Ship of Fools: A baby named Messiah

Thread: A baby named Messiah Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on :

Seven months ago (more or less) a single mother of (now) three named her latest baby Messiah. It is apparently a name growing in popularity as it was the fourth most popular name for new babies in 2012.

The baby is (temporarily) named Martin now because of a child support judge in (I hate to admit it) East Tennessee who said Messiah was a title earned by only one person and not by this kid.*

Somewhat not surprisingly the ACLU is offering to help change the kid's name back to Messiah.

The judge has a point, but apparently usually wears a hat. Sorry, no, that is wrong. I did it, but it was wrong.

My question for all you happy campers is: Is it really wrong?

Truthfully, the judge did have a point. How is a kid named Messiah going to get along in school in small town East Tennessee? Is it fair of the mother to subject her son to all that? Going from there, is it fair of any parent to name their kid a name that is going to give them problems in life?

_______
*Please note the accents of both the judge and the mother. Pure East Tennessee. God help us.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Is it fair of the mother to subject her son to all that? Going from there, is it fair of any parent to name their kid a name that is going to give them problems in life?

No, it's not fair of the child's parents to name him "Messiah," but the judge was still wrong - both parents were agreed on the silly name, and were only in dispute on the surname.

If the parents were in dispute on the forenames, it would be reasonable for the judge to side with the parent who didn't like "Messiah" as a name.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

I don't know if there's an large group of Mexican farm workers in Tennessee but is the name Messiah going to stand out in the middle of all the kids named Jesus?

Parents get to name their kids. The kid gets to subvert that as early as possible. The judge was wrong to change it.

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

While I'm not a fan of Messiah as a first name, I've got to wonder what this judge would do with a Latino-American baby named Jesus.

In the United States, individual freedom generally means the freedom, within reason, to do things that other people think are dumb -- to name your children Dweezil or Moon Unit or North West or Apple or Messiah.

I remember reading the memoirs of a young woman born to commune-dwelling hippie parents who gave her some sort of bizarre 60's name. When she hit junior high school, she simply started calling herself a popular name, and got it legally changed when she turned 18. I'm guessing this happens a lot among children of excessively "creative" parents.

Posted by basso (# 4228) on :

Speaking of boys named Jesus, a Hispanic friend of mine asked me what I thought about his cousins' decision to name their new child Jehovah.

I don't think he knew the biblical history of the name, but he had a strong sense that it was a pretty odd choice.

Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Seven months ago (more or less) a single mother of (now) three named her latest baby Messiah. It is apparently a name growing in popularity as it was the fourth most popular name for new babies in 2012.

Where is it that popular? According to the Social Security Administration , it ranked only(!) 387th in the US in 2012.

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

Not sure whether they're apocryphal or not, but I've heard missionary stories about newly evangelised parents giving their kids names such as Acts and First Thessalonians.

No sillier, I suppose, than Puritans giving their kids names such as Flee Fornication.

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :

The judge is clearly in the wrong. And Messiah is no weirder a name than I run into daily at work with the public (I'm a librarian, for those who don't know.)

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:

quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Seven months ago (more or less) a single mother of (now) three named her latest baby Messiah. It is apparently a name growing in popularity as it was the fourth most popular name for new babies in 2012.
Where is it that popular? According to the Social Security Administration , it ranked only(!) 387th in the US in 2012.

In the article I read a few days ago, they said that it was the fourth fastest-growing name in popularity. Not the fourth most popular name.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Not sure whether they're apocryphal or not, but I've heard missionary stories about newly evangelised parents giving their kids names such as Acts and First Thessalonians.

No sillier, I suppose, than Puritans giving their kids names such as Flee Fornication.

Or Soviets giving their kids names like "Electrification" and "Industrialisation" and "Ninel" (Lenin spelled backwards).

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

It is important to consider what problems the child may face at school later on. I went to school with Marietta Grubb (try saying that aloud) and the poor girl's life was made miserable by her classmates. I also knew of a Purification Tubb, Ferdinand Flowerdew and a little girl named Wild Rose who became Wild Bull when she married.

Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :

Or to translate in numbers 762 kids in the US born last year were named Messiah. About the same number as were named Scott and Helen. Jacob was the most popular boy's name at 18,899 babies (Sophia, the most popular girl's name, was given to 22,158). One can also check out popularity per state but only the first 100 names (William and Emma in Tennessee but Messiah didn't break the top 100 there).

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
It is important to consider what problems the child may face at school later on. I went to school with Marietta Grubb (try saying that aloud) and the poor girl's life was made miserable by her classmates. I also knew of a Purification Tubb, Ferdinand Flowerdew and a little girl named Wild Rose who became Wild Bull when she married.

I went to school with a girl named Isabella Flake who inexplicably went by "Isa."

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

As soon as it's abbreviated it'll no doubt be perfect.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

OK, it's aiming a little higher, but is it a name different in kind to Duke or Earl? I've read that those names - along with Judge - were popular among poor and/or black parents because they represented ranks their children were unlikely to attain for real.

In the case of the first two certainly, I get the impression they have detached from their original references and become simply names.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

Different places have different attitudes to naming babies, and different laws. In Germany, you must be able to tell the gender of the child by the first name, and the name chosen must not negatively affect the well being of the child. I think France has the strictest rules?

As a school teacher I have seen many crazy names, which led me to give mine very steady, ordinary names. They can then choose to call themselves what they wish. I haven't been known by my given name since I was two years old.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

Here is a book for you to enjoy

[Smile]

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

Oh dear - did anyone else have a certain line from a well-loved film come to mind?
When this child misbehaves, will anyone shout out, "He's not (the) Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"?

Of course he shouldn't be called Messiah - that's not a name it's a specific and 'loaded' title.
As far as calling a child Jesus well, Jesus/Yeshua/Joshua is such a common name that I guess whenever Mary called Jesus in for tea half a dozen boys looked up!

[ 18. August 2013, 08:10: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on :

There is no question in my mind that the judge exceeded her authority and violated her oath of office when she changed that child's name.

That the mother named her child Messiah was also, in my opinion, a bad thing. Even as it is the fourth most popular upcoming name (my bad before) it is still spectacularly thoughtless of the mother.

In high school I once got hold of the grades for the seniors for the year. (Careless band director) The child with the lowest grades was named Lurton Hinkle. I don't know if his name was a contributing factor to his low grades, but it could be. It is more likely that he was raised by parents who would name a child Lurton Hinkle. Just like life may be hard for a child whose mother would name him Messiah.

The judge did, by the way, address Jesus as a name by claiming it had nothing to do with the topic at hand. Clever ploy, that. There is a world of difference in a culturally normed name like Jesus and a clearly mother's agenda name like Messiah. The fact that both have religious connections is a distraction from the point of not saddling your child with a dufus name.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

From the link in the OP:

quote:
Martin responded saying, "I was shocked. I never intended on naming my son Messiah because it means God and I didn't think a judge could make me change my baby's name because of her religious beliefs."

If someone chooses a name unaware of its connotations I think it's a kindness to point it out. I went to school with a David Livingstone whose not-very-bright parents had never heard of the missionary. Even some of the teachers referred to him as "I presume."

However, enforcing a name change is wrong.

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

Saddling your child with a dufus name is, IMHO, one of the many , many things that are unwise but not illegal and I think it should stay that way.

Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on :

quote:

originally posted by Tortuf

Just like life may be hard for a child whose mother would name him Messiah.

He may grow up to play in the NFL Tortuf, as I see Cleveland has signed a player called Barkevious Mingo.

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

Tortuf wrote:

quote:
There is a world of difference in a culturally normed name like Jesus and a clearly mother's agenda name like Messiah.

Just an observation, but in the anglosphere(which these days may not include certain parts of the USA), I would have to say that there is a pretty big taboo against naming a kid Jesus. Where I come from, western Canada, I never heard of anyone having that as a first name.

Granted, there was this American guy, but he had a Mexican mother. I wonder if he got any grief about his name in the waspy mileu he functioned in.

I remember the premier episode of the short-lived American sitcom Condo, about WASPs living next door to hispanics. One of the jokes depended on the anglo being offended that the hispanic guy's name was Jesus.

Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :

quote:
There is a world of difference in a culturally normed name like Jesus and a clearly mother's agenda name like Messiah.

Except that over the past few years not a few parents in the US (as in over a 1,000) have named their children 'Messiah'. Perhaps there are already kids in the mother's community called that. In the US it is the parents who choose the given name(s) so it will always be the mother's agenda or father's agenda or both. Sometimes new names take off (where did 'Jayden' come from? from nowhere in 1994 to top 10 in the last 4 years); sometimes they don't. The name 'Messiah' is not solely associated with a villain or something vile (in which case I would hope the state would investigate the family situation and not just change the name).

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
In the United States, individual freedom generally means the freedom, within reason, to do things that other people think are dumb -- to name your children Dweezil or Moon Unit .

The name isn't the problem, asking your 12 year old daughter Moon Unit if she'd like her own flat in order to have sex with boys.... Yet kids manage to survive '70s celebrity parenting.

I don't have any problem with unusual children's names, not even the child called Jehovah. (Not unless the spelling was YHWH.)

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Oh dear - did anyone else have a certain line from a well-loved film come to mind?
When this child misbehaves, will anyone shout out, "He's not (the) Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"?

First thing I thought when I saw the thread title!

Posted by Pearl B4 Swine (# 11451) on :

I think the judge (all judges really) should butt out of "approving" peoples' names. My current favorite is Goodluck Jonathan, of Nigeria. Makes me smile every time I hear it.

In mythical Lake Woe-be-gone a Mom and Dad thinking positively, named their son "Senator", and their daughter "Sister".

Get over it, Tennessee. Sheesh.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

A (Latin American) friend of mine is called Jesus. He does get in trouble with his wife though every time a car passes by with a blonde driver and an "I ♥ Jesus" sticker on the bumper.

[ 19. August 2013, 12:19: Message edited by: LeRoc ]

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
I think the judge (all judges really) should butt out of "approving" peoples' names. My current favorite is Goodluck Jonathan, of Nigeria. Makes me smile every time I hear it.

In many parts of Africa this is very common. From their perspective, naming your kid Goodluck makes more sense than William, a name that's not traditional to them.

I met a Godson (pronounced as "God's son") and a quite few Sundays in my travels around the continent. Oh, and one lady named Christmas.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Oh dear - did anyone else have a certain line from a well-loved film come to mind?
When this child misbehaves, will anyone shout out, "He's not (the) Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"?

First thing I thought when I saw the thread title!

I thought, "He grew up to be ... a teenager named Messiah!"

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:
Oh, and one lady named Christmas.

There was an English judge named Christmas Humphries.

(Until I googled that, I had always assumed he was a Christmas baby, but no, he was born on 15 Feb!)

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

I very much doubt, in post-Christian England, whether many peeps (other than Jews) would have any idea as to the religious significance of the name Messiah..... [Disappointed]

Recent (child) baptisms at our place have included Ava-Rose, Harry, Ellie, Olivia, Jessica, Christian, Penny Blossom, and Carlo. Nothing too outré there!

Ian J.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I very much doubt, in post-Christian England, whether many peeps (other than Jews) would have any idea as to the religious significance of the name Messiah.....

It's that nice musical piece they sing at Christmas-time, isn't it?
[Biased]

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
From the link in the OP:

quote:
Martin responded saying, "I was shocked. I never intended on naming my son Messiah because it means God and I didn't think a judge could make me change my baby's name because of her religious beliefs."
If someone chooses a name unaware of its connotations I think it's a kindness to point it out. I went to school with a David Livingstone whose not-very-bright parents had never heard of the missionary. Even some of the teachers referred to him as "I presume."

However, enforcing a name change is wrong.

"Messiah", I believe, means "anointed one". Until the title was claimed for Jesus who became known as a person of God, it was the human person who would liberate the Jewish people not "God" himself. Here's the Wiki version for what it's worth.

And does anyone have anything against Emanuel, Emanuelle, or Manuel- "God with us"?

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

I've met a young man called "Jesus" who worked with my uncle, and a few boys called "Messiah". It must be more common, many names, than we expect.

Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :

Always wondered what my parents were thinking when I was given the name s Paul John. And yes I have had all the papal jokes I care to hear. On the other hand I kind of like them.
But naming ypur child Messiah ? Odd but as been noted elsewhere the Puritans had odd name combinations . Maybe this judge needs to stop interfering the mothers choice of names.Hopefully it will all work out. God willing

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I very much doubt, in post-Christian England, whether many peeps (other than Jews) would have any idea as to the religious significance of the name Messiah.....
It's that nice musical piece they sing at Christmas-time, isn't it?

My eldest is called Zadok, one local kid asked me if his name was from Star Trek.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
PaulBC: Always wondered what my parents were thinking when I was given the name s Paul John.

A friend of mine is called John Paul. Once we were participating in a bingo. Not usually our thing but this had something to do with charity. My friend had bought two bingo cards, but because he had to leave for half an hour he asked me to keep an eye on them. Without thinking about it, I marked his cards as 'John Paul I' and 'John Paul II'.

Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
A friend of mine is called John Paul. Once we were participating in a bingo. Not usually our thing but this had something to do with charity. My friend had bought two bingo cards, but because he had to leave for half an hour he asked me to keep an eye on them. Without thinking about it, I marked his cards as 'John Paul I' and 'John Paul II'.

The Americans have a hero (or pirate), John Paul Jones, from the War of 1812.

I did a quick look to see how recent pope names did in the US baby name list

Pius never broke the top 1000 (and records go back to 1880)
John was already a top 5 name when John became Pope so hard to tell if there was a change.
Paul was top 20 in 1963 and didn't seem to change immediately though had dropped to 34 by 1979 (but I can imagine other reasons).
John Paul actually showed up for the first time in 1978 and reached 648 in 1979 before vanishing from the top 1000 in 1988 (though it reappeared for 2005/2006)
Benedict hasn't been in the top 1000 since 1968

Any guesses on Francis for next year? It is 593 for 2012 (and Francisco is 225, Frank is 319) and has slowly been trending down in popularity (it had been number 29 in 1915). The female, Frances, is 764 and also trending slowly down (Francesca is 486). It had been number 8 in 1918.

Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
The Americans have a hero (or pirate), John Paul Jones, from the War of 1812.

An amazing feat since he died in 1792. I think you mean the War of Independence.

Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :

Some Countries have laws over names you can use.

I did wonder over some Dick parents (Richard and Loyal) naming their daughter Phyllis.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
It is important to consider what problems the child may face at school later on. I went to school with Marietta Grubb (try saying that aloud) and the poor girl's life was made miserable by her classmates. I also knew of a Purification Tubb, Ferdinand Flowerdew and a little girl named Wild Rose who became Wild Bull when she married.
I went to school with a girl named Isabella Flake who inexplicably went by "Isa."

Isa, alternately Issa, is the Arabic form of Jesus.

[ 22. August 2013, 02:41: Message edited by: malik3000 ]

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Isobel used to be a popular girl's name in Scotland - invariably shortened to Isa.

A quick browse of the latest available data from GRO Scotland shows Messiah has yet to cross the Border. Though possibly preferable to the likes of 'Md' which has been visited on one unfortunate infant.

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
Benedict hasn't been in the top 1000 since 1968

Maybe that's the Benedict Arnold associations...

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by pererin:

quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
Benedict hasn't been in the top 1000 since 1968
Maybe that's the Benedict Arnold associations...

It had no Benedict Arnold associations before 1968?

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

Bumping this thread because I came across a news piece saying the judge in this case has been ordered to appear before a disciplinary tribunal.

quote:
A three-member investigative panel of the Tennessee Board of Judicial Conduct concluded this week there was "reasonable cause to believe (Ballew) has committed judicial offenses," and directed the state board's disciplinary counsel to file the charges, according to a document obtained from a court clerk.

The judicial code the panel cited centers on a clause that says religion and other personal biases must not play roles when judges are performing their duties.

I'm not sure what argument could be made that religion didn't play a role in Bellew's decision.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Never mind the poor little mite being landed with "Messiah" - I'm still mind-boggled at the other name the parents wanted: DeShawn

WTF [Eek!]

Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on :

My friend is an exams officer for her school, so she gets to see the legal names of the kids, as opposed to what they are commonly called. Her favourite from last summer was TJ, who has two younger siblings, AJ and (this one will make it obvious) OJ.

Yep, parents named the kids Tomato Juice, Apple Juice and Orange Juice [Disappointed]

[ 30. October 2013, 21:28: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
... but the judge was still wrong ...

Why do several posters state this with such dogmatic certainty? Are you saying it is the law or that it both is the law and should be? In England and Wales you can give your child virtually any name. In many other countries there are either restrictions on what names you can choose or a list of approved names. Why is this wrong, rather than just different - or possibly better?

Besides, if the courts and/or social services are expected to intervene to protect children from being abused, isn't giving your child a really unsatisfactory name a form of abuse?

[ 30. October 2013, 22:28: Message edited by: Enoch ]

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
... but the judge was still wrong ...
Why do several posters state this with such dogmatic certainty? Are you saying it is the law or that it both is the law and should be? In England and Wales you can give your child virtually any name. In many other countries there are either restrictions on what names you can choose or a list of approved names. Why is this wrong, rather than just different - or possibly better?

Because allowing judges to rule on matters outside the immediate controversy is an invitation to abuse of power.

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Besides, if the courts and/or social services are expected to intervene to protect children from being abused, isn't giving your child a really unsatisfactory name a form of abuse?

No, it isn't. And "unsatisfactory" to whom?

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

There are many rather unusual names if they transfer from one place to another. Recalling a girl named Horntip in Guyana. Names like Claudia, Cosmo, Merlin would get unmerciful teasing here. Harry is also one of jokes unless his last name is Potter. The last name Menzies also gets jokes.

A weird one that's gaining ground here is Neveah - heaven spelled backwards.

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

Recent (child) baptisms at our place have included Ava-Rose, Harry, Ellie, Olivia, Jessica, Christian, Penny Blossom, and Carlo. Nothing too outré there!

I feel I must add a quote that I also contributed to the christen/baptism thread:
A constitution of Archbishop Peckham (ob. 1292) directs that "ministers shall take care not to permit wanton names to be given to children baptized, and if otherwise it be done, the same shall be changed by the bishop at confirmation."

So Penny Blossom would have been baptised Penelope, Harry Henry, and Ellie Elizabeth or Eleanor...

GG

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

Recent (child) baptisms at our place have included Ava-Rose, Harry, Ellie, Olivia, Jessica, Christian, Penny Blossom, and Carlo. Nothing too outré there!
I feel I must add a quote that I also contributed to the christen/baptism thread:
A constitution of Archbishop Peckham (ob. 1292) directs that "ministers shall take care not to permit wanton names to be given to children baptized, and if otherwise it be done, the same shall be changed by the bishop at confirmation."

So Penny Blossom would have been baptised Penelope, Harry Henry, and Ellie Elizabeth or Eleanor...

GG

Yep the vicar refused to Baptise an unlce of mine as harry, he had to be Henry..

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
There are many rather unusual names if they transfer from one place to another. Recalling a girl named Horntip in Guyana. Names like Claudia, Cosmo, Merlin would get unmerciful teasing here. Harry is also one of jokes unless his last name is Potter. The last name Menzies also gets jokes.

A weird one that's gaining ground here is Neveah - heaven spelled backwards.

That's common around my little cornoer of the UK too

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :

I have recently come across a Peyton, a Sapphire and a Saffron, and a lot of Demis.

I know that Demi is an older popular-ish name but I have always wondered why parents want to give their child name that means ‘half.’

Half of what I always wonder…

Posted by iamvalisme (# 13233) on :

My husband was a health visitor, and had clients Mr and Mrs Keurten,(guess how it is pronounced!) who names their new daughter Annette.
At least Messiah is not like that.
We actually went through agonied naming our children, trying combinations with surname, initials etc etc.
I think the wrong name can be bad for the child, but Messiah is Ok. It does depend on where the child will go to school and who his peers will be though.

Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :

quote:
Originally posted by iamvalisme:
My husband was a health visitor...

A friend who was a health visitor some years ago claimed to have come across a Mr & Mrs Pipe who chose the name Dwayne for their son.

Posted by Morlader (# 16040) on :

I went to school with Mr and Mrs Payne's son, Ivor.

Somebody should over rule for the sake of the child. IMHO, of course.

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