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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Jesuits: Yea, Nay, or Eh?
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Since Pope Francis was elected, there has been a fair amount made of the fact that he is a Jesuit- the first Jesuit pope ever. To be honest, I don't know a whole lot about the the order other than that they were founded by Ignatius Loyola during the sixteenth century and therefore were up to their eyeteeth in the turmoil of the Reformation/Counter-Reformation world. They seemed to have gained a reputation of being nefarious in the eyes of Protestant governments and churches, and later to have raised the ire of factions of the Roman Catholic Church itself for fairly brief periods.
Today they appear to be a very large order made up of very well-educated men, who devote their energy in service to the world in education and toward cultural and spiritual needs wherever they go. So I ask: what's not to like? (Other than the general disagreements the RCC has with other Christian denominations and churches in general and they with the RCC.) What about RCs: do you have any problems with the Society of Jesus or with the fact that your Pope is a member? And what do you think it will mean as to what is produced by this papacy?
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I have worked together with Jesuits on educational projects. I liked them.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
I love the poetry of Gerard Manley Hopkins. Does he count? He was a Jesuit!
I also like Pope Francis. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
I get the impression that before about 100 years ago the Jesuits were considered ultra-orthodox Catholic "shock troops" (or at any rate that's how Protestants saw them) and now they are considered highly liberal types (at least that is how conservative Roman Catholics seem to see them).
Is that right? And if so, why the change?
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I get the impression that before about 100 years ago the Jesuits were considered ultra-orthodox Catholic "shock troops" (or at any rate that's how Protestants saw them) and now they are considered highly liberal types (at least that is how conservative Roman Catholics seem to see them).
Is that right? And if so, why the change?
That has long been my impression as well, at least the part about them being liberal. In fact, it was an atheist marxist sociology prof who first told me that the Jesuits were considered a fairly left-leaning order.
And I've met old-school Catholics for whom "Jesuit" is shorthand for all that is wrong with the Church today. "See in the paper, this one priest is saying it's okay to be gay, must be some Jesuit".
I also once briefly glanced through a Canadian Jesuit publication, and its political analysis seemed fairly similar to what you'd see in a typical left-wing magazine like New Statesman. Maybe more Mother Jones, I dunno.
As to why the change, I'm not sure. I do recall reading about some guy who had been head of the Jesuits back in the mid-20th Century, and seem to remember that he was credited with putting them on a more radical path.
But didn't Voltaire in Candide portray his South American utopia as Jesuit-run? Maybe their reputation for liberalism goes back a bit. Being among the most intellectual orders, they would probably be the ones with the most access to new ideas and theories.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
I think this guy might be the Jseuit I was thinking of. The Superior General before him seems to have been influential in social-justice issues as well.
[ 04. October 2013, 00:02: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
To the OP:
Perhaps it has more to do with people being familiar with the name of the order than any real idea what they are about?
[ 04. October 2013, 00:04: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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art dunce
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# 9258
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Posted
I enjoy the writings of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin and find his theories about the Omega Point fascinating,
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Bear in mind it could have been the rest of the church that changed tack, not the Jesuits.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
The order covers the whole range of thought, imo. Many other orders do the same; I think none of them can be accused of lock-step conformity to one view or another.
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Even more so than I was before
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
[drive-by posting]
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Bear in mind it could have been the rest of the church that changed tack, not the Jesuits.
Not really. Will elaborate later.
Pancho (who went to mass at a Jesuit church last Sunday).
[/drive-by posting]
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
What I meant to say earlier is that it's not the Church who has changed tack instead of the Jesuits. The Church's teaching hasn't changed but there have been pressures and disruptions in the Church over the past few decades and these have appeared among the Jesuits like they've appeared among other orders.
I often attend a Jesuit parish and it reflects many of the good things and the bad things about Catholic life in the U.S. In my experience they're excellent confessors. I admire them for their mix of intellect and practicality, for their spirituality, and for their heroic service to the Church, enduring martyrdom in places like colonial North America and Elizabethan England.
However, there's a reason why they've gotten a bit of a flaky reputation in places like the U.S. and I think that flakiness has contributed to their decline in numbers. They could no longer staff the Newman Center (the university parish/ministry) at the University of Hawaii and the parish I visit houses fewer Jesuits than it used to a few years ago. There are signs of hope, though. There's a vocations poster at the parish that shows dozens of candidates to the order and one of the men at the parish is a young, enthusiastic Jesuit who gives excellent homilies.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Well, being a credal Piskie who is pretty liberal socially, I see a lot to like about the Jesuits from these observations. I guess more conservative Catholics may be more wary of them. But if Pope Francis is representative, I like much of their emphasis. I don't expect them to be more like Protestants; I figure they support all the stands laid down by the RCC. But they seem to recognize many important issues in the ministry trenches.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
A CofE priest of mine went up to Park Street to introduce himself when he moved into his nearby rectory. (This is 30-odd years ago)
On his return he told me they didn't seem particularly intelligent (he was brilliant and was expecting them to live up to their reputation as he'd encountered it).
He then added "And they were not even good-looking"
FWIW
Second you, Laurelin, on GMH who saved me from my adolescent identity crisis at 17.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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The Midge
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# 2398
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Posted
Gerard Hughes (author of God of Surprises) is an exponent of Ignation spirituality. I enjoyed this but as a protestant, know hardly anything else about Jesuits.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
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Posted
There's an interesting tradition of the wily casuistical Jesuit as a stock type in English fiction -- most notably the smooth-talking complex Fr Rothschild in Evelyn Waugh's Decline and Fall.
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
A CofE priest of mine went up to Park Street to introduce himself when he moved into his nearby rectory. (This is 30-odd years ago)
On his return he told me they didn't seem particularly intelligent (he was brilliant and was expecting them to live up to their reputation as he'd encountered it).
He then added "And they were not even good-looking"
FWIW
Second you, Laurelin, on GMH who saved me from my adolescent identity crisis at 17.
The Jesuits who taught me theology avoided any appearance of 'brilliance' or intellectual showmanship. They would have taken great pleasure in being described by an Anglican as 'not seeming particularly intelligent.'
Galilit--was your clergyman looking for a date or something?
[ 04. October 2013, 07:02: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
The Society of Jesus was founded to bring the Protestants back into the Roman Catholic Church. For many years they tried to make Protestants Catholic. When that failed miserably, they decided it was time for on a new approach. Now they are trying to make Catholics Protestant...
Their enemies have often accused Jesuits of being duplicitous. I think there is some truth to that. Many of them are very bright and well educated men. But they tend to present a public face of simplicity and straightforwardness. It's a bit like Oscar Wilde being excited at wearing plain clothes and reading the local newspaper. There remains a lingering suspicion that there must be more to all that. Also they often seem to favour a tactics of expedient means, using whatever works here and now even if it is not up to their best principles. Again, after a while one starts to wonder if there are any principles that they would ever maintain.
There are, to this day, many excellent Jesuits around, for example Avery Cardinal Dulles. But I have to say that on balance, I think it would be better for the RCC if there were none. And the Jesuit pope which we have now the Church needs about as much as a child with ADHD needs to drink a bottle of Coke.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The Society of Jesus was founded to bring the Protestants back into the Roman Catholic Church. For many years they tried to make Protestants Catholic. When that failed miserably, they decided it was time for on a new approach. Now they are trying to make Catholics Protestant...
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Seriously though, it looks from the Wikipedia article on Arrupe that he had a major effect during his tenure from 1965-1983 and that Jesuits were massively associated with Liberation Theology. That is very interesting and goes some way to explaining the changes.
But is there more to it than that? Were changes already underway before that (as Stetson suggests?) Teilhard de Chardin certainly predates 1965 and I feel he... might be considered to be not without flake...
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Within the last thirty years or so there has been a big revival of biblical spirituality, largely inspired and enabled by the Jesuits in the Catholic Church, but spreading across denominational divides. Jesuits have encouraged people to go on retreats (or to undergo 'retreats in daily life'), to meditate on the scriptures, and to take prayer seriously. This all springs from the example of their founder St Ignatius and his Spiritual Exercises.
Sadly the lack of numbers in the order has compelled them to retrench somewhat, and our local Jesuit retreat centre is closing next year. However there remains St Beuno's in North Wales, and similar centres elsewhere in the UK and across the world. They welcome equally Catholics and other Christians (and I'm sure they also welcome non-Christians of whatever background) – it might be this which creates suspicion in the minds of conservative Catholics.
I had a Jesuit spiritual director for several years until he moved away (and I am still in touch with him). I'm sure he is typical of the order in his gentle pastoral manner combined with an incisive ability to focus on the real issues. The iron fist in a velvet glove if you like, though that image can be interpreted differently.
This Anglican diocese, with a strong evangelical bias, has been supported in its work of spiritual direction and training for that ministry, by the encouragement and practical help of the Jesuits. Their methodical and scriptural approach seems to be very congenial to evangelicals, many of whom have undergone training from the Jesuits in spiritual direction.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
I think I've mentioned it elsewhere, but Fr James Keenan SJ (now at Fordham) has done some interesting research about the relationship and mutual influence of Jesuit and Puritan devotional writing in the 17th century. So it goes back a bit.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
Now that we've got the Ingo-Catholic view on Jesuits on record, may I offer an alternate, but (whether some people like it or not) equally Catholic view. I need to add that I am profoundly biased because as a teenager my heroes were Teilhard de Chardin and St Francis Xavier, and today I deal quite a lot with the Jesuits, through my work and because one of my best friends is a Jesuit, through him I met many of them both socially and professionally.
Superficially, the Jesuits are intriguing because they are an Order yet not monks or brothers, and certainly not cloistered. They are combine very strong discipline with freedom, and the basis of their spirituality is "discernment". A term not all RC's like equally well.
Theirs is a spirituality of incarnation, of life lived to the full. They are provocative; be it with their "option for the poor", or their lifestyle (worldly? No; incarnate!) or their totally unromantic and thus very realistic view on the Church.
We need them and their provocations. Theirs is an intelligent Catholicism that is not afraid of anything, not even of thinking for oneself...
[ 04. October 2013, 11:11: Message edited by: Desert Daughter ]
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
We need them and their provocations. Theirs is an intelligent Catholicism that is not afraid of anything, not even of thinking for oneself...
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
I should have googled. Jim Keenan is now at Boston College. I studied with him at Weston Jesuit a long time ago--but it stuck. He was a fantastic teacher, and a great Jesuit.
And, Desert Daughter--thanks! I entirely agree with you.
[ 04. October 2013, 11:15: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Galilit--was your clergyman looking for a date or something?
No! This was the early 1980's!
Just disappointed that his fantasy of Jesuits was so far off the mark, I think.
I was at a Cistercian Monastery recently and was decidedly underwhelmed by the residents. Same thing.
Religious life's not all In this House of Brede, Michael Arditti, etc apparently...
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Humble men have no need to show off their brilliance. Certainly not on first acquaintance. I think you, and he, have bought too much into the myths. These men put their boxers on one leg at a time, much as any other men.
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Even more so than I was before
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The Society of Jesus was founded to bring the Protestants back into the Roman Catholic Church.
Apparently not (according to MacCulloch). Loyola intended a mission to the Holy Land. Pope Paul IV suspected the Jesuits of being covert Protestants, and not without reason. Many of their allies were part of a Reform-minded circle and some did actually go over. It was Loyola's assistant Jeronimo Nadal who was chiefly responsible for redirecting the Jesuits into a mission to Protestants.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
This Anglican diocese, with a strong evangelical bias, has been supported in its work of spiritual direction and training for that ministry, by the encouragement and practical help of the Jesuits. Their methodical and scriptural approach seems to be very congenial to evangelicals, many of whom have undergone training from the Jesuits in spiritual direction.
This is very interesting too. Is this sympathy between evangelicals and Jesuits often found? (Presumably it was not ever thus!) Does it work like that in Latin America, for example?
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
When that failed miserably, they decided it was time for on a new approach. Now they are trying to make Catholics Protestant...
Oh, are they? Good on 'em. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
quote:
And the Jesuit pope which we have now the Church needs about as much as a child with ADHD needs to drink a bottle of Coke.
Your man Francis is every bit as conservative as Benedict was. The secular media are just clueless about Catholicism, is all.
(But it is strangely reassuring to know that Catholics can be just as bitchy about their own as anyone else. Reassuring or depressing, take your pick ...)
Come to think of it, I do know a few fellow evangelicals who've done Ignation retreats or spiritual direction from an Ignatian angle. I'd love to get to St Beuno's myself one day ... I read 'God of Surprises' many years ago and liked it a lot.
This is an interesting thread, thank you.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Pooks
Shipmate
# 11425
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Posted
I can't get into the weightier side of the debate, but I would still like to share my impression of the Jesuits, if you don't mind.
I like them. I fact, I would go so far to say that of all varieties of Christians that I have met in my life, the ones who impressed me the most were three trainee Jesuits and their spiritual director in Ireland. Perhaps it was because they had just come out of their 21 days silent retreat, they seemed to ooze an unspoken joy and a kind of knowing, perhaps of purpose or God himself that I have not seen in others since. Being a pretty curious and ignorant young protestant then, I decided to use the opportunity to ask one of them some basic questions about the practices of Catholicism over a cup of tea (we were staying in a Christian community in Northern Ireland at the time). He answered me with simplicity, patience and kindness, with no hint of contempt for my ignorance. There was no display of arrogance with their learning (7 years of seminary?) and no sign of polite 'them and us' mentality from any of these people. Just humility and joy and a love for humanity that was translated into patience and kindness for one another. I remember thinking at the time, this is how Christians ought be like.
The truth is, I don't know much about the Jesuits or the history of their order. But sometimes, even a chance encounter can count for much. Especially when it leaves a lasting legacy of blessing.
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
Your man Francis is every bit as conservative as Benedict was.
No, he sure isn't.
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
The secular media are just clueless about Catholicism, is all.
That's true.
The real story about Pope Francis is not that he is super extra special. The real story is that he is typical to the point of being slightly boring.
He is the first pope who had his formation as priest post Vatican II. And it shows. The sort of thing he says is the sort of thing you can hear everywhere in RC parishes, and indeed from most bishops (or at least most younger bishops).
Of course, he has his idiosyncrasies and particular topics that are especially dear to him, as well as a specific cultural background. But by and large he is simply a typical post-Vatican II pastor.
That just seems remarkable to outsiders because they look to the Vatican first and foremost, and the predecessors of Pope Francis came from the pre-conciliar era.
In a sense then, the election of Pope Francis makes the RCC more uniform than ever. For better or worse, Vatican II now has seriously arrived in the papacy.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Good God! I agree with leo. The end of the world is nigh.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I often agree with Leo. Is that a hanging offence these days?
The conservatives seem undecided whether Vatican II was the greatest disaster ever to hit the church, or a reassertion of traditional values that has been grossly misunderstood by the closet Marxists and liberals in the pews and presbyteries. Those of us who have been hovering on the banks of the Tiber for many years, waiting for the full implementation of its vision, have pulled back as one window or another in the Vatican was slammed firmly shut. Now it seems we have a Pope who wants to open some of them again.
Good for him, and good for the Jesuits.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
The founder of PICO, an international community organizing network that's done a huge amount of work to bring about the Kingdom, is a Jesuit ordained in 1969. Fr. John Baumann, SJ...a truly amazing man.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
IngoB wrote:
quote:
Also they often seem to favour a tactics of expedient means, using whatever works here and now even if it is not up to their best principles. Again, after a while one starts to wonder if there are any principles that they would ever maintain.
Pierre Trudeau was Prime Minister of Canada for most of the time between 1968 and 1984. By the standards of politicians, he was considred something of an intellectual, and his more ga-ga fans used to talk him up as a "philosopher king". Some also liked to attribute his alleged brilliance to having had a Jesuit education.
In opposing the Quebec separation movement, Trudeua once made the following argument...
"Some people say that if Quebec votes to leave Canada, we have to respect that wish. But do we really? Suppose some country in the Caribbean votes to join Canada, because they like Canadian food, Canadian women, whatever. Do we have to allow them to join simply because they voted to join? Obviously not. So why then do we have to allow Quebec to leave just because they vote to leave?"
I paraphrse, but that was the general argument, as quoted in the biography of Rene Levesque. I trust the logical flaws are self-evident.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
IngoB
Doesn't Catholicism benefit from dialogue and tension between (for the want of better phrases) "conservative (traditional)" and "radical (questioning)" voices within?
Or do you believe that in its relationship with a changing world all questions have already been answered?
I got chided, rightly, by Trisagion a few months ago for describing Pope Francis as a nonconformist. He does seem to be a challenger and a stirrer. That seems to be welcomed by some Catholics and uncomfortable to others.
At the heart of the Counter-Reformation (which gave rise to the Jesuits) there seem to me to have been two forces as work.
1. The recognition that a lot of sheep had strayed from the "true fold".
2. The shepherds of the "true fold" had often not done a very good job of protecting that fold, either as a place of safety for the sheep or a place to hear the truth spoken with love by the shepherds.
Perhaps Pope Francis is simply trying to respond to something like those forces as work within and without Catholicism today? You may see him as wrong-headed, I suppose, but he is surely right in trying to find an appropriate response to those forces.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I certainly would not think of the Jesuit as being founded to convert Protestants to the Catholic faith.The former soldier,Ignatius, founded the society after an intense spiritual experience on his part,in order to bring people closer to Jesus Christ within the context of the Catholic church.
Certainly at the time of the (Protestant) Reformation and the (Catholic) Counter-Reformation the members of the Society of Jesus were leading the way in the return of Catholicism to Austria,Bohemia,Poland and other Eastern European lands.In addition they were the first European missionaries to Japan,China and parts of India.They were involved in inculturation projects where they sought to harmonise traditional Chinese ideas with those of Catholicism,causing problems back at HQ in Rome.
Their strong support for education and for the indigenous peoples in Latin America,albeit in a paternalistic way,lead to problems with some of the Catholic European powers.
That being said of course there was,as everywhere, both abuse and exploitation.
Our local Jesuit community is a fine mixture of good preachers and at their best inspirational priests.
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SeraphimSarov
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# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The Society of Jesus was founded to bring the Protestants back into the Roman Catholic Church.
Apparently not (according to MacCulloch). Loyola intended a mission to the Holy Land. Pope Paul IV suspected the Jesuits of being covert Protestants, and not without reason. Many of their allies were part of a Reform-minded circle and some did actually go over. It was Loyola's assistant Jeronimo Nadal who was chiefly responsible for redirecting the Jesuits into a mission to Protestants.
To be honest, Pope Paul IV thought nearly everyone a covert Protestant even the excellent last Catholic Archbishop of Canterbury, Cardinal Pole
Yes, the Jesuits tried a mission to the Turks but then the Pope gave them the task of reconverting the heretic
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
For better or worse, Vatican II now has seriously arrived in the papacy.
Which is not before time.
Lord help us from the "Spirit of Vatican II " types. Anathema Sit !
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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sososlowly
Apprentice
# 17592
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Posted
I'm a married Anglican father of two who believes that a woman's place is in the House of Bishops, so not a natural aficianado of conservative Catholicism.
But I've always felt strangely drawn to the Jesuits. Their story was the standout highlight of studying the reformation & counter-reformation in high school, and I remember writing to the Master of Campion Hall in Oxford a letter that probably said, "Dear Sir, Please tell me eveything about the Jesuits. Yours sincerely".
He replied kindly, enclosing a pack of vocations stuff(!) and a scholarly reading list.
I made the usual journey of the confused adolescent through various styles of churchmanship in the CofE and have ended up a stereotypical "liberal catholic".
But for me Ignatian prayer, with its ability to take scripture and one's imagination seriously, and its grounding in the incarnation and the sense of God in all things, does the best job of uniting the various fragments of what I'm pleased to call my spitrituality.
I recently came across The Jesuit Guide to Almost Everything by Fr. James Martin which is by far the best and liveliest introduction to Ignatian prayer I've read. I suspect Fr. Martin probably epitomises some of the criticisms that have been made earlier in this thread (liberal, worldly) but for me his work epitomises a key charism of the order; an ability to offer the faith to people shopping in the spirituality supermarket in a way which is authentic but also easy to get hold of.
SSS
Posts: 20 | From: Chichester, West Sussex | Registered: Mar 2013
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
But didn't Voltaire in Candide portray his South American utopia as Jesuit-run?
No, he didn't. I think scholarly consensus at the moment is that the Jesuits were among the only Europeans to treat the indigenous people of South America as fellow human beings. However, for some reason the philosophes, like a lot of people in the eighteenth century, seemed to think that Jesuit government had been absolutely disastrous for South America and it was a jolly good thing that the Spanish had kicked them out.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
But didn't Voltaire in Candide portray his South American utopia as Jesuit-run?
Dumas's use of the Jesuit's in the 3 musketeers sequal is very similar to Dan Brown's use of Opus Day.
I suspect both teach you more about the readers than the organizations.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
The Jesuits have been the spearhead for everything that has gone wrong in the Church over the past century. They should have been suppressed again in the 1980s.
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
The Jesuits have been the spearhead for everything that has gone wrong in the Church over the past century. They should have been suppressed again in the 1980s.
They've spearheaded covering up the sexual abuse of children? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) Because that's without doubt the main problem with the RCC over the past century.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
To be honest, Pope Paul IV thought nearly everyone a covert Protestant even the excellent last Catholic Archbishop of Canterbury, Cardinal Pole
Cardinal Pole was also a member of reformist circles until he returned to England.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
The Jesuits have been the spearhead for everything that has gone wrong in the Church over the past century. They should have been suppressed again in the 1980s.
They've spearheaded covering up the sexual abuse of children? Because that's without doubt the main problem with the RCC over the past century.
Pardon my ignorance but do we have any evidence for that?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
I love the poetry of Gerard Manley Hopkins. Does he count? He was a Jesuit!
I had always understood that Hopkins felt under pressure to give up writing poetry, but I'm not clear how much of that pressure he generated internally, as it were, and how much it came from his superiors and/or from a spiritual adviser.
Whatever the truth of that, it's definitely 'Yea' for the Jesuits from me - maybe even “Yay!” I suppose the fact that I'm a Protestant means my 'vote' (so to speak) may be counter-productive. I believe it's common to argue that what really distinguishes Protestants from Catholics is not anything to do with doctrinal differences as such, but rather the (Protestant) insistence on the primacy of the individual conscience. I can see why such a person might accuse the Jesuits of being sort-of closet Protestants. But I think that argument is fallacious.
I admire the stress the Jesuits place on education and their commitment to intellectual rigour is integrated with their commitment to their faith and the way that includes, amongst other things, not giving a stuff if others perceive you as flaky. And although I recognise that there are sincere Christians who are politically conservative, I don't really understand how they fit that to the gospel. so it doesn't really surprise me that the Society of Jesus has got so mixed up with radical politics, particularly in South America.
Politics aside, some of the most interesting and inspiring ideas about Christian faith that I've encountered in my adult life appear to have come (directly or indirectly) from Jesuits. If anyone could persuade me to swim the Tiber (and – trust me on this – I am not one of those hovering on the banks), it would most likely be a Jesuit.
Finally, I'm sorry to have to confess that one of the things I'm enjoying most is watching those who imagine themselves to be ultra-orthodox (small o) tie themselves in knots over this Pope and his (re)arrival of Vatican II.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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