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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: No pill, pull-out: where are we going with sex?
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
In my youth getting condoms was a troublesome thing. You got them from a pharmacy, they were behind the prescription counter, they were expensive, and like swimming in your clothes. So back then, often people did what apparently people are doing again (but believe, not nearly so soon and not nearly so often). This time because the Pill messes with hormones and people don't want that, plus risks re clots, cancer, heart...
Couple of links: Rebelling against the pill: 'Pulling-Out' of conventional birth control.
No Pill? No Prob. Meet the Pullout Generation
What do you think of "modern" birth control? Mechanical? Hormonal? Vasectomy? Tubal ligation? Are we going through a change away from the interference with nature? I've wondered if porno "money shots" have made people more comfortable and expectant of extra-vaginal ejaculation, and then there's the rise of oral sex which avoid the prego risk entirely if that's the main activity, an activity which was much rarer in the past. So where are we at, and where are we headed?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Couple of links: Rebelling against the pill: 'Pulling-Out' of conventional birth control.
No Pill? No Prob. Meet the Pullout Generation
Sounds like a reporter trying to manufacture a new trend out of a couple anecdotes and a study that doesn't say what most of the reporting on it says it says. "The investigators found that 31 percent of the women used withdrawal as a form of birth control at least once" according to an article in U.S. News & World Report linked to in the New York Magazine article cited. This becomes simplified to a much more absolute "1 in 3 Young U.S. Women Uses 'Withdrawal' for Birth Control" in the title. Given that none of the articles provides a direct link to the abstract of the cited study and that mainstream journalism has a terrible record for presenting the findings of scientific or academic papers, I'm highly skeptical that this is a widespread trend.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Journalist's definition of "trend": two anecdotes and a deadline.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
There's a name for people who use pull out as a method of contraception ---
Parents!
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
There's a name for people who use pull out as a method of contraception ---
Parents!
Huia
Got it in one!
I have friends who have four children because of this - you'd think experience would help them to learn ...
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
The withdrawal method isn't particularly bad. It's 96% reliable, if used correctly. The problem is, as with any method of contraception, people cannot be relied upon to use it correctly.
But that does mean something for comparators. One should use either "if used correctly" or user data for all methods compared. One cannot say that condoms are 98% reliable if used correctly, then cite user data for the withdrawal method.
Here's a useful table of data on this.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
The withdrawal method isn't particularly bad. It's 96% reliable, if used correctly. The problem is, as with any method of contraception, people cannot be relied upon to use it correctly.
But that does mean something for comparators. One should use either "if used correctly" or user data for all methods compared. One cannot say that condoms are 98% reliable if used correctly, then cite user data for the withdrawal method.
Here's a useful table of data on this.
That's 96% theoretically. Apart from the "nothing at all" option, actual use reduces effectiveness considerably, and the effectiveness of withdrawal is reduced almost seven-fold (96% to 73%).
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
The withdrawal method isn't particularly bad. It's 96% reliable, if used correctly. The problem is, as with any method of contraception, people cannot be relied upon to use it correctly.
But that does mean something for comparators. One should use either "if used correctly" or user data for all methods compared. One cannot say that condoms are 98% reliable if used correctly, then cite user data for the withdrawal method.
Here's a useful table of data on this.
What there needs to be is a table of "chances of you getting it wrong when you have the raging horn".
Implants, medical interventions and medicines will always score much, much higher.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
The withdrawal method isn't particularly bad. It's 96% reliable, if used correctly. The problem is, as with any method of contraception, people cannot be relied upon to use it correctly.
Oh rubbish!
The withdrawl method is 73% reliable under normal circumstances - and that's the value that matters (for both the withdrawl method and the fertility awareness method). And as a rule people don't fuck up with vasectomies or IUDs because they don't have to get it right "while they have a raging horn". Which is why vasectomies, IUDs, and tubal ligations have an effectiveness rate about equal to the theory.
[ 07. November 2013, 14:09: Message edited by: Justinian ]
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Not just the raging horn, but six pints of Guinness tends to reduce the efficacy of withdrawal; although it may in the Shakespearean gloss, 'provoke the desire, but take away the performance', none the less, it can, at the supreme moment of crisis, make people think, oh what the fuck, live now, knit the bootees tomorrow. Again, as old Bill said, 'drink is an equivocator with lechery'.
[ 07. November 2013, 14:20: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I think what gets some people is the supposed lack of "spontaneity" - in other words, these are the people who think that a woman taking the contraceptive pill makes sex somehow" calculating.
As for the hormones messing up how they feel about sex, there may be a little truth in this but not a lot: the old contraceptive pills, because of their action in duping the body into thinking it was alredy pregnant, were far more likely to cause the sort of hormonal imbalance likely to impede the female response than the modern low-dose pill.
In this, as in most discussions about contraception, the most reliable method - other than surgical or pharmacological intervention - is being ignored: the diaphragm or Dutch Cap.
The use of caps is straightforward, doesn't interrupt the sex act and doesn't interfere with the body's hormone balance. Used in conjunction with spermicide it can be 100% reliable.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
If you want to use the fertility awaress method, you need to fulfill three conditions:- The women has to have a very regular period.
- You have to be able to count very well.
- You have to love children very much.
(Dutch comedian Youp van 't Hek)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
I belong to a community on livejournal that is dedicated to things related to female sexuality, and I find it astonishing how many of the people who ask questions use withdrawal _along with_ another birth control method on a regular basis. Talk about ruining things, ugh. I just don't get it.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
The withdrawl method is 73% reliable under normal circumstances - and that's the value that matters (for both the withdrawl method and the fertility awareness method).
Then that is the metric you have to use for all other methods. For instance, condoms are then only 85% reliable, because of exactly the same normal circumstances. (The main things going for condoms really are that they're cheap and easily-distributed, and that they block STDs.)
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
In this, as in most discussions about contraception, the most reliable method - other than surgical or pharmacological intervention - is being ignored: the diaphragm or Dutch Cap.
Again, those suffer from not being used properly in practice, with the result that they're about as effective as condoms if the woman has not had children. If the woman has had children, then they're even worse (even if she had a Caesarean), because of the effect on the cervix of having a considerable weight on top of it for some months.
Short of surgery, IUDs are by far the most effective form of contraception in practice, followed closely by implants (Implanon/Nexplanon) and injections (Depo-Provera). This shouldn't be surprising, as these are the forms least reliant on user intervention.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
I belong to a community on livejournal that is dedicated to things related to female sexuality, and I find it astonishing how many of the people who ask questions use withdrawal _along with_ another birth control method on a regular basis. Talk about ruining things, ugh. I just don't get it.
I'm confused. How does using withdrawal along with another birth control method ruin things? If there's no or little risk of pregnancy, what's ruined?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
The article makes it sound like women in their late 20s and 30s who while not admitting to be planning a pregnancy are actually open to the possibility of an "oops".
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Jade Constable: I'm confused. How does using withdrawal along with another birth control method ruin things? If there's no or little risk of pregnancy, what's ruined?
If you're already using another birth control method and you're using withdrawal just to be sure, you're going to ruin your sex.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
LeRoc got it in one. Ugh. Yes, I have used withdrawal (TMI, I know) and it sucks.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
It should be noted that most of what's being described in New York Magazine's "Pullout Generation" article seems to be a combination of the rhythm method (note the three separate mentions of the period-tracker app) and condom use at certain times of the month. I'm not sure how much actual withdrawal is going on here.
I'm also not certain what to make of women who say they're leary of hormonal contraceptives and yet also make sure to keep Plan B on hand.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Nicolemr: I have used withdrawal (TMI, I know) and it sucks.
Sometimes quite literally.
(Couldn't resist)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Personally I find that a much more satisfactory solution to the problem, Le Roc. But that really _is_ TMI.
[ 08. November 2013, 00:04: Message edited by: Nicolemr ]
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The withdrawal method isn't particularly bad. It's 96% reliable, if used correctly. The problem is, as with any method of contraception, people cannot be relied upon to use it correctly.
I can concur. I had a flatmate who had sex with 25 women during the time I knew him and the last one was a pregnancy. He was a strong advocate of the pull-out method. Oh yes.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The withdrawal method isn't particularly bad. It's 96% reliable, if used correctly. The problem is, as with any method of contraception, people cannot be relied upon to use it correctly.
I can concur. I had a flatmate who had sex with 25 women during the time I knew him and the last one was a pregnancy. He was a strong advocate of the pull-out method. Oh yes.
With a 96% non-pregnancy rate there he was obviously using that method correctly.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Used in conjunction with spermicide it can be 100% reliable.
'Can' is a very dangerous word. And there is not any evidenced based medical article that I could find to support it. It is not a bad technique. But no technique, no matter how practiced, is 100% to the best of my knowledge.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
The article makes it sound like women in their late 20s and 30s who while not admitting to be planning a pregnancy are actually open to the possibility of an "oops".
Biologically, that would be about as surprising as their eating ice cream. There's only so much cultural pressure can do.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
With a 96% non-pregnancy rate there he was obviously using that method correctly.
I believe the standard figure used is the chance of pregnancy occurring in a relationship where that method is used for one year, rather than one night. I mean it's possible that this guy did date each of these 25 women for a year each... not using condoms in this situation, though, is spectacularly irresponsible given the risk of STIs.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
I used the Persona monitor which has a 94% rate. You use this to test urine samples for hormone levels throughout the cycle and it gives red or green signals for having sex. I used the successfully both as a contraceptive device and for planning my pregnancies. I do have 2 friends who got pregnant using Persona, one cheated and had sex on a 'red' day the other used it without waiting for it to learn her hormone cycle (honeymoon baby). I have other Christian friends who used Persona, and a Muslim couple bought theirs at the same time as me.
We were keen to look into natural fertility methods as we wanted to avoid artificial hormones for health reasons. If we hadn't used this I probably would have used a diaphragm.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
My most successful method was breast-feeding. The doctor was horrified when, at my 8 week check up after having my son I said I intended to rely on breast-feeding, and that we were aiming for a "golden gap" of 2 years, 10 weeks. We actually have a gap of 2 years 6 weeks.
But we wanted another baby and would have been relaxed about a much shorter gap; we were "birth-spacing" rather than "birth-avoiding." The fact that we got our ideal spacing using a no hassle whatsoever method was a bonus.
I know several women, all sensible and responsible, who fell pregnant while using condoms. That would include me, twice.
[ 08. November 2013, 10:58: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Jade Constable: I'm confused. How does using withdrawal along with another birth control method ruin things? If there's no or little risk of pregnancy, what's ruined?
If you're already using another birth control method and you're using withdrawal just to be sure, you're going to ruin your sex.
But that's nonsense. Some people prefer it like that, so it cannot be objectively true that it 'ruins' anything at all.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
LeRoc got it in one. Ugh. Yes, I have used withdrawal (TMI, I know) and it sucks.
It sucked for you personally, not for everyone who uses it.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
The article makes it sound like women in their late 20s and 30s who while not admitting to be planning a pregnancy are actually open to the possibility of an "oops".
Biologically, that would be about as surprising as their eating ice cream. There's only so much cultural pressure can do.
So women in their 20s and 30s who do not want children don't exist?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The withdrawal method isn't particularly bad. It's 96% reliable, if used correctly. The problem is, as with any method of contraception, people cannot be relied upon to use it correctly.
I can concur. I had a flatmate who had sex with 25 women during the time I knew him and the last one was a pregnancy. He was a strong advocate of the pull-out method. Oh yes.
With a 96% non-pregnancy rate there he was obviously using that method correctly.
I'd suggest the other 24 women were using another method. Maybe all 25.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
So women in their 20s and 30s who do not want children don't exist?
By what logic would that follow from my comment?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I think there's the same huge problem with "pull out," as there is with condoms -- it's in the hands of men.
It always amazes me when women are willing to allow a men to take charge of this issue. When contraception failsshe is the one who will decide whether or not to get an abortion, carry the baby in her body for nine months, keep or adopt, breast feed or bottle and most likely do the large majority of child care for the next 18 years.
I like implants and IUDs. They last for years and they're inserted in the cold, sober light of day; raging horns and alcohol cannot influence either person.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Jade Constable: But that's nonsense. Some people prefer it like that, so it cannot be objectively true that it 'ruins' anything at all.
I'm sure that Nicolemr was giving a personal opinion, not an objective truth that would be valid for all.
Personally, I don't think that pull-out would really work for me either. It takes longer to pull a 747 out of a hangar than a Cessna two-seater, if you catch my drift.
[ 08. November 2013, 12:58: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Breast feeding does not prevent ovulation in all women, although it may make it less frequent. While I was breast feeding I ovulated every forty-five days instead of every twenty-eight.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Breast feeding does not prevent ovulation in all women, although it may make it less frequent. While I was breast feeding I ovulated every forty-five days instead of every twenty-eight.
Moo
I have heard that does differ between women. Besides my doctor saying that approximately, I have a friend who figured she'd eventually get pregnant if she used nursing as her only protection, and she wanted to get pregnant. She finally had to wean her son from night feeding after a couple years of trying. She got pregnant the very next cycle after his last feed.
[ 08. November 2013, 13:31: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Jade Constable: But that's nonsense. Some people prefer it like that, so it cannot be objectively true that it 'ruins' anything at all.
I'm sure that Nicolemr was giving a personal opinion, not an objective truth that would be valid for all.
Personally, I don't think that pull-out would really work for me either. It takes longer to pull a 747 out of a hangar than a Cessna two-seater, if you catch my drift.
I'm trying to work out if that's a wildly exaggerated boast, or a wild self-underestimation. I shall try to keep a tension between the two, I think.
The other problem is, if they're leaking fuel.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Personally, I don't think that pull-out would really work for me either. It takes longer to pull a 747 out of a hangar than a Cessna two-seater, if you catch my drift.
Depends on the hangar, I'd think.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I think there's the same huge problem with "pull out," as there is with condoms -- it's in the hands of men.
If it's in the hands of men, the chance of pregnancy is minimal.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Probably enough double entendre.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
This is an interesting piece about pregnancy ambivalence.
"The research team looked at questions relating to pregnancy ambivalence and contraceptive use, and their findings are quite startling. About 45 percent of respondents exhibited ambivalence towards pregnancy, and men were significantly more likely than women to be ambivalent (53 percent of men compared with 36 percent of women). People who expressed ambivalence about pregnancy were more likely to have used no birth control method in the past month."
Relying on a man who is more ambivalent about the possibility of pregnancy to pull out might not be a good bet of you really do not want to get pregnant.
quote:
Posted by Twilight:
I like implants and IUDs. They last for years and they're inserted in the cold, sober light of day; raging horns and alcohol cannot influence either person.
IUDs are becoming much more popular. They last 5 or 10 years depending on type and are very effective.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
The article makes it sound like women in their late 20s and 30s who while not admitting to be planning a pregnancy are actually open to the possibility of an "oops".
Biologically, that would be about as surprising as their eating ice cream. There's only so much cultural pressure can do.
So women in their 20s and 30s who do not want children don't exist?
What I find interesting about IngoB's comment is the implication that there is cultural pressure on women to not have children, but that this dam is likely to break eventually under biological imperative. For all I know, there may very well be a biological imperative, I'm not in a position to comment on that. But as for the cultural pressure, from where I'm standing, it runs very much the other way. There is still an expectation that women will have children, and those who are known to have chosen not to are still being vilified or scorned for that choice (Julia Gillard and Sara Teather spring to mind as recent examples). Added to this, at every turn of your head, the glory and joy of parenthood is being shoved in your face, if you're a woman. Most of the media aimed at us seems to exist on a steady diet of either watching female public figures and speculating about their gestational status, or on features such as gushing interviews headlined with "****'s baby joy", or "Baby heals ***'s heart", complete, of course, with an expertly made up and exquisitely gowned new mum and predictably gorgeous baby.
However, all that ranting aside, the litmus test for me, in terms of the direction in which the 'cultural pressure' runs is this: If a woman has a baby, does anyone ask her to explain why she would do such a thing? Whereas if a woman decides not to have any babies...?
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
This is a load of shite.
Some of us couldn't get a decent man and are now barren through age.
No choice.
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I find it utterly ridiculous that a woman's choice not to have children should be stigmatized in this day and age.
As for Coitus interruptus , I thought that was only something that happened in the days of the air-raids.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
It is stigmatized. Mainly by men.
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
My experience is that it is vastly more stigmatised by women than men.
There seems to be a significant group of women who are in some way threatened by the thought of other women not having children. I don't know why - possibly they are afraid to accept that it is reasonable to make a different choice to the one they made.
Many women with children seem to be unable to grasp that the concept of not having children is distinct from that of losing the children that they have and love.
[ 08. November 2013, 20:24: Message edited by: Drifting Star ]
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
However, all that ranting aside, the litmus test for me, in terms of the direction in which the 'cultural pressure' runs is this: If a woman has a baby, does anyone ask her to explain why she would do such a thing? Whereas if a woman decides not to have any babies...?
Let me start by noting that I agree with everything you're saying. This is not disagreement. That said I think this is changing as I was asked by more than one person why I would ever want kids.
Mind, it's still much less annoying to be asked that why when one does have kids, because anyone who doesn't have an answer to that shouldn't have kids. While anyone who doesn't have kids might have no more answer than 'Why should I? I'm happy right now.' A perfectly good answer, but won't satisfy the kind of dweeb who would ask.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
You may be right. A lot of women fear absolute aloneness in the world and know that not having children guarantees that in old age.
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