Ship of Fools: Religions no longer common

Thread: Religions no longer common Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

I saw a "Washington Post" headline: "Christianity is not going away", a story by Mark Tooley. This led me to think about religions that used to be in widespread practice but are now rare. I suppose there are still a few people worshiping the Greek gods or the Norse gods, and I believe the Druids have made a comeback, but there must be plenty of gods no longer being worshiped.

How does a religion die out? Does some leader announce that it is over? Do adherents convert en mass (or per force) to some other faith? Are there always a few lingering believers? Does a religion evolve through a series of steps into a different religion?

Likewise, referring now to Christianity, have there been offshoots (heretical or not) which have died out? Have there been orders of nuns or monks which have failed to thrive?

Posted by Merchant Trader (# 9007) on :

I suspect many evolve but the two that fascinate me are Zoroastrianism and the Cult of Mithras.

The former replaced by Islam and the latter by Christianity. But we still see many of the ideas in various versions of Christianity. In both cases, my understanding that both were replaced with the support of the new civil/religious authority which supported the new religion.

The Cathars beliefs contained much Zoroastrian thought which passed through Gnostic channels and we saw what the civil and religious authorities did to the Cathars in the Albigensian Crusade. Again suppressed by authority.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

For whatever reason, monotheistic religions tend to have greater longevity than polytheistic ones. To the best of my knowledge, only one major monotheistic religion (Manichæism) has ever died out completely.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Merchant Trader:
I suspect many evolve but the two that fascinate me are Zoroastrianism and the Cult of Mithras.

The former replaced by Islam and the latter by Christianity.

Surely "displaced" is a better descriptor than "replaced" in the case of Zoroastrianism, since there are still Zoroastrian adherents today.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Also Zoroastrianism was a major cultural influence on 2nd Temple Judaism and hence indirectly on Christianity.

The Mithraists were never that big a deal really. Just one of many mystery cults that died out with Western European and Middle Eastern paganism.

Catharism seems to have more to do with Manicheism than with Zoroastrianism, which was always rather more monotheist and less Gnostic than it sometimes gets painted. But then Manicheism sort of grew as a Zoroastrian heresy. As did Mithraism and a huge host of minor monotheist and Gnostic cults in Syria, half a dozen of which still exist, sometimes with some Islamic protective colouration - the Syrian Alawites are in some ways more like some of the pre-Islamic sects of the region than they are like the Shia Muslims they officially identify with. And as for the Druze....

IIRC the Mandaeans and Yezidis don't claim to be Muslims. But I might be wrong on that.

But it's all sort of complex fun. Syria (in the widest sense, including Palestine/Israel, Lebanon, the fertile bits of Jordan, most of Northern Iraq, and a strip of Southern Turkey) has, depending on how you count, somewhere between two and six entire monotheistic religions found natively nowhere else on earth. Which seeing as Judaism and Christianity are from there as well, and Zoroastrianism and Islam from next door in Persia and Arabia, must make it the most religion-generating place on the planet (outside Northern India)

But maybe its all over now that our governments are paying the Wahabites to exterminate all the others as a cheap way of assassinating President Assad. I suppose that goes along with the way we all but wiped out Iraqi Christianity in the name of taking revenge on Saddam for a crime he never committed. (One of the few, but our governments could at least have had the decency to accuse him of something he had in fact done. It's not as if it was hard to find anything )

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Under 1,000 Samaritans left - if you count Samaritanism as a religion separate to Judaism. As far as I can see, the major difference is that Samaritans believed that YHWH could be worshipped on Mt Gerizim as well as at Jerusalem - or perhaps, instead of there. With numbers dropping as low as that, problems of inter-marriage must emerge, and numbers dwindle even more.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

I've come across a couple of people who claim to worship Odin & his pantheon. I say "claim" because, in both cases, these were late adolescents, and they were essentially recreating a cult out of their readings of Norse mythology and their own imaginations, rather than continuing any handed-down tradition.

Interesting that the mid-east should be such a fertile crescent for monotheism. I suppose the only real competition would be California, which seems to give rise to odd cults every other week.

Do you suppose it's spending too much time in the sun?

Several years ago, I was invited to join a community of Wiccans operating out of the local U-U church. I went once or twice out of curiosity, but it seemed more like a meeting of the Society for Creative Anachronism than anything else.

It makes me suspect that what attracts people to religion is the opportunity to wear odd clothes (or none) and chant things in dead (or nonexistent) languages.

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:

Interesting that the mid-east should be such a fertile crescent for monotheism. I suppose the only real competition would be California, which seems to give rise to odd cults every other week.

Do you suppose it's spending too much time in the sun?

California has a diverse population and attracts people from all around the world. It stands to reason that a highly diverse population will contain a highly diverse set of beliefs.

The reason we seem to have so many crazies is not because we grow them among the lemon and avocado groves but because so many take the plane or bus from back East (and North, and South, and West). If California weren't such an awesome place to live there would be a lot fairer distribution of whackiness in this country.

It so happens the Fertile Crescent is a crossroads of civilization so it has also had a diverse population with a diverse set of beliefs. Like California, it's also proved to be an attractive place for settlers and conquerors, thus adding to the mixture and being a cradle of civilization people have been there for so long a time every little religious movement was bound to leave it's mark in some way so the religious diversity is more apparent and obvious than it is in other parts of the world with less developed material cultures.

[ 23. October 2013, 02:02: Message edited by: Pancho ]

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Interesting that the mid-east should be such a fertile crescent for monotheism. I suppose the only real competition would be California, which seems to give rise to odd cults every other week.

Do you suppose it's spending too much time in the sun?

Several years ago, I was invited to join a community of Wiccans operating out of the local U-U church. I went once or twice out of curiosity, but it seemed more like a meeting of the Society for Creative Anachronism than anything else.

It makes me suspect that what attracts people to religion is the opportunity to wear odd clothes (or none) and chant things in dead (or nonexistent) languages.

Well the Society for Creative Anachronism was founded in Berkeley.

California has a larger collection of craziness and future trends in part because of the American habit of moving west when you felt restricted by the conforming society. Eventually they ran out of West and the craziness had to pile up on the coast.

An earlier version of this was the 19th century Burned-over district of upstate New York and Pennsylvania at a time when Buffalo New York was considered the frontier.

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

quote:
I've come across a couple of people who claim to worship Odin & his pantheon.

I had a mate like that...he was a bright guy with a pure math PhD, and I got the impression his stance was more an invitation to the (many) liberal humanists he knew, along with the (few) Christians, to prove to him why his position made any less sense than theirs.

He did lend me an academic book on the Norse gods which was very interesting, but this is a decade ago and I have forgotten the title/author. One point I do remember is that the idea of Norse gods we have is apparently very late-phase, when other cultures got close enough to them to talk to them and write stuff down - just before conversion to Christianity, I guess. The book suggested that much earlier, aural stuff was utterly lost (as the OP). In some such cases, the name of a god survives but that is about all - 'Tiwaz' being responsible for Tuesday! It brought home to me the idea of the pre-historic.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

I know a fair few neo-pagans and they're pretty open about their religion being less than 50 years old. Their contention is that the truth or otherwise of their beliefs is not dependent on their age. They use the ancient pantheons as, well, labels I suppose to identity their perception of the divine. So, one close friend of mine primarily engages with Lugh, the Celtic god of the sun. It's worth noting that this isn't really a teenage fad - most of my neo-pagan friends are in their 30s and have been on this path since university. I've not encountered any neo-pagans who believe the stereotypical wiccan reviving-ancient-pre-Christian-religion thing.

Posted by trouty (# 13497) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:

quote:
I've come across a couple of people who claim to worship Odin & his pantheon.
I had a mate like that...he was a bright guy with a pure math PhD, and I got the impression his stance was more an invitation to the (many) liberal humanists he knew, along with the (few) Christians, to prove to him why his position made any less sense than theirs.

He did lend me an academic book on the Norse gods which was very interesting, but this is a decade ago and I have forgotten the title/author. One point I do remember is that the idea of Norse gods we have is apparently very late-phase, when other cultures got close enough to them to talk to them and write stuff down - just before conversion to Christianity, I guess. The book suggested that much earlier, aural stuff was utterly lost (as the OP). In some such cases, the name of a god survives but that is about all - 'Tiwaz' being responsible for Tuesday! It brought home to me the idea of the pre-historic.

Surely Tuesday is named after Tyr, who we know quite a bit about.. I've never come across Tiwaz before.

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

There are several spellings of the name Tyr; Tiwaz is one.

Tyr was the Norse god of war, as Mars was the Roman god of war. In French, Tuesday is "Mardi", named after Mars. I guess many people associate Tuesday with war, perhaps a reaction to Mondays.

Posted by Anyuta (# 14692) on :

I thought Tuesday was, well, based on it being the second day of the week (TWO day)

in Russian the days of the week are mostly based on their standing in the week, monday is "start of week day", tuesday is "secondday", wednesday is "middle" thursday is fourthday, friday fifth day... Saturday is "sabath day" (based on Jewish sabath, which we don't consider Sunday to have replaced directly) and sunday is "resurrection day".

not so long ago, even during Christian times in Russia the months of the year (and perhaps days of the week, I dont' know) had other names, based on pre-christian beliefs. but I don't think they were based on pagan gods, rather on weather patterns and nature, such as "windy month" and "flower month" and similar. I'll have to look it up to see them all. Russian pagan belief lasted a long time allongside christianity, and the "dvueveriye" (dualfaith) was quite common, and often not seen as directly in conflict (God is worshiped, but God created all that is visible and invisible, and such things as spirits of the forest etc. are just the "invisible"). common fairly late into christan times in the countryside, not so much in the city of course.

I understand that since the resurgence of religion in Russia after the fall of communism, there has been a moderately strong movement to return to pre-Christian pagan beliefs. some survived with the dvueveriye, but many were stamped out completely first by christanity, and later by communist atheism. so now they are being re-created from scratch and immagination by neo-pagans. I"m fine, personally, with those who acknowledge that they are doing their best to re-create something that they have little evidence of. it bothers me no end when something re-created is passed off as original, though. Some things have no scholarly evidence, yet are presented as "true". It's not the belief itself that bothers me, it's the mis-representation. worship Perun if you must, but don't create a pantheon that you have no evidence for... or little evidence that is very controversial--and then claim that it's the true surviving Slavic faith. I mean, if you do that, at least say that it was mystically revealed to you or something. </rant>

I am fascinated by the way faiths blend one into another and survive that way. I don't see it as necessarily a bad thing, since Truth can exist in many forms that are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
I thought Tuesday was, well, based on it being the second day of the week (TWO day)

I thought that when I was a kid, but I couldn't work out the rest. We usually had fish on Friday so I associated it with 'frying'.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
I thought Tuesday was, well, based on it being the second day of the week (TWO day)

Except that traditionally it's the third day of the week, at least in the systems based on the Hebrew or Roman calendars.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:

quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
I thought Tuesday was, well, based on it being the second day of the week (TWO day)
I thought that when I was a kid, but I couldn't work out the rest. We usually had fish on Friday so I associated it with 'frying'.

Friday's named after the goddess Freya, Thursday after the god Thor and Wednesday after the god Woden. That's what I was told, anyway. These are all Nordic deities.

I had a friend at university who claimed she knew some Swedes who were Thor worshippers. I don't know if Thor worship is the Swedish equivalent of Wicca-type religion.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:

quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
I thought Tuesday was, well, based on it being the second day of the week (TWO day)
I thought that when I was a kid, but I couldn't work out the rest. We usually had fish on Friday so I associated it with 'frying'.
Friday's named after the goddess Freya, Thursday after the god Thor and Wednesday after the god Woden. That's what I was told, anyway. These are all Nordic deities.

I had a friend at university who claimed she knew some Swedes who were Thor worshippers. I don't know if Thor worship is the Swedish equivalent of Wicca-type religion.

Friday is named after Frigga, Odin's spouse.

As for worship of Thor, worship of the Norse gods is a different branch of Paganism to Wicca (which is a modern Pagan religion started in the 1940s and vaguely based on Druidism - which is a different kind of Paganism to Norse Paganism), but both come under the umbrella of Paganism. Neither are restricted by location - Norse Paganism is probably more popular in North America than in Sweden.

Paganism is very diverse and some mix it with other religions, and there are even atheistic Pagans. The
Pagan channel on Patheos is very informative.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

'...the Vikings worshipped some dreadful gods of their own called Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday.'

1066 and All That

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

The German name for Wednesday is Mittwoch, literally 'midweek' - how sensible.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
In some such cases, the name of a god survives but that is about all - 'Tiwaz' being responsible for Tuesday!

But Tiswas is on Saturdays.

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
In some such cases, the name of a god survives but that is about all - 'Tiwaz' being responsible for Tuesday!
But Tiswas is on Saturdays.

I was just thinking the same. [Smile]

In a sense, religions are always dying as previous dogmas and practices are replaced or revised. Like the body dropping dead cells and making new ones, it might go by the same name, but given enough time it's a completely new proposition. That isn't really what you're looking for, but it explains why religions don't often die completely - they evolve.

But I'm surprised no one's mentioned Muggletonians yet. They're famously extinct, at least as far as anyone can tell - it might be that there are a couple of breeding pairs lying low in the urban jungle, but as there hasn't been a reported sighting for several decades, they can probably be considered functionally extinct.

Like other long-gone ancient beliefs, though, even Muggletonians could be argued to live on in some form, through people who hold any of their distinctive beliefs, even if they've never heard of Lodowicke Muggleton. It's often useful to think of beliefs in terms broad categories based on personal identification, but at a certain point it begins to break down at the fringes.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Tyr and Tiwaz are one and the same.

In fact the version of the name I learnt was 'Tiw', which is the form that most directly lead to 'Tuesday'.

It's not really any different to the fact that Wednesday is Woden's Day, not Odin's Day. I always found that one pretty easy because I grew up in Woden Valley.

[ 24. October 2013, 11:44: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Oh, as for Frigg and Freya, apparently it depends which country/language you're in as to which one is right. Frigg for English and German, but Freya for Danish, Swedish and Norwegian.

Or so Wikipedia suggests. It also suggests the two goddesses might have a common origin anyway.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh, as for Frigg and Freya, apparently it depends which country/language you're in as to which one is right. Frigg for English and German, but Freya for Danish, Swedish and Norwegian.

Or so Wikipedia suggests. It also suggests the two goddesses might have a common origin anyway.

If you go by astronomical connections, Freya might be more likely, because her habits suggest Venus* where Frigga's do not - she is associated with Orion, being her spinning wheel. Having typed that, based on some illustration I saw as a child, my adult brain is going THAT CANNOT BE RIGHT! The thing hadn't been invented in her heyday, and Orion doesn't look anything like a distaff and spindle. The idea was that she was spinning the Milky Way.

*The deities of the planets which have morning and evening apparitions tend to be two-faced. Both Freya and Odin were originally regarded with doubt because of their association with seidr or dark side magic. (Can't remember actual source on this, as I've read a lot over the years.)

I would rather meet neo-Thor worshippers than neo-Odinists. The latter have posted edited versions of The words of the High One in which Odin describes himself. The full version includes him calling himself a liar and as stirring up strife in Things (or parliaments, or congresses) among other attributes not generally considered worship-worthy in deities. I guess I have to assume he is still active, whereas I usually put him in the box labelled "Doesn't exist, never existed."

I am reminded of a story about King Alfred and a treaty with a Viking host. They wanted to swear by Odin, but Alfred, knowing that oaths in Odin's name were not regarded as binding, insisted that they swear on Thor's hammer. Thor was regarded as policing oaths rather strictly, and, consequently, when the host turned up off Dorset intent on the usual pillaging and ravaging, the fleet was destroyed by a violent storm. It's reported in the A/S Chronicle, so it must be true!

[ 24. October 2013, 12:11: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by lowlands_boy (# 12497) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:

quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
I thought Tuesday was, well, based on it being the second day of the week (TWO day)
I thought that when I was a kid, but I couldn't work out the rest. We usually had fish on Friday so I associated it with 'frying'.
Friday's named after the goddess Freya, Thursday after the god Thor and Wednesday after the god Woden. That's what I was told, anyway. These are all Nordic deities.

I had a friend at university who claimed she knew some Swedes who were Thor worshippers. I don't know if Thor worship is the Swedish equivalent of Wicca-type religion.

I had a friend at uni who worshiped a Swedish girl. Mind you, it was understandable.

I'll get me coat....

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
In some such cases, the name of a god survives but that is about all - 'Tiwaz' being responsible for Tuesday!
But Tiswas is on Saturdays.

Ha! And now you've mystified da yoof..

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

It's all in Neil Gaiman's novel American Gods, come to think of it. What happens to deities who start running out of believers...

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh, as for Frigg and Freya, apparently it depends which country/language you're in as to which one is right. Frigg for English and German, but Freya for Danish, Swedish and Norwegian.

Whatever the origins, Frigga and Freya were both worshipped as different goddesses by the Scandinavians.

Posted by Kyzyl (# 374) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's all in Neil Gaiman's novel American Gods, come to think of it. What happens to deities who start running out of believers...

Pratchett also hits that theme in Small Gods .

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
For whatever reason, monotheistic religions tend to have greater longevity than polytheistic ones. To the best of my knowledge, only one major monotheistic religion (Manichæism) has ever died out completely.

Hinduism is #3 in terms of worshipers worldwide, per Wikipedia. Shintoism also outnumbers Judaism worldwide. Both of which predate Islam certainly.
More likely, the reason that monotheism seems to have outlived polytheism is more based on the longevity of the culture the religion is rooted in. A culture that persists will support the persistence of the prevalent religion as well.

[ 24. October 2013, 13:23: Message edited by: Siegfried ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kyzyl:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's all in Neil Gaiman's novel American Gods, come to think of it. What happens to deities who start running out of believers...
Pratchett also hits that theme in Small Gods .

True. But if you're trying to play 'spot the real-world deity (who is now slumming it on another continent)', Gaiman provides the more interesting and textured challenge.

As well as some genuinely creepy moments.

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
More likely, the reason that monotheism seems to have outlived polytheism is more based on the longevity of the culture the religion is rooted in. A culture that persists will support the persistence of the prevalent religion as well.

There is also the fact that the monotheistic religions are relatively new; Ancient Egyptian culture and religion lasted for over 3,000 years before dying out. Obviously the religion evolved over that time, but there was some continuity, including names of deities.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Hinduism is #3 in terms of worshipers worldwide, per Wikipedia. Shintoism also outnumbers Judaism worldwide. Both of which predate Islam certainly.
More likely, the reason that monotheism seems to have outlived polytheism is more based on the longevity of the culture the religion is rooted in. A culture that persists will support the persistence of the prevalent religion as well.

Is Hinduism actually polytheistic? My (limited) contact with Hindus suggests that the "gods" are different aspects of a single deity.

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :

My understanding is that it's closer to polytheistic than monotheistic, but as Wikipedia again says, there's a spectrum. From explanations given to me, even within the strain of hinduism that only recognizes a single Supreme Being, his/her avatars or devas are also worthy of worship, which sets it apart from Islam, Judaism and Christianity, where there is only one God worthy of worship.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
My understanding is that it's closer to polytheistic than monotheistic, but as Wikipedia again says, there's a spectrum. From explanations given to me, even within the strain of hinduism that only recognizes a single Supreme Being, his/her avatars or devas are also worthy of worship, which sets it apart from Islam, Judaism and Christianity, where there is only one God worthy of worship.

*Pedant's Corner* Only one God being worthy of worship is henotheism, monotheism is only one God existing. Many modern Pagans are henotheists for example (worshipping their preferred deity or deities but acknowledging the existence of others).

Sikhism also only has one God and has origins in both Islam and Hinduism.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
My understanding is that it's closer to polytheistic than monotheistic, but as Wikipedia again says, there's a spectrum.

AIUI Greek and Roman paganism was also a spectrum. Philosophers like Plato and Aristotle and Zeno all seem quite clear that there was one Supreme Being. And the most famous stories about the Greek gods mostly come from Ovid's Metamorphoses, which ends with the explanation that it's all really an allegory for Neo-Pythagoreanism, which was broadly monotheistic.

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