Thread: Fuck you, Horseman Bree, and the anti-Americanism you rode in on Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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from here
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
The rest of us would be quite happy with anything that slowed the rate of gun-smuggling into other countries, particularly Mexico and Canada.
Shoot each other in your country - OK by me...well, at least, you consented to the situation.
Why should we be forced to adopt your peculiar ideas? Every gun-owner I know around here is pretty firm on the ideas of licensing, training and control of one's weapon, and very scornful of the pathological addiction to flame-spewing fake-orgasmic* devices shown south of the border.
*I'm echoing the author Stephen King, who has the same disdain. Mainers have somewhat better sense.
No, I did NOT consent to this. Fuck you, and fuck you, and fuck you a third time. Stop painting all Americans as gun-sucking idiots. We do NOT all consent to the way things are now. Some of us are doing what we can to change things. Your anti-American, head-in-the-sand, microcephalic caterwauling is uncalled-for. Fuck you.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Yeah, that's pretty over-the-top ignorance. Like half of the US isn't screaming for gun control.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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Preach it, brother mousethief.
There are over 300 million people in the US, and Horseman Bree somehow thinks that every fucking one of us is in lock step, thinking exactly the same thing.
Posted by RooK (# 1852) on
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But it's sooooo much easier to simplify others into conveniently-labelled pigeon holes. At least, that's my excuse.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, that's pretty over-the-top ignorance. Like half of the US isn't screaming for gun control.
If half of the US is screaming for gun control and less than nothing happens, what does that say about the US?
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, that's pretty over-the-top ignorance. Like half of the US isn't screaming for gun control.
If half of the US is screaming for gun control and less than nothing happens, what does that say about the US?
That the GOP has gerrymandered their districts in such a way that they have to kowtow to the most extreme elements in their party or lose the next primary election.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
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It says that much of Congress is in the pockets of the NRA.
It says that some people are so barnacled to their interpretation of the 2nd Amendment and the American mythos that nothing can get through to them.
It says that (news flash) you've gotta have enough votes and support.
And as far as gun-smuggling, etc: I don't know the stats of who smuggles what where. But may I suggest that if your country is swamped with smuggled weapons, then:
a) someone there wants them;
b) find out who wants them and who's selling to them;
c) if horseflies are getting into your home, close the windows and the doors.
Yes, the US has been the Big Kid On The Block (tm) for a long time, though there are other big kids and more are stepping into the ring. God knows, the US gov't has done many horrible things, both at home and abroad, over more than 200 years. It's bullied, and overthrown governments, and done all sorts of secret and nasty things. But it's also done a lot of good, too. Not solely for good reasons--US interests definitely figure in, and I wish we'd be totally transparent about that. But people have received a lot of good from the US.
And I respectfully suggest that any country that's been a Major Player or a Major Newsmaker in the last 300 years or so needs to 'fess up about its own sins.
E.g., let any Major Player/Newsmaker country that's NEVER colonized, taken over someone's land, tormented indigenous people, raped the environment, and/or done Secret Nasty Stuff cast the first stone.
Mote, log...
Posted by Herrick (# 15226) on
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When the US hosts weekly gun massacres it is so easy for people like me overseas to just shake our heads in bemused disbelief and horror at American laws and customs. Another today in South Chicago I hear on the latest news.
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on
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Don't really notice any Democrats in power actually doing something about it either, beyond lip-service.
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
c) if horseflies are getting into your home, close the windows and the doors.
Irt flies, if they are getting into your home, it is actually better to open all the windows and doors, not close them.
Flies do not like to hang around in a draught, or to be in a clean environment. Assuming your home is even relatively clean, they will leave. If flies prefer your (ie anyone's) home to outside, then it is time to spring clean.
Irt guns, I suspect the issues involved are far too complex to be readily understood from the outside. In the UK we have very strict gun laws, and we still have mass shootings from time to time; we still have gang crime and murders. We have far fewer of either than the US, but the debate continues here, just as much as in the US, whenever a particularly nasty event happens.
One difference is that the gun lobby here (if indeed there is such a thing) is not particularly powerful. As a result we do not have the kind of arguments that seem to arise in the US (with apologies if I am oversimplifying them) to the effect that if more people had guns then mass shootings would not happen because someone would kill the shooter far more quickly, or that if teachers had guns then shooters in schools would not get away with killing children.
When the UK government wants to tighten gun laws it does so, and I am not aware of anyone campaigning for those tight gun laws to be loosened. They may well be on some level, but it is not high profile campaining, and there is certainly no widespread public move to support them.
When the US government wants to tighten gun laws it is clearly far harder for them to do so. At some point I think this tightening is inevitable, but perhaps it is more likely to be achievable by a Republican than by a Democrat President.
The 1689 Bill of Rights gave Englishmen the right to bear arms. At a later point it was decided this was not such a good idea. Laws can change.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689
[ 20. September 2013, 11:19: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Herrick:
When the US hosts weekly gun massacres it is so easy for people like me overseas to just shake our heads in bemused disbelief and horror at American laws and customs. Another today in South Chicago I hear on the latest news.
The US. . .all 300 million of us? As if we all are part of some Borg? . . .hosts weekly gun massacres. . . gosh, I didn't get my invitation.
Look, some of us are very angry about the gun situation here. We are angry that people have distorted the 2nd Amendment. We are angry that people buy into the notion that you need automatic weapons "to protect your family." We are angry that the NRA is one of biggest lobbies in Congress, convincing insecure politicians that they won't get elected again if they don't do what the NRA wants done (and the NRA has plenty of money to throw at elections).
We are angry and very saddened that mental health services don't catch up with people who feel they have no way out but to unlease violence on themselves or others. We are angry and saddened that background checks are portrayed as some socialist plot. If a person has a clean record, they have nothing to fear.
We are upset that fringe groups like the Tea Party are fear mongers which only makes the whole situation worse. Until the Tea Party finally implodes (and it will) they can cauase a lot of damage.
Until the NRA and its rabid stance is changed, they can cause a lot of damage.
There is blood on the hands of some, but not all.
From afar, it would seem that those of us who care about elinimating gun violence are doing nothing, but that's not true. It's hard to stand up to bought and paid for legislators (and don't tell me that good old capitalism and money in politics happens nowhere else in the world). It's hard to unsell the Big Sell to someone who has had nothing go right in his/her life and believes that someone out there is out to get him/her.
It really isn't all of us, folks. If someone has a good workable plan to help us defund the NRA and subvert (legally) their influence, we'd like to have you join our efforts. If someone has a workable plan to get rid of the underlying fear that owning a gun supposedly takes care of, we'd like to have you on board with us.
Until then, please don't compound our misery by blaming all of us for this--or making it seem that it is a part of a unified culture which doesn't exist in oour multicultural country.
Quite a few of us are working as hard as we can to change things--not just gun ownership, but the underlying issues that cause people to feel so backed up against the wall that they fire guns off into crowds.
We need support, not blame.
sabine
Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on
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Thank you for your concern.
You are frustrated, but at least are in the system.
We just have to live with the spillover without having any voice.
quote:
Pierre Elliot Trudeau originated the phrase in a speech in 1969 when he said, speaking of the U.S., that Canada’s relationship with the United States is like that of "a mouse in bed with an elephant…no matter how friendly the beast…one is affected by every twitch and grunt."
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on
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quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
Quite a few of us are working as hard as we can to change things--not just gun ownership, but the underlying issues that cause people to feel so backed up against the wall that they fire guns off into crowds.
We need support, not blame.
sabine
Those are very good points, imo.
I have recently been re-watching Amazing Grace, about the efforts of William Wilberforce to eliminate legal slavery throughout the British Empire. It took his whole life to do it, but he got there in the end, largely because of some lateral thinking among his supporters.
I am not at all knowlegeable enough to know how that lateral thinking might be applied in relation to the US gun laws, but the principles are sound; if only to tell us all never to give up on doing the right thing.
And you are perfectly right; the role of overseas friends is to support. It reminds me of a joke; well, not really a joke; an observation.
A man was lost, and stopped to ask for directions; 'Can you tell me the way to Dover?' he said.
The reply was, 'Oh, I wouldn't start from here if I were you!'
I think we are all a little too prone to tell other people this.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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Everry nation state has isues on which it is pretty clueless. Britain has a dire track record for recklessness, whether it's to do with booze, smoking, personal health, birth control, plus a widespread lack of ability to plan and organise finances.
Plenty of businesses cater for these markets and any decisive move to restrict these by a government of any colour is derided as nanny-statism or political correctness gone mad. For some reason it's fine to reduce the deficit by cutting welfare benefits but the idea of a price hike for booze and smokes is unthinkable.
Weird or what?
We've just got different ways of killing ourselves.
Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on
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I am grief stricken and saddened every time something like at the Navy Yard. The shooter showed all kinds of signs that he was seriously disturbed and yet he had every legal right to have a gun.
Incidents of someone getting shot happen all the time and pro gun types cite this as a reason to allow anyone to pack a gun at any time. That may seem logical to them, but reality speaks otherwise.
Guns are not a magical talisman that wards off evil by just being carried around. If that were the case the shooter would have been dead or jailed before he shot anyone. He did, you see, start that rampage in a military base where lots of people had guns and were trained to use them.
We all watch movies where the good guys seem able to stave off, or kill, all kinds of bad guys with a single pistol - even when the bad guys are armed to the teeth with automatic weapons. Some of imagine ourselves capable of the same sort of feats. Those people are called magical thinkers.
I have tried magical thinking myself and I am here to tell you that Christie Brinkley has yet to ask me to spend the night with her. Which tells you that it doesn't work; even over a long time period.
To those who suggest we change the law spit in one hand and wish in the other. The "law" is the second amendment to our Constitution. It is not, thankfully, easy to change our Constitution because if it was I shudder to think what that present crop of half wits in Congress would do to it.
The damn thing was written at a different time and under circumstances that are far different than our world today. People in the countryside had guns then for food as well as protection from threats were there was not much of a presence of law enforcement. We had just gotten through a war and were pretty afraid that our late government would come back in the form of invading armies.
Today few people hunt out of necessity. Police are everywhere (especially motorcycle cops with radar guns.) Our country is not really afraid of a British invasion anymore. We could give the old second amendment some thought. Sadly, as someone observed, the NRA has many politicians by the short and curlies.
Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
No, I did NOT consent to this. Fuck you, and fuck you, and fuck you a third time. Stop painting all Americans as gun-sucking idiots. We do NOT all consent to the way things are now. Some of us are doing what we can to change things. Your anti-American, head-in-the-sand, microcephalic caterwauling is uncalled-for. Fuck you.
This has got to be a first, mousethief - but I completely agree. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
As regards the situation with US gun laws, we could do a lot better in some ways, starting with keeping them out of the hands of the mentally ill - and having effective mental health treatment in this country. I'm not (at all) convinced the Canadian/UK/Australian approach to gun control is the solution, though.
As for Horseman Bree - yeah. Most of what I see you post comes off as anti-American bullshit, on guns and most anything else. So get stuffed.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Everry nation state has isues on which it is pretty clueless. Britain has a dire track record for recklessness, whether it's to do with booze, smoking, personal health, birth control, plus a widespread lack of ability to plan and organise finances.
Plenty of businesses cater for these markets and any decisive move to restrict these by a government of any colour is derided as nanny-statism or political correctness gone mad. For some reason it's fine to reduce the deficit by cutting welfare benefits but the idea of a price hike for booze and smokes is unthinkable.
Weird or what?
We've just got different ways of killing ourselves.
Eh? Cigarettes in Britain are nearly the most expensive in the world. The cost of drink is mostly tax as well.
If there is a communal insanity here its our national love of property price inflation. The only people who benefit by it are those who own more than one house and don't have mortgages. The rest of us are stuffed. But we still talk as if high house prices were somehow doing us good.
Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on
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Anti-Americanism has at times been a Canadian religion.
Posted by Alicïa (# 7668) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Everry nation state has isues on which it is pretty clueless. Britain has a dire track record for recklessness, whether it's to do with booze, smoking, personal health, birth control, plus a widespread lack of ability to plan and organise finances.
Plenty of businesses cater for these markets and any decisive move to restrict these by a government of any colour is derided as nanny-statism or political correctness gone mad. For some reason it's fine to reduce the deficit by cutting welfare benefits but the idea of a price hike for booze and smokes is unthinkable.
Weird or what?
We've just got different ways of killing ourselves.
Well put, I had never thought of it that way before.
I have to borrow that one next time I am talking to someone and they start on about this. I get really irritated by the nonsense that some people come out with on this subject at times.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Thank you for your concern.
You are frustrated, but at least are in the system.
We just have to live with the spillover without having any voice.
You want some cheese with that waaaah? Fuck you still.
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
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Children of a common family, is what Americans and Canadians are. I am guilty of generalizing myself; frankly it is because we weep for you when terrible things happen. We want a better world for everyone (okay maybe it is not all of us, but that's what I think).
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
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Golden Key: quote:
E.g., let any Major Player/Newsmaker country that's NEVER colonized, taken over someone's land, tormented indigenous people, raped the environment, and/or done Secret Nasty Stuff cast the first stone.
What, you mean no nation that's ever done anything bad is allowed to repent of its sins and try to do better?
Well there goes the Human Rights Convention, for a start...
Disclaimer: I try not to be anti-American. I realise you don't all see eye to eye on, well, quite a lot of things. But it's really difficult to understand the resistance to more gun control.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
But it's really difficult to understand the resistance to more gun control.
Clearly there are not enough sociopaths in your life. You should get out more!
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
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@RuthW: Thanks, but I prefer to view sociopaths from a safe distance (where possible).
I can understand why you're all annoyed. I get a bit like that when people criticise the UK - even when I agree with their criticisms. But some of us are trying to be supportive - mostly of the anti-gun lobby, I admit, but then very few developed nations have as many gun owners as the US.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Anti-Americanism has at times been a Canadian religion.
I've noticed.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, that's pretty over-the-top ignorance. Like half of the US isn't screaming for gun control.
If half of the US is screaming for gun control and less than nothing happens, what does that say about the US?
First of all, mousethief's and Golden Key's posts covers that pretty succinctly, and second of all, do you really blame all Americans-- and that includes a good number of people on the Ship, that you associate with pretty much every day--for the flaws in their legislative structure? I guess because we are the only country that has such flaws?
And to completely discount that many Americans-- Republicans as well as Democrats-- are pushing for some sort of gun control reform, because an agreement on how to do that hasn't been nailed down yet?
"What that says about the US" is that it has the same kind of slogging, tedious, complicated path to change that any nation has.
Posted by pererin (# 16956) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, that's pretty over-the-top ignorance. Like half of the US isn't screaming for gun control.
If half of the US is screaming for gun control and less than nothing happens, what does that say about the US?
That it takes a certain amount of legislative inertia to keep the Land of the Free worthy of that sobriquet. It's how a republic works.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Children of a common family, is what Americans and Canadians are. I am guilty of generalizing myself; frankly it is because we weep for you when terrible things happen. We want a better world for everyone (okay maybe it is not all of us, but that's what I think).
I try very hard not to buy into the biases that come at me, so as much as it is tempting to give tit for tat, I will not.
suffice it to say that when you live 40 miles from Canada, and are the "vacation spot" for many Canadians, there are issues. You guys aren't exactly all roses and bonbons.
You DO have some great things going for you. You also have some real problems. sounds kind of like... us. the problems are just different.
I AM curious, though. When HB says our problems are spilling over on to your turf, what exactly are those problems? I'm pretty sure no US psycho has held a mass shooting on your side of the border. We certainly haven't forced our way across the border with all our weapons in hand. (I've driven through many times: you all let us through, even when we're packing.)
What is it? our epic media machine drowns out the local stuff? turn it off. even better, legislate it off the air. our people are loud and rude when we visit? so are yours. (trust me. dear GAWD...) we have undue influence on your government? vote out the weenies who are too easily influenced. A bazillion yankee wetbacks coming over and taking your jobs? I somehow doubt it's a notable number. (plus, you don't exactly make it easy to work over there from here.)
From my side of the border, I don't see where we are actually "spilling over". enlighten me.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, that's pretty over-the-top ignorance. Like half of the US isn't screaming for gun control.
If half of the US is screaming for gun control and less than nothing happens, what does that say about the US?
First of all, mousethief's and Golden Key's posts covers that pretty succinctly, and second of all, do you really blame all Americans-- and that includes a good number of people on the Ship, that you associate with pretty much every day--for the flaws in their legislative structure?
I am not blaming anyone - just asking the question.
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
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Oh really, even for some of us Americans it's hard not to be anti-American.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I am not blaming anyone - just asking the question.
I will accept that you were asking to know, and not merely shit-stirring by asking a rhetorical question for the purposes of having plausible deniability when called on it.
But now I ask you to step up to the plate and prove me right. You have several answers. Are you satisfied? Or at the very least, do you get some kind of glimpse of what the situation is, and why some of us are frustrated as hell with the inability of the majority to turn its desires into law?
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Anti-Americanism has at times been a Canadian religion.
I've noticed.
Well, it's one of the main pillars of English Canadian nationalism, going back to the Loyalists.
Though it should be said that if most of those tories who fled the republic had foreseen that Canada in the 21st Century would be ahead of the USA on same-sex marriage(and social liberalism generally), they would have gasped in horror and switched sides immediately.
Whereas today, ironically, Canadian nationalists berate the US for being socially conservative.
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
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quote:
it's one of the main pillars of English Canadian nationalism
The other pillar being anti-British sentiment, represented most violently by the Upper Canada Rebellion.
As opposed to the Loyalists, these guys were actually inspired by republican ideals, largely imported from south of the border.
For the most part, it's the anti-American strain of Canadian nationalism that survives today, though I have read things by anti-American "thinkers" who try to claim the Upper Canada Rebels as forebears. Not sure how they square the circle on that. It is true that MacKenzie was pretty disillusioned with the US after he took refuge there and they tossed him in jail.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Oh really, even for some of us Americans it's hard not to be anti-American.
That's kinda the point, and why that dumb cartoony caricature Horseman Bree called up was so ignorant and smarmy.
And Boogie--what MT said, every word.
[ 20. September 2013, 23:30: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Golden Key: quote:
E.g., let any Major Player/Newsmaker country that's NEVER colonized, taken over someone's land, tormented indigenous people, raped the environment, and/or done Secret Nasty Stuff cast the first stone.
What, you mean no nation that's ever done anything bad is allowed to repent of its sins and try to do better?
No, I mean that countries that have "sinned", repentant or not, shouldn't cast the first stone. There's a difference between "oh, you nasty, horrid, icky, evil nation; no other nation has ever even thought of doing these things" and "hey, we've already been down that road; it's a trap; don't go there!"
I'm not sure to what extent countries have repented. If they've stopped, stopping what you're doing doesn't necessarily mean you repent.
And if anyone in the kind of country I mentioned thinks their country isn't currently doing anything bad, isn't in bed at all with power and money, then they need to wake up and smell reality--even though it stinks.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I am not blaming anyone - just asking the question.
I will accept that you were asking to know, and not merely shit-stirring by asking a rhetorical question for the purposes of having plausible deniability when called on it.
But now I ask you to step up to the plate and prove me right. You have several answers. Are you satisfied? Or at the very least, do you get some kind of glimpse of what the situation is, and why some of us are frustrated as hell with the inability of the majority to turn its desires into law?
I love the USA and have visited many times, we even considered moving there at one time, years ago.
I feel sad and frustrated about the gun laws and the government's inability or refusal to do anything about it.
I am also genuinely confused that something that so many people want to happen isn't even beginning to happen.
I also have a profound and visceral dislike of guns and all weapons which makes this a hot-button issue for me. I had a very sheltered, happy childhood. I didn't know that poeple hurt other people (or even animals) until I was seven years old. I read about a bag of kittens being drowned and cried all night. This doesn't make me soft, I am a tough cookie - life has made up for my early childhood. But it does make me hurt when I hear of violence and pain inflicted on others. I tend to avoid the news because of it - not a good move, I know.
I have worked in the Kibera Kenya, Niarobi Uganda and a shanty town in Mexico (where I'm going again in February) so I don't lead a sheltered life.
I'm not sure if any of this is a defense - but it's an attempt to explain my hatred of guns, especially unregulated guns.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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Oh - and I have been held up at gun point too.
I was 18, at university in London, we lived in a squat, 14 of us. Two girls were in the house when a group of four blokes forced their way in, made us sit on our beds, and ransacked the place. (One of our lecturers lived there too and was experimenting with lazer light technology, he had 1000s of pounds worth of equipment)
I wasn't too shaken 'till I discovered they'd cut the phone lines - that made me realise things could have been pretty bad for us if we'd fought back or tried to get help. As it was, they just left with the stuff.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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I really wasn't asking if you had a good reason not to like guns. I was asking you to accept that there are reasons we cannot get effective gun legislation passed, even though a majority of us which to do so. And those of us who are not gun-humpers felt rather attacked by what we thought was a rhetorical question on your part. Nevertheless we took your question at face value and answered it. But you ignored our answers. So I asked you point-blank to please respond to our answers. And you are still avoiding them.
I appreciate your dislike of guns, and am truly sorry for your negative experiences. But please respond to our answers.
Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I feel sad and frustrated about the gun laws and the government's inability or refusal to do anything about it.
Join the club. I get it that people like to hunt. I get it that some people do face genuine danger and ought to have to ability to be trained and armed. How many people ought to be able to carry arms is a different question.
One of the things I have observed about many people who want to carry arms is that they think some groups of people are out to get them. By this I mean not just a vague set of criminals, but the government itself. Those liberals in government want to take my guns away from me.
Well, I'm liberal and I own guns. All of them are family relics and only two have been used in my lifetime - for target practice. Like you Boogie, I have had guns pointed at me on several occasions. Scared the piss out of me every time.
I don't want my government taking away guns. On the other hand I don't want people to be able to buy assault weapons unless they have a license to do so. A license that requires background checks on not only criminal activity, but psychotic tendency indicators as well. Yes, I get it that medical records are supposed to be private, but purchasing a deadly weapon ought to be an exception to the rule.
Why then are we actually marching towards more people carrying guns around wherever the fuck they want to carry them? My guess is the constantly flowing stream of bullshit known as FOX NEWS.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
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{{{{{{{Boogie}}}}}}}
I don't think it's bad that you avoid the news. Some people call that a "news fast".
Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on
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At the risk of being too heavenly I did a little silly came for the youngsters today. I found some images of weapons made into art and challenged them to recreate the art works using their team (We were doing peace so they couldn't talk or touch each other). I thought it was a good way for us to engage with Isaiah 2:4 and the art works.
Here are some of the links to the pictures. Some of the best are pieces from Phoenix where there seems to be a law forbidding the destruction of confiscated weapons. Others are from the arms left behind in the Cambodian killing fields.
Enjoy and maybe beat your pitchforks into tickle sticks.
http://thesimpleway.org/index.php/about/archive/swords-into-plowshares
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/tyne/hi/people_and_places/religion_and_ethics/newsid_8596000/8596588.stm
http://www.demotix.com/photo/1691202/weapons-used-violence-melted-sculpture-phoenix&popup=1
http://www.designbuzz.com/amazing-sculptures-and-furniture-made-out-of-recycled-military-weapons/
http://mentalfloss.com/article/26325/swords-plowshares-peaceful-weapon-recycling
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4229473.stm
http://www.inspirationgreen.com/guns-and-ammunition.html
(PS Happy international peace day for yesterday)
Posted by Quinquireme (# 17384) on
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quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
We need support, not blame.
sabine [/QB]
Very well put Sabine. Over here in UK we don't hear so much about your anti-gun lobby. Mainly rabid ex-actors addressing rallies of scary-looking people.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Quinquireme:
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
We need support, not blame.
sabine
Very well put Sabine. Over here in UK we don't hear so much about your anti-gun lobby. Mainly rabid ex-actors addressing rallies of scary-looking people.
Perhaps this is because ex-actors have too many memories of blazing away at people, who hit the ground covered in gore then after the word "Cut!" stand up and walk away. If you see that often enough does it affect ones understanding of what firearms can do?
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Quinquireme:
Over here in UK we don't hear so much about your anti-gun lobby. Mainly rabid ex-actors addressing rallies of scary-looking people.
Of course not. Peaceful Americans make for bad TV.
But you have a resource many of your compatriots do not-- the Ship of Fools.
I figured it would be cheating to check the new "gun control" thread in Purg, as we 'Murricans (as some of y'all so charmingly put it) might just be scrambling over there to cover our asses philosophically, so I looked down the first page and saw the Zimmerman thread. On it you find many Americans bewailing the lack of gun control in the US. You even find an Englishman or two scoffing their complaints about lack of gun control in the US. I can accept that the bulk of the UK might not know about American gun control advocates, but I have a harder time accepting that statement from a Shipmate.
And Boogie, as MT, I feel you are backing away from a pretty bombastic rhetorical question. I am sorry for traumatic event, but I bet a lot of Americans can match or top that story, if we really want to play that game. Here's my entry-- my oldest step-nephew shot his girlfriend and himself a few years ago. You can bet among the various levels of pain and outrage I felt about the situation, somewhere in there was outrage that a sixteen year old kid could get his hands on a gun that easily.
On a more subjective level, I sat in on a city council meeting once in which the vast majority of supervisors, commissioners, and townsfolk begged and pleaded that, for God's sake, a gun store open its location somewhere other than right next to the local high school This meeting took place within a year or two of Columbine. The measure to reject the business plan passed overwhelmingly, to a roomful of applause, and the minute the gavel struck a row of suited, ray-bans wearing guys in the back of the room jumped up and filed out of the room.
Within months, to my astonishment, the store was opened, a block away form the high school. It absolutely did not matter what the majority of the community wanted, to these people. My guess is the guys in the back row lawyered up and pounded the city council with the 2nd Amendment til they bled.
So basically-- what sabine said. Please.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
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Midge, that many links makes me want to pound you into a plowshare.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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Seconded. And I know for a fact that there's nothing very 'heavenly' about linking the Hosts to death. I got told off in Heaven once.
Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on
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quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I AM curious, though. When HB says our problems are spilling over on to your turf, what exactly are those problems? ... From my side of the border, I don't see where we are actually "spilling over". enlighten me.
Certainly. HB is likely referring to some of the massive pool of available American guns slipping into Canada, in the form of smuggled weapons obtained and used by criminals. See here for an RCMP report on it (2007) but more recent news items here and here.
As an example, from the RCMP report:
quote:
The United States is the primary source for smuggled firearms or firearms parts entering Canada, due in part to its close proximity, differences in gun control legislation, and a large firearms manufacturing base.
And from the Vancouver Sun:
quote:
B.C. police have long said that many of the illegal firearms that end up in gangsters’ hands are smuggled from the U.S. into Canada and sold for big profits.
So political and economic conditions in a country south of us enable criminal activity within our own borders. Remind you of anything? Let me put it this way: as drug smuggling activity from Mexico is to the US, so gun smuggling activity from the US is to Canada. It pisses us off but there's not much we can do about it, so long as those political and economic conditions persist. We can control our borders and try to dismantle networks, but that's about it.
I truly regret having to support Horseman Bree with facts on this point, because in most other respects HB's posts wrt the US really are anti-American, "oh look what the New York Times proves about Americans being stupid or evil" bags of bigoted crap.
Posted by SeraphimSarov (# 4335) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Oh really, even for some of us Americans it's hard not to be anti-American.
.
Part of the "Blame America First" brigade? ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
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Leaf: that's a fair point, as far is it goes. but the fact of the matter is that that is illegal activity, not condoned by either our people as a whole or our government. I don't blame the entire country of Mexico because of it's drug runners. I don't think it's fair to blame all of us because of our gun runners.
And I'm not going to tell every Mexican I can find about what a bunch of evil bastards they are because their government is inefficient at enforcing our laws. They have their own shit to deal with first, and they are responsible to their own citizens first. If we can help you guys out with the smuggling, I would hope we would. at the same time, I would hope you all wouldn't hold your breath and would do your best from your side, because in case you hadn't noticed we're kind of a mess over here and need to deal with our own gun violence problem first.
figuring this shit out is going to be the national equivalent of giving birth. it's going to take a lot of time, there's going to be a lot of swearing and crying, and it's going to hurt like a motherfucker. We have no choice but to ride it out, push when we're told to push, and BREATHE.
And while we're in this process, we're not going to have much time to help you with your already arrived baby.
Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on
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@ comet and orfeo.
I considered myself thoroughly reworked into a slightly more useful implement.
Sorry.
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Oh really, even for some of us Americans it's hard not to be anti-American.
.
Part of the "Blame America First" brigade?
Is there a list?
Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on
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quote:
Originally posted by comet:
... in case you hadn't noticed we're kind of a mess over here and need to deal with our own gun violence problem first.
Oh, definitely noticed. It seems frustrating on both sides of the border.
I appreciate that your birth metaphor is meant to describe the pain and duration of cultural and legal changes regarding gun policies in your country. I get the magnitude of the issue your citizens face vs. the magnitude of the citizens our citizens face, which is part of what you seem to be saying. But I would use a different metaphor.
Your kids keep throwing dog crap onto our side of the fence, and a few of your dogs snarl and nip at us when they're out walking. But if we complain, the response is a frustrated, "Jesus Fucking Christ! Half the adults in our house think we should own as many dogs as possible, and half are trying to keep it sane in here! There are hundreds of pit bulls and German shepherds in here, and we are trying to cope with messes and biting and blood and mountains of crap... and you're worried about a little of it getting over on your side? Fuck off!"
Ummm... should we not say anything? What should we do? Seriously. Tell me. I don't have a good answer.
We may hope naively that our complaint might actually help those who want a saner household. But probably for some next door, the neighbours' irritation is merely a badge of honour, so it's not like complaining is going to change their minds. Particularly when some already believe they live in the best of all possible households.
For the record, I like dogs, and I'm ok with guns for some limited applications. But I'm also ok with regulation of both.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
Your kids keep throwing dog crap onto our side of the fence, and a few of your dogs snarl and nip at us when they're out walking.
This metaphor doesn't work. I am accountable for my kids and my dogs. I am not accountable for the gun nuts. You might as well scream at me for something somebody sitting 3 rows back of me in the movie theater is doing. Hell, why not yell at me for something going on in Honduras? After all it's on the south side of the US/Canada border. It must be my fault.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
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Those of you who think Americans-in-general should do something about guns:
What do you think we should do that hasn't already been tried/done?
How should we go about it?
Would it work?
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Those of you who think Americans-in-general should do something about guns:
What do you think we should do that hasn't already been tried/done?
How should we go about it?
Would it work?
There isn't a lot of explicit sex on television, at times when children might watch.
There you are then. No films or television shows featuring any use of firearms before, say 10pm.
Sure it might not work, but worth a try, in the UK too.
Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
There you are then. No films or television shows featuring any use of firearms before, say 10pm.
Sure it might not work, but worth a try, in the UK too.
Including, say, the A Team where no-one actually gets killed?
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
There you are then. No films or television shows featuring any use of firearms before, say 10pm.
Sure it might not work, but worth a try, in the UK too.
Including, say, the A Team where no-one actually gets killed?
Especially shows like that, with no one getting a scratch. Gives completely the wrong impression.
Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
There you are then. No films or television shows featuring any use of firearms before, say 10pm.
Sure it might not work, but worth a try, in the UK too.
Including, say, the A Team where no-one actually gets killed?
Especially shows like that, with no one getting a scratch. Gives completely the wrong impression.
Gosh. What an incredibly drab world.
Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Those of you who think Americans-in-general should do something about guns:
What do you think we should do that hasn't already been tried/done?
How should we go about it?
Would it work?
There isn't a lot of explicit sex on television, at times when children might watch.
There you are then. No films or television shows featuring any use of firearms before, say 10pm.
Sure it might not work, but worth a try, in the UK too.
On the other hand, it would mean that an awful lot of children would never get to see Carve her Name With Pride, The Dambusters, Casablanca, Gone With The Wind or a lot of other films that aren't exactly Goodfellas....
Most of my cinematic education was BBC2 on rainy weekdays in the school holidays...
Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on
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Or Zulu. Or The Great Escape.
What else are Bank Holidays for other than for watching these films?
Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
Your kids keep throwing dog crap onto our side of the fence, and a few of your dogs snarl and nip at us when they're out walking.
This metaphor doesn't work. I am accountable for my kids and my dogs. I am not accountable for the gun nuts. You might as well scream at me for something somebody sitting 3 rows back of me in the movie theater is doing. Hell, why not yell at me for something going on in Honduras? After all it's on the south side of the US/Canada border. It must be my fault.
Defensive much? Screaming and yelling are not what's going on here. Interesting that in your frustration, comments seem amplified.
Are they "your children" from an international perspective? Is President Obama "your president"? How are we on the other side of fences to know who disavows whom? Who is representative?
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
Defensive much?
The attacked often are.
quote:
Screaming and yelling are not what's going on here. Interesting that in your frustration, comments seem amplified.
Excuse me. I didn't realize your feelings were so tender that such a metaphor would scar you so.
quote:
Are they "your children" from an international perspective?
Absolutely not. They are adults and their behaviors are quite independent of my wishes or ability to control. As I noted and you must have missed, somehow. Perhaps through not reading carefully? Who can say?
quote:
Is President Obama "your president"?
Yep. Because that's what it means to be elected POTUS. He's all our president. This is completely irrelevant.
quote:
How are we on the other side of fences to know who disavows whom?
I'd be happy if you at least acknowledged the possibility that we do not speak with a united voice. Try it. You may even like it.
quote:
Who is representative?
Have you even read this thread? No one is representative. A nation is not like a homogeneous lump of matter that you can take a small sample from and assume it has all the same properties as the entire lump and vice versa.
Posted by luvanddaisies (# 5761) on
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Maybe they're going in the right direction.
I know it's not at all the same thing as their domestic gun laws, but it's sort of vaguely in the same ballpark. It's taken twenty years of various organisations campaigning to get the USA to sign the Arms Trade Treaty. 86 other nations have already signed it, and the USA being the world's largest arms trader makes its having finally signed it all the more potentially optimism-inducing.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
Your kids keep throwing dog crap onto our side of the fence, and a few of your dogs snarl and nip at us when they're out walking.
This metaphor doesn't work. I am accountable for my kids and my dogs. I am not accountable for the gun nuts.
I don't completely agree. To a limited extent we are responsible for our gun nuts. Each and every one of us. So we vote for the right things, and we push for change. Personally, I'm all about bringing firearm education back into the schools so that we raise people who aren't freakishly weird about weaponry. I have tried to bring this idea to the policy makers and so far, no one will hear it. But I'm trying. Because I DO believe that as much as my small voice Can be heard, it should. because those gun smugglers are akin to my misbehaving dog, as far as our international community is concerned.
unfortunately, I don't get to just have the little fuckers put down.
More than that, though - more than policy and voting and all of that jazz, we do what you and I and many others are already doing, MT. We raise educated, knowledgeable children who are capable of thinking their way out of a wet paper sack and we give them the tools to make change happen. Because it ain't going to happen overnight. we need to take the long view.
So we model the right behavior and we have long conversations with our kids and we "indoctrinate" (Thanks, Yorick) them into our line of thinking so they can further the change we start. we get them to choose not be be criminals or slack-jawed Fox-bobbleheads because we arm them with the skills to make the right choices, for themselves.
You see, that's what the knee-jerk black-or-white conservatives are failing to do. they are saying "NO!" to their kids without teaching them WHY. Because they don't have good arguments for WHY. They just have cookie-cutter sloganeering they've taken on faith; but kids rebel and they look deeper. Those messages don't work.
Remember the common view on homosexuality even from back when we were kids? go to a school and talk to kids now. things have changed. it's slow, but it's happening. Even the kids of homophobics are no longer really spouting those hateful lines, not in the numbers where it used to be socially acceptable. Even the redneck kids will hang out with a gay kid and not feel the need to fear him. big change starts small. but it happens.
and that's how, long term, we will win. Because we'll arm the next generation.
Revolution begins at home.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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Fair do's, comet. We do what we can.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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I can say with confidence that E's mom and dad did everything they could.
Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on
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comet, thanks.
mousethief: I must have expressed myself badly. I meant that you seemed to experience any related comments as amplified, and thus you escalated to the terms "shouting" and "yelling". But I ain't yellin atcha bro. Sorry you heard it that way. We cool.
[ 25. September 2013, 02:06: Message edited by: Leaf ]
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
There isn't a lot of explicit sex on television, at times when children might watch.
There you are then. No films or television shows featuring any use of firearms before, say 10pm.
Sure it might not work, but worth a try, in the UK too.
Actually, we tried a Family (Viewing) Hour, back in the '70s. But it only lasted a couple of years.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
There isn't a lot of explicit sex on television, at times when children might watch.
There you are then. No films or television shows featuring any use of firearms before, say 10pm.
Sure it might not work, but worth a try, in the UK too.
Actually, we tried a Family (Viewing) Hour, back in the '70s. But it only lasted a couple of years.
Interestingly, the examples of TV programs that caused kerfuffles in the 8 - 9pm slot were those featuring sexual issues. Were shows featuring violence to the same level affected?
I rather doubt it. All one has to do is mention gay, lesbian or boobs and the TV companies phones are ringing. Just your Anglo-American hang-up about matters sexual.
In any event, restricting it to one hour is pretty pointless with the growing facility to record TV programs or view them on line.
(I should add that I'm not actually in favour of censoring TV, just drawing attention to the way violence is disregarded to an extent that sex isn't)
Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on
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In the U.S., as you've surmised, violence on TV barely gets a nod. Sex? You'd think the world had ended. I mean, seriously, folks saw Janet Jackson's boob a few years ago on the Super Bowl halftime show. A BOOB! Fines must be assessed! For the children! They'll be scarred for life!
(Of course, it's not quite this simple - you can have plenty of sexualization on U.S. TV, as long as you don't show any naughty bits.)
Murder and mayhem on any number of police procedural shows, however, is the norm.
Am I right in thinking the trend in Europe is the other way around?
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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British TV thrillers seem to specialize in mutilated female bodies at the moment, preferably done by a serial killer, who then puts them on a bed, puts their make-up on again, and so on. All quite tastefully done except for the mutilations.
There is a certain amount of sexual display I suppose. Boobs and dicks a little bit. Quite a lot of shagging, including anal rape in a recent drama series about MPs! I suppose you can expect anything from MPs today.
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
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Europe is not monolithic any more than America is. There is huge variation in what is considered acceptable and what isn't. The French tend to be fairly relaxed about scenes involving sex and nudity. The British are more tolerant of sex than you are but probably more likely to complain about sex scenes than violence.
The British Board of Film Classification's attitude may be of interest here - they may ask for cuts of "...dangerous actions that can easily be imitated by younger, more naive viewers... or actions that result in injury or death in real life, but are almost always shown in the media with no negative consequences." (From Wikipedia - see here ). However, they do pass some surprising things - eg in 'The Rescuers II' there's a scene where the lizard is shot at very close range with a shotgun and gets away without a scratch. In real life it would probably have been shredded. Perhaps the BBFC let this scene pass on the grounds that the chances of the average British child getting his or her hands on a shotgun are fairly remote.
[ 25. September 2013, 13:55: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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Yes, some of these weird programmes which show ads from other countries, usually have a few French ads with boobs a-plenty, usually advertising vacuum cleaners or washing machines, that sort of relevant thing.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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I suppose I'm not going to get any of the big American networks to take my new show 'The Nude Darwinism Hour', then ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
.
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
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Perhaps if you changed the premise...
"Before the Fall: The Garden of Eden"
or even
"Bathtime with Bathsheba" (a soap opera)
Nudity from the Bible is OK, surely? It worked for the Victorians...
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
In the U.S., as you've surmised, violence on TV barely gets a nod. Sex? You'd think the world had ended. I mean, seriously, folks saw Janet Jackson's boob a few years ago on the Super Bowl halftime show. A BOOB! Fines must be assessed! For the children! They'll be scarred for life!
This rather reflects public attitudes in general, as far as I can tell. People think nothing about sending (or taking) their preteens to a movie in which twenty people are killed in camera-splattering ways, but one boob -- or God forbid one penis, which can almost single-handedly (if you'll excuse the expression) raise a movie's rating to NC-17) -- is horrific. I don't understand it myself, and Josephine and I had a perfectly reversed attitude about what we wanted our kids to see, back when they were young enough that we had any say.
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
"Bathtime with Bathsheba" (a soap opera)
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
[ 25. September 2013, 14:48: Message edited by: mousethief ]
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on
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You can show every rifle but you can't show every gun.
Posted by QLib (# 43) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
In the U.S., as you've surmised, violence on TV barely gets a nod. Sex? You'd think the world had ended. I mean, seriously, folks saw Janet Jackson's boob a few years ago on the Super Bowl halftime show. A BOOB! Fines must be assessed! For the children! They'll be scarred for life!
This rather reflects public attitudes in general, as far as I can tell. People think nothing about sending (or taking) their preteens to a movie in which twenty people are killed in camera-splattering ways, but one boob -- or God forbid one penis, which can almost single-handedly (if you'll excuse the expression) raise a movie's rating to NC-17) -- is horrific.
Funnily enough, the comedian Sarah Millican made a very similar remark about Britons and British TV on her show last night.
[ 25. September 2013, 21:44: Message edited by: QLib ]
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
Jane R: "Before the Fall: The Garden of Eden"
That's why God created leaves that always magically settle themselves in strategic places.
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