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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Ethics of User Agreements
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Nearly every electronic product requires a User Agreement. It is a fairly necessary item, but there are issues.
Whilst most UAs are fairly benign, some do try to slip things by. Instagram famously tried to own the images users posted and were fairly quickly slapped on the wrist.
I think it safe to say most people do not read the agreements. This is not something that is completely excusable. However many agreements are not only long, but written in such a manner that one would need be/hire a lawer to fully understand what is being agreed to.
One purchases a hammer and the parameters of use are implied. As are its expected performance.
User Agreements have been written to limit both.
Are the increasingly complicated and overly protected agreements ethical?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
As framed, is there anything to discuss? No. Obviously not.
Nor do they enshrine the concept of freedom of contract. It's selling by the metaphorical point of the gun.
[ 27. September 2013, 22:34: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
After seeing the Human Centipad episode of South Park one can't help but be hinky about the whole idea.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
As framed, is there anything to discuss? No. Obviously not.
Alright, let me make it more simple.
Apple just released an update to their less than 2 week old iOS7. The bugs which prompted this were the ability to bypass the lock screen and access user data.
In order to download and install the patched software, one must agree to the UA.
In order to fix a problem the manufacturer is responsible for, the user must agree to something they might not be comfortable with.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Just to play devil's advocate here, how else are companies supposed to protect their interests?
Also, isn't this just the electronic version of the super-fine print on so many contracts you see these days? I don't read the terms of the agreement when I take my car to Jiffy-Lube, and I'm sure they are very much more to the benefit of the company than they are to me, but I want a cheap oil change and nothing's ever gone wrong, so I sign.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
After seeing the Human Centipad episode of South Park one can't help but be hinky about the whole idea.
What's South Park? and what does "hinky" mean? (comes up as a spelling error in Chrome - wonder what user agreement I signed to be allowed to use that for free)
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Just to play devil's advocate here, how else are companies supposed to protect their interests?
Oh, I am not saying the concept is wrong. But the implementation leaves something to be desired.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
What's South Park? and what does "hinky" mean? (comes up as a spelling error in Chrome - wonder what user agreement I signed to be allowed to use that for free)
Let me Google that and that for you.
You're welcome.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
What's South Park?
A television program that appeals to deep thinkers.
quote:
and what does "hinky" mean?
Nervous, suspicious, unsure.
"HumancentiPad" is the first episode of season 15. It satirizes the movie "The Human Centipede" and user agreements.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
You are right that nobody ever reads them. When signing onto my wifi at work, I have to agree to a long, complex and tedious document agreeing to certain conditions over its use. I never read, not least because I am connecting on my mobile, and reading this on a mobile would be a pain.
As a rule, they are simply there to enshrine in law the agreement between the two parties. The problem is as much that the legal system requires this level of detail and explanation to work. What they should say, mostly, is "we try and make this work, you try not to break it, and don't use it for your most precious stuff" or something like that. If the legal services could work with this, then UAs would be short and readable.
Hmm. That gives me an idea for my current story.
For most of the large public services, there are lawyers who will enjoy reading these, and will find the problems - like the Instagram issue - and draw peoples attention to these points. Most of the time, we take these on trust. And find out later if there are issues.
As to having to agree for a patch, well yes, you still have to accept that your rights and Apples rights are limited to be allowed to access Apples code changes. How is that a real problem? In your original UA, there was probably a clause which said that they don't guarantee it to be error free, and there might be patches. So you accepted in one UA the possibility of having to agree to other UAs.
At the end of the day, while the legal systems of the world are so hung up on words and the precise meanings and enjoy legalese, we will have ever larger UAs. While people can get away on technicalities, lawyers will seek to block these with another paragraph of words.
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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I think xkcd has the best take on the Instagram issue.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think xkcd has the best take on the Instagram issue.
On a tablet at the moment, so cannot read the hover over, but this is not quite the case.
Yes, one should be wary of "free" services. It is naive to think that a service will remain free with no consequence. However, the standard monetization route is adverts, not theft of property.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
I wouldn't say they are completely bad. The ones that I have skimmed through call out the fact that you cannot reverse engineer or decompile their software. They have a right to protect their intellectual property.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
It isn't just EULAs that get lost in legalese. When I had my purse stolen in Athens, I had to cancel my cards, including the one I was going to pay the ship with for onboard spending. Unless paid, they would not let me have my passport back. They would not let me go online and transfer the money over directly from my bank account. I had to sign a promissory note. Fine. To my mind a promissory note would be on the lines of :
1. I acknowledge I owe the company 34 euros.
2. I will pay the amount of 34 euros as soon as I have access to a method you will accept.
3. I recognise that if I do not pay you within a reasonable time you will pursue me for the amount of 34 euros and whatever expenses are incurred in collecting it.
To their minds, it was an A4 page outlining the consequences which appeared to be the entire legal population of Florida turning up on my doorstep and distraining all my worldly goods. It was scarey, and I did not want to sign it. But they wouldn't let me have my passport back. I pointed out that they were making me out to be the criminal - there were clauses that made it look as if my default were deliberate. They would not let me have my passport back.
Jack Cade* breathed in my ears. It was totally unnecessary.
They got their money within 5 minutes of my arriving home, where my new card awaited.
*I think that's who Shakespeare has stirring up rebellion and singling out lawyers for going up against the wall.
[ 28. September 2013, 14:42: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think xkcd has the best take on the Instagram issue.
On a tablet at the moment, so cannot read the hover over, but this is not quite the case.
Yes, one should be wary of "free" services. It is naive to think that a service will remain free with no consequence. However, the standard monetization route is adverts, not theft of property.
I'd see it more that Instagram have no obligations to their users if their users have no obligations towards them.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
According to xkcd, EULAs can be a good way of avoiding selling your soul to the devil.
According to the UK-based retailer Gamestation.co.uk as well. They enshrined it in their user agreement, complete with an opt-out tick box which also rewarded the user with a discount voucher. They later announced they would voluntarily choose to release their rights under that part of the user agreement including the right to serve notice in six foot high flaming letters.
And before anybody goes off on the tedious ad hominem bullshit, the Fox News link is a reliable report and it was reported through other channels at the time, I only chose that link because they do a better job of preserving links from the past than most other channels.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Thanks for the link, tgc, that was hilarious.
A problem I see with the EULA is the scope and nature. Protecting intellectual property is understandable and reasonable. So is indemnification against use not designed for.
However, if you purchase music online from many retailers, you do not actually own anything. In the old days, if one purchased a CD, one owned a disc full of music that one could use in nearly any non-commercial manner one wished. And it could be sold, given away. There was actual property purchased.
Now, you are purchasing a license to use the file. You cannot give it to anyone. Should you sell your computer, hard drive, MP3 player and not delete said track, you are committing a crime. At least according to the EULA. Same with many software titles.
If one purchases a hammer, one can sell it for many times the retailer's price should one find a buyer.
If the hammer breaks with normal use, the manufacturer has some responsibilities.
If a person purchases, is given or lent a hammer, nothing the buyer/lendee builds is property of the seller/lender.
A hammer's ownership does not revert to the seller if the original purchaser dies.
This is all different in the electronic world.
Some EULAs seek to indemnify the producer from any recourse should the product fail to even work.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I think intellectual property rights except for real creativity are mostly bunkum. I haven't agreed to a EULA for anything related to computers or software for probably close to 10 years. I don't expect to start again anytime soon. The only thing close to closed source and having to deal with a user agreement was loading up the Android phone OS onto an emulator within open source Virtual Box in Linux.
Consider bottled water, it is possible to get completely refreshing stuff out of the tap/fawcet, why would you buy that anyway? There is no function related to technology that can't be done without any form of user agreement. Except for deliberately obfuscationist nonsense like iTunes.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I haven't agreed to a EULA for anything related to computers or software for probably close to 10 years. I don't expect to start again anytime soon.
How are you defining EULA? For example, you joined the Ship three years ago. When you joined, you were presented with a screen showing the ten commandments, and you had to click an "Agree" button to continue. Is that an EULA? If not, what's the difference?
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I haven't agreed to a EULA for anything related to computers or software for probably close to 10 years. I don't expect to start again anytime soon.
How are you defining EULA? For example, you joined the Ship three years ago. When you joined, you were presented with a screen showing the ten commandments, and you had to click an "Agree" button to continue. Is that an EULA? If not, what's the difference?
It's not a product. I also have agreed to the GPL, the gnu public license, about operating systems and programs, which says that everything I use can be modified and played with. There are several other versions as well for different things, such as Creative Commons, which I have also agreed to. These sorts of agreements mean that I only agree that copyright and intellectual property rights apply to make ownership completely public and open.
I view the ship agreement and others like them as "terms of service" where there are behavioural rules which I have agreed to follow to allow the public discourse. In the same way I might prepare a document with LibreOffice and the content I produce might be copyright or subject to some additional rules. Likewise, I access the ship through a Linus operating system running the open source version of Chrome, called Iron. So the tools are not subject to user agreements but behaviour with the tools may be.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
tangent
Is original sin a divine form of EULA?
/tangent
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
It's not a product.
Says who? I'm not sure I'd want to bet against a court being persuadable that it was, if the right silver-tongued lawyers had an interest in persuading them of it.
Not that I have any idea whether "product" in this context has any settled meanign in law. Though it certainly gets used in some contracts.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
It's not a product.
Says who? I'm not sure I'd want to bet against a court being persuadable that it was, if the right silver-tongued lawyers had an interest in persuading them of it.
Not that I have any idea whether "product" in this context has any settled meanign in law. Though it certainly gets used in some contracts.
If "product" is getting used in contracts, it is probably defined right at the start of the contract.
I don't think it's a huge stretch to define access to a service in similar terms as buying a product.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
Some of these agreements are a problem for the library world. The trend is that you can no longer buy anything, only rent it for a period of time and under conditions which limit or prohibit sharing with or passing on to others. (See Stringfellow and his take on the stranglehold of corporations). The implications of some of these agreements have at times caused entire universities to sue or be sued.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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