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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Lampedusa
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
I would like to turn the eyes on deck towards another ship, or rather a whole flotilla, consisting of decrepit rafts stacked to the gunwales with human cargo, making it (or not) to the shores of Southern Europe.
What are we to do with this wave of immigrants, most of whom have no qualifications and are unlikely to ever acquire any? What do we think about the Politicians’ suggestions, ranging from opening the doors (the humane thing to do? Or something that destroys our societies, economies, and security, something we Europeans are no doubt entitled to? Or both? Must we sacrifice our Europe in one grand, final, noble gesture? ) to stepping up the patrols on the Med and turn any refugee boat firmly away (monstrous? Non-Christian? Or legitimate self-defense because only a healthy Europe can help weaker nations?)
What do shipmates think? What’s the Christian thing to do?
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
Thank you! I was looking for a thread on this topic. Heard on the BBC this morning: Europeans are supposed to go on a guilt trip... for what? For having developed and maintained a civilization so desirable that others risk their lives to reach it?
I saw a web site recently ranking countries according to corruption. Most of the least corrupt countries in the world are European (the northernmost the least corrupt of all). They are also among the most prosperous, surprise. Obviously, one way to keep Africans from killing themselves to get to Europe is to let Europe become as corrupt, violent, and unstable as the places these unfortunates are leaving. That would be the easy way. The harder way is to make Somalia, Sudan, Eritrea like Europe as to corruption, violence, and stability. Can we do that for them? Suggestions are welcome, but no efforts either military or humanitarian have borne much fruit thus far. As long as they adhere to their religion, I'm not optimistic. They'll need to do this for themselves.
So Europe rescues these refugees. What then? Where will Europe put them? The safer the journey becomes, the more refugees will throng the shores. Look at the map. Europe is small, Africa is big. See the easy option above.
It's a heartbreaking headache. The only silver lining I see is that even China is now outsourcing jobs to places like Bangladesh and Africa. I'm not fond of laissez-faire capitalism but it seems to be the most effective long-term bootstrap on the horizon.
Meanwhile Europeans should remember that Christianity forged Europe as it is. Whether the church can safely be kicked over like a ladder after reaching the roof should not be taken for granted.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
The really evil people in all this are the traffickers who make money from other's desperation. The risks have to be made greater than the rewards to stop them doing this. I don't know what the potential sentences for trafficking are in Italy but if they are causing deaths they should be done for manslaughter as well. Sentences like that received by Perry Wacker when he caused the death of 58 people at Dover are far too short.
While everything is being done to stop the exploitation of these people, a rational, intelligent debate should happen internationally about how asylum seekers should be dealt with around the world. The 1951 Convention which deals with what constitutes a genuine asylum claim should be looked at afresh to see if it is still fit for purpose more than sixty years later. (Please note I'm not saying if it should be tightened or loosened, just that it should be revisited). This debate should not be the populist, semiracist discussion that seems to have taken over in recent years. The political polarised let nobody in versus let everyone in clearly doesn't work.
This is not an Italian problem, this is not a European problem, this is an international problem which also includes the countries these people come from not just those that they arrive to.
I fear however that a rational and intelligent debate about immigration is no longer possible and tragedies will continue to occur while the situation is kept on the too hard pile.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chive
This is not an Italian problem, this is not a European problem, this is an international problem which also includes the countries these people come from not just those that they arrive to.
Exactly! It is the tip of the world problem. Overpopulation, depletion of resources like land and water, Climate change are all causing the migrations within and out of countries that are listed in the magazine Foreign Policy's annual report of failed or failing states. Africa heads the list of the first 23 states in 2012.
I recommend Lester Brown's book, "World On the Edge", outlining the reasons that threaten our planet's future and his website earth-policy.org LINK HERE. Browne details the ,any factors that are coming to attention and gives the dollar cost that the US could contribute to reduce the trend.
[ 12. October 2013, 13:53: Message edited by: IconiumBound ]
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Thank you! I was looking for a thread on this topic. Heard on the BBC this morning: Europeans are supposed to go on a guilt trip... for what? For having developed and maintained a civilization so desirable that others risk their lives to reach it?
But this civilisation was built to a large extent by plundering resources from many of those countries whose citizens are now trying to escape. Did we ask them 200 and more years ago for permission to invade their countries or the right to live there?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
But this civilisation was built to a large extent by plundering resources from many of those countries whose citizens are now trying to escape. Did we ask them 200 and more years ago for permission to invade their countries or the right to live there?
Does that mean the present situation is our fault? If so, we have even more reason to assume responsibility. But what would that taking of responsibility look like? Opening the doors and accepting the (very high) risk of losing our own economic viability in the medium term and thereby just helping the present, but not future, generations of migrants? Or trying to eradicate the problem at its roots, which basically means going back there and help them run things (if that is realistically possible at all)?
The question is one of what can realistically be done and of moral duty: we are duty bound to help, but to what extent does that duty hold if helping will mean depleting our own resources/strength and dissolving our own society.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
It's certainly a headache but I'm not sure these migrants are without qualifications as stated in the OP. The qualifications may not be recognised in Europe but that doesn't mean migrants are without skills or talents.
The surveys that show European countries to be less corrupt than others are devised by, yes, you've guessed it, Europeans, or at any rate organisations like the G20 which have bought in to the European free-trade model. Any African, Asian or Central or South American group could construct alternative criteria showing how perfidious Europe is while showing their places to be bastions of freedom and probity. They would look wonky to most of us but then we're mostly Westerners (ie Euro/Americans by culture).
While Europe was forged by Christianity we should also note that South and Central America has had four or five centuries of it and many of those nations, sometimes thanks to colonialisation, sometimes not, are little better than Africa, parts of which have had little more than a hundred years of Christian influence.
Finally, isn't it worth noting that Christianity came from the very same part of the world as some of these migrants that are seen as such a problem now? Had it not been for the movement possible within the Roman Empire would the West be remotely Christian? No, we would in all probability have been dominated by the Mongol Horde, followed by goodness knows what.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Does that mean the present situation is our fault?
No, we didn't select our (grand)parents, and in many cases our parents were victims of the same system.
They didn't select their parents, in some cases their parents may have done well out the system.
However because of what happened [and continues to happen] London is the city it is, and Kinshasa is the city it is. And so we can't just pretend either.
[ 12. October 2013, 14:52: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Thank you! I was looking for a thread on this topic. Heard on the BBC this morning: Europeans are supposed to go on a guilt trip... for what? For having developed and maintained a civilization so desirable that others risk their lives to reach it?
But this civilisation was built to a large extent by plundering resources from many of those countries whose citizens are now trying to escape. Did we ask them 200 and more years ago for permission to invade their countries or the right to live there?
Perhaps not, but how is a present-day citizen of one of these African countries affected by what happened 200+ years ago?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
The whole thing reminds me of a book I read years ago, the Camp of the Saints by Jean Raspail. Brief plot here , free English version here .
The book was published in 1973- it is so politically incorrect that I very much doubt any publisher would touch it with a bargepole today. But it made stirring reading.
Raspail was heavily criticised for the book, some countries banned it. But the problem it points at did not go away. Part of today's mess is that we (I can only speak of Europe) never made any contingency plan for what was going to happen in all likelihood, and is happening now.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Perhaps not, but how is a present-day citizen of one of these African countries affected by what happened 200+ years ago?
Because the citizen's who liven in Africa 200+ years ago were affected by what happened 200+ and ... the citizen's who lived in Africa 100 years ago were affected by what happened 200+ years ago (which made it easier for the western european countries to re-invade and exploit division, and if none of them are still alive, that gives some lives affected already) and that affected the citizens 70 years who were living in segregated colonial rule... and some of them were unable to build the infrastructure that would be handy because the west/east had given weapons and money to rebels and the east/west were giving weapons and money to support a friendly dictator... and that had an effect 40 years on on others were still living under segregated rule, and didn't have the money they needed to build nice hospitals or roads etc... etc...
and oddly enough this had an affect on the people who are born today, I can't think why.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Thank you! I was looking for a thread on this topic. Heard on the BBC this morning: Europeans are supposed to go on a guilt trip... for what? For having developed and maintained a civilization so desirable that others risk their lives to reach it?
I'm not sure "compassion" is synonymous with "guilt". Also, I'm not sure how "desirable" a civilization is if an economic union with a population of approximately half a billion can be destroyed by admitting several thousand refugees. Seems more "precarious" than "desirable". If the "unskilled immigrants = social collapse" trope were true, wouldn't we expect countries like the United States to have become some kind of primitive backwater by the twentieth century?
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Perhaps not, but how is a present-day citizen of one of these African countries affected by what happened 200+ years ago?
Given that most of the countries under discussion only regained their independence in the mid-twentieth century, this seems a little glib. I usually assume that anyone offering the "who could possibly be affected by this thing that existed within living memory" argument is arguing in bad faith.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The first world plundered the third world to become the first world. And continues to plunder the third world.
So, we created the situation and continue to benefit.
Yeah, not our problem; send the filthy buggers back.
ETA: Cheer up, people; 27 fewer to worry about, innit.
[ 12. October 2013, 15:47: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Silly Sioni. Colour of skin, gender, continent, country, then religion. Get your priorities in order.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
It's certainly a headache but I'm not sure these migrants are without qualifications as stated in the OP. The qualifications may not be recognised in Europe but that doesn't mean migrants are without skills or talents.ngol Horde, followed by goodness knows what.
Indeed - most of the asylum seekers who come to the UK have better qualifications that those already born here.
It takes a hell of lot of ability to get here in the first place.
We should welcome them with open arms.
Not only because the Bible says that we should but also because we need their superior skills.
[ 12. October 2013, 19:30: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We should welcome them with open arms.
Not only because the Bible says that we should but also because we need their superior skills.
Shouldn't we decide whether or not to accept an asylum seeker based on the terror that he's escaping rather than his qualifications?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Yes. If the authorities hadn't allowed those Moabite immigrants in we wouldn't have all the problems they and their descendants caused that really upset our way of life.
<Warning, contains sarcasm>
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
It is very simple.
We should do unto others as we would have them do unto us.
What would you need if you were in their situation?
There is your answer.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
It is very simple.
We should do unto others as we would have them do unto us.
What would you need if you were in their situation?
There is your answer.
What if I am not them?
(That is to say, what I require in a given situation may not be what you require in that situation)
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
From to OP: quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
immigrants, most of whom have no qualifications and are unlikely to ever acquire any?
I find this statement offensive and racist.
Where asylum seekers are allowed to integrate into society there is no reason why they shouldn't acquire them.
I'm not sure whether the racism in that statement lies with the writer of the post or with the attitude to immigrants of the receiving countries.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
If the "unskilled immigrants = social collapse" trope were true, wouldn't we expect countries like the United States to have become some kind of primitive backwater by the twentieth century?
Insert joke about the government shutdown here.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We should welcome them with open arms.
Not only because the Bible says that we should but also because we need their superior skills.
Shouldn't we decide whether or not to accept an asylum seeker based on the terror that he's escaping rather than his qualifications?
Far from weakening any case for welcoming them that gives two reasons for accepting asylum seekers.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We should welcome them with open arms.
Not only because the Bible says that we should but also because we need their superior skills.
Shouldn't we decide whether or not to accept an asylum seeker based on the terror that he's escaping rather than his qualifications?
Far from weakening any case for welcoming them that gives two reasons for accepting asylum seekers.
Surely it undermines it? There's a difference between asylum seekers and common or garden immigrants. Asylum seekers are seeking asylum because they are suffering some kind of danger or persecution. Surely the strength of their claim should be made on the severity of that danger or persecution? If you start to consider them on the basis of whether or not they hold a university degree you stop deciding their cases based on their plight. In effect, you stop treating them as asylum seekers.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
With Boogie and Balaam here. Surprised such an offensively racist post has come from the OP ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
As for the nationalism (continent-ism?) of 'our Europe' - there is no such thing as 'our Europe'. 'The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it' Psalm 24:1. The whole Earth belongs to the whole of God's creation. Including brown-skinned immigrants.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Surprised such an offensively racist post has come from the OP
There may be a bit of a tangent here, but as far as I can see the OP has asked a question: should we do (a) or do (b) and given a few arguments either way. How on earth is that 'offensively racist'?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Surprised such an offensively racist post has come from the OP
There may be a bit of a tangent here, but as far as I can see the OP has asked a question: should we do (a) or do (b) and given a few arguments either way. How on earth is that 'offensively racist'?
'most of whom have no qualifications and are unlikely to ever acquire any' is what is racist. Since when did being an immigrant = incapable of gaining qualifications?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
'most of whom have no qualifications and are unlikely to ever acquire any' is what is racist. Since when did being an immigrant = incapable of gaining qualifications?
I agree that it doesn't, but it might not be an unreasonable guess if one knows the background of those on board? (I must confess that I don't.)
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
'most of whom have no qualifications and are unlikely to ever acquire any' is what is racist. Since when did being an immigrant = incapable of gaining qualifications?
I agree that it doesn't, but it might not be an unreasonable guess if one knows the background of those on board? (I must confess that I don't.)
Even those without qualifications can gain them while living in their host country. The idea that being an immigrant prevents one from learning and gaining qualifications is bizarre, racist and just not true at all.
The real criminals, as has been said upthread, are the people traffickers.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Cedd007
Shipmate
# 16180
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Posted
Recalling the TV drama called 'The march' I came across this, which I think is good comment on the present situation: http://forthefainthearted.com/2013/10/04/again-and-again-and-again/
I just happen to have come home from an 'African evening' for the purpose of raising money for a kind of 'holocaust memorial church' in Rwanda. The lady who cooked the African food for us came from Zimbabwe, and, although not herself one of the official speakers, gave us an impromptu five minutes about her own upbringing. Her father came from a poor family, mother was rich, and they decided to spend every penny on their children's education, and not on non-essentials like crockery. We had just been watching a moving film from the charity 'Mary's meals', and she said she identified with the children in the film: education was so important. (She is now a very successful human rights lawyer in this country.) The main speaker was involved with twinning our local school with one in Kenya: clearly our children could learn an awful lot from African schoolchildren about what education is worth.
My understanding is that many of the recent refugees were mainly Syrians and Afghans.
Ever since returning from a year's teaching in Africa in the late 1960's, I have been saddened by the way the continent is misunderstood and stereotyped. This happens for a number of reasons, including, I believe, latent racism, contempt and condescension towards African people, and a mistaken belief that we British are better than other people. Africa is poor, and while it is not helpful to blame ourselves for this, it's not helpful to blame Africans either.
There are signs that the economy in many of Africa's 53 or so nations is beginning to take off. How on earth will we cope with a rich Africa?
Posts: 58 | From: Essex, United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2011
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
(...) as far as I can see the OP has asked a question: should we do (a) or do (b) and given a few arguments either way. How on earth is that 'offensively racist'?
Thank you. My intention in the OP was to juxtapose positions on an issue which I thought most people agreed does pose a problem (or challenge, if you prefer that type of phraseology) to society in Europe.
The idea was to invite thoughts on how that problem/issue/challenge could be tackled in a way that is (a) humane and (b) economically and socially viable in the long term.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
The problem here is fear - fear of the unknown, of 'other' people and of scarce resources being swamped.
Except that our resources (here in Europe) are not scarce - they are abundant! We throw away food, we recycle little (Go to a small village in Uganda and you will see real recycling) We waste energy. We shut ourselves away and ignore community.
Maybe we need a little shaking up and change?
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cedd007:
How on earth will we cope with a rich Africa?
For a start, all the fashionable lefties will start hating them instead of us. For seconds, we'll just emigrate to where the money is so that we can get plenty of it for ourselves. After all, if it's so obvious that Europe can cope with a massive influx of Africans then surely Africa, being much larger, could easily cope with a massive influx of Europeans.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Thank you! I was looking for a thread on this topic. Heard on the BBC this morning: Europeans are supposed to go on a guilt trip... for what? For having developed and maintained a civilization so desirable that others risk their lives to reach it?
Aside from the other comments on this, assuming you're European, and (like me) living on the fruits of this, how much did you or I individually contribute towards developing such a desirable civilization? Or did we just fluke the benefits because we just happened to have been born here?
For me, realizing how lucky I am makes me want to share those benefits with people who didn't luck out being born to the same advantages, not hoard it all Gollum style.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
This is a problem which, sadly, is well known here. A boat carrying many asylum seekers was dashed against the rocks of an Aust island. Most were lost. In the last couple of weeks, another boat, barely off the Indonesian coast, capsized and again many more were drowned. These are just 2 examples.
Some of those seeking asylum may not have been refugees within the convention. Statistics show that somewhere around 90% of those whose claims are processed are found by departmental officials to be genuine refugees. Many of the others take their claims on appeals through tribunals and the courts and a few of these are successful - because the legislation severely restricts the bases upon which appeals may be allowed.
What has been the reaction of most politicians, and of the radio shock-jocks? To demonise any person seeking to reach our shores by unauthorised boat. To ignore the reality that few people fleeing the war in Afghanistan will have correct paperwork and to assert that they therefore cannot be genuine in their claims. it is our national shame.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
The problem here is fear - fear of the unknown, of 'other' people and of scarce resources being swamped.
Except that our resources (here in Europe) are not scarce - they are abundant!
People wanting to see a doctor in a place that is very popular with migrants - Peterborough, for example - might take a very different view about 'abundant resources'.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Aside from the other comments on this, assuming you're European, and (like me) living on the fruits of this, how much did you or I individually contribute towards developing such a desirable civilization? Or did we just fluke the benefits because we just happened to have been born here?
For me, realizing how lucky I am makes me want to share those benefits with people who didn't luck out being born to the same advantages, not hoard it all Gollum style.
Personally, I feel very fortunate to have won first prize in the lottery of life.
But how do we 'share those benefits'? Surely to be fair we have to share with everyone who isn't as fortunate as ourselves? But that's billions of people. How can we 'share our benefits' without destroying our own society?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I often think the life-boats bobbing around mid-Atlantic minutes after the Titanic went down makes a sobering lesson in life .
Heart-rending yes , but when destruction is staring you in the face saving your own skin soon becomes the priority.
OK Britain could take a million of these folks, maybe even 10 million at a push. But without effective birth control in blighted lands those disadvantaged millions will be replaced in a short period of time.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Meanwhile in the real world….
quote:
While they wait for the grants given to asylum-seekers, which are subject to long delays, the migrants can use a local currency in Riace, with vouchers bearing portraits of ... Che Guevara.
Wow. Just wow.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Meanwhile in the real world….
Good for them. But again, just because one village does that voluntarily doesn't mean every village, town or city should be forced to do it.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
.... without effective birth control in blighted lands those disadvantaged millions will be replaced in a short period of time.
There may not be effective birth control there, but in many of the countries from which migrants come, rates of infant mortality (death under one year) and childhood mortality (death under 5 years) fulfils a similar purpose, if one is solely concernedwith population control. Definitely worth fleeing from.
In any event, birth control usage in Britain is nothing to be proud of, as shown by our teenage pregnancy statistics.
Incidentally Marvin, who are these "fashionable lefties"? I might a leftie but I don't see it as fashionable at all! Government policy is driven entirely by global, liberal economics, and even that of the EU is timid regarding corporate dominance. Come to think of it, shouldn't corporations, rather then the current and past behaviour of nation states, take some of the responsibility for migration from poorer to richer countries at this time?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
In Terry Jones' children's book Nicobobinus, the protagonists arrive in a city that seems delightfully civilized, but eventually they discover that all its power, warmth and comfort derives from the poor miserable dragons chained in its cellars. That seems to me a metaphor for our world – we allow evil to flourish and then complain when the results wash up on our shores, dead or alive. What happened in the past is important, and should not be forgotten, but what we have to do is deal with what is going on now.
The real criminals aren't the traffickers – wicked as they are, they are small beer compared with all the people exploiting the misery of poorer countries: selling weapons and instruments of torture to corrupt regimes because they are our 'friends' (sometimes even when they aren't our friends – a customer is a customer, after all); speculating in food; destroying rainforests and communities in order to satisfy our demand for palm oil and beef; investing in dirty energy projects; trading with companies who use bonded labour. This is a global problem, so we need to resolve it globally.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Good post Q-lib . ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Evidence , if ever evidence were needed, we do indeed inhabit a fallen world .
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) Let us lay down our weapons to feed the hungry and clothe the naked .
But yeah , back to the real world .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cedd007:
Africa is poor, and while it is not helpful to blame ourselves for this,
Oh, actually, I think it is. Not only were many of our countries built on African backs, not only did we sow the seeds of the preset fruit, but we continue to profit at the cost of Africans.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
So what do you want us to do? I'd appreciate details rather than general socialist soundbites.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
So you'd be happy with general fascist soundbites?
Don't think their are simple solutions. We need to examine our various dealings and change what we accept. We'll take chocolate for starters. The importers of chocolate cold have completely ethically sourced chocolate with minimal effort, at a cost which would not even be noticed by the consumer.
The economic might of the recipient nations could force reforms.
It is a fallacy that business could not make profit, pay reasonable wage, treat workers humanely and sell moderately priced goods all at the same time. It is Greed, pure and simple.
Yes, there are problems this will not immediately solve. And no, this is not quite easy or simple.
None of that changes the accuracy of what I stated.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Cedd007
Shipmate
# 16180
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Cedd007:
Africa is poor, and while it is not helpful to blame ourselves for this,
Oh, actually, I think it is. Not only were many of our countries built on African backs, not only did we sow the seeds of the preset fruit, but we continue to profit at the cost of Africans.
Thank you for this neat summing up of the relationship between Africa and 'us'. Perhaps there are some people who need to acknowledge the truth you're stating here, but I do think the idea needs to be cautiously handled. Let me expand a bit on what I meant by saying 'it is not helpful to blame ourselves' for African poverty.
I don't think that either the 'Scramble for Africa' in the 19th Century or the way 'we' still exploit it in the 21st Century are the only reasons why, for the time being, Africa remains behind the rest of the world in terms of prosperity. The most important reason is, I think, Geography, where formidable problems, instead of providing healthy challenges to human development, have combined to stifle it. (As a continent, only Antarctica has fared worse in this respect!)
The second most important set of problems are Historical: this might be summed up by saying that West Africa might have produced strong states at the same time Europe did, but, as luck would have it, didn't.
My point was that colonial and post-colonial wrongs tend to become the only explanations for African poverty. I think it is for that reason that African politicians themselves have tended to stop blaming colonialism for the problems their countries face.
However, the pursuit of truth, by historians for example, is another matter. Recent revelations of how Mau Mau detainees in the 1950's were treated were shocking: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22790037
and monetary compensation was wholly appropriate. The destruction of records by the colonial authorities relating to these events was also shocking. Even Stalin left records intact, on the grounds that History would ultimately vindicate him!
Finally, of course, this is just one aspect of considering one's own responsibility on this vast stage, as a citizen for example.
Posts: 58 | From: Essex, United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2011
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