Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Calvinism and God's character
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Stoker
Shipmate
# 11939
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Posted
Mrs Stoker and I have always been involved in churches with Calvanistic foundations. Our current church is very much that way and the pastor is a fierce calvanist. (see other posts for how we nearly left over the summer).
However, as life rolls on and we and people we know experience "real life" with all its ups and downs, it seems to me that Calvanism in some form doesn't work - did God ordain us to have a serious car crash that was unavoidable on our part?, has God chosen my neighbour to go to hell even though he was never going to have chance to obey the command to repent? How does a baby murdered by its mother (recently in the UK news) ever bring glory to God?
Looking at it apart from technical, cold doctrine it appears to misrepresent the character, love and justice of the God revealed in the Bible.
Do shipmates have a view on this or how they have manged this moment of 'revelation'? {title spello] [ 06. November 2013, 07:30: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Jason Zarri
Apprentice
# 15248
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Posted
Though I'm currently agnostic (though I'd like to think I'm open-minded), I like the Catholic idea that one of the ways in which God is glorified is through the well-being of His creatures. On this idea there can be no contrast between what is truly good for God's creatures and what glorifies God, because you can't have the first without the second. The idea that God could arbitrarily, by sheer fiat, decide to harm or damn a creature in order demonstrate His Justice would then make no sense: For why would God act contrary to His greater glorification? So Calvinism has little appeal for me, either morally or intellectually.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
I don't see how Calvinism - in the sense of God predestining who he will / won't save, and of ordaining the various struggles and suffering that we all face to some degree - can be reconciled with the character of God as revealed in the Bible (primarily through Jesus).
'God is love' is, ISTM, the ultimate revelation of God's nature, and I've not yet come across a satisfactory reconciliation of this with the concept of God predestining some people to an eternity without him.
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Moo
 Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
My take is that this is much too complicated for me to get my mind around. Since I can't have an informed opinion on the matter, I have a default position.
God loves me and everyone else more than any of us can imagine. George Macdonald said that you should never accept any idea which involves God appearing to do evil things. The ultimate problem is the limits of our understanding.
I think we need to accept those limits and not assume that God does evil things because it appears that way to us.
Moo
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote: Mrs Stoker and I have always been involved in churches with Calvanistic foundations. Our current church is very much that way and the pastor is a fierce calvanist. (see other posts for how we nearly left over the summer).
However, as life rolls on and we and people we know experience "real life" with all its ups and downs, it seems to me that Calvanism in some form doesn't work - did God ordain us to have a serious car crash that was unavoidable on our part?, has God chosen my neighbour to go to hell even though he was never going to have chance to obey the command to repent? How does a baby murdered by its mother (recently in the UK news) ever bring glory to God?
Looking at it apart from technical, cold doctrine it appears to misrepresent the character, love and justice of the God revealed in the Bible.
Do shipmates have a view on this or how they have manged this moment of 'revelation'?
I have no idea why babies dying, car crashes, and people dying without hearing the Gospel is being laid at the feet of Calvin here. Every theology has to explain that sort of thing, and I can't see how Calvin is any worse at it than others.
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Stoker:
Looking at it apart from technical, cold doctrine it appears to misrepresent the character, love and justice of the God revealed in the Bible.
Do shipmates have a view on this or how they have manged this moment of 'revelation'? {title spello]
Well, piling on calvinism is generally very popular - and this could turn into a debate about it's merits very easily.
Suffice to say that some people find a (warm rather than cold) comfort in Calvinism. Predestination is supposed to be the answer to the problem of not knowing whether or not you are saved, not an as an answer to the problem of theodicy.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Zach82: I have no idea why babies dying, car crashes, and people dying without hearing the Gospel is being laid at the feet of Calvin here. Every theology has to explain that sort of thing, and I can't see how Calvin is any worse at it than others.
Calvinists, ISTM, have to explain why God wills babies dying, car crashes, and people dying without hearing the Gospel. Non-Calvinists have to explain something else, I agree; usually some version of how / why did God apparently let this (from our perspective) horror happen, given that he's supposed to be all-powerful and totally good. Maybe a separate thread for the latter point? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by South Coast Kevin: quote: Originally posted by Zach82: I have no idea why babies dying, car crashes, and people dying without hearing the Gospel is being laid at the feet of Calvin here. Every theology has to explain that sort of thing, and I can't see how Calvin is any worse at it than others.
Calvinists, ISTM, have to explain why God wills babies dying, car crashes, and people dying without hearing the Gospel. Non-Calvinists have to explain something else, I agree; usually some version of how / why did God apparently let this (from our perspective) horror happen, given that he's supposed to be all-powerful and totally good. Maybe a separate thread for the latter point?
How, exactly, do Calvinists and non-Calvinists have different problems to answer? Do babies not die arbitrary deaths all the time in the non-Calvinist world?
I don't see why a separate thread is necessary, considering this is exactly what the OP is asking.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Zach82: Do babies not die arbitrary deaths all the time in the non-Calvinist world?
Of course they do. But non-Calvinists don't have to explain how this happening is God's will, as certainly some Calvinists believe. The task of the non-Calvinists is different, but still difficult I grant you!
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by South Coast Kevin: quote: Originally posted by Zach82: Do babies not die arbitrary deaths all the time in the non-Calvinist world?
Of course they do. But non-Calvinists don't have to explain how this happening is God's will, as certainly some Calvinists believe. The task of the non-Calvinists is different, but still difficult I grant you!
So long as non-Calvinists believe that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly benevolent, they actually do have to explain why it's God's will.
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anteater
 Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
quote: ... the pastor is a fierce calvanist. (see other posts for how we nearly left over the summer).
Maybe this is the issue. I'd need to know more about what you consider fierce, but as with all christian variations, there are extremists, even arseholes. Maybe you've got one, but you shouldn't lay the blame for this on Calvin. quote: However, as life rolls on and we and people we know experience "real life" with all its ups and downs,
I would say that real life has more than just ups and downs, if we look at it globally. quote: it seems to me that Calvanism in some form doesn't work - did God ordain us to have a serious car crash that was unavoidable on our part?,
Why is that so unbelievable? Could not God fore-ordain that his followers suffer? Is it preferable to you to believe that he has no involvement in this world, and couldn't help it or bring good out of it? quote: has God chosen my neighbour to go to hell even though he was never going to have chance to obey the command to repent?
But this is a problem with all conservative evangelical views. It is simply a fact that Arminians used to believe that you needed to hear the Gospel to be saved, and some -though not many - still do. Most Calvinists do believe it. Both sides have to deal with the millions who have never heard the Gospel. What do you believe about this? Most modern evos think it makes no difference because God is fair and will judge people according, basically, to their goddness of heart. Which is a reasonable point of view, but no more the religion of Wesley than of Calvin.
quote: How does a baby murdered by its mother (recently in the UK news) ever bring glory to God?
I don't know, but Christians of all stripes would be reluctant to believe that God is unable to bring good out of human tragedies. That is not exclusive to Calvinists at all. quote:
Looking at it apart from technical, cold doctrine it appears to misrepresent the character, love and justice of the God revealed in the Bible.
So the idea that God can bring good out of terrible tragedy is against what we find in the Bible? Or that people need to hear the Gospel if they are to be saved? See Romans 9-11 with it's inexorable logic that people need to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved (do you believe that?) which implies that they need to hear about it (reasonable enough) which implies that people have to be sent forth).
quote: Do shipmates have a view on this or how they have manged this moment of 'revelation'?
Well in my case it meant a departure from evangelicalism. What to - I'm not sure. I agree that some of their teachings do stretch scripture too far, especially limited atonement, which is why there are many "four-point" near calvinists around. They also have problems with assurance due to their doctrine of temporary faith.
The bogey of the bastard-cold-techno-calvinist is an old canard, and yes, they do exist. Maybe in large numbers at your church. But most of the ones I know are just normal evangelical christians, with a strong desire not to compromise the Power of God. [ 06. November 2013, 14:58: Message edited by: anteater ]
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Nick Tamen
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# 15164
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by chris stiles: Well, piling on calvinism is generally very popular - and this could turn into a debate about it's merits very easily.
Suffice to say that some people find a (warm rather than cold) comfort in Calvinism. Predestination is supposed to be the answer to the problem of not knowing whether or not you are saved, not an as an answer to the problem of theodicy.
Yes to both points!
-------------------- The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Zach82: So long as non-Calvinists believe that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly benevolent, they actually do have to explain why it's God's will.
I disagree. I think you've begged the question as to what omnipotent and / or omniscient mean. This is why I suggested a new thread for the non-Calvinist perspective, because Stoker wanted to talk about the apparent contradiction at the heart of Calvinism. We could easily get into a discussion of Arminianism and open theism, but that's not what Stoker's OP was about as such.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by South Coast Kevin: quote: Originally posted by Zach82: So long as non-Calvinists believe that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly benevolent, they actually do have to explain why it's God's will.
I disagree. I think you've begged the question as to what omnipotent and / or omniscient mean.
I have an idea what it means, think it's a pretty common understanding of the concept, and am not quite able to discern how it involves begging the question. But whatever it means, an omnipotent God could certainly stop babies from dying pointless deaths, and the fact that he doesn't isn't any more a Calvinist problem than an Arminian one.
It doesn't seem to me that your doctrine of God is either Calvinist or Arminian.
quote: This is why I suggested a new thread for the non-Calvinist perspective, because Stoker wanted to talk about the apparent contradiction at the heart of Calvinism. We could easily get into a discussion of Arminianism and open theism, but that's not what Stoker's OP was about as such.
This line of discussion is entirely germane.
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Jengie jon
 Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Right there are non-determinist Calvinists. The argument goes that while salvation is ultimately the responsibility of God and therefore God has the last say there, God does not necessarily fret about the smaller stuff!
On the other-hand Calvin's own take is very different. As with many Medieval theologians Calvin maintains God is outside time. Therefore by Predestination he is talking about God's conscious state not actual causal chains as we think of them within creation. There is no time not happening within God's awareness. Pre and Post really do not have the same meaning to God as they do to us.
Jengie
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Although talking about causal chains is quite puzzling, since here 'cause' has a naturalistic sense, doesn't it? In this sense, God is not a cause of anything. I think the medieval theologians argued for 'cause' as a logical relation, which is different from 'physical cause' I suppose. But I find the First Cause arguments strange for the same reason, as they seem to move from one to t'other, or as they say in the back streets of Manchester, why sir, thou dost equivocate! [ 06. November 2013, 15:51: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Why do babies die if we have an omnipotent God?
I remember one funeral I assisted in where the preacher dealt with that question. He pointed out that God also grieves when innocents die. He went on to say that it is not God's will that people die. That comes about because we are what we are, imperfect and sinners. God gave humans free will and we chose death. The consequences continues through the ages. However, this is where grace comes in. God, acting in grace sent His only Son into the world that we can have life.
We can get into a discussion of how the world is still groaning as in child birth, but eventually perfection will be obtained.
I personally reject dual predestination. It blames God for everything. What about human responsibility? I am more of a universalist myself when it comes to God wanting all humans to be saved.
Just saw a meme this morning:
God doesn't give us what we can handle, God helps us handle what we are given.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gramps49: God doesn't give us what we can handle, God helps us handle what we are given.
My thoughts exactly. I find it interesting that some of my sharpest disagreements and biggest 'Huh?' moments with other Christians have been with strong Calvinists who believe everything that happens is directly willed by God. Such a belief just seems utterly at odds with the character of God, as revealed by Jesus.
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Jammy Dodger
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# 17872
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by South Coast Kevin: My thoughts exactly. I find it interesting that some of my sharpest disagreements and biggest 'Huh?' moments with other Christians have been with strong Calvinists who believe everything that happens is directly willed by God. Such a belief just seems utterly at odds with the character of God, as revealed by Jesus.
Agree. Why would Jesus have asked us to pray "your will be done" if there was no possibility it wouldn't be?
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Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
If a baby dies of the flu, which happens all the time, and is not the result of the free will of anyone involved, God was either unable or unwilling to prevent it. Do you know of other possibilities?
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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mousethief
 Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jammy Dodger: Agree. Why would Jesus have asked us to pray "your will be done" if there was no possibility it wouldn't be?
Exactly so. We have to allow for the possibility that things happen that are against God's will in some sense. Which Calvinists deny.
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Jengie jon
 Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Can I point out that this is a discussion of theo-determinism (that God's will controls the world) not predestinarianism (the doctrine that God finally says whose saved and who isn't).
As I have already pointed out that there are non-determinist Predestinarians; may I also point out there are the even weirder theo-determinist Arminians.
Jengie
-------------------- "To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Jammy Dodger
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# 17872
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Zach82: If a baby dies of the flu, which happens all the time, and is not the result of the free will of anyone involved, God was either unable or unwilling to prevent it. Do you know of other possibilities?
This is getting into the territory of the "Devil and all His Works" thread also ongoing at the mo. I guess I would go for God has created space for this universe to exist in such a way that we have genuine free will - for this to be the case the universe must itself be free (or uncontrolled directly by God) enough that our free will is meaningful and real. The consequence of this is that bad stuff happens and is not God's will or desire.
-------------------- Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jammy Dodger: quote: Originally posted by Zach82: If a baby dies of the flu, which happens all the time, and is not the result of the free will of anyone involved, God was either unable or unwilling to prevent it. Do you know of other possibilities?
This is getting into the territory of the "Devil and all His Works" thread also ongoing at the mo. I guess I would go for God has created space for this universe to exist in such a way that we have genuine free will - for this to be the case the universe must itself be free (or uncontrolled directly by God) enough that our free will is meaningful and real. The consequence of this is that bad stuff happens and is not God's will or desire.
Babies dying of the flu, or earthquakes or droughts and all that, have nothing to do with free will.
So, do answer the question without taking the free will cop out. Do famines happen because God can't stop them, or because God does not will to stop them? For my part, I would rather there be providence behind disaster than chaos, but once again, this question has nothing to do with the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate.
Not that I don't expect the usual suspects on the ship to kick Calvin's corpse at every opportunity. [ 06. November 2013, 18:38: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Sober Preacher's Kid
 Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Leprechaun
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# 5408
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: quote: Originally posted by Jammy Dodger: Agree. Why would Jesus have asked us to pray "your will be done" if there was no possibility it wouldn't be?
Exactly so. We have to allow for the possibility that things happen that are against God's will in some sense. Which Calvinists deny.
Actually, most Calvinists I know would distinguish God's moral will and God's sovereign will, and would allow for the possibility of things happening against the former. So they do allow, exactly, for things that happen against God's will "in some sense".
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Nick Tamen
 Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: quote: Originally posted by Jammy Dodger: Agree. Why would Jesus have asked us to pray "your will be done" if there was no possibility it wouldn't be?
Exactly so. We have to allow for the possibility that things happen that are against God's will in some sense. Which Calvinists deny.
Really? I've spent my life in in the Reformed tradition, and I've never heard anyone deny it. In my experience, Calvinists are, if anything, perhaps too prone to proclaim that people do things all the time that are not God's will, and that without God's grace, none of us can truly do God's will. You know, total depravity and all that.
-------------------- The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Jammy Dodger
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# 17872
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Zach82: So, do answer the question without taking the free will cop out. Do famines happen because God can't stop them, or because God does not will to stop them?
OK. Because God does not will to stop them. But God choosing not to intervene is not the same as him desiring something. God wants us to be part of the solutions to these issues and our prayers would appear to make a difference hence my earlier reference to the Lord's Prayer and "your will be done". But hey. I may be completely wrong. [ 06. November 2013, 19:06: Message edited by: Jammy Dodger ]
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Calvin was entirely in agreement with the Arminians that plagues and famines were not part of the ideal state of affairs.
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
As Shippies will now, I can kick out at Calvinists just as much as I can kick out at charismatics ... having been more inclined in both of those directions in the past than I am at present.
But I agree with Jengie and Zach82, I don't see the issue as predestination vs free will etc here - it's more an issue of theodicy and that raises issues that apply to Christians of all stripes and persuasions.
Read Thornton Wilder's excellent novel, 'The Bridge of San Luis Rey'.
I think the key word in the OP is 'fierce'. 'Fierce' anything can cause big problems - whether someone is fiercely Pentecostal, fiercely Orthodoxy, fiercely Liberal or fiercely whatever else ...
Besides, the premise as to whether Calvinism 'works' or not - ie. the final preservation or perseverance of the saints - is surely something that none of us can determine or be sure of until it's actually happened - however immutable it may be from God's perspective.
It isn't anything I get hot under the collar about these days. It's God's call, not mine.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
For me there is only one determinism. Love wins.
-------------------- Love wins
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mousethief
 Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Leprechaun: quote: Originally posted by mousethief: quote: Originally posted by Jammy Dodger: Agree. Why would Jesus have asked us to pray "your will be done" if there was no possibility it wouldn't be?
Exactly so. We have to allow for the possibility that things happen that are against God's will in some sense. Which Calvinists deny.
Actually, most Calvinists I know would distinguish God's moral will and God's sovereign will, and would allow for the possibility of things happening against the former. So they do allow, exactly, for things that happen against God's will "in some sense".
I think I've heard that distinction. It sounds like desperation though.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
Disclaimer: I know relatively nothing about Calvinism.
Seems to me if God pre-decides who will go to heaven or hell, it doesn't matter if your neighbor hears the gospel or not, that would matter only if God's pre-decision isn't really a decision but just a conditional inclination. Same with dead babies, they were heaven or hell bound whether or not they lived, so the living or dying is not of eternal significance.
Anyway, that's what double predestination sounds like to me. Certainly possible I'm totally misunderstand.
I did read that Calvin said heaven or hell should be irrelevant to us, we are to love God regardless of what we "get out of it." Not love God conditionally, only if God will admit us to heaven. I kinda like that concept.
I'm taking a (free on-line 5-week) course in Calvinism right now, https://www.coursera.org/course/calvin, from university of Geneva, in French with a lot of help for English speakers. Might know more about Calvinism in a few weeks after I catch up on the lessons.
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: I think I've heard that distinction. It sounds like desperation though.
And which of us, when explaining why God lets babies die of flu and famines ravage the world, is not desperate?
-------------------- mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by chris stiles:
Suffice to say that some people find a (warm rather than cold) comfort in Calvinism. Predestination is supposed to be the answer to the problem of not knowing whether or not you are saved, not an as an answer to the problem of theodicy.
It is not an answer at all.
A Calvinist or (Beza-ist, anyway)might be sure that the elect will be saved, but cannot be sure that they are one of the elect.
As an Arminian, I can at least be sure that God loves me (a member of a Presbyterian splinter faction once told me, "We can't go around telling people that God loves them, because it might not be true"), that Christ died for me, that God (genuinely) invites me to be saved, that He wants me to be saved, and that he offers me prevenient grace to accept salvation - and also, that God is not the author of sin.
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Leprechaun
 Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: quote: Originally posted by Leprechaun: quote: Originally posted by mousethief: quote: Originally posted by Jammy Dodger: Agree. Why would Jesus have asked us to pray "your will be done" if there was no possibility it wouldn't be?
Exactly so. We have to allow for the possibility that things happen that are against God's will in some sense. Which Calvinists deny.
Actually, most Calvinists I know would distinguish God's moral will and God's sovereign will, and would allow for the possibility of things happening against the former. So they do allow, exactly, for things that happen against God's will "in some sense".
I think I've heard that distinction. It sounds like desperation though.
What mdijon said. And anyway, it shows that your original assertion about Calvinism was false, even if you don't agree with the distinction.
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer: Disclaimer: I know relatively nothing about Calvinism.
And you will learn nothing about it from the sad old stereotypes being pulled out of the old sock drawer on this thread.
-------------------- Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Kaplan Corday: quote: Originally posted by chris stiles:
Suffice to say that some people find a (warm rather than cold) comfort in Calvinism. Predestination is supposed to be the answer to the problem of not knowing whether or not you are saved, not an as an answer to the problem of theodicy.
It is not an answer at all.
A Calvinist or (Beza-ist, anyway)might be sure that the elect will be saved, but cannot be sure that they are one of the elect.
This is just what I was thinking (apart from the reference to Beza, who I've just looked up as I hadn't heard of him before!). For a Calvinist, is it the height of arrogance to presume one is among the elect, or can there be some kind of assurance of right standing with God?
-------------------- My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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chive
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I was brought up in a hyper Calvinist very TULIP* church. The point when I realised it was ardent nonsense was when I read a book about theo-detrminism and the author said something like, 'I have just lifted up my arm, God must have preordained that. When I have an itch and scratch it, it is God that decided that I do so etc etc'. My initial thought was that surely God has better things to do with his time.
It took many years and a lot of thinking, reading and praying until eventually I ended up a Catholic because I discovered in Catholic doctrine and practice an understanding of the existence and extent of God's love and I realised that I no longer had to believe in a terrifying stalker of a God.
* I did find total depravity useful as a strapline on a profile on a bdsm website when I was involved in such things so Calvinism isn't all bad.
-------------------- 'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
No, Calvinism isn't all bad, any more than Arminianism is all fine and dandy or any other 'ism' for that matter.
I'd draw a distinction between Calvinism and Calvinists. It's with the latter than the problems start ...
And I agree with Kaplan Corday that what most of us think of as Calvinism is in fact Beza-ism.
That said, not all Beza-ites fall into the stereotype either.
I think one of the problems that Calvinists and Reformed have to contend with is being tarred with the same brush as a particular form of neo-Calvinistic fundamentalist mindset which, dare I see it, seems more common across the Pond than over here - although you can encounter it here too, of course.
I've heard Calvinists joke about when they fall downstairs they thank God that it's over afterwards, but I don't seriously think I've ever come across a Calvinist who believes it's foreordained if he picks his nose or scratches his backside at 3.45pm one Thursday afternoon ...
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
Around the ship, you're usually one of the people holding the brush, Gamaliel.
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, but I'm not tarring with it now ... unless you want the cap to fit, Zach82 ... to mix and mangle the metaphor.
I'm also trying to make amends for some rather over-the-top tarring I'd done in the past.
I genuinely believe that Calvinism isn't all bad and that we shouldn't tar all Calvinists with the same brush.
But sometimes they stick their heads over the picket fence when we're applying the tar ...
That can't be helped. Perhaps they should have ordained themselves to be somewhere else when the tar-brush is slopping about ...
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
"If civilized Chinese people get in the way of me tarring savage Chinamen, that's their own fault."
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
I'm seeing a lack of distinction in two separate "Calvinist" positions--predestination vs. double predestination. The latter seems to be the sticking point, and holds that not only are there the Elect, but there are also those that cannot be saved, no matter what.
-------------------- Siegfried Life is just a bowl of cherries!
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
@Zach82 ... heh heh heh ...
More seriously, yes, I have splashed the tar around rather indiscriminately in the past and I am genuinely trying to remedy that.
That said, I think that Calvinism taken to its logical conclusion does paint itself into a corner using its own brush ...
Roman Catholicism does the same over different issues.
Arguably, any 'closed' system does and Calvinism - or at least hyper-Calvinism - is nothing if not a 'closed' system.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
If you say so.
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
Threads about Catholicism on the internet tend to attract people who can't stop pitching tantrums about how Catholics worship Mary and try to buy their way into heaven with indulgences. Why shouldn't Calvinism attract a similar breed?
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
One advantage I can imagine of a firm double predestination - you don't need to try. You are safe or you are hosed, can't change it by what you think or do or believe, neither good works or bad will change God's mind. So, don't worry, don't fret, don't bother striving to be good or to improve as a person or to take the time to know God better, it doesn't matter anyway.
I don't see the point of bothering with the (time and money expense of) church if none of it makes any difference.
Or am I totally not understanding double predestination?
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LeRoc
 Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote: Belle Ringer: I don't see the point of bothering with the (time and money expense of) church if none of it makes any difference.
Or am I totally not understanding double predestination?
The way I understand it, double-predestinationists are continually worried about the question: am I among the predestined-saved people or not?
That's why they are looking towards some outward signs of being predestined, like being in a church-going, prosperous family. According to Weber, this accounts in a large degree for the 'Calvinist work ethos'.
Logically this doesn't make much sense, since they seem to be trying to influence their predestined future by conforming to its outward signs. But like in many cases, psychology trumps logic. [ 07. November 2013, 13:54: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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