Posted                       

quote:

---

He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

I've come to the conclusion that the "latest move of God" is to visit a lonely elderly person, or befriend someone who is mentally ill, or to work for a just deal for the homeless or just for average citizens. It does involve spirituality as well. You know, all the boring stuff, like prayer, for example...

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Never heard such a phrase. Is it an evangelical-only buzz word?

---

Yes. Specifically, a charismatic/evangelical buzzword. And if I never hear the bloody phrase again before heaven, I will be a happy bunny.

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I've come to the conclusion that the "latest move of God" is to visit a lonely elderly person, or befriend someone who is mentally ill, or to work for a just deal for the homeless or just for average citizens. It does involve spirituality as well. You know, all the boring stuff, like prayer, for example...

But I guess all that stuff is not very exciting is it? Not much to shout about in a media obsessed age. It doesn't really attract the big bucks. Ah well...

---

Damn straight, EE.

I am not cynical about the Third Person of the Trinity, or His power. But the Spirit is far more to be found in service and humility than He is in the Next Big Hype That Promises Much And Doesn't Deliver All That Much.

--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

I've come to the conclusion that the "latest move of God" is to visit a lonely elderly person, or befriend someone who is mentally ill, or to work for a just deal for the homeless or just for average citizens. It does involve spirituality as well. You know, all the boring stuff, like prayer, for example...

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Never heard such a phrase. Is it an evangelical-only buzz word?

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

originally posted by Gamaliel:
Recently I heard of a rather worrying trend towards Russian Orthodox biker gangs in the former Soviet Union ... they like all the trappings but mix it with xenophobia, anti-semitism and extreme nationalism.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Meanwhile, a second post from EE where I agree with everything he says. Is this a record?

I must admit I'm rather pleased. Not because I have an over-active sense of the rightness of my own position, simply because I'm glad to be on the same page as him.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
What next?! You'll be telling me that the leadership of the EDL is sitting down with Muslims!

---

LOL - you bad monkey, Martin

God's "next big move" sounds like the Lord has been suffering Divine Constipation for some millennia. One would not want to be around for the outcome.

--------------------
“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've no idea what bikes they ride. I wouldn't be surprised if they import Harleys and still bang on and on about the demonic and degenerate West ...

---

Posted                         

quote:

---

'[T]here are some common characteristics that mark off the early phase of dynamic social movements that are distinct from the social structures of the latter institutions that arise from them.

This is as true of the church and other Christian agencies as it is of corporations, community projects, political parties, and other social movements. Whether it be a denomination, parachurch agency, or local church plant - all are launched with a certain ethos and energy that starts with a seminal vision or idea and swells like a wave to impact society round about it.'

---

It goes on to talk about 'sigmoid growth' (see e.g. here) and how 'The goal of churches should be to achieve what strategists call "sigmoid growth", which is the capacity to constantly remain in a state of movement-like growth.'

There's more good stuff, I think, but that's probably enough already. It's taken from The Shaping of Things to Come.

--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Never heard such a phrase. Is it an evangelical-only buzz word?

---

You've never read The Secular City by Harvey Cox?

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
From memory - didn't Peppone ride an Indian?

---

I love you so much for posting this.

When I first became a Christian it was in a church that used the language identified in the OP all the time, often in casual and unspecified ways. Over the years I've become a bit cynical in the ways specified in the OP.

And yet... in the area of the UK I live in, I can see grand things happening. Churches of ALL denominations (not the traditional lot bundling together and the evangelical/ enthusiastic lot working seperately) working together to serve the poorest and most vulnerable in their cities. Churches partnering with secular agencies to help combat poverty.

It's good stuff. It's humans helping other humans with the help of the Holy Spirit. And it's the only sort of activity I've ever seen in churches that I could honestly say looks like a "move of God".

[ 09. October 2013, 11:03: Message edited by: Earwig ]

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Earwig:
It's good stuff. It's humans helping other humans with the help of the Holy Spirit. And it's the only sort of activity I've ever seen in churches that I could honestly say looks like a "move of God".

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by SusanDoris
...as I am at present benefiting from a daily visit from a carer to helpp in my post-op recovery...

---

I wish you all the best in your recovery.

I nearly wrote "I wish you every blessing...", but maybe that's not the best word, given your viewpoint, but I wish you that anyway!

As for God working through people, or people just doing it all themselves, well... I think - or hope - that we can both agree that there are huge mysteries to the universe, and who knows what is really going on "behind the scenes" to motivate people? You have your evolutionary understanding of human kindness; I see it rather differently. But I think we can both agree that kindness is what the world desperately needs (and I am not always the best practitioner of it, unfortunately !).

--------------------
You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cedd007:
... However, read, say, the biographies of someone like Hudson Taylor or Saint Ignatius Loyola, and similar kinds of phrases appear I wouldn't want to question too deeply.

---

Bingo. Likewise St Francis. And the Desert Fathers. And the Wesleys. And ... well, we could go on.

Up-thread, I made typically Ship-like disgusted noises about the clichéd language. But I am not at all cynical about the Holy Spirit or what may in fact be a genuine move of God. Not one bit. We humans say and do all sorts of silly things, including the best and most 'anointed' of us, but God is God, and ... He is always working. Sometimes, yes, in a movement of radical renewal, a movement that shakes up the Church. But also quietly and unobtrusively ... in the lives of people simply getting on and serving others because they love Christ and love other people too.

And many of the 'charismatic' saints who were - and are - much used by God were (and are) pretty eccentric, it seems to me, just a little bit whacky. Like Hildegard of Bingen ...

SusanDoris, I hope you are recovering well after your op.

--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
It all seems to be based on a rather anthropomorphic view of God, which denies his omnipresence. God is "doing something" in such and such a place, with the implication that this is his special work for this year or this whatever period of time you wish to choose.

Even at my most charismatically flakiest, I felt rather troubled by this kind of talk. I reasoned that surely God is active everywhere in different ways, but consistent with his nature.

We used to have "strategic" prayer meetings, in which "this coming year will be the year of such-and-such in the plans of God" and then we'll move on to the next phase of "what God is doing..." Or we would 'strategically' pray for church leaders, councillors etc, with the insinuation that ordinary people were not worth praying for, because that would be a waste of good prayer, and we only have a limited stock of the stuff, so mustn't waste it on the riffraff (that was never said of course - perish the thought! - but it seemed to be the logical implication of our emphasis at times).

This is all about trying to control God. It almost smacks of the occult.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

It's a power and authority theology, rooted in "kingdom now" I suppose, often with the themes of warfare and (spiritual) violence emphasised. The whole "March for Jesus" phenomenon fed (or rather feeds) into this, where people were bored of ordinary worship, so had to take acts of charismatic worship out onto the streets as a weapon to wield against the powers of evil - the strongholds, which if broken would release revival into the towns and cities of our benighted nation. God is likened to a warrior on the move - or on the march, to be more exact. Nothing about love your neighbour in the Good Samaritan sense, and everything about passing by (or marching by) on the other side, treating people as merely candidates for the anticipated power zap, where God will magically do all the Samaritan dirty work which 'we' have facilitated by our great spirituality.

---

quote:

---

, “when we refuse to benefit from another culture’s (or our own) slave labor, and when we come against governments that systemically oppress the masses… when we expose and confront the many subtle forms of structural hatred that presently choke our own culture, whether in the form of systemic prejudice, institutional injustice, or the demonization of other peoples in the name of nationalism, we participate with God in the same spiritual battle that has been going on since the dawn of history.”

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Earwig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
From memory - didn't Peppone ride an Indian?

---

I love you so much for posting this.

When I first became a Christian it was in a church that used the language identified in the OP all the time, often in casual and unspecified ways. Over the years I've become a bit cynical in the ways specified in the OP.

And yet... in the area of the UK I live in, I can see grand things happening. Churches of ALL denominations (not the traditional lot bundling together and the evangelical/ enthusiastic lot working seperately) working together to serve the poorest and most vulnerable in their cities. Churches partnering with secular agencies to help combat poverty.

It's good stuff. It's humans helping other humans with the help of the Holy Spirit. And it's the only sort of activity I've ever seen in churches that I could honestly say looks like a "move of God".

---

Thank you

Whilst I too admire the many people who are doing what they can to help others I can find* no reason to think that having a social conscience requires the involvement of anything extra-human.

*despite still searching - albeit in an occasionally somewhat idiosyncratic way!

SusanDoris good to have you back.

--------------------
The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by HughWillRidmee
Whilst I too admire the many people who are doing what they can to help others I can find* no reason to think that having a social conscience requires the involvement of anything extra-human.

*despite still searching - albeit in an occasionally somewhat idiosyncratic way!

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HughWillRidmee
Whilst I too admire the many people who are doing what they can to help others I can find* no reason to think that having a social conscience requires the involvement of anything extra-human.

*despite still searching - albeit in an occasionally somewhat idiosyncratic way!

---

On this subject, there's an interesting BBC article
here.

It probably won't surprise you that I tend to think that the problems in explaining altruism come down to a world view error, which the article does not consider. It is assumed that a particular view of reality is correct, and no phenomenon can be allowed to challenge its assumptions. I find that very strange, to say the least!

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
On that chatter in the emerging church about a new paradigm of church being on the way, I just read this. It's a rather bold claim, I grant you, but I think it nicely illustrates what I've read in several different places about new ways of being church.

---

I've been hearing about this kind of thing from the emergent/emerging/whatever crowd for the past ten years. I confess that I often find their way of talking about things ... pretentious.

And kind of wishy-washy. For my particular personality type, that is infuriating. And my particular personality type likes boundaries. Boundaries. Don't knock 'em. They matter. Really, they do.

Before I sound too cynical - I'm not, overall - I do think there is a grassroots movement like this happening. And lots of good things happening too, e.g. Christians offering to pray for people at New Age festivals. That is a positive, Christ-centred engagement with the prevailing culture.

But many of the same things that bedevil 'traditional' church will, I think, be the same things that bedevil 'church in a circle' or whatever. Not least the fact that there is always a bigger need than manpower (and womanpower) to help meet it.

Human nature, innit?

--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by HughWillRidmee
I didn't get the assumption you see, nor know what phenomenon/phenomena you are referring to - probably I need you to be more explicit.

---

Posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@South Coast Kevin - I know I keep coming back to this and I know it's not what you're trying to say, but I keep coming back to this issue of why we should assume that 'new ways' of being church are going to somehow be better than old ways ...

I'm not saying that the reverse is true, that new ways are inevitably going to be worse ...

But what I don't understand is why there's this assumption that new = better and somehow more empowering and that old = bad.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
As an Anglican youth, I was taught not to put the surplice on until after the candles were lighted, and remove it before extinguishing the candles... No explanation was ever really provided as a youth, and I suspect that its origin was merely a practical one, such as keeping wax or soot off the pristine surplices.

---

Posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurelin:
But many of the same things that bedevil 'traditional' church will, I think, be the same things that bedevil 'church in a circle' or whatever. Not least the fact that there is always a bigger need than manpower (and womanpower) to help meet it.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure, there's a balance in all of this, South Coast Kevin. Lots of things that have become ritualised over the years had a practical basis ... the Orthodox priests I know are all fully aware of that but this doesn't stop them doing it. Whether they explain the significance to their congregations is a moot point though ...

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

If we don't believe in 'the next big move of God', and we clearly don't, then a North African future seems to be fairly likely.

---

Posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think we could see the UK become like North Africa apart from the major urban centres where Christianity will largely be a migrant/ethnic minority thing. I fully expect it to have largely died out in some rural and semi-rural areas.

Less than 10% of people go to church in my small Cheshire town and the vast majority of those that do are probably 50+.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Far more people than 10% claim some kind of affiliation with Christianity. For whatever reason (and there are many different ones, no doubt), only a small proportion of people who say they are Christian actually show up in the church attendance stats. [...]

I wonder also if there are plenty of people meeting up in more informal ways to do Christian sort of things who won't show up in any standard church attendance surveys. Some of these people will call their group a church (even though most others might not recognise it as such), but I'm sure there must be others who meet maybe in fairly ad hoc, sporadic fashion, but still to talk about faith and spirituality issues, and maybe to pray.

This is why I think there's such potential in the simple / organic church movement. Many people consider themselves religious / spiritual in a Christian sense but don't attend church in its traditional institutional forms. From what I gather (mostly through reading but also a bit of personal experience), plenty of these people are up for Christian-type meetings and activities, just without the institutional stuff.

---