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Originally posted by daisymay:
The previous topic has gone!

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Originally posted by daisymay:
for the community and family at Freeland.

I'd prefer to have been able to go tomorrow for the funeral, but I'm not well...

God, bless them all.

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Originally posted by Miffy:
Something that's been exercising my mind greatly of late has been the question of how one fosters a sense of community in a dispersed order such as TSSF. Distance, increasing age and a certain reclusivity left over from the era when the order was almost a secret society don't help IMO.

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Originally posted by Margaret:

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Originally posted by Miffy:
Something that's been exercising my mind greatly of late has been the question of how one fosters a sense of community in a dispersed order such as TSSF. Distance, increasing age and a certain reclusivity left over from the era when the order was almost a secret society don't help IMO.

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Yes, same here! Our small group has meetings every two months and our area has two meetings a year, but they're not particularly well attended (I'm usually a guilty non-attender, as the group meetings seem to happen when I'm especially busy, and the prospect of sitting discussing a chapter of a devotional book for two hours has limited appeal when you're trying to beat a deadline). The newest member of our group complains that the area meetings are cliquey and unfriendly, and I see just what he means - over lunch people tend to talk with people they already know. I'm fairly good at making small talk with strangers while nibbling a piece of quiche, but I don't really enjoy them either.

I wish we could move away from these very churchy meetings and do things together rather than just talk; I'm sure that would increase our sense of being a community.

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Heavens, Margaret, that doesn't sound particularly encouraging for you or anyone else. I'm, like I suspect, many, pulled between feeling that yes, we do need to work out how to
do more together, and a dislike of the red tape and administerial faffing about that seems to be considered necessary before any initiatives can be taken.

Had you read the feature on TSSF in the latest edition of The Franciscan? It fills in much of the background and history of the order, including the 'hiddeness' of its early days, ( supposedly to do with cultivating humility), which is why it was formerly Not The Done Thing to reveal your membership to anybody outside the order. I'm not sure I'd have lasted five minutes back then! Said 'hiddeness' is also, it seems, one of the reasons why tertiaries don't generally band together in common for specific works or actions. (The same doesn't appear to apply in the First Orders, for reasons that I'm unable to fathom). Any ideas why, anybody?



There's also some thought-provoking research findings on the effectiveness of TSSF in nurturing a Franciscan way of life over on the website.

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"I don't feel like smiling." "You're English dear; fake it!" (Colin Firth "Easy Virtue")
Growing Greenpatches

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Originally posted by Margaret:
...Yes, same here! Our small group has meetings every two months and our area has two meetings a year, but they're not particularly well attended (I'm usually a guilty non-attender, as the group meetings seem to happen when I'm especially busy, and the prospect of sitting discussing a chapter of a devotional book for two hours has limited appeal when you're trying to beat a deadline). The newest member of our group complains that the area meetings are cliquey and unfriendly, and I see just what he means - over lunch people tend to talk with people they already know. I'm fairly good at making small talk with strangers while nibbling a piece of quiche, but I don't really enjoy them either.

I wish we could move away from these very churchy meetings and do things together rather than just talk; I'm sure that would increase our sense of being a community.

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Interesting points and comment, Margaret.

Ditto yours and attached article, Miffy.

I suspect a lot has to do with whether people want to play at being Franciscan/'religious' or whether the charism has somehow effected them.

You can't have 'religion on tap'. It takes effort.

I did attend one TSSF retreat as a possible member. The people who ran it and some tertiaries seemed pretty good. Others seemed to think it was one of those 'jolly churchy things one does, like belonging to one's parish, where Mavis & I have attended for 40 years'.

There is a great deal of self-obsessed religiosity doing the rounds these days. 'I' am doing 'this'.

I would think you would need some sort of spiritual self-discipline to achieve anything: the ability for regular prayer; Bible reading and worship. It need not be time consuming.

I suspect many people are interested in the sort of minor social chitchat which seems to feature at Morning Tea after the Eucharist. It's the highlight of some people's lives. Going to church to meet their old pals.

Somehow that doesn't ring very 'Franciscan' to me.

It's very much a 'What's in it for me?' approach.

My simple answer would be 'Nothing' or 'Nothing you'd fancy.'

As you know, I attend a Franciscan church. Most of the parish have very little idea of what Franciscans are or do. Many want something out of it. Few look to do unobserved work for it. There are some excellent people but their ranks are thinning.

I suspect Franciscanism means being in the world but not being totally swamped by it. All the Orders have, at times, been swamped and gone under in certain places. I suspect there are areas of light and areas, well...

[code fixed - WW]

[ 30. December 2010, 07:56: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]

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Well...

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Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Simply put, Margaret, I think there are people like yourself and Miffy, who are attracted to spirituality and others who think they are joining a cosy little club. A cosy little club in faux 'Franciscan' garb.

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Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
When things work, they work, Miffy.

It doesn't require a deeper explanation.

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"God moves in a mysterious way," I guess.

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"I don't feel like smiling." "You're English dear; fake it!" (Colin Firth "Easy Virtue")
Growing Greenpatches

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Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
As a tertiary of several (many ?) years I'm just saying 'Hi',

Pax et Bonum

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Excuse double post; I keep meaning to say 'hi' back, GH.

daisymay, thanks for the link to the new Freeland site. I read that there are some drop-on Quiet Days scheduled at the Old Parsonage. Must investigate. Who knows, after nearly four years plus around the Franciscans, I may get to visit the place at last.

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"I don't feel like smiling." "You're English dear; fake it!" (Colin Firth "Easy Virtue")
Growing Greenpatches

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Originally posted by Campbellite:

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Originally posted by daisymay:
The previous topic has gone!

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I remember we had such a thread in the past, but it seems to have vanished into the ether. Carry on here.

Campbellite
All Saints Host

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Originally posted by Miffy:

I wondered about the experiences of folk posting here with Third Order Francsican links. Or Benedictine oblates/Dominicans, (Rosamundi, where are you?) Do others in your church have a particular expectations of you? Do you yourself?

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Originally posted by Qoheleth.:

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Originally posted by Miffy:

I wondered about the experiences of folk posting here with Third Order Francsican links. Or Benedictine oblates/Dominicans, (Rosamundi, where are you?) Do others in your church have a particular expectations of you? Do you yourself?

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My recognition of a specifically Benedictine vocation developed alongside the role I was already growing into locally. Then, once it became evident that I wouldn't be entering licensed ministry, people had somewhere else to classify me. The four times a year when I preach, I cast off my usual blue choir cassock for a black Benedictine one.

So, from the perspective of the parish, oblature is about affirming what Q. is already doing. I think it therefore reinforces any expectations, rather than generating them. For me, oblates aim to foster the Benedictine charism, so I expect that I will - in the parish (and the workplace).

I guess it would be very different to be moving into a new parish as an existing oblate?

Does that help?

Q.
(OblSB)

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Originally posted by Miffy:
So, were you to move to a different parish, your Benedictine vocation would in no way be negated; the way in which you express the charism would essentially remain the same, though maybe with a different nuance to it, depending on the setting and needs of your new church.

Does that sound right?

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Yes, I think so.

We have, of course, no national oblate structure akin to a Franciscan Order of tertiaries. As dispersed Benedictines, our affiliation is to a specific monastery. So ISTM we tend to be used to living out our vocation as solitaries!

Stability, obedience and conversio morum
Poverty and chastity are optional

Q.

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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.

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Stability, obedience and conversio morum
Poverty and chastity are optional

Q. [/QB]

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It's a matter of wording, isn't it?

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When Saint Francis encouraged the formation of The Third Order he recognised that many are called to serve God in the spirit of Poverty, Chastity, and Obedience in everyday life (rather than in a literal acceptance of these principles as in the vows of the Brothers and Sisters of the First and Second Orders). The Rule of The Third Order is intended to enable the duties and conditions of daily living to be carried out in this spirit.

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Originally posted by Miffy:

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Stability, obedience and conversio morum
Poverty and chastity are optional

Q.

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It's a matter of wording, isn't it?

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Exactly. The latter derive naturally from the former.

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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.

Posted                         

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Originally posted by Qoheleth.:

quote:

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Originally posted by Miffy:
So, were you to move to a different parish, your Benedictine vocation would in no way be negated; the way in which you express the charism would essentially remain the same, though maybe with a different nuance to it, depending on the setting and needs of your new church.

Does that sound right?

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Yes, I think so.

We have, of course, no national oblate structure akin to a Franciscan Order of tertiaries. As dispersed Benedictines, our affiliation is to a specific monastery. So ISTM we tend to be used to living out our vocation as solitaries!

Stability, obedience and conversio morum
Poverty and chastity are optional

Q.

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Originally posted by fiercecalm:
Hello all. I am intrigued by this question of what people 'hope for' or feel they can 'offer' by becoming Franciscan or by becoming a Tertiary. Some are clearly looking for 'community' or some kind of spiritual 'vehicle' which might help them develop virtue or inspire & help them to get involved in social action.

But it makes me wonder, why is the Third Order growing so successfully in numbers while the 1st and 2nd orders seem to be gradually withering? Is the call of marriage, children and career so ubiquitously powerful that no one can even consider these other orders?

Have we changed somehow as a culture since the waves of novices of the 50s, 60s and 70s? The size of the Third Order would suggest that Franciscan spirituality is as popular as ever, so why do people think vowed religious are becoming so few and far between (whether Anglican or RC, active or enclosed)?

I for one certainly don't want the 1st and 2nd orders to die out, but I'm at loss as to figure out what the problem is. Is it perhaps just a case of 'marketing'? Ie no one knows about these things until they've gone the marriage route? But why would the religious life be so attractive to young men and women 40 years ago but almost irrelevant today? Or has our celebrity & fame & wealth culture made it impossible for anyone in their 20s to consider giving their life away? Perhaps there is so much opportunity out there 'in the world' that to choose to set all that aside is demanding a level of youthful spiritual maturity simply absent from our churches these days?

I am at a loss to explain it. Your thoughts?

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Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Last time I looked, the whole question of Vocation within the Anglican Church ( in theory) included Religious Orders.
In practice however....

And
would that even include TSSF?

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Originally posted by fiercecalm:
Thanks for attempting an answer Miffy. I was worrying I'd successfully killed the thread with my very first post

I guess I was also wondering if any of the Tertiaries here present had considered the 1st/2nd orders, but rejected them for some reason - if so, what? Were they already married perhaps? Is it that people hear the call too late in life, or is the monastic vocation simply not considered valuable any more? In my experience even Anglican clergy don't often mention religious life when someone approaches them with a possible sense of vocation. Unsurprisingly such people are quickly shuffled into the (much needed) ordination route.

It's tempting to think things are easier for Catholics than Anglicans, but this thread by the Benedictines at East Hendred says otherwise:-
http://www.ibenedictines.org/2011/02/10/the-invisible-nun/

(and thanks for the welcome Miffy)

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Originally posted by fiercecalm:
Thanks for attempting an answer Miffy. I was worrying I'd successfully killed the thread with my very first post

I guess I was also wondering if any of the Tertiaries here present had considered the 1st/2nd orders, but rejected them for some reason - if so, what?...

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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Please also note that "tertian only" communities are doing well as well. For instance the Iona Community Associates are growing and it has the maximum intake of people to the full membership both for this year and for next iirc.

Jengie

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• Member - who follow a rule and meet in family groups monthly. Family groups having about half a dozen members in each. They also meet bi-annual (iirc) in plenaries where everyone who can attends. This sounds to me as similar to the level of commitment for TSSF
• Associates - who keep the prayer and bible study part of the rule plus also try to donate substantially to the community. However the economic witness is not kept in full as accounting is minimal nor are they any commitment to meeting with others. This I suspect could be seen as TSSF-lite. Better described on this webpage
• Friends- no commitment to any rule, just an interest in the Community and a willingness to pay the annual fee.

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
There are lots of reasons as to why the Tertiary Orders are expanding but the first and second are fading away. There are a lot of very serious issues around concepts of a life-long commitment, and in some ways the Franciscan Orders have been reshaping this over the years. Add to this the pressures of society today - the compulsion to own (particularly property) and the worries that people have regarding how they will be cared for later in life. But all of that aside, i think the biggest hurdle for the Franciscan Orders has always (and possibly always will be) publicity. They have just never done it really; so now they are in a situation where they feel they should, but they are also conscious that people should sense vocation for the right reasons.

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