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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why do people who practise religion report greater loneliness than those who do not?
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24522691
This seems very strange to me.
Are not churches/faith groups/communal religious observance supposed to be an antidote to the experience of loneliness?
What is going on?
Personally, I find that church attendance is a very lonely experience. I know that envy is a sin which we should not indulge in, but I find myself conflicted when in church and am in a constant state of envy as I observe the happy families/couples engage in social interaction from which I am subtly excluded. No secular experience is a as lonely as this.
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Couldn't the conclusion also be the other way around? That people who feel lonely are more attracted to religion?
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Indeed.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I was interested by the link on the BBC page to the feature about the woman living as a hermit. It struck me that she is alone, and believes it's how she is meant to be; but to be lonely is to be alone and believe it's not how you're meant to be.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The dreaded correlation/causation hoodoo strikes again, as Le Roc points out.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think one would have to investigate the studies more to understand exactly what they measured. However I suspect that LeRoc has a point - or at least half a point. Lonely people are attracted to religion, as a ready made community, but many churches are not that welcoming in reality.
People who suffer from loneliness are, in some cases at least, lonely because they struggle to make friends and be involved sociably. A church setting where they still feel excluded can make these feeling even worse.
And I have been in churches - many churches, ones I have attended for a while - and felt desperately lonely. The other aspect of this is that, in many church setups, while they claim to be open and welcoming, are not actually wanting to talk about some of the real difficulties people face.
This outward impression of friendliness, and inward reality of caution and closedness, would make many people feel lonely, whether they were prepared to admit it or not.
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
Brilliantly expressed, SC.
I think church websites, which invariably stress how "welcome" everyone is, should have a section addressed to potential and actual attenders/members frankly pointing out the danger of experiencing greater loneliness by attending or seeking to be involved. A sort of caveat emptor warning. Proceed with caution and at your own risk. You are likely to be terribly disappointed. If it is turns out better, that's great but the odds are against it.
[ 21. October 2013, 12:36: Message edited by: Francophile ]
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
The religion bit is in a side bar to the main article and offer its own suggestions to the correlation -
quote:
Interestingly, people who practise a religion are more likely to feel lonelier now than they did ten years ago.
That could be because older people are both more likely to be lonely and more likely to belong to a religion.
Equally it could be that more people who feel lonely are turning to faith groups for support.
Certainly congregations around here are people of a certain age - often 70+, so they are those who are affected by health issues that get in the way of socialising, spouses may have died, some of their friends certainly will have, and even when they get to church they see the empty chairs of those who are no longer around. And with 40 years of massive culture change and no change within churches they are not the places to offer new friendships or to watch children grow up or.... many of the things that help break the sense of loneliness.
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
This is part of a wider conversation on living alone across the BBC radio regions
This clip * is specific about lonliness in church - though more it sounds as being the 'odd one out' in a group.
*only available for a month
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Schroedings Cat
Define "Welcoming".
Do you want a church that has a ready made social group that you can belong to.
Do you want a church where people will remember your name and ask after you once you have been there once.
Do you want a church that has a welcoming person who shakes your hand at the door and shows you to your place.
Do you want a church where people talk with you over refreshments.
Do you want a church where members ask you to sit beside them from the first week.
Do you want a church that gives you a welcome pack that gives you information on what to expect.
Do you want a church that asks you to a social immediately.
Do you want a church where you go home with a couple of members phone number after a visit.
Do you want a church that will work to remove problems caused by your disability.
Do you want one that openly says it welcomes your particular group of people.
Oh I can go on. I am URC and we ARE welcoming (just go through the Mystery Worshipper reports if you do not believe me). However it is clear to me from being in several URCs that they do NOT mean the same thing by "welcoming".
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
Personally, I find that church attendance is a very lonely experience. I know that envy is a sin which we should not indulge in, but I find myself conflicted when in church and am in a constant state of envy as I observe the happy families/couples engage in social interaction from which I am subtly excluded. No secular experience is a as lonely as this.
So it's seeing happy families/couples that highlights what you want but don't have that makes you feel more lonely?
As to being subtly excluded: why is that? Because you yearn to be a part of that intimate relationship but can't be because you aren't part of a family/couple?
There is a difference between being a single person in church that develops relationships with others in time, but family/couple bonds will inevitably be different. I doubt that's a church thing: just a blood/intimate relationship thing.
Of course, if your church just generally doesn't make an effort with new people then that's a different story altogether.
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a theological scrapbook
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I live alone, and among my few friends hardly any of them go to church, and I hate going to a Sunday church service as a member of the congregation. So many CofE churches give the impression from the outset that they're really only interested in "traditional" families - which is code for "we've been taught that churches have to have children in them, so ... oh dear, you don't seem to have any. Next!" That overall impression, combined with the generally godawful "family service" or (usually worse) "all age worship", does not make church a happy place for a single fifty-something.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Maybe that's why Cathedral attendance has increased? Caters better to the singles?
Probably. Someone should do a survey, if they haven't already.
But if the cathedral has a school from which the choir is selected, the School Mums can form a very identifiable in-crowd, of the pashmina-and-4x4 variety. ("We had to buy the bigger car when Jocasta started playing the piccolo in the school orchestra. It's practically luggage, darling.")
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
Evensong
Your first two questions: yes and yes.
I know it's my inadequacy which I am projecting onto others. Or whatever the psychological theory is.
But I still feel lonely at church where realtionship and family life are Everything.
It's not much different from allowing a person who hasn't eaten for a week and is starving to attend a buffet with piles of food and watch others partake while the hungry person can only observe. That person is going to feel hungrier than if they were outwith the presence of the happy tuck-in.
[ 21. October 2013, 13:18: Message edited by: Francophile ]
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Lots of people are lonely, I don't know if religious people are more lonely than others or not, but I can think of a couple of factors that *could* contribute to loneliness.
1. Emphasis on the *importance* of time alone - for personal Bible study and personal prayer.
2. Time conflicts with the socially active culture, like if the party gets swinging on Saturday night just about the time you need to head home for bed if you want to get to church, or the interest group gathering is Sunday mornings, or the group plan a weekend trip that you have to skip because you have to be in church Sunday morning.
Or conflict with socially dominant recreation activities such as getting drunk or telling jokes that imply adultery is funny instead of tragic, or gossiping. All of which is why non-religious say religious people don't have fun.
3. As others have pointed out, lack of actual friendships in church. Some people find a church where they make real friends, the kind where you feel safe being honest about who you are. Lots of people don't. Going to church is, for some, an environment of being politely left out when others, like those who grew up together in the area, are obviously enjoying each other at church but you aren't succeeding at making connections (because you aren't someone they perceive as having a lot in common to converse about).
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
It's not just churches. I've been a member of a number of clubs and societies that have vaunted how friendly they are and been lonely at them. There're cliques everywhere and they're damned hard to break into, especially if you're a bit different to the local norm.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
Karl, that's true, I have no doubt.
The difference is that the church is supposed to be representing Christ on earth and to be filled with the Holy Spirit etc etc. A bit different from your local model aircraft club.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Very good points, Karl. I would almost reverse the normal argument - if you want to overcome your loneliness, don't go to a church, because it won't. And don't join clubs and so on, as they may well make you feel worse! One reason is that such groups often deal in persona to persona stuff, which is very nice, but not all that intimate.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
Q: how do you overcome loneliness? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
Q: how do you overcome loneliness?
Good question. I would extend this to another question: what kind of loneliness have you got? I think there are different kinds, with different solutions. Some people miss being with others in a chatty situation; some people want a deeper intimacy; some people have a spiritual loneliness, from the alone to the alone, kind of thing. There are probably others as well.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
Types 2 and 3. I can engage in general social situations and am not "shy" socially or professionally. But I can't engage with others at a deeper level and, although I try, have no spiritual engagement.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I forgot another one: some people want sex.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I forgot another one: some people want sex.
Will not relieve loneliness. And the lonely know it.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I forgot another one: some people want sex.
Will not relieve loneliness. And the lonely know it.
I don't agree with that. I think it can relieve a certain kind of loneliness. I think people get too up in the air and rarefied about this. Some people want good physical contact, and it's very comforting.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I just thought of another kind - I've worked with people who used to get lonely in social situations, and then, if they spent some time alone, the loneliness disappeared. So I think there is a 'loneliness for oneself' which is difficult to describe, but I am sure, exists. It's like being cut off from oneself, and then needing to reconnect with whatever feelings, thoughts, images, are being disconnected. Going into a social situation will tend to make it worse. Of course, most introverts will recognize this one.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
The religion bit is in a side bar to the main article and offer its own suggestions to the correlation -
quote:
Interestingly, people who practise a religion are more likely to feel lonelier now than they did ten years ago.
That could be because older people are both more likely to be lonely and more likely to belong to a religion.
Equally it could be that more people who feel lonely are turning to faith groups for support.
Certainly congregations around here are people of a certain age - often 70+, so they are those who are affected by health issues that get in the way of socialising, spouses may have died, some of their friends certainly will have, and even when they get to church they see the empty chairs of those who are no longer around. And with 40 years of massive culture change and no change within churches they are not the places to offer new friendships or to watch children grow up or.... many of the things that help break the sense of loneliness.
British Churchgoers as a whole are older than the wider population, especially in churches such as the Methodists and the URC. Indeed, there was some research a while ago that said that Methodists lived longer than the general population:
http://www.methodist.org.uk/news-and-events/news-archive-2010/methodists-live-longer-than-the-average-brit
The downside of being an elderly British Christian and especially a Methodist is that you're likely to be attending a lot of funerals. That might make you feel lonely.
The problem of being a lonely, youngish, single person in a church full of 'smug marrieds' with young children strikes me as more of an issue in London or the South East than in other parts of the country.
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
Karl, that's true, I have no doubt.
The difference is that the church is supposed to be representing Christ on earth and to be filled with the Holy Spirit etc etc. A bit different from your local model aircraft club.
It's reasonable to expect a community of Christ's followers to have at least a fairly fundamental ability to express warmth and welcome, it's also realistic to remember that people are people are people. It's very sad if there are churches - and there surely are - which don't reach out in that way. Though, of course, in remembering that the Church represents Christ on earth, we also recall Christ's own sufferings - which it would appear from scripture we are to be prepared to share; and this included the most intense loneliness and isolation.
It does sound a little, from your opening post, that loneliness appears to be a fairly natural state for you at the moment, and is being sadly exacerbated by the sight of others who are apparently - so far as you can tell - not as lonely as you are. That these apparently happy people are being un-lonely in a place where allegedly everyone is supposed to feel good and happy and content, no doubt makes it worse. But I don't think Church works that way, ever has, or necessarily should do.
It should, of course, seek to alleviate the loneliness of its members as much as possible. Including the loneliness of those who belong to apparently happy families and couples. I think the whole issue about religion, per se, creating lonely people is a bit of a red herring.
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Svitlana: quote:
a church full of 'smug marrieds' with young children...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) I wondered how long it would be before someone trotted out that phrase.
If I wasn't so exhausted from the strain of looking after my child and trying to hold down a full-time job at the same time I might be lonely too. I certainly don't get much chance to talk with other adults (except here, which is Not The Same as having a face-to-face chat with friends).
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Svitlana: quote:
a church full of 'smug marrieds' with young children...
I wondered how long it would be before someone trotted out that phrase.
If I wasn't so exhausted from the strain of looking after my child and trying to hold down a full-time job at the same time I might be lonely too. I certainly don't get much chance to talk with other adults (except here, which is Not The Same as having a face-to-face chat with friends).
'Smug marrieds', 'selfish singles' - stereotyping is too easy! Of course, there are smug marrieds, and not just in church either. But we do forget however superficially good the packaging is when viewed for an hour in church on a Sunday morning, most (all?) families have serious challenges and problems, too. Many married people can experience loneliness - one might argue of a different kind, but not necessarily of a more bearable kind.
However, I remember someone trying to reconcile me to being alone and lonely and in a challenging ministry by telling me of the problems of a young man he knew whose problems included how to cope with his girlfriend visiting/staying at the rectory, where the church office also was situated, complete with part-time secretary. How to live one's life discreetly in one's own home, without shocking a potentially gossipy church helper?
I have to confess I wasn't particularly sympathetic! I would've been quite happy to have had a secretary and a loving partner to have had that kind of problem over. Sensitivity and awareness of the diversity of human situations is very difficult to develop when we only ever see things from our own perspective.
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
I wasn't trying to reconcile anyone to anything - just pointing out that married people can be lonely too. And I get tired of people making rude remarks about 'smug' marrieds. Smug is the last thing you can afford to be nowadays, if you wish to remain married.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
The reality is, friendships take work. And apart from after-church chit chat, services are not where the work has the best chance of happening.
If your church is really centred around families, to the extent that those without children and/or partners feel excluded, then that's a problem. If they aren't willing to at least have a go at tackling it, then perhaps they aren't the right place for you.
I was fortunate enough to have a great midweek group at a former church I went to. Most but not all were single - it wasn't specifically 'singles ministry' (shudder) but that's just how it happened. Those guys were the ones I could phone at 3am when I had troubles. That's the sort of friendship churches should try to cultivate.
Unfortnately the church is full of broken, flawed people like me, who often aren't very good at this stuff. It's where people belong who aren't very good at belonging.
I hope you find a way to make some friends soon.
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I get tired of people making rude remarks about 'smug' marrieds. Smug is the last thing you can afford to be nowadays, if you wish to remain married.
I admit it was my choice of phrase, borrowed from 'Bridget Jones' (I think), but I was referring to the two posts made by Adeodatus, which implied that churches that were dominated by young families and mums in big cars were off-putting to someone like him.
Speaking for myself, I've never had any problems with young families at church, but then again, they've almost always been a small minority at the churches I've attended. Familiarity and probably personality too have made it easier for me to relate to the far more numerous older retired churchgoers, even though in terms of age I have more in common with thirty and forty-something parents.
I can certainly see how various demographic aspects might make church a lonely place for some people. It's difficult to find a church that's well-balanced in all the different demographic categories.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I can certainly see how various demographic aspects might make church a lonely place for some people. It's difficult to find a church that's well-balanced in all the different demographic categories.
Some churches actively pursue a target demographic. In my town one church bills itself as a "youth church" aiming for the teenage young 20s slice. Another has a logo of an adult with two young kids, and all activities are aimed at "family" meaning couples with young children or grandchildren. Several of the old churches have a reputation of fully accepting only of those who were born here (not unusual in small town social clubs of any kind).
And in some churches of mixed memberships, the old guard long for the 50s when families predominated not because they care about families per se but they want to get the kids cemented into a church habit young on the theory that's how you ensure the church's survival into the future. (Is that a Biblical evangelism technique - get the kids"? If I ask I'm told "suffer the little children to come...")
All of which can result in some demographics being ignored (such a single parents, disabled, unmarried adults over 30 and under 65) - ignored in the sense of welcome to attend but the church is not going to schedule a room or use of materials or space in the bulletin for your activity addressing your demographic's needs because all resources are needed for the work of trying to attract the target demographic.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
@OP
No one really knows. WE'd need to see something about the characteristics of the religious. I would like to see the average ages of the church goers. Older people go to church more, and older people are lonelier than younger, maybe that's it?
But maybe churches are havens for outcasts and sinners? I sometimes want to go to church partly for the social chit chat and pleasant non-deadly conversation. Like home, they have to take you in there.
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
The OP juxtaposes church - where one might expect to find 'togetherness' - with the experience of loneliness. I would tend to suspect that this trend holds for most marriages too, in fairly regular cycles.
I'm married with kids, and I find it difficult to talk to single people at church. My family consumes all my time, I can't remember how I felt when single or even before kids, and I feel, rightly or wrongly, that I'd have little to say which might interest a (typically younger) single person. I can't commit to social engagements without a good bit of thought and a fair bit of marital negotiation, so any kind of 'hey, why don't we meet in the pub / go to a gig' approach is likely to be met by prevarication from me, while I try to work out where my marriage-points balance is sitting.
This isn't because I don't like you. My life is just full of solid (stolid) commitments, and our chances of even a meaningful conversation after the service which is not torpedoed by a dad-dad-dad attack are pretty slim. Chances are you won't be aware how little time people like me have to offer anyone, themselves included.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Do people really go to church for togetherness? I go because people leave me alone! I find the eucharist a brilliant space, where I can allow myself to tune in, or tune out, if I want, and just drift, and so on. Ah well, anti-social as ever!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Belle Ringer
I'm in favour of having a diversity of Christian churches, so it's hard for me to be totally against targeting. But I wish churches would be more open about whom they're really focusing on. Sometimes they speak with forked tongue and claim that 'all are welcome', when on closer inspection it seems that some are more welcome than others.
However, I think the main problem is that a sense of belonging in church has been compromised by secularisation. Ageing congregations are a sign of church decline, and consequently so is the fetishisation of young single people and/or of young families. These groups seem so important because of their current underpresentation. This situation can lead to each of these three groups to feel lonely.
The church also suffers from individualism in the wider culture, in which people expect their innermost needs and preferences to be satisfied. The demand for fulfillment is greater than before, but the ability for the church to satisfy the demand is less.
[ 22. October 2013, 18:02: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
As Tubbs and quetzacotl point out, it depends very much on the church and the person. On these boards, I sometimes come across comments from shipmates who declare that their church cares for people by cooking them meals when they are ill, doing their ironing, looking after their kids, etc. etc. and I find myself thinking 'Woah, too claustrophobic already!' I wouldn't choose to go to a church where people take over your life (as it would seem to me) as if you were totally helpless, nor would I wish to do that to fellow churchgoers. Perhaps that's why some people who like to help very much think we are 'God's frozen chosen' because our dignity and self-respect is tied up with how much independence we prefer to keep.
If you like everyone to rush around and make a fuss of you, then there are churches which cater for this need. But there are also others where people are still at the smiling and nodding stage after several years of attendance. Know yourself and your needs, and don't attend the wrong one by mistake!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I wasn't trying to reconcile anyone to anything
Who said you were?
quote:
- just pointing out that married people can be lonely too.
Which is clearly something I agreed with you about.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
@Anselmina: Oh, OK. I picked up on the comment about how you wished you had the same problems as the other guy, and interpreted it as a criticism of married people complaining... my bad.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I just thought of another kind - I've worked with people who used to get lonely in social situations, and then, if they spent some time alone, the loneliness disappeared. So I think there is a 'loneliness for oneself' which is difficult to describe, but I am sure, exists. It's like being cut off from oneself, and then needing to reconnect with whatever feelings, thoughts, images, are being disconnected. Going into a social situation will tend to make it worse. Of course, most introverts will recognize this one.
Indeed, that makes perfect sense. If I'm at home on my own, I'm lonely in the trivial sense that I'm on my own. If I'm in a church, or club, or anything else, but I'm clearly not really a part of it, then that's a more troubling kind of loneliness.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I suppose I go a stage further, and often I don't want to be a part of it. I remember at about age 19, I lived in a student house, and I had this powerful urge to move out on my own. Bliss! I was no longer lonely.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
He has made us for Himself and our souls are restless until they rest in Him. Lots of the saints were lonely.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
He has made us for Himself and our souls are restless until they rest in Him. Lots of the saints were lonely.
Yes. So loneliness has different levels - for someone else, for oneself, and for God. I suppose people muddle them up also.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Do people really go to church for togetherness? I go because people leave me alone! I find the eucharist a brilliant space, where I can allow myself to tune in, or tune out, if I want, and just drift, and so on. Ah well, anti-social as ever!
Well said sir . I never feel alone in a church pew, even when I attend without the company of my good partner .
As for wanting to be left alone . There's nothing pisses me more in church than that tap on the shoulder the moment the service has ended , followed by -- 'you know that memorial you fixed at so and so place.....' (or some other shop related matter).
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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