Ship of Fools: Let the car get flooded?

Thread: Let the car get flooded? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by NJA (# 13022) on :

Again we have pictures of streets full of flooded cars. People were warned, why didn't they drive to higher ground?

It wouldn't be far since it's coastal flooding.
It means higher car insurance for the rest of us.

I believe insurance should not cover when there is at least 8 hours warning & the person chooses not to do anything.

We aren't talking about inner-cities, we are talking about small towns in North Wales & the East Coast. Flooding was from the sea so people only had to park a few streets away.

Am I missing something?

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

Yep - you are missing some sympathy for those with flooded out homes and cars - with little chance of any insurance company giving them cover in the future.

[Roll Eyes]

Posted by Francophile (# 17838) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Yep - you are missing some sympathy for those with flooded out homes and cars - with little chance of any insurance company giving them cover in the future.

I agree. Being flooded, whether home, car, school or business, must be utter misery.

Posted by Tubifex Maximus (# 4874) on :

quote:
Originally posted by NJA:
Again we have pictures of streets full of flooded cars. People were warned, why didn't they drive to higher ground?

It wouldn't be far since it's coastal flooding.
It means higher car insurance for the rest of us.

I believe insurance should not cover when there is at least 8 hours warning & the person chooses not to do anything.

We aren't talking about inner-cities, we are talking about small towns in North Wales & the East Coast. Flooding was from the sea so people only had to park a few streets away.

Am I missing something?

I'm surprised that no-one had the foresight to build a bloody great boat out of Chittim wood, whatever that is, and put two of every kind of beast bird and creeping thing it. Then they could just float off and let everyone else go to hell; and not an insurance claim in sight!

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

Imagine getting everyone out of the area about to be flooded without loss of lives rather than the much more important priority of keeping car insurance rates low. Some people have no sense of what is important.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by NJA:
Am I missing something?

Yes. After the tin man, the scarecrow and the cowardly lion mugged you.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

NJA

No flood or storm surge warning was issued for Northern Ireland, Western Scotland or North Wales. It was only after the tide had overflowed the rather meagre promenade and sea wall at Rhyl that the powers-that-be woke up and looked at the potential problem on the north sea and started issuing storm surge warnings and evacuation advice.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by NJA:
Am I missing something?
Yes. After the tin man, the scarecrow and the cowardly lion mugged you.

Now that's funny. [Killing me]

Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :

Lets show mercy to people who are flooded out. Hopefully they still have power. wet & cold that's truely agony.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

We should not forget that weather warnings are often a case of the boy crying "wolf". If I have a few hours notice to get my car, drive it up a hill, find a parking space somewhere among all the other people who have just driven up the same hill, and then walk home, I'll probably do it if I'm pretty sure a flood is coming that would otherwise sink my car.

But if you tell me the flood is coming, I go to all that effort, but no flood comes, I'm going to be disinclined to believe you next time around.

Posted by NJA (# 13022) on :

I've been watching the national news warn of high winds from the North West for the last 2 days, I'm surprised this didn't translate to flood warnings in affected areas!

In these days of computer-aided meteorology I'm sure the figures were available, but somehow the media or some authorities didn't deem it appropriate to issue a warning!

Saving one's car would reduce the misery of not having a vehicle until the insurance claim gets sorted, especially at a time when it might be needed for clearing out damaged furniture, and/or enabling you to help neighbours ... practical mercy.

Down here in inland SE England the police told local market traders to take down their stalls several hours before winds came.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by NJA:

Saving one's car would reduce the misery of not having a vehicle until the insurance claim gets sorted, especially at a time when it might be needed for clearing out damaged furniture, and/or enabling you to help neighbours ... practical mercy.

Oh right - it's all about helping each other now, and not your higher insurance premiums.

Fooling nobody you miserable back-pedalling whinger.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

{Peers inquiringly from across the Pond.}

I don't know anything about this storm. But maybe some people were at work? Since some of the affected places sound like small towns, I'm guessing some people work elsewhere. Here, many people with an out-of-town commute take public transportation. Some companies even provide buses. So many people may not have had a chance to move their cars or even get personal supplies. Even if they were working in the town where they live, there was short notice--and there may well have been bosses who didn't take it seriously, or insisted that people stay.

And some people might have been in bed.

FWIW.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by NJA:

Am I missing something?

Yes. You still don't understand what the Hell board is for. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:

quote:
Originally posted by NJA:

Am I missing something?
Yes. You still don't understand what the Hell board is for.

TBF, he has fuck-all idea what Heaven is for either.

Posted by Tubifex Maximus (# 4874) on :

quote:
Originally posted by NJA:
I've been watching the national news warn of high winds from the North West for the last 2 days, I'm surprised this didn't translate to flood warnings in affected areas!

In these days of computer-aided meteorology I'm sure the figures were available, but somehow the media or some authorities didn't deem it appropriate to issue a warning!

Saving one's car would reduce the misery of not having a vehicle until the insurance claim gets sorted, especially at a time when it might be needed for clearing out damaged furniture, and/or enabling you to help neighbours ... practical mercy.

Down here in inland SE England the police told local market traders to take down their stalls several hours before winds came.

I've never been in a major flood but I imagine the priorities would be

Where are the kids?
What about food and water?
What about stuff to keep us warm and dry?
Is there anything we can get upstairs?
Where do we go to be safe?

For whatever reason, the car just doesn't seem to come anywhere on that list. Occasions like this focus the mind on to essentials.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Imagine getting everyone out of the area about to be flooded without loss of lives rather than the much more important priority of keeping car insurance rates low. Some people have no sense of what is important.

Yeah, but flooding only affects the people in the immediate area. Higher insurance premiums affect NJA, and we can't have that!

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Spike, in response to NJA:

quote:
You still don't understand what the Hell board is for.

Oh, I dunno - he seems to have painted a target on himself quite effectively...

[ 06. December 2013, 08:28: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

We lived on the coast, within sight of the high-tide line.

The kitchen noticeboard always had a copy of the tidetables on it.

When the wind was in a certain quarter and high winds were forecast we noted the fact and we simply took our boots upstairs at night.

The groundfloor had swimming-pool type tiles and grouting, DPC that went up the walls seamlessly and skirtings that were properly sealed; electrical sockets at waist height (or above). Outside the house had French drains and soakaways all around.

Upstairs in the airing cupboard was a box with torches, batteries, candles, waterproof matches, a cold bag with bottled water, primus stove, soup mix, etc. Most important: all passports, certificates, photo negatives were kept upstairs.

Car? Not that important - and impossible to keep out of the way within less than 2 miles. Besides, cars can be replaced far more easily than documentation and memories.

[Hit wrong tit TWICE!! edited to add]:
Not my doing initially - but learned from watching floods on the TV news and hearing from survivors their grief at losing wedding photos, paperwork to do with insurance etc.

When warnings are issued most of us will want to think "it won't happen to me" because most of the time that view will be correct - but better safe than sorry.

Now lets hope everything can be done to help those affected by the flooding have as good a Christmas as possible.

[ 06. December 2013, 10:03: Message edited by: L'organist ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:

quote:
Originally posted by NJA:

Am I missing something?
Yes. You still don't understand what the Hell board is for.

He at least understands better than deano.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

The groundfloor had swimming-pool type tiles and grouting, DPC that went up the walls seamlessly and skirtings that were properly sealed; electrical sockets at waist height (or above). Outside the house had French drains and soakaways all around.

Yes. I would certainly do this if living in a flood prone area. Make sure it was as easy to clear up as humanly possible.

The car? Nope, cars can be replaced.

I live right at the top of a hill, but the people in the houses in the valley are not so fortunate, they often get floods.

I'm the lucky one - whatever happens to car insurance premiums!

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I live in a flood-risk zone in Norfolk, and I was trying to think where the nearest higher ground is - I suppose it would be about 20 miles away. The fens are very flat. What would I do then - walk back?

And as others have said, if there are flood warnings, your car is not high on the list of priorities.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Mind you, it takes a really special kind of person to look at pictures of a devastated community and react with 'Never mind about the people - didn't anyone think to rescue the CARS?!'

I think the only high ground in Lincolnshire is the hill that Lincoln is built on - and all the parking spaces there are probably already occupied by residents' cars...

[ 06. December 2013, 10:40: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :

My commiserations to anyone affected; it must be miserable.

I saw on the News a reporter outside a house in a flood risk area. The house had very sensible sandbags across the front door, but the reporter did not say this. He said they were the householders' 'desperate attempt' to keep the water out.

To me, sandbags are sensible and reasonable. Desperate would be clingfilm wrapped around cushions.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

For some reason this thread reminds me of this song by Weird Al...

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

Tiara On

You know what, I’m bored with this and I hate to be bored. NJA, you have been here by 2007 and have 1,069 posts to your name. By now, it is reasonable to expect you to know the following two things:

1) These are discussion boards. A random question and a link to an article or youtube does not count as a meaningful contribution to a discussion BTW. But they could be considered border-line spam.

2) Where to start your threads. Each board has a distinct purpose. Rants belong in Hell and light hearted, creative discussions belong in Heaven etc.

If you need to be reminded of these things again, the Hosts will be getting an early Christmas present of some NJA related peace and quiet.

Tiara Off

Tubbs
Admin

[ 06. December 2013, 12:28: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by NJA:
I've been watching the national news warn of high winds from the North West for the last 2 days, I'm surprised this didn't translate to flood warnings in affected areas!

In these days of computer-aided meteorology I'm sure the figures were available, but somehow the media or some authorities didn't deem it appropriate to issue a warning!

It would be interesting to know how often these same conditions did not result in flooding. Meteorology is not advanced enough to make infallible predictions.

Right now we are waiting to see whether there will be an ice storm here on Sunday. The Weather Service has issued a 'watch', which means it may or may not happen.

Moo

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Is it possible that some of these people don't have garages, and that they had their car parked in the street and they were travelling (by plane for example)?

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
It would be interesting to know how often these same conditions did not result in flooding.

Pretty much 99% of the time. A storm surge that overtops costal defences is really quite rare round here. Most of our flooding comes from rivers bursting their banks, not from the sea.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

It's supposed to be the worst tidal surge for 60 years along the East coast; but then over 300 people died (1953). I think everybody is much better prepared now, and probably with better flood defences as well.

I hate seeing those flood maps, as our house is plumb in the middle of it. But it hasn't reached us yet, oh thanks to Cthulhu.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
...thanks to Cthulhu

I'll pass it on next time I see him. Or her - it's hard to tell and it seems impertinent to enquire.

Just for the record, flood warnings are only issued at the "take action" stage. There were flood warnings and "serious flood warnings" (risk of death) out yesterday before the events because I saw them. The stage before that is "Flood alert", and alerts have certainly been out for a while. If people want to ignore these things they are at liberty to do so.

North Sea storm surges are caused by the coincidence of three things. Abnormally high north winds, abnormally low pressure, and high spring tides.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by NJA:
It wouldn't be far since it's coastal flooding.

...

Flooding was from the sea so people only had to park a few streets away.

This is the fens and Norfolk. The land is very flat. To be sure of getting to higher ground, this would be several miles, not "a few streets away". Boston was pretty well completely flooded, so people would have had to leave the town completely - so where do you suggest they all go?

Yes there was some warning of exceptionally high storm surges, but it is never clear exactly where is will hit, where it will affect most. Are you seriously proposing that every time there is a possibly high tide - several times a year - the entire coast should evacuate inland for a day?

Or, are you a dickhead? Who clearly has no sympathy for the many thousands of people who have been unexpectedly flooded out?

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Most of our flooding comes from rivers bursting their banks, not from the sea.

Some of the flooding in Ipswich came from water forcing up through the drains rather than overtopping the river banks. Look at Picture 7
in this sequence.

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

Personally, I think Deano and NJA were separated at birth. Twin twats.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Personally, I think Deano and NJA were separated at birth. Twin twats.

I'm seeing more of a hatching from slime scenario.

Posted by Flubb (# 918) on :

This thread has twice the comedic value with the XKCD chrome extension installed.

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tubifex Maximus:

quote:
I'm surprised that no-one had the foresight to build a bloody great boat out of Chittim wood, whatever that is, and put two of every kind of beast bird and creeping thing it. Then they could just float off and let everyone else go to hell; and not an insurance claim in sight!

Can't claim for Acts of God anyway.

Posted by Tubifex Maximus (# 4874) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Most of our flooding comes from rivers bursting their banks, not from the sea.
Some of the flooding in Ipswich came from water forcing up through the drains rather than overtopping the river banks. Look at Picture 7
in this sequence.

Shit. it'll take months to clean out a house that's been soaked four feet deep in brackish water; and the smell!

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:

quote:
Originally posted by Tubifex Maximus:

quote:
I'm surprised that no-one had the foresight to build a bloody great boat out of Chittim wood, whatever that is, and put two of every kind of beast bird and creeping thing it. Then they could just float off and let everyone else go to hell; and not an insurance claim in sight!
Can't claim for Acts of God anyway.

Now that is a battle I'd be interested to see the national secular society fight !

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
Can't claim for Acts of God anyway.

{tangent alert}

There was a famous lawsuit in the US in the 1930s. The actress Helen Hayes had signed a contract to appear in a certain play. Then she became pregnant. The theater management sued her for breach of contract. The contract in question had an "Act of God" clause. Her lawyers successfully argued that the pregnancy was an Act of God.

{/tangent alert}

Moo

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

Wow. Did her husband consider "putting her aside?"

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Re flood and act of God:

Is there flood insurance available in England?

And Porridge: ROTFL re "putting aside".

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Golden Key, there is flood insurance available in England. However, as insurance companies prefer taking your money to paying it back they will either refuse to insure your house altogether if it is in a really high-risk area or set the premium so high that buying the insurance policy is almost as expensive as just replacing everything yourself the next time a flood comes. So it's getting to the point where you can't buy flood insurance unless your house is very unlikely to be flooded. Hooray for the free market.

Some of the people in Hull who've been flooded this time were still trying to recover from the last one.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Re: British insurance companies and flooding.

Some have their own flood maps which are wildly inaccurate.

Some 6+ years ago I was refused insurance because "we know your area is not only at high risk of flooding but has been badly affected by flood in the past 15 years". Going back to 1750 in local records there is NO evidence of even slight localised flooding: waterlogged fields very occasionally but nothing more.

I went back to the insurance company and gave them the evidence - but they still stand by their own "up-to-date information" and say we're a high flood risk.

Old rule-of-thumb should still hold good: don't buy a house anywhere called Mead, Rill, Leat, etc. When house-buying in an unfamiliar area a trip to the local museum can be illuminating...

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I used to live in a house with a boat moored at the bottom of some steps. This was strictly for going to the pub, with the correct lights showing of course, but we thought that flooding was very unlikely. Fools!

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

When buying in Britain, one has the option of purchasing, at some expense, a report detailing flood risk. There was reputed to be some such thing hereabouts. Use of maps, which showed me to be, as I could see by eye, at the top of a hill, with no nearby reservoir, and no mysterious deposits of alluvium, made it clear that there was nothing to worry about. Use of the internet revealed an issue discussed by the local parish council which seems to have been a large puddle in the road, subsequently dealt with.

I didn't buy the radon report, either.

Meanwhile, lots of poshish local developments have been built close by the Thames, below the 5 metre level, downstream of the Woolwich Barrier, but with seawalls. (The tide didn't get anywhere near overtopping them last week, though.) Presumably the insurance companies reckong they're safe.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:

Meanwhile, lots of poshish local developments have been built close by the Thames, below the 5 metre level, downstream of the Woolwich Barrier, but with seawalls. (The tide didn't get anywhere near overtopping them last week, though.) Presumably the insurance companies reckong they're safe.

Safe enough to be built and sold no doubt; whether they are safe enough to be lived in for twenty years without getting sodden is another matter.

Our office is built next to a lake and not too far from a river. It's OK for now, but the foundations for our new multi-story car park were very soggy indeed and works were delayed for months.

[ 09. December 2013, 19:31: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Old rule-of-thumb should still hold good: don't buy a house anywhere called Mead, Rill, Leat, etc. When house-buying in an unfamiliar area a trip to the local museum can be illuminating...

The museum is a good idea. But the road names probably only apply to older roads.

My road is a 'Mead', but it is a newer development on top of a chalk hill, and safely out of reach of any but the most determined external floods.

[ 09. December 2013, 19:38: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:

My road is a 'Mead', but it is a newer development on top of a chalk hill, and safely out of reach of any but the most determined external floods.

/rainfall increases with altitude/ [Snigger]

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

There were NO warnings of these floods, the guy that you see in this video is a lunatic, although he had the right car and knowledge to just get away with this..... Refusing to let the car get flooded

I'm sure nobody wants their car to get flooded but neither does everybody have the ability to drive their car to higher ground and then walk home, presumably in the pouring rain the elderly, disabled, carers etc.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
There were NO warnings of these floods, the guy that you see in this video is a lunatic, although he had the right car and knowledge to just get away with this..... Refusing to let the car get flooded

I'm sure nobody wants their car to get flooded but neither does everybody have the ability to drive their car to higher ground and then walk home, presumably in the pouring rain the elderly, disabled, carers etc.

What happened in Toowoomba is one of the most vivid examples possible of the sheer unpredictability of nature. People literally joked about the prospect of a flood there, a town built at the top of the Great Dividing Range.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

We are on the edge of an area marked as flood plain, part of which routinely floods each winter. The Council are planning to build a school, just on the edge, with a large playground in the area which might flood. Their theory is that most of the time the pupils will have a really big playground, and when / if it floods the flood waters won't reach the school itself unless there is a "once-in-two-hundred-year flood".

I put my historian's hat on and pointed out that the area has had nine "once-in-two-hundred-year" floods in the last 200 years. I provided dates, newspaper reports etc.

Someone from the Council explained to me, as though I was a bit simple, that "once-in-two-hundred-year" is a technical term, which doesn't actually mean "once-in-two-hundred-years" Apparently, it's a civil engineering term. I wouldn't understand it, apparently, because it's too technical for me, what with me having a history degree, rather than an engineering degree.

Can anyone here tell me WTF "once-in-two-hundred-years" means?

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:

Can anyone here tell me WTF "once-in-two-hundred-years" means?

It means that next year there is a one in two hundred chance there will be a flood. Just as, when you roll a dice, there is a one in six chance of a six. Which is not to say you can't roll two sixes in a row. Or three, or four....

(Definition provided to me by someone whose job title has 'Hazard' in it).

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

What statistics do they base that calculation on, Firenze? Clearly they're not based on what has actually happened, although I can understand ignoring any floods more that 100 years ago, as the area has changed since then, in terms of more housing, more roads, more drains.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

It is done, I am informed, by Modelling.

This is not, I gather, a matter of strut, pout, turn, walk back, but involves running a very large number of simulations of all possible scenarios until a probability is arrived at. Probably.

I suspect the chap from the Council doesn't know how it's arrived at either, and if you narrowed your eyes and asked him what the flood hazard model was, he would blush and stammer.

Further reading.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

That makes sense. The Council had a Public Consultation re their plans, and the men from the Council who were doing the hard sell on Why This Is A Good Idea were bandying about reassuring phrases like "once-in-two-hundred-years" and "you can ignore the SEPA flood maps, as they are out of date."

So the problem was probably that the Council PR people didn't understand the issue, were just parrotting phrases and couldn't cope with me brandishing a file of newspaper reports.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

NEQ

Your Council has already decided to build the school so that argument is lost.

What you could/should do is put the case for the surface of the playground to be porous so that as and when it floods the water will drain away quickly. Similarly, the car-parking should be of the type that uses hollow setts to pave: these aren't just useful to allow for planting with green material, they also provide useful drainage.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

The Council have done all that. My concern is that we are downstream of the proposed school, and fairly close to the existing flood line. I'm just a bit antsy that if the council squeeze the flood line up stream, it might widen downstream. The school is part of a two-stage process - the existing schools are seriously overcrowded, so the new school will immediately relieve the existing overcrowding, but will also let the Council give planning permission for more houses to be built. The new houses will be upstream of us, and up to the edge of the flood line.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

If the school building has not already been designed, it would be a smart move to put it on pillars. That would prevent flood damage, and the space under the building would make a good playground for rainy days.

Moo

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
If the school building has not already been designed, it would be a smart move to put it on pillars. That would prevent flood damage, and the space under the building would make a good playground for rainy days.

Moo

Rainy days? You mean the ones where the place is flooding?

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
If the school building has not already been designed, it would be a smart move to put it on pillars. That would prevent flood damage, and the space under the building would make a good playground for rainy days.

Moo
Rainy days? You mean the ones where the place is flooding?

No, I assume that most rainy days will not result in flooding.

Moo

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
That makes sense. The Council had a Public Consultation re their plans, and the men from the Council who were doing the hard sell on Why This Is A Good Idea were bandying about reassuring phrases like "once-in-two-hundred-years" and "you can ignore the SEPA flood maps, as they are out of date."

So the problem was probably that the Council PR people didn't understand the issue, were just parrotting phrases and couldn't cope with me brandishing a file of newspaper reports.

I hate to mention this, but I've got the sound of warning bells going off in my ears. If the SEPA flood maps are out of date, that suggests two possible reasons -

1. That recent building work has affected the flood hydrograph. Usually this is because development causes rainfall to get to the river more quickly, so you get higher floods more quickly.

2. That more recent changes in meteorological statistics have rendered the recurrence frequencies unsound. Basically, we are seeing more extreme events more frequently, even if the average hasn't changed much.

Either way, that would imply a higher risk than shown on the earlier maps, unles there has been some major flood alleviation works completed recently.

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