to create a deceptively liberal and inclusive Christianity under the cover of which the Church could the more effectively pursue, by stealth, its centuries-old anti-Semitic mission. It's all there in the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Southwark.
Originally posted by leo:
[....
Anyway, I am off to a conference all day tomorrow on The legacy of John Robinson, 50 years after Honest to God ...
quote:Which started in this fair city of Bristol when Robinson was curate to Mervyn Stockwood at S. Matthew, Moorfields.
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:South Bank religion?
Originally posted by leo:
[....
Anyway, I am off to a conference all day tomorrow on The legacy of John Robinson, 50 years after Honest to God ...
quote:I'm sorry, leo, but there is so much wrong with this I don't even know where to begin. "Professional"? You're professionally qualified - by whom, and for what fee? - to give spiritual direction to people? In what capacity? Posing as a Christian minister? I mean, WTF? And don't give me bullshit dodges about dodgy Jesuits - that's nothing to the point, as I'm sure you must realise.
Originally posted by leo on the Inclusive Church thread in Eccles:
quote:My spiritual director hat is worn for anyone who comes to be - I am not, and should not be, becauise it is unprofessional, be an advocate for any one church or religion.
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:So Buddhism's good enough for them, but not for you? Or do you just not think that Christianity has any unique recommendation over Buddhism full stop? In which case, what are you doing representing it as a lay minister?
Originally posted by leo:
I'd go as far as to advise LGBTs to stay away from all churches unless they have a very strong faith. Buddhism is far more attractive.
Which is better - a toxic church or a different spiritual path where a person might flourish?
quote:You're not.
Originally posted by leo:
If I am in hell because of standing up for LGBT people and Jews...
quote:Leo is a typical teacher: full of wind and won't listen because he enjoys his own voice too much. To him we're all his pupils to receive his pedagogic pearls of wisdom.
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:You're not.
Originally posted by leo:
If I am in hell because of standing up for LGBT people and Jews...
Believe me, you're not.
You're here because - however well-meaning you often are, and however much I agree with you on the Big Issues - you often act like a total prat.
Sorry.
Like I saw, I agree with you most of the time which makes it so infuriating that you turn people away from your position by being so damn sanctimonious the whole time. The idea that people might validly have different opinions to you - or might even be more expert in an area than you - just doesn't seem to enter into it.
quote:That goes for everyone else in the world as well. Leo is the teacher and the other few billion of us are the pupils: expected to sit down, shut up, and regard every opinion that comes out of his mouth as if it was the very Word of God.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
To him we're all his pupils to receive his pedagogic pearls of wisdom.
quote:I often wonder what you are like in real life. You seem very threatened by ideas that are new to you and very dogmatic about what you consider to be the truth.
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:I'm sorry, leo, but there is so much wrong with this I don't even know where to begin. "Professional"? You're professionally qualified - by whom, and for what fee? - to give spiritual direction to people? In what capacity? Posing as a Christian minister? I mean, WTF? And don't give me bullshit dodges about dodgy Jesuits - that's nothing to the point, as I'm sure you must realise.
Originally posted by leo on the Inclusive Church thread in Eccles:
quote:My spiritual director hat is worn for anyone who comes to be - I am not, and should not be, becauise it is unprofessional, be an advocate for any one church or religion.
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:So Buddhism's good enough for them, but not for you? Or do you just not think that Christianity has any unique recommendation over Buddhism full stop? In which case, what are you doing representing it as a lay minister?
Originally posted by leo:
I'd go as far as to advise LGBTs to stay away from all churches unless they have a very strong faith. Buddhism is far more attractive.
Which is better - a toxic church or a different spiritual path where a person might flourish?
If you are all that you say you are, you may have an enormous influence over other people's - potentially very vulnerable people's - spiritual welfare. Sort yourself out before you risk fucking anyone else up. Seriously. This sort of thing isn't a game or a self-adequacy exercise. Please - think very carefully about what you're doing.
quote:Spiritual Direction and the Gay Person - James Empereur, SJ
: When I suggest that the director help them reconnect with their religious roots I am not implying that the director encourage them to go to church. So many gay men and women have suffered because of the homophobia of their church that there is little possibility of a reconnection here. In fact, it might be destructive for them to try to do so....[ because they have internalised church teaching] so many gay people carry in their very skin and tissues a kind of self-hatred, a shame of their sexual desires, and the kind of alienation from family, society and church which leads to alienation from God.
quote:Well ISTM that you missed Chesterbelloc's point. It's one thing to avoid suggesting someone reconnects with a church which they find to be toxic, it's a very different thing to suggest, as you appear to be doing, that they connect with Buddhism instead, unless, perhaps, they are coming to you as an interfaith spiritual director.
Originally posted by leo:
The answers were directly to Chesterbelloc above and to another of his in Eccles.
He seems to be obsessed with issues of authority (presumably because he hasn't internalised his yet and needs others to tell him what to think).
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The issue of toxic church is endorsed by the Jesuit with a doctorate and many highly regarded university and cathedral posts under his belt - yet you know better as a recently converted RC.
The qualifications for SD vary - in my case a two-year course.
I am with my guru, Fr. Ken Leech,
quote:Projection, m'lud!
Originally posted by leo:
He seems to be obsessed with issues of authority (presumably because he hasn't internalised his yet and needs others to tell him what to think).
quote:Paolo? Is that you?
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
It's also an old-fashioned belief in teaching he's modelling here: that the students are empty vessels to be filled with the teacher's knowledge, not people to be enabled to access knowledge and understanding as the current OFSTED guidelines would suggest.
quote:The irony! it burns! AUGHAUGHAUGH!
Originally posted by leo:
You seem very threatened by ideas that are new to you and very dogmatic about what you consider to be the truth.
quote:Exactly. And it's as ironic as the post mousethief notes, as leo is forever treating the rest of us as students at his feet in need of his authoritative instruction.
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The issue of toxic church is endorsed by the Jesuit with a doctorate and many highly regarded university and cathedral posts under his belt - yet you know better as a recently converted RC.
The qualifications for SD vary - in my case a two-year course.
I am with my guru, Fr. Ken Leech,quote:Projection, m'lud!
Originally posted by leo:
He seems to be obsessed with issues of authority (presumably because he hasn't internalised his yet and needs others to tell him what to think).
quote:Mmmmm I wonder what Ken Leech thinks of you especially your use of "guru?"
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]I am with my guru, Fr. Ken Leech, in regarding any SD who charges a fee as being 'a charlatan'.
quote:1. Well, like other people, some of them are. It all depends on what they're writing about. Dodgy inherently? Nope.
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]
1. Why do you regard Jesuits as 'dodgy'? Do you not accept the authority of the current, Jesuit, Pope?
2. The issue of toxic church is endorsed by the Jesuit with a doctorate and many highly regarded university and cathedral posts under his belt -
quote:He's a devout Marxist, and wouldn't convert to any religion that would accept him as an adherent.
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I'm surprised he didn't recommend Islam, as they also seem to be able to do no wrong in his eyes.
He seems to be able to see fault only in Christianity, I often wonder why he doesn't convert to a different religion?
quote:SD is not about a product.
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's like a salesman who doesn't believe in his own product.
I suppose there could be some cunning reverse psychology involved: wow, this guy is HONEST! I can obviously believe him, he's sincere!
And then as the next step you've signed them up to donate to your personal side venture. Very clever.
quote:You are taking a word (guru) too literally. I have known Ken for many years and know exactly where he stands on that.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:Mmmmm I wonder what Ken Leech thinks of you especially your use of "guru?"
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]I am with my guru, Fr. Ken Leech, in regarding any SD who charges a fee as being 'a charlatan'.
Ken Leech has always taken strenuous steps to avoid this kind of hero worship - sadly, in your case the spiritual direction hasn't worked, has it?
quote:This may come as news to you leo, but you can't rely on your own understanding of a word, unless you want to be regarded as some kind of Humpty Dumpty.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:You are taking a word (guru) too literally. I have known Ken for many years and know exactly where he stands on that.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:Mmmmm I wonder what Ken Leech thinks of you especially your use of "guru?"
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]I am with my guru, Fr. Ken Leech, in regarding any SD who charges a fee as being 'a charlatan'.
Ken Leech has always taken strenuous steps to avoid this kind of hero worship - sadly, in your case the spiritual direction hasn't worked, has it?
quote:SDs don't 'suggest' - they might resource and they/we certainly work in an interfaith 'market.
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:Well ISTM that you missed Chesterbelloc's point. It's one thing to avoid suggesting someone reconnects with a church which they find to be toxic, it's a very different thing to suggest, as you appear to be doing, that they connect with Buddhism instead, unless, perhaps, they are coming to you as an interfaith spiritual director.
Originally posted by leo:
The answers were directly to Chesterbelloc above and to another of his in Eccles.
He seems to be obsessed with issues of authority (presumably because he hasn't internalised his yet and needs others to tell him what to think).
quote:You can read many of them in my two blogs and decide for yourself. The fact that they are mostly preached in a university chaplaincy church doesn't mean that they have to be academic papers. Indeed, preaching is not the same as delivering a paper.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:1. Well, like other people, some of them are. It all depends on what they're writing about. Dodgy inherently? Nope.
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]
1. Why do you regard Jesuits as 'dodgy'? Do you not accept the authority of the current, Jesuit, Pope?
2. The issue of toxic church is endorsed by the Jesuit with a doctorate and many highly regarded university and cathedral posts under his belt -
2. We're not impressed by you parading your latest reading list, Leo.
3. Get out of role and off your high horse for once. Stop playing teacher and some people might actually listen. Goodness only knows what your sermons must be like but perhaps they resonate with the intelligentsia and the many PhD's (as you have told us before) in your church.
quote:Of course, projection works both ways. Every time Chesterbelloc weighs into Hell 'against' me, on four separate occasions, regardless of the topic, he has the same concern, that i am somehow damaging vulnerable people. Apart from that being unfounded, I might wonder what projection is going on from him, what his vulnerabilities are etc.
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The issue of toxic church is endorsed by the Jesuit with a doctorate and many highly regarded university and cathedral posts under his belt - yet you know better as a recently converted RC.
The qualifications for SD vary - in my case a two-year course.
I am with my guru, Fr. Ken Leech,quote:Projection, m'lud!
Originally posted by leo:
He seems to be obsessed with issues of authority (presumably because he hasn't internalised his yet and needs others to tell him what to think).
quote:The link you provided is not about CCJ. it is about ICCJ - in my opinion a far more exciting and dynamic organisation, but not CCJ.
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
It's not so much the tone of statements presented as 'fact' that irritate me, it's the merciless mauling you get when you say something he thinks is not correct. As an example, a year or two ago he was going on about CCJ (Council for Christians and Jews) and as a passing comment I relating my interactions (as someone who was trying to co-ordinate a city group in the UK) at the moment when the dialogue was being opened up to Islam and the debates initiated regarding the change of name to Council for Christians, Muslims and Jews. (see here ; the last point in 'recent activities').
quote:If that were true, then i would have been unable to teach secondary. Level 4 (average 11yo) tends to be about 'facts'. Anything beyond that - up to Level 8 and EP required pupils/students to think for themselves and evaluate.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
It's also an old-fashioned belief in teaching he's modelling here: that the students are empty vessels to be filled with the teacher's knowledge, not people to be enabled to access knowledge and understanding as the current OFSTED guidelines would suggest.
quote:I suspect you didn't intend how you're making yourself sound with this paragraph. Putting aside your not quite getting the concept of projection, your reaction to his concerns here leads me to share them.
Originally posted by leo:
Of course, projection works both ways. Every time Chesterbelloc weighs into Hell 'against' me, on four separate occasions, regardless of the topic, he has the same concern, that i am somehow damaging vulnerable people. Apart from that being unfounded, I might wonder what projection is going on from him, what his vulnerabilities are etc.
quote:If it's non-directive, I suggest you stop directing people to avoid the church and be Buddhist.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:SD is not about a product.
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's like a salesman who doesn't believe in his own product.
I suppose there could be some cunning reverse psychology involved: wow, this guy is HONEST! I can obviously believe him, he's sincere!
And then as the next step you've signed them up to donate to your personal side venture. Very clever.
It is non-directive, a listening ministry which seeks to avoid asking leading questions or short-circuiting the directee coming to her own conclusions.
Spirituality as a product is something I associate with evangelical mega-churches.
quote:You're quoting this from 'A Ruach Journey' I presume? At least you have learnt from past mistakes in quoting verbatim.
....non-directive, a listening ministry which seeks to avoid asking leading questions or short-circuiting the directee coming to her own conclusions....
quote:...and they haven't discovered yet what the majority opinion among Buddhists is in regard to homosexuality; let alone the place of women?
I have dealt with quite a few who already go to Buddhist meditation sessions alongside or instead of church.
quote:ICCJ is the umbrella organisation, you twit; of which CCJ is a member. Yet again you demonstrate your ignorance.
The link you provided is not about CCJ. it is about ICCJ - in my opinion a far more exciting and dynamic organisation, but not CCJ.
quote:It wasn't there to impress you or anyone else. it was to show chesterbelloc that the RCC has a wider viewepoint than his very narrow knowledge as a recent convent.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
We're not impressed by you parading your latest reading list, Leo.
quote:Never heard of ruach... so not quoting it. Could, of course, be that we are both quoting the concensus view.
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
You're quoting this from 'A Ruach Journey' I presume?
...and they haven't discovered yet what the majority opinion among Buddhists is in regard to homosexuality; let alone the place of women?
ICCJ is the umbrella organisation, you twit; of which CCJ is a member. Yet again you demonstrate your ignorance.
quote:Most SDs dislike the word 'direction' (its origins being from a different age before modern psychological understandings) and prefer 'spiritual companion', 'guide', 'soul friend.'
Originally posted by Pommie Mick:
Spiritual direction is non-directive? That makes sense.
quote:That's like encouraging an abused wife to stay in her marriage.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:If it's non-directive, I suggest you stop directing people to avoid the church and be Buddhist.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:SD is not about a product.
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's like a salesman who doesn't believe in his own product.
I suppose there could be some cunning reverse psychology involved: wow, this guy is HONEST! I can obviously believe him, he's sincere!
And then as the next step you've signed them up to donate to your personal side venture. Very clever.
It is non-directive, a listening ministry which seeks to avoid asking leading questions or short-circuiting the directee coming to her own conclusions.
Spirituality as a product is something I associate with evangelical mega-churches.
quote:Someone counselling an abused wife might say 'you should leave your husband'. But I doubt they'd then say 'you should then shack up with Mr Dharma down the road.'
Originally posted by leo:
quote:That's like encouraging an abused wife to stay in her marriage.
If it's non-directive, I suggest you stop directing people to avoid the church and be Buddhist.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:leo. Chesterbelloc is secretly, painfully and desperately in love with you. Haven't you figured that out yet?
Originally posted by leo:
Of course, projection works both ways. Every time Chesterbelloc weighs into Hell 'against' me, on four separate occasions, regardless of the topic, he has the same concern, that i am somehow damaging vulnerable people. Apart from that being unfounded, I might wonder what projection is going on from him, what his vulnerabilities are etc.
quote:LOL - bit too immature, dogmatic and right-wing for me. His avatar is quite repellent too.
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:leo. Chesterbelloc is secretly, painfully and desperately in love with you. Haven't you figured that out yet?
Originally posted by leo:
Of course, projection works both ways. Every time Chesterbelloc weighs into Hell 'against' me, on four separate occasions, regardless of the topic, he has the same concern, that i am somehow damaging vulnerable people. Apart from that being unfounded, I might wonder what projection is going on from him, what his vulnerabilities are etc.
quote:Not really, Leo.
Originally posted by leo:
Of course, projection works both ways.
quote:I am not sure what you are describing, but it is not projection, imo.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Why is projection a one-way street? I would say that two people always make unconscious projections on each other. Normally, it's not a problem, and can in fact facilitate intimacy.
quote:Totally agree, which is why SDs have to be in direction, should have done a 40 day retreat and, ideally, psychotherapy.
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
Imo, to be a good spiritual director to anyone, it is very important to be aware of one's own inadequacies, one's own issues first, and to be particularly careful not to project them away. A good SD needs to be aware of, and own his or her own problems.
quote:Now that we've talled the word count, how about a score for post quality?
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm late to the party. But from the last ten posts or so it looks like:
leo 1000
the rest of you losers 0
quote:And the church may be a wonderful institution, but who wants to live in an institution?
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:He's a devout Marxist, and wouldn't convert to any religion that would accept him as an adherent.
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I'm surprised he didn't recommend Islam, as they also seem to be able to do no wrong in his eyes.
He seems to be able to see fault only in Christianity, I often wonder why he doesn't convert to a different religion?
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:Oh, look, Evensong is sticking up for the underdog without really understanding what's going on. Must be a day ending in Y. No homework tonight then?
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm late to the party. But from the last ten posts or so it looks like:
leo 1000
the rest of you losers 0
quote:The last two are quite difficult to achieve in practice, for people with busy lives and/or family responsibilities, not to mention lack of funds. It would rule out me and most of my colleagues in our SD team.
Originally posted by leo:
SDs have to be in direction, should have done a 40 day retreat and, ideally, psychotherapy.
quote:Well, we are obviously using the term in different ways. I was trained in psychoanalytic therapy, and the term 'projection' is also used of positive things, which leads to idealization. Hence, falling in love often involves huge amounts of mutual projection, which is actually very beneficial. Eventually, these projections fade, and then the real challenges begin. Basically, the stuff which you admire in others, can be withdrawn, and owned by oneself.
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
quote:I am not sure what you are describing, but it is not projection, imo.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Why is projection a one-way street? I would say that two people always make unconscious projections on each other. Normally, it's not a problem, and can in fact facilitate intimacy.
Projection involves my putting that which is inadequate within me onto you, and despising you for it. It is about problems with the self, and it is not done consciously.
It is also not a normal feature of relationships; we do not all go around projecting on one another all the time. It is a highly dysfunctional behaviour, and it does not facilitate intimacy, it is always abusive.
It is possible for more than one person to engage in this behaviour at once, but each person is responding to what is within themselves. It is nothing to do with the other person at all; they are very much a blank or unknown, upon which the failings are projected. Intimacy calls for a certain mutual knowledge of the other. Projection does not allow for intimacy at all.
Transference is to do with the other person, and it can bounce back and forth; it is far more complex. When you get an interplay of complicated mixing of relationships, it is far more likely to be transference than simply projection.
quote:Next year, look out for our flag and tick your I-Spy book.
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I saw a little bit of this year's Pride march in London. I remember seeing some gay Christian groups and a Moslem group marching. Don't remember seeing any Buddhists though...
quote:In other words, your suggestion to avoid the church and try Buddhism is poorly thought out.
Originally posted by leo:
FWBO is pro-LGBT and pro-women - 'The majority' of Buddhists may be homophobic, just as the majority of Christians are homophobic.
quote:Lots. But I"m tired of being a good girl. I figured my gargantuan halo needed a bit of tarnishing so I headed for the ship.
Originally posted by mousethief:
No homework tonight then?
quote:Were you ever? Now that must have been interesting: perfection!
Originally posted by Evensong:
[QUOTE]I"m tired of being a good girl.
quote:There ought to be a version of Godwin's Law about it, but I can't work out which way it should be formulated:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Oh, look, Evensong is sticking up for the underdog without really understanding what's going on. Must be a day ending in Y. No homework tonight then?
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm late to the party. But from the last ten posts or so it looks like:
leo 1000
the rest of you losers 0
quote:In your analogy, I assume the abusive husband is the homophobic church you refer to. But where is Jesus, the person, in your analogy?
Originally posted by leo:
quote:That's like encouraging an abused wife to stay in her marriage.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:If it's non-directive, I suggest you stop directing people to avoid the church and be Buddhist.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:SD is not about a product.
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's like a salesman who doesn't believe in his own product.
I suppose there could be some cunning reverse psychology involved: wow, this guy is HONEST! I can obviously believe him, he's sincere!
And then as the next step you've signed them up to donate to your personal side venture. Very clever.
It is non-directive, a listening ministry which seeks to avoid asking leading questions or short-circuiting the directee coming to her own conclusions.
Spirituality as a product is something I associate with evangelical mega-churches.
quote:That's a brilliant idea!
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Maybe in the interests of the Hellhosts' sanity, we could adopt and adapt the old Usenet tradition, and say that whenever Evensong posts in support of someone in Hell, the thread is instantly over, and that person loses the argument.
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
quote:Perfection thy name is Evensong?
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:Were you ever? Now that must have been interesting: perfection!
Originally posted by Evensong:
[QUOTE]I"m tired of being a good girl.
quote:Yes but if the husband is squatting in the marital home and refusing eviction, it is only sensible to provide a safe refuge for the abused wife.
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
In your analogy, I assume the abusive husband is the homophobic church you refer to. But where is Jesus, the person, in your analogy?
Jesus is the woman's home and it is her abusive husband who should be evicted and placed under a restraining order.
quote:To put the record straight, different SD courses have different entrance requirements but I suspect all are flexible and are more concerned with the life experience and maturity of the applicant than with rules.
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:The last two are quite difficult to achieve in practice, for people with busy lives and/or family responsibilities, not to mention lack of funds. It would rule out me and most of my colleagues in our SD team.
Originally posted by leo:
SDs have to be in direction, should have done a 40 day retreat and, ideally, psychotherapy.
quote:Don't flatter yourself, leo. I have no wish rubbish 'all that you stand for.I wish to rubbish you. You see, it is personal. It's entirely personal.
Originally posted by leo:
Before it does, I note that the two people who seek to rubbish all that I stand for, S. Bacchus and Chesterbelloc, seem to have been too cowardly to respond to my refutations of what they say.
quote:that's it. Today I'm petitioning Simon to rename the Ship "Nerds With Too Much Time On Their Hands".
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
I find you and your posting style to be arrogant, bathetic, cantankerous, dishonest, emetic, fraudulent, gaseous, hypocritical, inconsistent, jejune, kakistocratic, lugubrious, magniloquent, nullifidian, obstreperous, pseudo-intellectual, quacksalverous, reductionist, school-marmy, tumid, ultracrepidarian, vacuous, witless, xenomaniacal, yellow-livered, and zabernistic.
quote:Which shows that you have no answer to the question I posed to you and merely a malevolent and immature personality.
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
quote:Don't flatter yourself, leo. I have no wish rubbish 'all that you stand for.I wish to rubbish you. You see, it is personal. It's entirely personal.
Originally posted by leo:
Before it does, I note that the two people who seek to rubbish all that I stand for, S. Bacchus and Chesterbelloc, seem to have been too cowardly to respond to my refutations of what they say.
I find you and your posting style to be arrogant, bathetic, cantankerous, dishonest, emetic, fraudulent, gaseous, hypocritical, inconsistent, jejune, kakistocratic, lugubrious, magniloquent, nullifidian, obstreperous, pseudo-intellectual, quacksalverous, reductionist, school-marmy, tumid, ultracrepidarian, vacuous, witless, xenomaniacal, yellow-livered, and zabernistic.
And, trust me, I could very well go on. I don't disagree with 'all that you stand for'. It would be easier if I did. I generally agree with you, and I'm ashamed to have someone like you on my side. You are, as you rejoice in reminding us, a pensioner. Isn't it time that you grew up?
quote:I am not on the side of those who, in their 20s, rubbish the experience of those LGBTs who were alive before you were born and who experience hatred from the church - some of them committed suicide. There is such a thing as brotherhood/sisterhood. Even the present Pope, hardly a liberal, admits that the Church has got things wrong/out of proportion.
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
I generally agree with you, and I'm ashamed to have someone like you on my side. You are, as you rejoice in reminding us, a pensioner. Isn't it time that you grew up?
quote:What question? You haven't asked a question anywhere on this thread. Just to be sure, I went through and read all of your posts. Jesus, that was a waste of time.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:Which shows that you have no answer to the question I posed to you and merely a malevolent and immature personality.
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
quote:Don't flatter yourself, leo. I have no wish rubbish 'all that you stand for.I wish to rubbish you. You see, it is personal. It's entirely personal.
Originally posted by leo:
Before it does, I note that the two people who seek to rubbish all that I stand for, S. Bacchus and Chesterbelloc, seem to have been too cowardly to respond to my refutations of what they say.
I find you and your posting style to be arrogant, bathetic, cantankerous, dishonest, emetic, fraudulent, gaseous, hypocritical, inconsistent, jejune, kakistocratic, lugubrious, magniloquent, nullifidian, obstreperous, pseudo-intellectual, quacksalverous, reductionist, school-marmy, tumid, ultracrepidarian, vacuous, witless, xenomaniacal, yellow-livered, and zabernistic.
And, trust me, I could very well go on. I don't disagree with 'all that you stand for'. It would be easier if I did. I generally agree with you, and I'm ashamed to have someone like you on my side. You are, as you rejoice in reminding us, a pensioner. Isn't it time that you grew up?
quote:There's a difference between acknowledging the wrongs in church history and/or current practice, and telling people that they'd be better off outside the Church. The former is inclusive, the latter exclusive. Oh, and by the way, I know plenty of older LGBT Christians, including people with academic specialisms in LGBT expressions of Christianity. They'd all think that you're wrong, too.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:I am not on the side of those who, in their 20s, rubbish the experience of those LGBTs who were alive before you were born and who experience hatred from the church - some of them committed suicide. There is such a thing as brotherhood/sisterhood. Even the present Pope, hardly a liberal, admits that the Church has got things wrong/out of proportion.
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
I generally agree with you, and I'm ashamed to have someone like you on my side. You are, as you rejoice in reminding us, a pensioner. Isn't it time that you grew up?
quote:When you're doing my job so comprehensively for me with practically every post you emit, where's the need? Exhibit A. If I respond, I'm hounding you; if I don't I'm cowardly.
Originally posted by leo:
I note that the two people who seek to rubbish all that I stand for, S. Bacchus and Chesterbelloc, seem to have been too cowardly to respond to my refutations of what they say.
quote:Depends on how you understand the position of the Church.
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
There's a difference between acknowledging the wrongs in church history and/or current practice, and telling people that they'd be better off outside the Church. The former is inclusive, the latter exclusive.
quote:What all of them? Really? Well, I guess you know different older LGBT people from the ones I know/knew.
Oh, and by the way, I know plenty of older LGBT Christians, including people with academic specialisms in LGBT expressions of Christianity. They'd all think that you're wrong, too.
quote:Oh please, none of the (poor) qualities you cite are exactly in short supply in either the Church or the teaching profession.
Oh, and by the way, you're also being censorious, sanctimonious, self-righteous and supercilious. What really baffles me is how someone with your combination of distinctly limited intellectual gifts, limited capacity for empathy, and total lack of humility managed to become a teacher, let alone a licensed lay minister or a spiritual director.
quote:Bum link - sorry about that. This is Exhibit A.
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
When you're doing my job so comprehensively for me with practically every post you emit, where's the need? Exhibit A. If I respond, I'm hounding you; if I don't I'm cowardly.
quote:Please please post a picture of you with your halo
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:Perfection thy name is Evensong?
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:Were you ever? Now that must have been interesting: perfection!
Originally posted by Evensong:
[QUOTE]I"m tired of being a good girl.
I'm up with that. Seems legit.
quote:Not at all related to your long term self-professed attempt to undermine the function and purpose of Hell on SoF ?
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:That's a brilliant idea!
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Maybe in the interests of the Hellhosts' sanity, we could adopt and adapt the old Usenet tradition, and say that whenever Evensong posts in support of someone in Hell, the thread is instantly over, and that person loses the argument.
quote:I did once. But it got taken down.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Please please post a picture of you with your halo
quote:Sticking up for one of the ship's (fairly regular) underdogs in Hell (because I like the guy) is hardly undermining the function and purpose of Hell. It's solidarity because I know how awful it feels sometimes.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Not at all related to your long term self-professed attempt to undermine the function and purpose of Hell on SoF ?
) reputation and I end up making things worse for them. Can't win.quote:Apologies - it was not a question but the lack of response to refutations to Chesterbelloc, not to you.
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
What question? You haven't asked a question anywhere on this thread. Just to be sure.
quote:Not sure where you are coming from here but the kind of 'mentoring' i was referring to is used as an alternative to spiritual direction. I am thinking of a certain seminary that sends its students to someone who must bne no older that late-30s, must be ordained, and, so i hear frequently, discusses practical problems in ministry with a sort of 'pull yourself together.' mentality. It deals with the ordinand as a function rather than as a whole person.
Originally posted by Pommie Mick:
'Mentoring' is damaging?
History disagrees with you Leo.
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
I wish to rubbish you. You see, it is personal. It's entirely personal.
I find you and your posting style to be arrogant, bathetic, cantankerous, dishonest, emetic, fraudulent, gaseous, hypocritical, inconsistent, jejune, kakistocratic, lugubrious, magniloquent, nullifidian, obstreperous, pseudo-intellectual, quacksalverous, reductionist, school-marmy, tumid, ultracrepidarian, vacuous, witless, xenomaniacal, yellow-livered, and zabernistic.
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
Oh, and by the way, you're also being censorious, sanctimonious, self-righteous and supercilious. What really baffles me is how someone with your combination of distinctly limited intellectual gifts, limited capacity for empathy, and total lack of humility managed to become a teacher, let alone a licensed lay minister or a spiritual director.
quote:Haters gonna hate.
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
By the way, I also think that you're asinine, boring, curmudgeonly, fuck-witted, illiterate, joyless, pedantic, pompous, self-indulgent, smug, snobbish, and uncritical. I was jut limiting myself to 26 of your most obvious qualities in my previous list.
quote:I sort of have a picture in my head of what Leo looks like. Probably has no basis in reality but I've got one. Now, thanks to your post, I have a picture in my head of Leo driving down the highway in an Impala with 20 inch blade rims.
originally posted by Evensong:
Haters gonna hate.
quote:Ha, ha! I don't drive - never have - if my impatience with a supermarket trolley is any guide, I'd be dead and/or kill others within minutes of getting behind a wheel.
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I sort of have a picture in my head of what Leo looks like. Probably has no basis in reality but I've got one. Now, thanks to your post, I have a picture in my head of Leo driving down the highway in an Impala with 20 inch blade rims.
quote:I should know better than this by now - I kind of do. But. Help me out a little, leo - what precisely do you suppose yourself to have "refuted"? Please show your workings.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:Apologies - it was not a question but the lack of response to refutations to Chesterbelloc, not to you.
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
What question? You haven't asked a question anywhere on this thread. Just to be sure.
And he has said something to the extent that he can't be bothered - which i take to mean that he doesn't know the answer and/or doesn't want to admit that he may be mistaken.
quote:Or, people who have been jerked around, when given the chance, are going to register their objections, sometimes forcefully.
Originally posted by Evensong:
Haters gonna hate.
quote:'Workings'? You some kind of sums teacher?
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:I should know better than this by now - I kind of do. But. Help me out a little, leo - what precisely do you suppose yourself to have "refuted"? Please show your workings.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:Apologies - it was not a question but the lack of response to refutations to Chesterbelloc, not to you.
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
What question? You haven't asked a question anywhere on this thread. Just to be sure.
And he has said something to the extent that he can't be bothered - which i take to mean that he doesn't know the answer and/or doesn't want to admit that he may be mistaken.
quote:Leo, if I were gay and you were the last man on the planet, I wouldn't want to be in a romantic relationship with you. It pains me to be in same worldwide communion as you. You keep enticing me with claims that you will follow all of your many friends and swim the Tiber but you never do. Perhaps, you'll take you own advice and leave Christianity for Buddhism.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:Ha, ha! I don't drive - never have - if my impatience with a supermarket trolley is any guide, I'd be dead and/or kill others within minutes of getting behind a wheel.
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I sort of have a picture in my head of what Leo looks like. Probably has no basis in reality but I've got one. Now, thanks to your post, I have a picture in my head of Leo driving down the highway in an Impala with 20 inch blade rims.
I could always send you a photo! But i think you are already spoken for.
quote:And leo is neither player nor baller and certainly not a shot caller.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Or, people who have been jerked around, when given the chance, are going to register their objections, sometimes forcefully.
Originally posted by Evensong:
Haters gonna hate.
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:'Workings'? You some kind of sums teacher?
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
I should know better than this by now - I kind of do. But. Help me out a little, leo - what precisely do you suppose yourself to have "refuted"? Please show your workings.
quote:Sadly, as the first couple of pages of this thread seem to have disappeared into the ether - at least, they have for me - I can't quote from them. But then I probably wasn't going to anyway.
Originally posted by leo:
I quoted three Jesuits who showed a wider, more generous RC view that yours - but you dismiss Jesuits. even those with a nihil obstat.
quote:LOL, it is actually Dutch. Our spelling is kwakzalver. It is a fake healer, the kind that sells 'potions that cure everything' from a carriage in the town's square.
The5thMary: I have not a fucking clue what "quacksalverous" means (a salivating duck?) but I love it! What a great word! Damn, I love The Ship!
quote:I was looking for the English word. Thank you.
Lyda*Rose: Ah. A snake oil merchant.
quote:I don't suppose you have the key to dealing with Evensong's posts, do you?
Originally posted by Zach82:
The key to dealing with Leo's posts is to realize that, though he always posts with an authoritative tone, he actually never has anything interesting to say. He's like the internet made incarnate that way.
quote:The scroll bar.
Originally posted by orfeo:
I don't suppose you have the key to dealing with Evensong's posts, do you?
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
quote:The key? Admit your feelings of personal inadequacy in the face of my consummate fabulosity. You then come to a place of peace and healing. From that point on there is the potential for you to grow into the full stature of Evensong one day (yes - even you).
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:I don't suppose you have the key to dealing with Evensong's posts, do you?
Originally posted by Zach82:
The key to dealing with Leo's posts is to realize that, though he always posts with an authoritative tone, he actually never has anything interesting to say. He's like the internet made incarnate that way.
quote:You're kind the same as Leo, but without the authoritative tone. But you are a usual benchmark. If I agree with you, I'm probably wrong. Consummate fabulosity my arse!
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:The key? Admit your feelings of personal inadequacy in the face of my consummate fabulosity. You then come to a place of peace and healing. From that point on there is the potential for you to grow into the full stature of Evensong one day (yes - even you).
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:I don't suppose you have the key to dealing with Evensong's posts, do you?
Originally posted by Zach82:
The key to dealing with Leo's posts is to realize that, though he always posts with an authoritative tone, he actually never has anything interesting to say. He's like the internet made incarnate that way.
quote:I outgrew you somewhere around my 9th birthday.
Originally posted by Evensong:
From that point on there is the potential for you to grow into the full stature of Evensong one day (yes - even you).
quote:Evensong leaves herself open to the barbs she gets on purpose. She thrives on negative attention. Ignore her.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:I don't suppose you have the key to dealing with Evensong's posts, do you?
Originally posted by Zach82:
The key to dealing with Leo's posts is to realize that, though he always posts with an authoritative tone, he actually never has anything interesting to say. He's like the internet made incarnate that way.
quote:Oh is that how you justify your ignoring me on the purg "A Church" thread? I thought it was because I was pointing out the holes in your vacuous understanding of sacramental theology and you knew you were talking shit so were ignoring me.
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:Evensong leaves herself open to the barbs she gets on purpose. She thrives on negative attention. Ignore her.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:I don't suppose you have the key to dealing with Evensong's posts, do you?
Originally posted by Zach82:
The key to dealing with Leo's posts is to realize that, though he always posts with an authoritative tone, he actually never has anything interesting to say. He's like the internet made incarnate that way.
quote:Light dawns.
Originally posted by Evensong:
Silly me.
quote:I never doubted you on this, trust me.
Originally posted by Zach82:
See what I mean?
quote:No.
Originally posted by Zach82:
See what I mean?
quote:He does, read what he said.
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:No.
Originally posted by Zach82:
See what I mean?
Or is that you don't understand sarcasm?
That would make sense actually considering how anal you are in some respects
quote:Egocentricity ,in it's purest form, can indeed be found to be a beautiful thing .
Originally posted by Evensong:
The key? Admit your feelings of personal inadequacy in the face of my consummate fabulosity. You then come to a place of peace and healing. From that point on there is the potential for you to grow into the full stature of Evensong one day (yes - even you).
quote:Huh?
Originally posted by balaam:
He does, read what he said.
Do you?
quote:Please don't tell me you took that seriously rolyn.
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:Egocentricity ,in it's purest form, can indeed be found to be a beautiful thing .
Originally posted by Evensong:
The key? Admit your feelings of personal inadequacy in the face of my consummate fabulosity. You then come to a place of peace and healing. From that point on there is the potential for you to grow into the full stature of Evensong one day (yes - even you).
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
quote:This is rich coming from someone who seems to have a fairly deep need to make as many threads as possible into conversations about herself.
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'll give you your feelings of power. I guess you must need them.
quote:And... We know that they are "knowing, witty responses" because she tells us so.
Originally posted by orfeo:
It flows from there because you turn up and do the exact same thing again and again. It flows from there because you think the correct response is to give some kind of witty, knowing response with a twinkle in your eye.
quote:Correct.
Originally posted by Zach82:
And... We know that they are "knowing, witty responses" because she tells us so.
quote:Well yes. My way of dealing with stupidity is often via sarcasm or wit. Not my fault if they don't get it. I am who I am.
Originally posted by orfeo:
It flows from there because you turn up and do the exact same thing again and again. It flows from there because you think the correct response is to give some kind of witty, knowing response with a twinkle in your eye.
quote:Well like you, I've stopped caring about that ages ago in Hell.
Originally posted by orfeo:
It IS your fault if they don't get it, or at the very least your problem
quote:Now here boys and girls, is an excellent example of the pot calling the kettle black.
Originally posted by RooK:
None of which makes much difference for batshit insane poster children for the Dunning-Kruger effect.
quote:Oh, you are. Go on believing it. An open book. No one is pretending that their observations of you on this thread are any particular accomplishment of insight.
originally posted by Evensong:
I like to believe I'm more understandable on the rest of the ship.
quote:About 30 pounds.
...a good 4000 km from the SHO
quote:Canada!
If there were any significant architectural landmarks in Canada at all, I suppose we would all similarly link every Canadian to that one example of national brilliance.
quote:Then apologize to them.
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
As it is, all we can do is make jokes about how y'all fornicate with moose.
quote:Heavens. There must have been a sale on that colour of paint.
Originally posted by Zach82:
To be fair, the opera house in Perth is this baroque mess. Not really iconic.
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
[OPEN: The Sydney Opera House, in silhouette at sunrise.]
[DRAMATIC ZOOM - in on a lone figure wrapped in thin, sheer fabric blown in such a way that it both presses the fabric against them and causes the excess to seem to defy gravity.]
Evensong: [Turns head from chin held high, facing against the howling wind, to staring crazy-eyed directly into the camera.] "DESPERATION. The scent of reality not being as we insist it is, but we'll never admit it. DESPERATION."
[SMASH CUT: All black, with the outline of a uselessly-shaped bottle emblazoned with the label (DES∙PURR∙Ḁ∙SHUN) ]
[Flash disclaimer in nigh-unreadable size and font]
Harmful if ingested. Do not apply directly to posts, as general irritation may occur. Call your cleric or therapist if you suspect a dependency is forming. Not for use for people that have any sense of introspection or self-respect. Please post responsibly.
quote:Isn't it awful? It's a bit nicer inside. That isn't the Perth Opera House (which doesn't exist), but His Majesty's Theatre, so we tend to blame our colonial forbears for that one.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Heavens. There must have been a sale on that colour of paint.
Originally posted by Zach82:
To be fair, the opera house in Perth is this baroque mess. Not really iconic.
![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
quote:Good god! That is hideous. It's like someone designed a really ugly building, assembled it off site and then tried to airlift it in, but somehow it got dropped in upside down.
Originally posted by Zach82:
Indeed. Boston has got this soulless monstrosity perched in its middle. Just what was it trying to prove when it tore down a whole Victorian neighborhood to put that pile of crap up?
quote:I know, right? My wife even sneered at me for all my annoying laughter, and immediately picked it out as my "being an insufferable smartass" laugh. How she differentiates it from my "saw an old lady fall down" laugh, I cannot guess.
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Hilarious.
quote:So, you're probably not going to believe me when I suggest that I skewed the perception intentionally to make a point? Never mind - let's move on to the moose jokes.
Evensong is in Perth, a good 4000 km from the SHO.
quote:Fun fact: Moose kill more people every year than grizzly bears. Maybe there's a connection?
all we can do is make jokes about how y'all fornicate with moose.
quote:Like all modern buildings, people who think it ugly are philistines who don't realize that it is an architectural masterpiece that is free of the tyranny of pastiche and sensible floor plans.
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:Good god! That is hideous. It's like someone designed a really ugly building, assembled it off site and then tried to airlift it in, but somehow it got dropped in upside down.
Originally posted by Zach82:
Indeed. Boston has got this soulless monstrosity perched in its middle. Just what was it trying to prove when it tore down a whole Victorian neighborhood to put that pile of crap up?
A metaphor for American democracy, perhaps?
quote:I think that might be the first time I have really understood the fundamental philosophy that gripped architecture in Perth from the sixties onward.
Originally posted by Zach82:
Also, it's in the middle of a ginormous, sterile plaza devoid of trees, benches, fountains, or historical buildings that might obstruct your view of this firm's magnum opus.
quote:Now that just reminds me of old depictions of Perth.
What do you want, this hellish rat's nest of brick buildings and walkable streets that it replaced?
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
quote:Moose take the failure to stay and cuddle much more seriously?
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:Fun fact: Moose kill more people every year than grizzly bears. Maybe there's a connection?
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
[QUOTE]all we can do is make jokes about how y'all fornicate with moose.
quote:The plaza was designed as a place for rallies, etc. However, the surrounding buildings have the effect of turning it into a wind tunnel.
Originally posted by Zach82:
Also, it's in the middle of a ginormous, sterile plaza devoid of trees, benches, fountains, or historical buildings that might obstruct your view of this firm's magnum opus.
quote:Why do you assume that i am str8?
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Leo is representing the worst about allies - constantly making the conversation about how liberal and wonderful they are, when actually being an ally is about supporting minorities in the decisions they make themselves. As S Bacchus has pointed out, Leo, LGBTQ+ people are perfectly capable of standing up for ourselves, and we do it all the time. WE are the only people who should speak for us. I mean it's nice that you want to be an ally but not being LGBTQ+, it's not for you to speak on behalf of us.
quote:Because if you're not, you don't even take your OWN bloody advice.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:Why do you assume that i am str8?
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Leo is representing the worst about allies - constantly making the conversation about how liberal and wonderful they are, when actually being an ally is about supporting minorities in the decisions they make themselves. As S Bacchus has pointed out, Leo, LGBTQ+ people are perfectly capable of standing up for ourselves, and we do it all the time. WE are the only people who should speak for us. I mean it's nice that you want to be an ally but not being LGBTQ+, it's not for you to speak on behalf of us.
quote:And why would you assume that i haven't?
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:Because if you're not, you don't even take your OWN bloody advice.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:Why do you assume that i am str8?
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Leo is representing the worst about allies - constantly making the conversation about how liberal and wonderful they are, when actually being an ally is about supporting minorities in the decisions they make themselves. As S Bacchus has pointed out, Leo, LGBTQ+ people are perfectly capable of standing up for ourselves, and we do it all the time. WE are the only people who should speak for us. I mean it's nice that you want to be an ally but not being LGBTQ+, it's not for you to speak on behalf of us.
quote:Because your own experiences of being LGBTQ+ in the church are suspiciously absent. Are you straight or not?
Originally posted by leo:
quote:Why do you assume that i am str8?
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Leo is representing the worst about allies - constantly making the conversation about how liberal and wonderful they are, when actually being an ally is about supporting minorities in the decisions they make themselves. As S Bacchus has pointed out, Leo, LGBTQ+ people are perfectly capable of standing up for ourselves, and we do it all the time. WE are the only people who should speak for us. I mean it's nice that you want to be an ally but not being LGBTQ+, it's not for you to speak on behalf of us.
quote:Oh, FFS
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
OK, usually I try not to repost Hell snark, but if someone aimed an insult this creative at me, I can't help but think I would be a bit flattered.quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
[OPEN: The Sydney Opera House, in silhouette at sunrise.]
[DRAMATIC ZOOM - in on a lone figure wrapped in thin, sheer fabric blown in such a way that it both presses the fabric against them and causes the excess to seem to defy gravity.]
Evensong: [Turns head from chin held high, facing against the howling wind, to staring crazy-eyed directly into the camera.] "DESPERATION. The scent of reality not being as we insist it is, but we'll never admit it. DESPERATION."
[SMASH CUT: All black, with the outline of a uselessly-shaped bottle emblazoned with the label (DES∙PURR∙Ḁ∙SHUN) ]
[Flash disclaimer in nigh-unreadable size and font]
Harmful if ingested. Do not apply directly to posts, as general irritation may occur. Call your cleric or therapist if you suspect a dependency is forming. Not for use for people that have any sense of introspection or self-respect. Please post responsibly.
quote:We can all read, and some of us have to.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:And why would you assume that i haven't?
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:Because if you're not, you don't even take your OWN bloody advice.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:Why do you assume that i am str8?
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Leo is representing the worst about allies - constantly making the conversation about how liberal and wonderful they are, when actually being an ally is about supporting minorities in the decisions they make themselves. As S Bacchus has pointed out, Leo, LGBTQ+ people are perfectly capable of standing up for ourselves, and we do it all the time. WE are the only people who should speak for us. I mean it's nice that you want to be an ally but not being LGBTQ+, it's not for you to speak on behalf of us.
quote:Furthermore, are you now a Buddhist?
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:Because your own experiences of being LGBTQ+ in the church are suspiciously absent. Are you straight or not?
Originally posted by leo:
Why do you assume that i am str8?
quote:For what it's worth, I didn't. But for someone who is ever so concerned with LGBT issues, you're not exactly open about your personal experiences (talking about other people in vague terms to show how wonderfully pastoral you are doesn't count).
Originally posted by leo:
quote:Why do you assume that i am str8?
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Leo is representing the worst about allies - constantly making the conversation about how liberal and wonderful they are, when actually being an ally is about supporting minorities in the decisions they make themselves. As S Bacchus has pointed out, Leo, LGBTQ+ people are perfectly capable of standing up for ourselves, and we do it all the time. WE are the only people who should speak for us. I mean it's nice that you want to be an ally but not being LGBTQ+, it's not for you to speak on behalf of us.
quote:You're dead right. Poor old leo, more fortunate in so many ways than almost everybody who's ever lived: he so wants to feel some pain, until it boils up inside him and he wants to howl
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
That's just it. Leo very much wants to be in the position to shout, "You don't understand me. Check your privilege" at everyone he meets. Problem is he's a straight, white, male of a certain age who is a lay reader in the established church of a first world nation.
Leo is privileged and it irks him to no end. James Cone famously said white people must hate their whiteness. Leo has managed to hate not only his whiteness but every aspect of his identity. He would rather be the collective of bored art students Louise suspects him of being rather than who he actually is.
I minored in Psychology.
WHY WON'T YOU PERSECUTE ME? quote:BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T LEFT THE CHURCH TO BECOME A BUDDHIST YOU FREAKING IDIOT.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:And why would you assume that i haven't?
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:Because if you're not, you don't even take your OWN bloody advice.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:Why do you assume that i am str8?
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Leo is representing the worst about allies - constantly making the conversation about how liberal and wonderful they are, when actually being an ally is about supporting minorities in the decisions they make themselves. As S Bacchus has pointed out, Leo, LGBTQ+ people are perfectly capable of standing up for ourselves, and we do it all the time. WE are the only people who should speak for us. I mean it's nice that you want to be an ally but not being LGBTQ+, it's not for you to speak on behalf of us.
quote:There isn't a spare 'there'. The two 'theres' have different functions. If you're going to criticise someone else, at least make sure that you can parse a simple English sentences.
Originally posted by QLib:
[QB] Is anyone else maddened by the spare 'there' in the thread title? Few trivialities have bugged me so much since McCartney's "world in which we live in".
/QB]
quote:But the syntax isn't the same, because you moved the subject so that it splits the verb "be" from the auxiliary "shall", thereby creating a clumsy ambiguity about the function of the first "there"
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
quote:There isn't a spare 'there'. The two 'theres' have different functions. If you're going to criticise someone else, at least make sure that you can parse a simple English sentences.
Originally posted by QLib:
Is anyone else maddened by the spare 'there' in the thread title? Few trivialities have bugged me so much since McCartney's "world in which we live in".
Here, I'll make it easy by translating into English for semi-literate small children:
Peradventure there shall be = what if there is
Leo found there = Leo in that location.
Given that the syntax is exactly the same as the passage from Genesis to which it alludes, I don't see why this wasn't obvious.
