Ship of Fools: The crime of music

Thread: The crime of music Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

This is insane. I can understand complaining about your neighbour. I can understand maybe seeking some kind of order about what time your neighbour practises the piano if you can't come to an agreement.

I can maybe even understand the neighbour making wild statements about how she should go to jail. What I can't understand is any prosecutor taking those kind of statements seriously.

And they originally wanted seven years. Seven fucking years for making music?!?

Around here we've got a case where people are angry about getting only 4 years for killing someone, but apparently in Spain there are at least some lawyers who thought that 7 years was a good proposition for pianism.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

Her defense team have asked for a halving of the sentence if she only uses the white keys.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

For sure the complainant is lying: any musician will tell you - I am - that its just not possible to play for 8 hours continuously. Apart from the need to use the loo, if you're rehearsing you will stop and start.

Of course, when learning a work you'll also go over the same bit many, many times which can be wearing for someone forced to listen to it.

What I can't understand is that, as a student at a Conservatoire, she would have had access to a rehearsal room at the college for at least part of the time so why didn't she use it?

The other thing, why is it claimed she only played 5 days a week? IME music is not something you just switch off because its the weekend; sure, you may play less, but you won't not touch the instrument.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And they originally wanted seven years. Seven fucking years for making music?!?

I think what that length of time tells you is that we don't know anywhere near enough to form a judgement.

In my view Reuters found a nice little story which they thought would travel (and sell) well, if suitably edited.

It is very common in my experience for prosecutors to throw the book at the accused and for the actual charges to be whittled down as the investigation and the case progress - and very rare for it to go the other way.

Also, in my experience, it's very hard to know what goes on in a court case unless you actually attend the whole thing.

I've not looked very far, but the articles I've seen don't tell you what the original charges were - certainly they were not "for making music" or even for "continuous piano-playing". The reports do tell you it is a criminal case, which suggests a serious charge, and that the prosecutor - who called for seven years at the start of the trial - was merely reiterating the standard maximum sentence for whatever charge was brought (note the parents have been charged with being accomplices; "accomplice to piano-playing" has a nice ring, but I don't think it's in any criminal codes yet).

The prosecutor's final call for 16 months for violating noise ordinances suggests simply that they could not get the more serious charges - left unsaid - to stick.

You may now resume your violin practice.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

So the neighbour got free concerts, from a professional pianist, and they complain?

One of our neighbours is learning the saxaphone, I think. that might be worth complaining about, if it was solidly all day, but some proper music being played? Just enjoy.

Yes, I understand that hearing someone practice all day every day would be painful. But asking for a jail sentence for noise pollution is ludicrous. Insist they get more insulation.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The prosecutor's final call for 16 months for violating noise ordinances suggests simply that they could not get the more serious charges - left unsaid - to stick.

There shouldn't be a call for ANY prison sentence, whatsoever. How is this a criminal matter? Especially this many years after the fact.

The very most that should be on the table is a civil claim for nuisance noise.

The alternative is suggesting that conservatoriums of music ought to be shut down for fostering criminal enterprise.

[ 16. November 2013, 09:06: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

It doesn't matter whether it's a piano or not. It's about being subjected, for a long time, to intrusive, disruptive noise you haven't chosen and have no control over. Any kind of noise that you haven't chosen to live with, going on and on, whether it's music, a factory, DIY, dogs barking, is wearing. The woman downstairs was entitled to a bit of peace and quiet. It may have drowned out her own music, TV etc. I think it's unreasonable to spend hours practising a keyboard in a flat without having some consideration for your neighbours.

And I can quite see why the neighbour can't stand the sound of a piano any more. You'd go past saturation point to musical overdose and start hating anything to do with classical composers.

Having said that, it's an odd story with some discrepancies so who knows what the truth of it really is.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

SC:

quote:
So the neighbour got free concerts, from a professional pianist, and they complain?

No, the neighbour got (allegedly) non-stop REHEARSALS. These usually consist of the same tricky phrases played over and over again; the pianist breaking off halfway through a bar and going back a few pages to try a different interpretation; scales and exercises played at the beginning to limber up the fingers. A friend of a friend is a professional pianist; she has been known to spend the entire afternoon playing the same note over and over again until she was satisfied. I can understand why someone might find that irritating.

It does sound as if there's more to it than just a dispute over excessive noise, though.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

My suspicion is that the original charge related to much more than piano-playing.

The articles I've seen strike me as being carefully worded - and fail to mention the original charge, which might have related to a whole swathe of harrassment issues - and that, not the piano-playing, would explain why it was a criminal matter.

In that scenario, the noise ordinance violation is simply what they could get to stick, irrespective of what the actual issue was. Justice can be pretty rough. Whether a sentence is deserved (even if the actual charge is not really the just one) is impossible to tell given the dearth of facts.

Indeed, what I think is really Hell-worthy is the way reports like this are worded to maximise the sense of outrage (and clicks) and deliberately economise on the actual facts.

[ 16. November 2013, 09:39: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Well your suspicion is wrong. It became a criminal matter because she reached 40 decibels.

Do you have any idea how loud 40 decibels is? Not remotely.

And the stated facts don't seem to have changed a lot in almost 2 years.

[ 16. November 2013, 10:11: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

A quick sample of things that are said to be equivalent to 40 decibels:

a stream
a refrigerator humming
a computer hard drive
bird calls (actually it says they are 44 decibels, the noisy little buggers)
a library. That's right. I found a website that says 40 decibels is a fucking library

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

If 40 decibels is way too low for a noise pollution threshold (and you are right, I have no idea), then the issue is the stupidity of the noise pollution legislation and not what took the noise above the threshold. She is not facing jail for making music*.

*Full disclosure: in my mis-spent youth the band I was rehearsing in did attract the environmental health people wielding a sound level meter. Sorry.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

These neighbours don't get on, do they? I wonder if they ever did.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

People can be really weird about upstairs noise. I have a friend who bristled over the noise made by the wee lap-dog upstairs. No, it wasn't barking. Its tiny toenails were going tippy-tappy on the carpeted floor above her bedroom at night. True story.

Posted by chive (# 208) on :

A couple of years ago I would have read this and thought 'what a load of bollocks.' Then I got noisy neighbours. I swear at times I would happily have murdered them several times over then gone back to murder them again.

The constant emotional drain of unwanted noise day and night for weeks and weeks and months and months is excruciating. I lost count of the number of nights I spent lying in bed with a pillow over my head crying because I could no longer bear it. I had started the process of involving environmental health when Alleluia, they moved.

I have so much sympathy for the poor neighbours. She could have practiced at her music school, rented a studio whatever. Just because she likes to play the piano doesn't mean everyone else should bear the awfulness of constant noise pollution.

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

I didn't spot the reference to 40dB in the link - yes, it's real quiet. (Dr MiM, unemployed lecturer of acoustical engineering, speaking).

Chive has it right - noise sensitises people, dreadfully. In UK, it goes (or should go) EHO investigation, noise abatement order, confiscation of piano. But local authorities are a bit strapped for cash at the moment.

These days I might speak to the neighbour, and then embark on a Pavlovian program of re-education involving a small PA and my collection of Status Quo LPs.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

I've just bought some quality ear plugs. As an alternative to murdering my husband. Not that he is a bad snorer, but I take literally hours to get to sleep and any noise is maddening.

It's not the intensity, it's the fact that you can't control it.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I am a composer. This means that I have to listen to the music 'in my head'. I would be seriously affected if I were forced to hear the same music eight hours per day, even at 40 dB.

I am living in an appartment right now, and I practice the trumpet for 30–40 minutes per day (with a practice mute, and taking care that I won't do it at a time to disturb the neighbours). When I was a professional musician, practicing 3 hours per day, I paid to use a practice room. It's the decent thing to do.

[ 16. November 2013, 20:31: Message edited by: LeRoc ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
In UK, it goes (or should go) EHO investigation, noise abatement order, confiscation of piano.

I note that 'prison' is not on that list.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
In UK, it goes (or should go) EHO investigation, noise abatement order, confiscation of piano.
I note that 'prison' is not on that list.

If things are really bad, the piano goes down. [Snigger]

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

A neighbour practising the piano, I wouldn't mind. But 70 years wouldn't be long enough for anyone who dares to play a drum kit in the vicinity of my house!

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
In UK, it goes (or should go) EHO investigation, noise abatement order, confiscation of piano.
I note that 'prison' is not on that list.
If things are really bad, the piano goes down.

*gasp* NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

You horrid, horrid man.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If things are really bad, the piano goes down.
*gasp* NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

You horrid, horrid man.

I guess it depends on who's walking under the piano.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

quote:
If things are really bad, the piano goes down. [Snigger]

<Godfather voice> Step away from the keyboard or the piano gets it! <\Godfather voice>

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

If it was Country Music then I think we could go for Guilty without the bother of a trial!

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

I nearly created a Hell thread for that comment, WW.
Country is not music. It was created as a foretaste of eternal damnation.

[ 17. November 2013, 15:35: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Tangent alert

OMG This really is appalling. Half-speed, uninspired accompaniment, terrible tuning, lousy phrasing: WHY?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHeTnwpshEs

Sorry but had to share this...

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
These days I might speak to the neighbour, and then embark on a Pavlovian program of re-education involving a small PA and my collection of Status Quo LPs.

I would go for the use of a directional subwoofer attached to the wall/ceiling/floor (depending on which direction the neighbouring apartment is located) and a selection of looped techno samples at random bpms.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Tangent alert

OMG This really is appalling. Half-speed, uninspired accompaniment, terrible tuning, lousy phrasing: WHY?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHeTnwpshEs

Sorry but had to share this...

And I had to check it out, to save orfeo pain. No thanks whatsoever.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

It was too good / bad not to be shared.

I've got a wedding on New Years Eve who've asked for White Christmas, which should be OK.

The rest of the list is so dire I think I'll treat them to the Pizzicato from Sylvia - should go down a storm!

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
These days I might speak to the neighbour, and then embark on a Pavlovian program of re-education involving a small PA and my collection of Status Quo LPs.
I would go for the use of a directional subwoofer attached to the wall/ceiling/floor (depending on which direction the neighbouring apartment is located) and a selection of looped techno samples at random bpms.

In college the people down the hall from me were blaring bad music loudly non-stop. I put a stack of Karlheinz Stockhausen records on my stereo, cranked it up, and left -- locking my door behind me. When I got back later that night the records had finished, and no one ever said a word to me about it. (But I was also never again assaulted by the loud "music" down the hall.)

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Reminds me of a story I heard in my dorm days at the University.

It seems a certain student would party until late in the evening, blasting music and in general keeping his neighbors awake. He was impervious to their requests to keep it down during sleeping hours. He was also known to go out to drunken Friday or Saturday night revels, come home in the wee hours, and sleep until late in the day.

One night while he was out getting soused, his neighbors ran wire out their window, across the face of the building, and in through his window, wiring his speakers up to their amplifier. Then after he came home marinated and had been asleep for a while, but not nearly long enough to be feeling great, they blasted the music at full volume. He woke up and tried to turn his stereo off, unplugged it, all to no avail of course, and eventually threw his own stereo out the window.

He wasn't a happy camper when it transpired what had happened. But he got the hint and was a bit more considerate (once he bought a new receiver) of his dormmates.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Sorry but had to share this...

Did you put a contract out on the tenors afterwards?

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Tangent alert

OMG This really is appalling. Half-speed, uninspired accompaniment, terrible tuning, lousy phrasing: WHY?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHeTnwpshEs

Sorry but had to share this...

Bless their hearts. They're trying so hard. [Tear]

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Sorry but had to share this...
Did you put a contract out on the tenors afterwards?

As a one-time teenage tenor it brought back some horrible memories.

Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on :

quote:
posted by L'Organist:
Sorry but had to share this...

No, you really didn't. Not even in hell.

Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
If 40 decibels is way too low for a noise pollution threshold (and you are right, I have no idea), then the issue is the stupidity of the noise pollution legislation and not what took the noise above the threshold. She is not facing jail for making music*.

*Full disclosure: in my mis-spent youth the band I was rehearsing in did attract the environmental health people wielding a sound level meter. Sorry.

In the town I used to live in, the threshold for a noise violation was 60 decibels (measured at the sidewalk for houses--I don't know how they did it for apartments). Like orfeo, I was in a band that occasionally attracted the attention of John Law. 60 dB is about the volume of normal speech at a distance of a meter or so. 40 dB is not loud at all (though that can be even more annoying--someone in my workplace plays new age flute music very quietly sometimes--barely audible--and it's incredibly annoying because I feel compelled to strain to hear it...)

Nevertheless, there must be more to the story. Though her neighbors should just be grateful she wasn't studying the bagpipes.

Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :

Vaguely related to the topic at hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Hgz8aH9zJQ
I wouldn't have posted if it hadn't reminded me of a certain church in our presbytery.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Reminds me of a story I heard in my dorm days at the University.

Similarly a friend of mine was frustrated in college that at least once a week, often more she was kept up until 2am or so by very loud bad pop music. Since she was a serious classical musician who regularly woke up at 6am to practice this was not tenable. She finally played Carmina Burana at full volume at 6am the morning after being subjected to a particularly late night. The problem was not repeated.

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
... 70 years wouldn't be long enough for anyone who dares to play a drum kit in the vicinity of my house!

Someone occasionally plays a drum-kit in the garden shed of a house behind ours. At first I thought, "oh horror", but I kind of got used to it and thanked God we weren't trying to sell our house. I haven't heard it much of late: maybe the drummist has moved out.

As for Ms. Bosom (what a wonderful name [Big Grin]

), she should be glad her neighbour doesn't play the bagpipes.

[Eek!]

Posted by hilaryg (# 11690) on :

I know a keen drummer who worked a shift pattern that allowed him to practice at home during the day when he knew his nearby neighbours were at work. He thought he was being considerate until he overheard conversations down the pub complaining that someone on the nearby housing estate was playing the drums too loudly. It seems he could be heard up to half a mile away!

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
As for Ms. Bosom (what a wonderful name ), she should be glad her neighbour doesn't play the bagpipes.

Well, Ms Bosom has clearly got it off her chest at last.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Vaguely related to the topic at hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Hgz8aH9zJQ
I wouldn't have posted if it hadn't reminded me of a certain church in our presbytery.

Well why did they leave the keyboard lid open all the time? Stupid.

Posted by Alban (# 9047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
For sure the complainant is lying: any musician will tell you - I am - that its just not possible to play for 8 hours continuously. Apart from the need to use the loo, if you're rehearsing you will stop and start...

As far as the folks downstairs were concerned, she was still practicing, perhaps John Cage's 4'33.

I think the thing that is appalling is that it got as far as it did. No-one moved, no-one thought of renting a rehearsal room, no-one broke into the house when she wasn't practicing and removed the innards of the piano, and noone in a position of authority came round to remove the offending instrument. 4 years of ineffectual non-solutions, something was definitely wrong there.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

By far the best piece of music Cage ever wrote.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Ditto re Cage!

Though I did hear recently that it's supposed to have some kind of rhythm to it.

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