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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Pope Francis interview
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
I have to wonder - how far can this Pope go? Did the conclave know what it would be getting? Given that cardinals have been chosen by his two predecessors, is it possible for Pope Francis to make significant change?
[ 23. September 2013, 12:54: Message edited by: Ancient Mariner ]
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"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
Posts: 386 | From: Between two big lakes | Registered: Apr 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What a guy! I mean WHAT a guy. Even though he wouldn't give me communion ... YET!, what a guy.
God bless the Pope.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Whoa- I like him! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
I probably don't agree with him in all things, but yeah, I like him.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
He's not changing doctrine or dogma, and it's not realistic to imagine that he will. These are pastoral moves, shifts of emphasis. The Pope remains Catholic.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Don't we all.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
He's not changing doctrine or dogma, and it's not realistic to imagine that he will. These are pastoral moves, shifts of emphasis. The Pope remains Catholic.
Understood, and I would agree, but is it possible the church will ordain married men as priests, or allow women to be ordained to the permanent diaconate, without changing doctrine or dogma?
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"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
Posts: 386 | From: Between two big lakes | Registered: Apr 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
That one is a bit further away.
The point is to reduce the rigidity of condemnation that too many of the church leaders have decided to present.
Up to now, any visibly gay person has to rely on the local priest being a bit flexible against the orders of some elderly conservative in a fancy dress.
There's a difference between "hang 'em all" and "he/she is a person just as we all are"
and it may mean the difference between a RC church that fades as the Millennials mature or one that has a bit of life (I'm talking US/Canada/UK here - I don't know enough about the other bits of the world))
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Don't we all.
no
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Who chooses to exclude themselves then?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Herrick
Shipmate
# 15226
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Posted
On ordination for women? He did say that the 'genius' of the female should be always considered.
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A careless shoestring in whose tie
I see a wild civility
Posts: 1194 | From: NSW | Registered: Oct 2009
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
... I have to wonder - how far can this Pope go? Did the conclave know what it would be getting? Given that cardinals have been chosen by his two predecessors, is it possible for Pope Francis to make significant change?
The electors knew exactly what they would be getting. Given the lead time after Benedict's resignation announcement, together with the advanced state of Internet and telecommunications, the college of cardinals was given unprecedented opportunity for mutual consultation before meeting face to face in Rome for further conference before a largely ceremonial conclave. The result was the quick election of Borgolio, with an even larger majority than had elected Ratzinger. Make no mistake, Pope Francis has a large and powerful mandate from the residential cardinal archbishops who elected him to make sweeping changes in the governance of the church.
*
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
Even if it doesn't represent a change in doctrine, it's a step in the right direction. I wouldn't expect a Pope to turn on a dime on doctrine, even if some of the things (the ban on contraception and IVF) make very little sense to me.
He's right - it's one thing to have these doctrines that are difficult to accept, and another to act as if they are the most important questions in the Christian life. The emphasis of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops on dead horse issues is illustrative. Imagine if instead of worrying so much about contraceptives in health care plans they refocused that energy on the unfair portrayal and treatment of the poor in US politics and the media.
[ 20. September 2013, 10:54: Message edited by: Mockingale ]
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I also like this guy.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The Pope remains Catholic.
And there lies the problem. As soon as he embraces the reformation, renounces the anathemas of the Council of Trent, then we might start to consider the catholic church to once again be part of christianity. Until then, it remains detached from the rest of the Church at large.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
He's not changing doctrine or dogma, and it's not realistic to imagine that he will. These are pastoral moves, shifts of emphasis. The Pope remains Catholic.
Understood, and I would agree, but is it possible the church will ordain married men as priests, or allow women to be ordained to the permanent diaconate, without changing doctrine or dogma?
The ministry of women isn't dogma.
Dogma = quote:
truths formally and explicitly revealed by God are certainly dogmas in the strict sense when they are proposed or defined by the Church. Such are the articles of the Apostles' Creed. Similarly, truths revealed by God formally, but only implicitly, are dogmas in the strict sense when proposed or defined by the Church. Such, for example, are the doctrines of Transubstantiation, papal infallibility, the Immaculate Conception, some of the Church's teaching about the Saviour, the sacraments, etc. All doctrines defined by the Church as being contained in revelation are understood to be formally revealed, explicitly or implicitly
this RC source.
It is only a change in dogma if you see it as a change in 'teaching about the sacraments, i.e. the 'matter' of the sacrament of ordination.
[ 20. September 2013, 14:18: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Lothiriel
Shipmate
# 15561
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Posted
This bit of the interview caught my eye:
quote:
We have to work harder to develop a profound theology of the woman.
This sounds rather patronizing. We seem to have unmarked theology, which is implicitly male, and then there is a marked subset for females.
Although Francis is using more conciliatory language and being a little more inclusive than his predecessors, he's not re-shaping Catholic doctrine or practice on this matter as far as I can see. He still sees women as Other.
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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery
my blog
Posts: 538 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Mar 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The Pope remains Catholic.
And there lies the problem. As soon as he embraces the reformation, renounces the anathemas of the Council of Trent, then we might start to consider the catholic church to once again be part of christianity. Until then, it remains detached from the rest of the Church at large.
Way to give as good as you get.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
He's not changing doctrine or dogma, and it's not realistic to imagine that he will. These are pastoral moves, shifts of emphasis. The Pope remains Catholic.
Understood, and I would agree, but is it possible the church will ordain married men as priests, or allow women to be ordained to the permanent diaconate, without changing doctrine or dogma?
The former change would be simply an adjustment of discipline. The Church has (rightly or wrongly) backed itself into a corner regarding the ordination of women to any office of the sacred ministry.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
... I have to wonder - how far can this Pope go? Did the conclave know what it would be getting? Given that cardinals have been chosen by his two predecessors, is it possible for Pope Francis to make significant change?
The electors knew exactly what they would be getting. Given the lead time after Benedict's resignation announcement, together with the advanced state of Internet and telecommunications, the college of cardinals was given unprecedented opportunity for mutual consultation before meeting face to face in Rome for further conference before a largely ceremonial conclave. The result was the quick election of Borgolio, with an even larger majority than had elected Ratzinger. Make no mistake, Pope Francis has a large and powerful mandate from the residential cardinal archbishops who elected him to make sweeping changes in the governance of the church.
*
Moreover, Borgolio was reportedly the runner-up in the previous election, which means the cardinals present for both of the last two papal conclaves thoroughly considered his potential twice. It's hard to think they didn't know exactly what they were doing. I only wonder how many of them wish they'd gone with Borgolio last time.
All in all, however Pope Francis ends up working out for the Catholic Church, he certainly is good for Christianity, at least where I live, where the Catholic Church has the only religious voice big enough to be a counterweight to the conservative evangelicals in the marketplace of ideas. One friend, an Episcopal priest who is pleased with what Pope Francis has been saying, put it this way: "He's good for the brand."
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
The man's name is Jorge Mario Bergoglio, not "Borgolio".
I've read the interview. He's a typical modern Jesuit. There are people who think a pope taking the name "Pius" can do no wrong... well, what about Pope Pius VII then?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
He's a typical modern Jesuit.
...except that he is the Pope. I think I would consider that to take him out of the "typical" range. It also means that if he teaches the "typical modern Jesuit" line, it's going to have a lot more impact within the Catholic Church than it would if he were NOT the Pope.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
One friend, an Episcopal priest who is pleased with what Pope Francis has been saying, put it this way: "He's good for the brand."
Bingo.
The problem I have with all Pope Francis's public pronouncements is that if they were a cynical attempt to make the general public forget what they've heard about the Catholic Church in the last decade or so, they'd sound exactly the same. I get the queasy feeling that some of the people running the Church think that this obvious rebranding is a solution. The worst of it is that it seems to be working on the media.
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Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
Let me clarify that: whether the Pope himself is cynical or not is unknowable, but his selection, and the character they've decided to attribute to him, is manifestly about damage limitation and image crafting.
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Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
And ... here is Pope Francis speaking out against abortion today: original in Italian, comment with some translation in news.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
IngoB: And ... here is Pope Francis speaking out against abortion today: original in Italian, comment with some translation in news.
In the second article, there are pictures of him with Porfirio Lobo. There are some things about that guy that I can only say in Hell.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
And ... if you want to know what Pope Francis thinks about gay marriage, you can read that here, in a three year old letter. (Warning, this is hosted on Rorate Caeli, a website generally NSFL.)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think that was evident in the original interview we were discussing, where he prefaced his comments with a statement along the lines of:
Of course I am a son of the church but
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The Pope remains Catholic.
And there lies the problem. As soon as he embraces the reformation, renounces the anathemas of the Council of Trent, then we might start to consider the catholic church to once again be part of christianity. Until then, it remains detached from the rest of the Church at large.
Wow. Even I find this hilarious.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
All in all, however Pope Francis ends up working out for the Catholic Church, he certainly is good for Christianity, at least where I live, where the Catholic Church has the only religious voice big enough to be a counterweight to the conservative evangelicals in the marketplace of ideas. One friend, an Episcopal priest who is pleased with what Pope Francis has been saying, put it this way: "He's good for the brand."
I think he's playing "the long game", personally. I think he knows that attitudes need to change before dogma can, so he is attacking attitudes first.
He might not see the fruit in his tenure, but it will be worth the effort down the line.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
He's not changing doctrine or dogma, and it's not realistic to imagine that he will. These are pastoral moves, shifts of emphasis. The Pope remains Catholic.
It looks like we are entering a new stage in the ongoing struggle for the power to decide what "Catholic" means.
quote:
Asked what it means for him to "think with the church," a phase used by the Jesuit founder St. Ignatius, "Francis said that it did not mean "thinking with the hierarchy of the church."
"This church with which we should be thinking is the home of all, not a small chapel that can hold only a small group of selected people," he aid. "We must not reduce the bosom of the universal church to a news protecting our mediocrity."
The RCC itself has always been a big tent, whatever the leadership of the time has done or not done. It is heartening that Pope Francis both acknowledges and embraces this.
As a former Catholic, I've long felt that the RCC -- i.e., the "official church," the church of John Paul II and Benedict XVI, and of the curias and hierarchies they have given such great power -- is guilty of what you might call the Sin of Disproportion. The focus and passion have been whittled down to a relatively small number of contentious moral issues. The connection with God's own priorities and for the value of every single created person has become less and less clear.
Add me to the list of those who will be watching closely and wishing this Pope well. In my case, as one who departed from the RCC long ago, I will by necessity be doing this from the outside looking in.
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The man's name is Jorge Mario Bergoglio, not "Borgolio".
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
quote:
And ... here is Pope Francis speaking out against abortion today: original in Italian, comment with some translation in news.
The AP and Cardinal Dolan both say Pope Francis has sent "shockwaves" through the church. Do you think this is true?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
I was going to start a thread asking how the Pope was being received after some of his recent pronouncements. Mainly because of a blog I stumbled across after it was linked to from another I read. But I've been a bit busy and didn't get round to it.
The author of this blog has an enormous bee in his bonnet over the current Pope. Part of this stems from an apparent obsession on his part over dead horses, that the Pope hasn't spoken enough about for his liking (and indeed, has apparently "endorsed" by not kicking one out of his entourage).
Another significant aspect of it though appears to be a dislike of the Pope's general behaviour - namely - didn't wear the red shoes, didn't wear the right outfit, didn't turn up to some official concert, didn't live in the official residence, didn't go to the official summer residence, didn't drive round in the official car etc etc.
Now, as a Methodist, we don't set much stall by the expected actions of the President of Conference - but they are only for a year at a time anyway. So I was interested to find out what Catholics thought of him. Which The Ship is good for.
I'd guess that as was mentioned up thread, the Catholic Church is in fact a big place, and lots of different factions will be rather cheesed off with each particular Pope for their own reasons. Perhaps it's just easier for people to publicise that nowadays.
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The AP and Cardinal Dolan both say Pope Francis has sent "shockwaves" through the church. Do you think this is true?
In my opinion, so far Pope Francis has managed to generate a lot of waves in the press and probably also in the episcopate. I do not think that either of these has in turn managed to stir up the Church at large significantly. Radicals on either side have of course fulfilled their "canary in a coal mine" role, but their excitement (positive or negative) is no accurate measure of the overall state of the Church.
I think what is being underreported here is just how ordinary Pope Francis is in terms of much of parish life in the West. I think a good number of priests and indeed bishops could begin a reading of Pope Francis various statements with "As I have been saying for the last few decades, ..." I've heard the same sort of thing ever since I joined the RCC, just from lower ranks of the hierarchy.
From my perspective, with sympathies for the conservative and traditional side of things without being fully signed up to any particular group, the problem here is that there was a kind of "checks and balance" thing going on between Rome, the regional episcopate and the laity / parish priests. People less happy with Rome in the last decades would perhaps call it a stalemate. It seems like one of the players, Rome, has now toppled over. What will happen next is unclear to me, but I for one will probably not like it...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
I like what I've read of him too. Mostly. It's very confusing.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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bad man
Apprentice
# 17449
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL on 25 September, 2012 here :
The cultural, liturgical and theological war that has raged in the Catholic Church since the 1960s is over bar the shouting; the liberals lost decisively and irrevocably when Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger was elected Pope.
I suppose it's not over until it's over, eh?
Which is never, as long as the Church is a living body of living people.
Posts: 49 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Nov 2012
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
FWIW, Pope Francis has excommunicated a "rebel priest" based on a direct complaint to the CDF without consulting the local bishop: secular media report. (Rebel about the usual stuff apparently: female ordination, gay marriage, etc.)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Lawrence
Ship's Grill Master
# 4913
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Posted
I agree that Francis is playing "the long game", which is the only game in an organization that has a two thousand year old world view. I think Francis is mostly what he appears to be: a simple man committed to the gospel of Jesus Christ. What he is not is a simpleton and he is not naive. He understands the power politics of the Church, but he also understands how important the church is and can be (must be). He will not be co-opted by the existing power structure but he will not be sand-bagged by it either.
I lilke the guy and I pray for his success.
Posts: 199 | From: Where once you could get a decent Brain Sandwich | Registered: Aug 2003
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Don't hold your breath.
The college of cardinals still has over 100 members who were put there by JP II and he tended to make bishops and cardinals out of people whose conservatism chimed with his own.
Benedict XVI was made a cardinal by Paul VI and I think has demonstrated by his abdication that he is less conservative than had been thought.
It may be that Francis I is more traditional than people wish.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
He will confound both the "liberals" who are already whining that he is not ordaining women and passing out contraception at the Vatican and the Trads because he is not wearing brocade for every Papal Mass and not concentrating on the 2 issues that they think he should
He's doing very well
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
I thought the most interesting part of the interview was Francis's remark about a horizontal as opposed to a vertical church structure--that could have real repercussions. Monarchy is as anachronistic in the church as it is in the state.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
quote:
Posted by Timothy the Obscure
Monarchy is as anachronistic in the church as it is in the state.
An odd statement in light of the fact that the triple tiara is still the official symbol of the papacy and is used on all official documents as well as buildings and insignia.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
quote:
Posted by Timothy the Obscure
Monarchy is as anachronistic in the church as it is in the state.
An odd statement in light of the fact that the triple tiara is still the official symbol of the papacy and is used on all official documents as well as buildings and insignia.
True, but if he goes on making statements like that it will be the triple tiara that starts to look odd.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
And another interview with the pope!
My favorite quote from this interview:
quote:
Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us.... The world is crisscrossed by roads that come closer together and move apart, but the important thing is that they lead towards the Good.
I'm not naive about this. There are elements of brilliant public relations in his outreach at this time. Francis certainly believes is spreading the Word and is not averse to slamming voices within the Church who go too far (in his estimation) from traditional Church views of what "the Good" involves.
But ... having said all that ... I admit to feeling a rush of hope when I read phrases like "expand the circle of ideas." Or when he says, in a tone vastly different from that used by Benedict when making essentially the same point: quote:
Personally I think that being a minority is actually a strength."
The interviewer from La Repubblica chooses to stay away from dead horses like the abuse scandal, abortion, homosexuality, and the role of women in the church. So does the Pope. I'm glad they did so. There is so much else about life, inside and outside "the church," that needs talking about and listening for.
[ 06. October 2013, 21:54: Message edited by: roybart ]
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
I've only just got round to reading the Scalfari interview, but the Holy Father says two things in particular with which I strongly agree:
"Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us."
The Son of God became incarnate in order to instill the feeling of brotherhood in the souls of men. All are brothers and all children of God. Abba, as he called the Father. I will show you the way, he said. Follow me and you will find the Father and you will all be his children and he will take delight in you. Agape, the love of each one of us for the other, from the closest to the furthest, is in fact the only way that Jesus has given us to find the way of salvation and of the Beatitudes."
Preaching usually gets us nowhere, it just irritates people and pushes them further away. especially preaching which centres on dogma with threats of damnation if you don't accept what I say. The way of Jesus is agape, love of God and neighbour. As St Francis of Asisi said, "Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary use words."
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I've only just got round to reading the Scalfari interview, but the Holy Father says two things in particular with which I strongly agree:
"Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us."
The Son of God became incarnate in order to instill the feeling of brotherhood in the souls of men. All are brothers and all children of God. Abba, as he called the Father. I will show you the way, he said. Follow me and you will find the Father and you will all be his children and he will take delight in you. Agape, the love of each one of us for the other, from the closest to the furthest, is in fact the only way that Jesus has given us to find the way of salvation and of the Beatitudes."
Preaching usually gets us nowhere, it just irritates people and pushes them further away. especially preaching which centres on dogma with threats of damnation if you don't accept what I say. The way of Jesus is agape, love of God and neighbour. As St Francis of Asisi said, "Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary use words."
I think this is especially true when trying to reach young people. When they speak of compassion they talk about the Dalai Lama and not Christ and certainly never the church.
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Ego is not your amigo.
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
"Preaching," insofar as it is limited to talking TO or AT someone, without the qualities of listening and learning that the Pope is careful to mention, can definitely be a turn-off. (Except, I suspect, for those who already agree with the preacher and are at best looking for new arguments to defend old convictions.)
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
I like the man's thoughts they seem more inclusive than many of his predecessors. Also his approach to humility , less formality than most of his predcessors.
All churches need to be less formal and more humble helps to get the Gospel message out . But I think Pope Francis may be setting an universal example.
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
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Posted by Timothy the Obscure
Monarchy is as anachronistic in the church as it is in the state.
An odd statement in light of the fact that the triple tiara is still the official symbol of the papacy and is used on all official documents as well as buildings and insignia.
True, but if he goes on making statements like that it will be the triple tiara that starts to look odd.
I don't think an '84 Renault has that much headroom.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
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