Thread: Franciscans... support and prayer... Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 
The previous topic has gone!

Today I'm off to St Clare's Freeland, and that's good new website they have, as well as how great it is to be there. maybe some others of the Franciscans will also be there - often they are.

And, of course, I won't be on my computer till next week when I return.
 

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Posted by Margaret (# 283) on :
 
Have a marvellous time, daisymay, and thank you for linking to the new website.

I used to go to Freeland every year for a few days with a friend, but in the past couple of years we haven't got round to it for one reason or another. Looking at the website reminds me I need to do something about that!
 

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Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 
Sister Michaela from Freeland has just died.

She wasn't young, but a wonderful person, as are IMO all the others. God, please help them and comfort them.
 

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Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by daisymay:
The previous topic has gone!

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I remember we had such a thread in the past, but it seems to have vanished into the ether. Carry on here.

Campbellite
All Saints Host
 

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Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
Yes, if our performance on this board has anything to do with it, we Franciscans (of whatever stripe) aren't that communicative. My Theory (Which Is Mine ) is that we're too busy Up And Doing.

Then again, it might just be down to disorganisation and absent mindedness, another part of the Franciscan charism IMHO.
 

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Posted by Garden Hermit (# 109) on :
 
As a tertiary of several (many ?) years I'm just saying 'Hi',

Pax et Bonum
 

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Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
I just attend a Franciscan church.

That makes it really easy.

I do wish everyone well.
 

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Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
for the community at Freeland.

ianjmatt's thread over in Purg touches on the churchmanship of oblate and third order Anglicanism in general. [can't manage link for some reason]. Worth looking at.

Something that's been exercising my mind greatly of late has been the question of how one fosters a sense of community in a dispersed order such as TSSF. Distance, increasing age and a certain reclusivity left over from the era when the order was almost a secret society don't help IMO.
 

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Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 
for the community and family at Freeland.

I'd prefer to have been able to go tomorrow for the funeral, but I'm not well...

God, bless them all.
 

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Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by daisymay:
for the community and family at Freeland.

I'd prefer to have been able to go tomorrow for the funeral, but I'm not well...

God, bless them all.

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Posted by Margaret (# 283) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Miffy:
Something that's been exercising my mind greatly of late has been the question of how one fosters a sense of community in a dispersed order such as TSSF. Distance, increasing age and a certain reclusivity left over from the era when the order was almost a secret society don't help IMO.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Margaret:

quote:

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Originally posted by Miffy:
Something that's been exercising my mind greatly of late has been the question of how one fosters a sense of community in a dispersed order such as TSSF. Distance, increasing age and a certain reclusivity left over from the era when the order was almost a secret society don't help IMO.

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Yes, same here! Our small group has meetings every two months and our area has two meetings a year, but they're not particularly well attended (I'm usually a guilty non-attender, as the group meetings seem to happen when I'm especially busy, and the prospect of sitting discussing a chapter of a devotional book for two hours has limited appeal when you're trying to beat a deadline). The newest member of our group complains that the area meetings are cliquey and unfriendly, and I see just what he means - over lunch people tend to talk with people they already know. I'm fairly good at making small talk with strangers while nibbling a piece of quiche, but I don't really enjoy them either.

I wish we could move away from these very churchy meetings and do things together rather than just talk; I'm sure that would increase our sense of being a community.

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Heavens, Margaret, that doesn't sound particularly encouraging for you or anyone else. I'm, like I suspect, many, pulled between feeling that yes, we do need to work out how to
do more together, and a dislike of the red tape and administerial faffing about that seems to be considered necessary before any initiatives can be taken.

Had you read the feature on TSSF in the latest edition of The Franciscan? It fills in much of the background and history of the order, including the 'hiddeness' of its early days, ( supposedly to do with cultivating humility), which is why it was formerly Not The Done Thing to reveal your membership to anybody outside the order. I'm not sure I'd have lasted five minutes back then! Said 'hiddeness' is also, it seems, one of the reasons why tertiaries don't generally band together in common for specific works or actions. (The same doesn't appear to apply in the First Orders, for reasons that I'm unable to fathom). Any ideas why, anybody?



There's also some thought-provoking research findings on the effectiveness of TSSF in nurturing a Franciscan way of life over on the website.
 

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Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Margaret:
...Yes, same here! Our small group has meetings every two months and our area has two meetings a year, but they're not particularly well attended (I'm usually a guilty non-attender, as the group meetings seem to happen when I'm especially busy, and the prospect of sitting discussing a chapter of a devotional book for two hours has limited appeal when you're trying to beat a deadline). The newest member of our group complains that the area meetings are cliquey and unfriendly, and I see just what he means - over lunch people tend to talk with people they already know. I'm fairly good at making small talk with strangers while nibbling a piece of quiche, but I don't really enjoy them either.

I wish we could move away from these very churchy meetings and do things together rather than just talk; I'm sure that would increase our sense of being a community.

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Interesting points and comment, Margaret.

Ditto yours and attached article, Miffy.

I suspect a lot has to do with whether people want to play at being Franciscan/'religious' or whether the charism has somehow effected them.

You can't have 'religion on tap'. It takes effort.

I did attend one TSSF retreat as a possible member. The people who ran it and some tertiaries seemed pretty good. Others seemed to think it was one of those 'jolly churchy things one does, like belonging to one's parish, where Mavis & I have attended for 40 years'.

There is a great deal of self-obsessed religiosity doing the rounds these days. 'I' am doing 'this'.

I would think you would need some sort of spiritual self-discipline to achieve anything: the ability for regular prayer; Bible reading and worship. It need not be time consuming.

I suspect many people are interested in the sort of minor social chitchat which seems to feature at Morning Tea after the Eucharist. It's the highlight of some people's lives. Going to church to meet their old pals.

Somehow that doesn't ring very 'Franciscan' to me.

It's very much a 'What's in it for me?' approach.

My simple answer would be 'Nothing' or 'Nothing you'd fancy.'

As you know, I attend a Franciscan church. Most of the parish have very little idea of what Franciscans are or do. Many want something out of it. Few look to do unobserved work for it. There are some excellent people but their ranks are thinning.

I suspect Franciscanism means being in the world but not being totally swamped by it. All the Orders have, at times, been swamped and gone under in certain places. I suspect there are areas of light and areas, well...

[code fixed - WW]

[ 30. December 2010, 07:56: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
 

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Posted by Margaret (# 283) on :
 
Thank you both for your thoughts! I managed to find my copy of The Franciscan, which had got overlooked in the pre-Christmas rush, and read that article. The idea of "hiddenness" does make the lack of concerted action easier to understand - and reminds me of a couple of things our former curate, who was professed in 1973 (I think) told me. One older tertiary told her that from then on she'd wear "an invisible wimple" which I'm not sure she was too delighted about; she'd also known a man who was so determined to keep his membership a secret that he hadn't even told his wife - so when he went on a weekend retreat she had no idea where he'd gone and thought he was having an affair!

I'm very thankful things are less secretive now - but I wonder if it's led to a dilution of the ideals of the order?
 

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Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
Simply put, Margaret, I think there are people like yourself and Miffy, who are attracted to spirituality and others who think they are joining a cosy little club. A cosy little club in faux 'Franciscan' garb.
 

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Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Simply put, Margaret, I think there are people like yourself and Miffy, who are attracted to spirituality and others who think they are joining a cosy little club. A cosy little club in faux 'Franciscan' garb.

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Could be, Sir P, could well be; though this is by no means unique to Franciscans, IMO; I'd guess the cliquiness which you mentioned, Margaret is one of the downsides of Anglicanism which you'll find in many settings, inside and outside of the parish. Not everybody has either the patience or the inclination to keep on scratching beneath the surface to find the proverbial heart of gold. I agree, it can put newcomers right off. Humility is all well and good, coldness and snobbery OTOH is just not on.

Going back to my personal journey with the Franciscans, of whatever stripe, my small local group have been a source of support along the way, without which I'd likely have not persevered.
 

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Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
When things work, they work, Miffy.

It doesn't require a deeper explanation.
 

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Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
When things work, they work, Miffy.

It doesn't require a deeper explanation.

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"God moves in a mysterious way," I guess.
 

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Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
As a tertiary of several (many ?) years I'm just saying 'Hi',

Pax et Bonum

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Excuse double post; I keep meaning to say 'hi' back, GH.

daisymay, thanks for the link to the new Freeland site. I read that there are some drop-on Quiet Days scheduled at the Old Parsonage. Must investigate. Who knows, after nearly four years plus around the Franciscans, I may get to visit the place at last.
 

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Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
I'm bumping this up, not making a triple post.

If we're pondering Francsican callling, motivations for, The Mercy Blog has just posted up some relevant and thought-provoking thoughts.
 

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Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Campbellite:

quote:

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Originally posted by daisymay:
The previous topic has gone!

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I remember we had such a thread in the past, but it seems to have vanished into the ether. Carry on here.

Campbellite
All Saints Host

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quote:

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Originally posted by Miffy:

I wondered about the experiences of folk posting here with Third Order Francsican links. Or Benedictine oblates/Dominicans, (Rosamundi, where are you?) Do others in your church have a particular expectations of you? Do you yourself?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Qoheleth.:

quote:

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Originally posted by Miffy:

I wondered about the experiences of folk posting here with Third Order Francsican links. Or Benedictine oblates/Dominicans, (Rosamundi, where are you?) Do others in your church have a particular expectations of you? Do you yourself?

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My recognition of a specifically Benedictine vocation developed alongside the role I was already growing into locally. Then, once it became evident that I wouldn't be entering licensed ministry, people had somewhere else to classify me. The four times a year when I preach, I cast off my usual blue choir cassock for a black Benedictine one.

So, from the perspective of the parish, oblature is about affirming what Q. is already doing. I think it therefore reinforces any expectations, rather than generating them. For me, oblates aim to foster the Benedictine charism, so I expect that I will - in the parish (and the workplace).

I guess it would be very different to be moving into a new parish as an existing oblate?

Does that help?

Q.
(OblSB)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Miffy:
So, were you to move to a different parish, your Benedictine vocation would in no way be negated; the way in which you express the charism would essentially remain the same, though maybe with a different nuance to it, depending on the setting and needs of your new church.

Does that sound right?

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Yes, I think so.

We have, of course, no national oblate structure akin to a Franciscan Order of tertiaries. As dispersed Benedictines, our affiliation is to a specific monastery. So ISTM we tend to be used to living out our vocation as solitaries!

Stability, obedience and conversio morum
Poverty and chastity are optional

Q.
 

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Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 

quote:

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Stability, obedience and conversio morum
Poverty and chastity are optional

Q. [/QB]

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It's a matter of wording, isn't it?

quote:

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When Saint Francis encouraged the formation of The Third Order he recognised that many are called to serve God in the spirit of Poverty, Chastity, and Obedience in everyday life (rather than in a literal acceptance of these principles as in the vows of the Brothers and Sisters of the First and Second Orders). The Rule of The Third Order is intended to enable the duties and conditions of daily living to be carried out in this spirit.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Miffy:

quote:

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Stability, obedience and conversio morum
Poverty and chastity are optional

Q.

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It's a matter of wording, isn't it?

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Exactly. The latter derive naturally from the former.
 

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Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Qoheleth.:

quote:

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Originally posted by Miffy:
So, were you to move to a different parish, your Benedictine vocation would in no way be negated; the way in which you express the charism would essentially remain the same, though maybe with a different nuance to it, depending on the setting and needs of your new church.

Does that sound right?

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Yes, I think so.

We have, of course, no national oblate structure akin to a Franciscan Order of tertiaries. As dispersed Benedictines, our affiliation is to a specific monastery. So ISTM we tend to be used to living out our vocation as solitaries!

Stability, obedience and conversio morum
Poverty and chastity are optional

Q.

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quote:

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Originally posted by fiercecalm:
Hello all. I am intrigued by this question of what people 'hope for' or feel they can 'offer' by becoming Franciscan or by becoming a Tertiary. Some are clearly looking for 'community' or some kind of spiritual 'vehicle' which might help them develop virtue or inspire & help them to get involved in social action.

But it makes me wonder, why is the Third Order growing so successfully in numbers while the 1st and 2nd orders seem to be gradually withering? Is the call of marriage, children and career so ubiquitously powerful that no one can even consider these other orders?

Have we changed somehow as a culture since the waves of novices of the 50s, 60s and 70s? The size of the Third Order would suggest that Franciscan spirituality is as popular as ever, so why do people think vowed religious are becoming so few and far between (whether Anglican or RC, active or enclosed)?

I for one certainly don't want the 1st and 2nd orders to die out, but I'm at loss as to figure out what the problem is. Is it perhaps just a case of 'marketing'? Ie no one knows about these things until they've gone the marriage route? But why would the religious life be so attractive to young men and women 40 years ago but almost irrelevant today? Or has our celebrity & fame & wealth culture made it impossible for anyone in their 20s to consider giving their life away? Perhaps there is so much opportunity out there 'in the world' that to choose to set all that aside is demanding a level of youthful spiritual maturity simply absent from our churches these days?

I am at a loss to explain it. Your thoughts?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Last time I looked, the whole question of Vocation within the Anglican Church ( in theory) included Religious Orders.
In practice however....

And
would that even include TSSF?

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Agreed, agreed, and to be blunt, not really. Last time I checked our diocesan website, for example, it had improved it's coverage. (see 'Pathways to Ministry' flowchart and linked articles), but my impression that one still needs to know what to look for and to be in contact with the appropriate people, to begin with.

Which begs the perennial question - how does one begin to discern a vocation if you're unaware of its existence in the first place?
http://www.oxford.anglican.org/ministry/vocations/

(hosts apols - Chrome isn't letting me use instant UBB).
 

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Posted by fiercecalm (# 16163) on :
 
Thanks for attempting an answer Miffy. I was worrying I'd successfully killed the thread with my very first post

I guess I was also wondering if any of the Tertiaries here present had considered the 1st/2nd orders, but rejected them for some reason - if so, what? Were they already married perhaps? Is it that people hear the call too late in life, or is the monastic vocation simply not considered valuable any more? In my experience even Anglican clergy don't often mention religious life when someone approaches them with a possible sense of vocation. Unsurprisingly such people are quickly shuffled into the (much needed) ordination route.

It's tempting to think things are easier for Catholics than Anglicans, but this thread by the Benedictines at East Hendred says otherwise:-
http://www.ibenedictines.org/2011/02/10/the-invisible-nun/

(and thanks for the welcome Miffy)
 

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Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by fiercecalm:
Thanks for attempting an answer Miffy. I was worrying I'd successfully killed the thread with my very first post

I guess I was also wondering if any of the Tertiaries here present had considered the 1st/2nd orders, but rejected them for some reason - if so, what? Were they already married perhaps? Is it that people hear the call too late in life, or is the monastic vocation simply not considered valuable any more? In my experience even Anglican clergy don't often mention religious life when someone approaches them with a possible sense of vocation. Unsurprisingly such people are quickly shuffled into the (much needed) ordination route.

It's tempting to think things are easier for Catholics than Anglicans, but this thread by the Benedictines at East Hendred says otherwise:-
http://www.ibenedictines.org/2011/02/10/the-invisible-nun/

(and thanks for the welcome Miffy)

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quote:

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Originally posted by fiercecalm:
Thanks for attempting an answer Miffy. I was worrying I'd successfully killed the thread with my very first post

I guess I was also wondering if any of the Tertiaries here present had considered the 1st/2nd orders, but rejected them for some reason - if so, what?...

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No, but I may have done so by my response to you, which was meant to make you think, but may have had you scuttling for cover, thinking you were under some sort of assault, which I assure you was not so.

To cut to the chase, I am not a Franciscan tertiary but attend the one Anglican Franciscan Church in Australia and have known the Brothers well for about 30 years, so I think I can tell you why they appear to have so few successful candidates for the 1st Order (the Clares folded here a while ago).

They do have postulants but many fail to make the grade and are rejected or drop out. They are a bit like the Royal Marines: you do have to pass the selection process and that is not easy. They do require the utmost personal integrity and commitment and poverty, celibacy and obedience are not popular virtues in the modern world. Neither is living a dedicated religious life nor their social outreach to those not normally welcome in the faux genteel Anglican churches around here. Many people appear to want to live a romanticised 'Christlike life' without getting their hands dirty.

We Australians tend to be terribly materialistic and I suspect most bright young men eyeing the religious life would prefer the comfy package of A$90,000.00 (about A$54,000.00 salary + house + super + utilities + car allowance) you get in a normal parish.

Sad, isn't it?

Whether the life of a friar or nun is attractive, or even seen as relevant in the modern context, are both moot points.

I sometimes feel the late Michel Quoist, a sadly underrated Catholic thinker of the last century, may have been right in saying he thought we should concentrate on developing a religious life suited to married people rather than celibates (he was no fan of Opus Dei). Sadly contemporary High Church Anglicans tend not, in my opinion, to think of something of this sort.

He was, I believe, thinking of something quite new and contemporary, not necessarily the old tertiary setup.

I sometimes idly wonder whether many tertiaries of any sort could not make up their own religious rule and be religiously self-supporting like Julian of Norwich. It's a path I've found I've had to develop myself. I wonder if some of you considered it?
 

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Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
There are lots of reasons as to why the Tertiary Orders are expanding but the first and second are fading away. There are a lot of very serious issues around concepts of a life-long commitment, and in some ways the Franciscan Orders have been reshaping this over the years. Add to this the pressures of society today - the compulsion to own (particularly property) and the worries that people have regarding how they will be cared for later in life. But all of that aside, i think the biggest hurdle for the Franciscan Orders has always (and possibly always will be) publicity. They have just never done it really; so now they are in a situation where they feel they should, but they are also conscious that people should sense vocation for the right reasons.

There are issues too of the particular roles of those in the religious life. Once the job is done, or once the task is taken up respectably and well by someone else, there is no real need for them anymore. In some cases this means that particular little 'cell groups' naturally die out, and in a way that is the aim (odd as that might sound). In other situations too, where the church is predominantly 'low' there can be a deep suspicion of Orders which makes the task much more difficult or even fatally doomed. For instance, I know many tertiary's in Northern Ireland that even today keep their membership a secret and advertise their presence lightly. That makes it very difficult because something that should be quite public is all a bit cloak and dagger, which defeats the purpose of being a tertiary to some degree.

In short, I don't think it's quite so simple as saying that modern materialism is killing Orders, but certainly aspects of modern living (particularly in the West) are making it more difficult.
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
Miffy: your blunt reply made me laugh!

'Franciscans support and prayer' is what this thread is and so i am going to be very careful not to de-rail it in any way.

Just an observation: Over the years i have watched many folk wrestling with a call / a vocation ...to something. And having not much idea what, beyond that it should be/ has to be/ obviously is to ordination.

And if not, then the nudge ( if it's anything at all beyond cheese late at night or an overactive imagination) must be for reader or church army. Or it's not a call/ vocation/ nudge at all.

Indeed. I wonder how many are totally lost to a lay religious order, merely because it's never been mentioned/ known about/ talked of/ put forward as an option early on in the whole process?

I should declare my interest here, as I am just starting out on that tentative slow paddle towards TSSF and very much wondering if it is or is not somewhere for me.......
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
Fierce calm: in answer to your questions and wonderings:
No i had not considered the first or second orders, not even when young and unmarried. Because I figured that nuns were something other and holy and I knew nowt of them. At All. Just not on the horizon.

i had considered ordination, but for a raft of reasons not least health related, that is not looking to be taken any further right now. If ever.

But what does one do when that niggle, that nudge, that honest to goodness "shove" just won't go away?
In my case i contacted TSSF .....
 

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Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
Well, I hope you find your spiritual home somewhere, Ethne Alba.

St Francis, of course, did not start off wanting to be a religious person of any sort. He wanted to be a knight. His direction was changed from Up Above and he slowly realised it.

Hopefully you will receive and follow something from Up Above.
 

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Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Please also note that "tertian only" communities are doing well as well. For instance the Iona Community Associates are growing and it has the maximum intake of people to the full membership both for this year and for next iirc.

Jengie

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• Member - who follow a rule and meet in family groups monthly. Family groups having about half a dozen members in each. They also meet bi-annual (iirc) in plenaries where everyone who can attends. This sounds to me as similar to the level of commitment for TSSF
• Associates - who keep the prayer and bible study part of the rule plus also try to donate substantially to the community. However the economic witness is not kept in full as accounting is minimal nor are they any commitment to meeting with others. This I suspect could be seen as TSSF-lite. Better described on this webpage
• Friends- no commitment to any rule, just an interest in the Community and a willingness to pay the annual fee.

quote:

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
There are lots of reasons as to why the Tertiary Orders are expanding but the first and second are fading away. There are a lot of very serious issues around concepts of a life-long commitment, and in some ways the Franciscan Orders have been reshaping this over the years. Add to this the pressures of society today - the compulsion to own (particularly property) and the worries that people have regarding how they will be cared for later in life. But all of that aside, i think the biggest hurdle for the Franciscan Orders has always (and possibly always will be) publicity. They have just never done it really; so now they are in a situation where they feel they should, but they are also conscious that people should sense vocation for the right reasons.

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That's much the way I see it too. Like you I think actually at the moment the main problem is lack of publicity, particularly for Anglican monastic orders, which most people assume don't exist. If you're not aware of monks, friars and nuns while you're at school, chances are you'll be into marriage, kids and career before you notice such things. For myself, I had a former Trappist monk as a school teacher and from that time I was always aware of (and fascinated by) monasticism as a potential vocation (and just assumed - rightly as it turned out - that there were Anglican religious).

I suspect that lack of awareness of monasticism at a young(er) age is the key problem, but of course our culture of celebrity, wealth, beauty and sexuality seems to become continually better at hooking children ever more quickly.

For those who have the gift of a vocation, lifelong poverty, chastity and obedience probably doesn't seem like much of a downside! (Lifelong vows don't really put people off do they?)

Sorry if all this is slightly off topic.
 

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Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
I don't think you're 'off the topic', fiercecalm.

It would seem to me that you wish to clarify, within a supportive circle, what you are thinking.

Putting something in writing helps clarify things. What you say makes sense.

Have confidence in yourself. Don't be diffident. Many would agree with you. You are not alone.
 

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Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
Yanking this thread up again by its elastic to highlight Kingsfold's thread on a rule of life.


http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=005054;p=1#000016

[apols Chrome not letting me use instant UBB again, and there's no way I'm going to enter all this manually]
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
I am pulling this thread up in order to share this marvelous article about a pair of Franciscan brothers, twins, who worked at St. Bonaventure University in New York.

May they rest in peace and rise in glory.
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
such a great read...........i've sat with this story for a while now and each day had cause to think again.

reading back on this thread ( and thank you for bumping it up) the question of Why People Come Into ...esp I think we were looking at ....TSSF, the third order/ And I guess I am interested about other people's journey.

For me, there has been lots of change over the past ten years and there might well be even more change yet to come.
In the middle of this I have found a deep desire for some regular pattern...a discipline if you like.

I explored a number of related groups and ( for perfectly proper and understandable reasons) the "fit" wasn't quite there. Usually and unexpectedly these were often very practical reasons that negated taking matters any further.

So, couldn't just daily offices or having a rule of life outside of an order have done it?
In theory~ yes
In practice~ no!

This is an old idea ...for me anyway. But it's been a fascinating journey so far and one that appears to have opened up possibilities ...in me as a person...that i would never have dreamt of before.

And the whole thing of occasionally being Out of my natural churchmanship is ( i think anyway) always a good idea
 

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Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
...and 'hup!'

For those UK Third Order folk who don't already know, there is going to be a small TO presence at Greenbelt this year. Watch out for us at the TSSF stall in G Source.
 

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Posted by Jane Morley (# 14235) on :
 
Hi all

Have eventually caught up with myself enough to start conversing on here again...!

Good luck with Greenbelt!

Have been reading through the stuff about fostering a sense of community within TSSF local groups while avoiding them becoming cosy little clubs. So, what is the uniquely Franciscan flavour that should characterize our meetings?

Mutual support? In the form of prayerful, practical, humane and compassionate responses to each other...? Coupled with encouraging each other to face the challenge posed by Francis' and Clare's particular way of following Christ, i.e. 'gospel imperatives' (what are they?)? Something like identification with poor, rejected and marginalized people? Plus worship of God in and above all things. The shared delight and joy of recognizing God in all creatures, however humble; and the shared pain of witnessing (and colluding with) the destruction and degradation of these creatures and our planet home.

The purpose of the local groups should surely be to enable each Tertiary to be sent out to live the challenge of the Franciscan 'take' on the gospel in his/her own context, bolstered by each other's prayers and love.

This may well be a lot of 'hot air' with not much substance, would anyone care to comment, and perhaps 'ground' my thoughts a bit? We've had lots of discussions in our local group along the lines of previous thoughts on this thread about fostering community and attracting younger people, without much conclusion...

Ethne Alba, am interested in your 'faith journey' question. I was brought up in a middle-of-the-road C o E church; then I asked to join the Sisters at Compton Durville; got rejected because I had been in a psychiatric hospital (!); eventually found my way into the local Quaker Meeting where I stayed for 14 years; but this Franciscan thing wouldn't let me go, so I came back to C o E and joined TSSF in 2007.

Sorry for long ramble - and also for being so unadventurous back when I joined about thinking of an entertaining username - I understand I can't now change it!!

In Christ

Jane
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
The experience of something just not letting us go....is ( to my way of thinking anyway) absolutely worth exploring further.
After all, what's the worst that can happen? Folk say no? Well that's one less door to attempt to go through then.
I do know that for me TSSF is a community that ( if I choose to allow it) does force me to reflect on my life and my living...asks some hard questions of me...but also invites me to move on, with others.

The meetings? Well now, I'm so new that it's all still a mystery to me.....
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jane Morley:
Sorry for long ramble - and also for being so unadventurous back when I joined about thinking of an entertaining username - I understand I can't now change it!!

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Jane Morley:

Have been reading through the stuff about fostering a sense of community within TSSF local groups while avoiding them becoming cosy little clubs. So, what is the uniquely Franciscan flavour that should characterize our meetings?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jane Morley:
Sorry for long ramble - and also for being so unadventurous back when I joined about thinking of an entertaining username - I understand I can't now change it!!

---

Jane

Keep your eyes skint there have been rumours of a name amnesty* happening some time soon.

Jengie


*name amnesty is a short spell of time when we can change our user names on the ship. There are normally rules such as put a link to your original name in your sig.

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Thanks Jengie, where will name-amnesty be announced when it happens?

Jane
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
They will announce it in the Styx board.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :
 
It seems appropriate to say this here.

Brother Colin Wilfred SSF died yesterday. He'd been ill for a while.

For the repose of his soul, and may he rest in peace and rise in glory.
 

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Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :
 
Happy St Clare's Day to all Franciscans!
 

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Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Japes:
Happy St Clare's Day to all Franciscans!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Japes:
It seems appropriate to say this here.

Brother Colin Wilfred SSF died yesterday. He'd been ill for a while.

For the repose of his soul, and may he rest in peace and rise in glory.

---

Lux perpetua luceat ei.

His Requiem was at lunchtime today. He was a great friend of the other Tertiary in our parish, and preached one Ash Wednesday for us while visiting his friend.

Carys
 

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Posted by Aelred of Riveaux (# 12833) on :
 
Indeed, Happy St. Clare's day to all. Do any of the groups you are involved with do anything particular for the feast? Here in Cambridge, we traditionally have an outdoor eucharist and picnic at Denny Abbey - a ruined abbey (Franciscan I think) on the road to Ely, which is now a farmland museum. Last year we were joined in the hymns by some cows, and were glad of the museum farmhouse when it came on to rain. This is happening on Saturday and is usually a joyous occasion.

May Brother Colin Wilfrid rest in peace and rise in glory. Praying for the brothers and his family and friends.
 

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Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aelred of Riveaux:
Indeed, Happy St. Clare's day to all. Do any of the groups you are involved with do anything particular for the feast? Here in Cambridge, we traditionally have an outdoor eucharist and picnic at Denny Abbey - a ruined abbey (Franciscan I think) on the road to Ely, which is now a farmland museum. Last year we were joined in the hymns by some cows, and were glad of the museum farmhouse when it came on to rain. This is happening on Saturday and is usually a joyous occasion.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Miffy:
...and 'hup!'

For those UK Third Order folk who don't already know, there is going to be a small TO presence at Greenbelt this year. Watch out for us at the TSSF stall in G Source.

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The clacking of hostly secateurs approacheth, hence the bump up.

I thoroughly enjoyed my stints on the TO stall at Greenbelt. Plenty people stopped to make enquiries, browse through our literature and just to chat. I had some really inspiring conversations there.

It was also good - if amusing - to note how many tertiaries, apart from those of us involved with the organisation of the stall - were there 'incognito' but who sidled by and 'outed' themselves when they realised we were there!
Taint always easy to meet with TO folk out of one's immediate area; (come to think of it, it isn't that easy to maintain contact with tertiaries within our own areas). I came away feeling quite encouraged.

Should any of the organisers be lurking here, this was definitely A Good Idea and I'm looking forward to next year's stint.
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
There's still a whole heap of Keeping Quiet About It going on though....I was never around at the stage when it was considered a good thing to be secretive.

Q: Rule of Life.
How complicated did anyone make it at first?
Or rather, how simple can it be at the begining?
 

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Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :
 
Much better for a Rule of Life to be simple, and one you can stick to, than over-complicating it and feeling guilty about what you haven't done!
 

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Posted by Jane Morley (# 14235) on :
 
Has anyone else heard of the idea of drafting 2 Rules, one of aspirations to be aimed at, and one simple basic Rule as a foundation for every day, especially bad ones? 2 people have independently suggested this to me. Perhaps the most important thing is to be practical and concrete about finding one's way to a Rule that is about one's own set of circumstances, not some cardboard cutout of what a Tertiary SHOULD be doing. The Basic Rule given to Postulants is helpful as a template, but the detail needs to be worked out by each person.

On another tack - how do people manage to get a balance between 'Action' and 'Contemplation' in their lives, as Richard Rohr suggests? Has he gone too far down the 'Contemplative' road and lost the 'Active' edge to his ministry? See www.cacradicalgrace.org

Jane
 

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Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :
 
Now I've prayed First Evening Prayer, and the Transitus, it's time to wish all Franciscans, of whichever variety, a happy, holy and blessed St. Francis Day.

Have fun celebrating.


 

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Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
A blessed Francistide

 

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Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
Blessings from a Benedictine!
 

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Posted by Aelred of Riveaux (# 12833) on :
 
Happy Francistide everyone! May you all have a joyful festival.
 

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Posted by Aelred of Riveaux (# 12833) on :
 
Sorry for the double post.

Thanks for the Francistide greetings from the Benedictine end of things.

We have an icon of Francis and Benedict in our Church as it is dedicated to St. Benedict but has a longstanding connection with the (Anglican) Franciscans, so I've quite a soft spot for Benedict too.
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
Humour me....( please)...

Lots of people use words for everything.
And a rule of life is...words based.
But....a wonder...does it have to be?

( like i said, humour me...i'm learning...)
 

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Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Humour me....( please)...

Lots of people use words for everything.
And a rule of life is...words based.
But....a wonder...does it have to be?

( like i said, humour me...i'm learning...)

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quote:

---

Encircle me O God
keep violence without
keep a quiet spirit within.

Encircle me O God:
Keep pride without;
Keep vulnerability within.

Encircle me O God:
Keep love of security without;
Keep generosity of spirit within.

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quote:

---

part of Micah 6:8
walk humbly with your God

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which I find intensely challenging as a way of living, when I have sussed this I might add the other parts of the verse.

I suspect a novice master may want to add commentary around about the perceived implications of such a rule.

Jengie

[ 07. October 2011, 14:24: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 

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Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
Franciscan Rules tend to be mainly practical - so they are very much doable and liveable rather than being something you have to strive towards all the time (there can be elements of this though).
 

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Posted by crynwrcymraeg (# 13018) on :
 
i long fir a deeper spirituality - your words re encouraging to me

thanks
 

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Posted by crynwrcymraeg (# 13018) on :
 
i long fir a deeper spirituality - your words re encouraging to me

thanks

in Your great love
answer me O God

(wonder what flood proection on here is and why it be ...)passing the 120 seconds ..dum de dum ....Ave
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
( and bumping again)

Postulant in the new year....i suppose this is a litle bit further than exploring now
 

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Posted by Aelred of Riveaux (# 12833) on :
 
Wishing you every blessing on your continuing journey Ethne.
 

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Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
Blessing on your journey Ethne.

Can I ask for prayers for Tony, who's a tertiary and worships at my church who has been diagnosed with a brain tumour and is now on palliative care. And for his partner Phil.

Carys
 

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Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
New Year Greetings to everyone.


I can see some of you Franciscans logged on atm, so, before a broom-wielding host appears - do we want this thread to continue in 2012? Imo I do value the support and insights, even if we do spend much of the time down in the bowels of the Ship.

 

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Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 
Happy New Year to all you Franciscans!

This is not a huge, long, "posts" and maybe it would be fine to keep it for 2012.
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
I have no thoughts of sweeping this thread away, or the Benedictine one, I think they are both valuable just as they are.
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
*BUMP* for the reason above.
 

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Posted by Aelred of Riveaux (# 12833) on :
 
Has anyone else seen this video of the First Order SSF Brothers in Papua New Guinea?

It is interesting and moving to learn about our Brothers and Sisters in other provinces.

Pax et Bonum,

Rachel
 

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Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
good vid - thanks
 

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Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
I think you should keep the thread alive most definitely, Miffy.

Even informal association with the Brothers at a parish helps me realise Christianity is alive.


 

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Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
*slips below thread, tucks in head and then BUMP!*

[ 02. June 2012, 14:53: Message edited by: Gwai ]
 

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Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 
The Franciscans at Freeland do a lot of work outdoors, and they have a Blog here to show lots of flowers and creatures etc. It sounds and looks as if it's not too much rain...
 

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Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 
But no doubt it must have been bad for them. I hope they are having a good time now.
 

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Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :
 
As I'm about to go and say Evening Prayer, and the Office of the Transitus, it's time to wish all Franciscans a happy and blessed feast day!

[ 03. October 2012, 17:38: Message edited by: Japes ]
 

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Posted by Aelred of Riveaux (# 12833) on :
 
And, slightly belatedly, to you Japes. I hope you had a joyful Francistide!
 

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Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :
 
I'm interested to read this thread... I'm hoping to build going on retreat into my routine going forward and the place I have in mind for the spring is a Franciscan monastery in the UK.

Nen - off to find the Benedictine thread.
 

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Posted by Aelred of Riveaux (# 12833) on :
 
Welcome, Nenya. I hope you have a refreshing retreat.
 

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Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 
May all the Franciscans have a good time at Christmas and New Year! And lets hope also that they are good and able to "teach" people about Jesus and the love from God.
 

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Posted by Mary LA (# 17040) on :
 
Noticing this thread for the first time -- the Secular Franciscan Order is very active in South Africa
 

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Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 
And also I hope the ones in UK are managing with all the cold and water so that they can, particularly some who are quite "old" now are managing their lives and being taking care of them.
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Do the Freeland sisters offer spiritual direction?

Thurible
 

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Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :
 
I'm sure they don't, at least, none of them did when I knew them well a few years ago.
 

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Posted by Margaret (# 283) on :
 
Perhaps they're just very discreet about it? I know that our former curate had one of the sisters as her SD until she died four or five years ago - but I think it was a very long-standing arrangement and perhaps they don't take people on any more. It might be worth enquiring, though.
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Thanks.

Thurible
 

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Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
Bump

[ 08. June 2013, 15:24: Message edited by: Qoheleth. ]
 

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Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
<retrieved from under the sofa>
 

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Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 
And it's very cold nowadays in UK and they must feel cold when working outside. Maybe people who stay with them are staying inside, not walking around very much.
They do give us excellent food also!
 

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