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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Can Pope Francis rehab Christianity's image?
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
This is being done every single day. Christians working with the poor feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, touch the leper, kiss the diseased, embrace the unwashed, hold the hand of the dying.
If the cameras came to Salvation Army hostels, Catholic hospitals, Anglican soup counters, etc, etc, etc, they would on see what we have known for centuries.
It's good that 'we' have a Pope who attracts the cameras of the paparazzi. A lot of good is being done. let's hope no one snaps him on a bad day when he ignores (or just doesn't see) a sick person waiting in the crowd. It can easily turn the other way. The press is fickle.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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scribbler
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# 12268
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Posted
I'm not sure little practical kindness means much if the RCC continues to teach that God will torture you for eternity based on the transgressions of a confused, feeble, finite mortal life...
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by scribbler:
I'm not sure little practical kindness means much if the RCC continues to teach that God will torture you for eternity based on the transgressions of a confused, feeble, finite mortal life...
That's not what the Bible teaches.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
Nor what the RCC teaches.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
If the cameras came to Salvation Army hostels, Catholic hospitals, Anglican soup counters, etc, etc, etc, they would on see what we have known for centuries.
But...they don't. They do however seem particularly enamored by Pope Francis. So maybe there's a way to capitalize on this somehow.
I'm thinking more PR strategy of the church, rather than any change in our charitable activities - which I think we all know are quite substantial.
It seems like collectively shutting up about social issues and just loving people - what Francis appears to be doing - is a good way to get the attention of non-believers.
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
What I think is that the Pope is demonstrating a ministry of compassion that he has continually practiced (probably in secret) all through his ministry. Why should he change now? The press has picked up on this 'new style' of Pope.
All he is doing (very well) is showing the world what real Christianity is all about. "Inasmuch..."
[ 08. November 2013, 16:57: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Sipech
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# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by scribbler:
I'm not sure little practical kindness means much if the RCC continues to teach that God will torture you for eternity based on the transgressions of a confused, feeble, finite mortal life...
That's not what the Bible teaches.
Never stopped the catholic church before. That's why we had to have the Reformation, to rid christianity of catholic false teaching.
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scribbler
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# 12268
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Nor what the RCC teaches.
From the RCC Cathechism:
The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."
Not sure what I'm missing...
[ 08. November 2013, 17:43: Message edited by: scribbler ]
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by scribbler:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Nor what the RCC teaches.
From the RCC Cathechism:
The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."
Not sure what I'm missing...
Well I believe in hell - eternal and conscious punishment - but that is a little too stark and blunt for my liking; it's also not scriptural on a number of accunts:
1) Souls do not 'immediately after death' go to hell. The Bible teaches a day of judgment which, it seems to me, will be merciful, gracious, just and 'right'. All souls will be gathered together and each person - even if they die 'in sin' will be judged according to the light they receive. Hell will not be populated soul by soul, day by day, year by year, by people falling through some kind of hellish trapdoor that automatically opens to receive their unregenerate soul!
2) There is a resurrection first - there are no disembodied 'souls'. (But that's a tangent)
3) Hell was never designed for humans.
Hell is prepared for the devil and his angels, according to the book of Revelation. tragically, those who are not 'in Christ' will be placed there by default.
4) I do not believe in the 'punishments of hell'. Dante may have had a vivid imagination but popular imagery of pitchforks and torments done to humans by imps and demons is not scriptural. Hell is its own punishment. The fire of hell is symbolic not literal.
5) There are no such things as 'mortal sins' (or venial sins for that matter). Hell, however one perceives it - and none of us can be dogmatic as to its nature - is not a place you are sent to be punished for your individual misdemeanors. Hell is a place that is the destination of all sinners, great and small, who have rejected Christ's salvation. It is a consequence of sin, not a tailor-made list of punishments that fit our various crimes.
Medieval catholicism has a lot to answer for. I wish people would stick to the Bible and see a lot of the symbolism for what it is, and accept that Christ in the greatest mercy and grace offers eternal life to all those who trust him to save them.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
Like it or not, what the pope says and does certainly impacts how non-Christians perceive Christianity. He has the right idea: counteracting all the negatives coverage with positive.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by scribbler:
I'm not sure little practical kindness means much if the RCC continues to teach that God will torture you for eternity based on the transgressions of a confused, feeble, finite mortal life...
That's not what the Bible teaches.
Never stopped the catholic church before. That's why we had to have the Reformation, to rid christianity of catholic false teaching.
Because Protestants have never taught that.... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Also, there are more churches than the RCC and Protestants. Eastern Orthodox Christians are the second-biggest group of Christians in the world, yet strangely enough so many Protestants divide the world into good people and Death Eaters - I mean, Protestants and Catholics.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by scribbler:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Nor what the RCC teaches.
From the RCC Cathechism:
The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."
Not sure what I'm missing...
It says "state of mortal sin", we are not dealing with being confused or making an "oopsie". Mortal sin involves a deliberate and fully intended turning away/rejection of God. Those who turn away from God, have rejected Life itself, and will experience the consequences to that choice.
Now of course, the question of whether or not someone or some people have actually done that remains a mystery. The RCC have insisted that they have never stated for certainty that anyone is in hell.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Francis already has. He is teaching by example, embracing an innocent fellow sinner, infinitely more effective than words.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
Scribbler should read further in the Catholic catechism :
1033 to die in mortal sin without repenting and without accepting God's merciful love means remaining separate from Him forever BY OUR OWN FREE CHOICE. this state of definitive self exclusion..is call 'hell'.
1034 Jesus often speaks of 'Gehenna' of the unquenchable fire reserved for those who TO THE END OF THEIR LIVES refuse to believe.Jesus solemnly proclaims that he will send his angels who will gather evildoers and throw them into the furnace of fire -into the eternal fire
1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture .. are a call to responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny.
1037 God predestines no-one to go to hell,for this a WILFUL turning away from God and a persistence in it till the end is necessary.
Thank you,Anglican-Brat, for trying to explain the difference between what the Church teaches as 'mortal' sin and that which is feeble and confused which the Church classifies as 'venial'
sin,assuming that there is already in the person an awareness of sin.Without some awareness of sin (i.e. if one is too feeble and too confused) there is no sin.
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
What is the average age of death?
What proportion of humanity has been accountably evangelized?
Has said the sinner's prayer? Accepted Jesus Christ as their personal saviour?
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Love wins
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Horseman Bree
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# 5290
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Posted
We could tur this into a series of tangents:
Who is REALLY a Christian?
What do you mean by "turning to Jesus"?
What about the Amazon/New Guinea/Easter Islanders...who never heard of Jesus?
What about the "good" Muslims/agnostics/Buddhists..?
What about the Christians who have been driven away from their church by the actions of other Christians?
...
So, OK, let's go back to Pope Francis.
At the very least, he is giving the church in general, and the RCC in particular, a good-publicity boost in places where Christianity is often badly reported or wrongly reported.
We hope that he is working on causing a shift in attitude or tone that will be helpful.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
The pope is asking the question of himself and others : in trying to lead people to Christ, is it better to be a 'zealous proselytizer' or an 'attractive witness' to Christ's love ?
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
Wonderful witness to the world from what seems to be a thoroughly Godly man -- but it will have limited impact until he sorts his own church out first.
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
The Church can never be 'sorted out' completely till we reach the day of final judgement.
At the moment we just muddle on,each one,hopefully,trying to do his or her best,within the body of the Kirk.
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
If the "willful turning away from God" is turning away from a version of God which is unacceptable to to a reasonable, reasoning person*, does that count as the mortal sin? (As hinted at by Horseman Bree.)
*The sort of God presented by a priest who sexually abuses, for one example. Or by a Torquemada, for another.
[ 10. November 2013, 12:24: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
Turning away from a 'version of God' is not the same as turning away from God.
We are often presented with 'versions of God' which we understand later as really to be 'perversions'.
As we go through life we try to find the authentic vision of God.The best place to seek and find God is in the service of our neighbours.
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Aye turning away from a true version of God is turning away from our neighbour. Turning toward God without turning toward neighbour is meaningless.
And I'm certainly found wanting since sunrise.
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Love wins
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Horseman Bree
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# 5290
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Posted
As reported in The Grauniad , Pope Francis appears to be having some effect on at least the Italian segment of the RCC:
quote:
Researcher Massimo Introvigne, a sociologist and head of Italy's Centre for the Study of New Religions (Cesnur), found that 51% of 250 priests he interviewed reported a significant rise in church attendance since the election of the former Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio in March.
"If we project those results nationally, and if only half the parishes and communities in Italy have been touched by the Francis effect, then we're talking about hundreds of thousands of people who are returning," he said.
There was evidence that the 76-year-old Argentinian pope had made an even more dramatic impact in Britain. In a smaller survey, of 22 British cathedrals, 65% of the respondents had said they had noticed a rise in numbers, Introvigne added.
Apparently, his actions and attitude affect those who have most distanced themselves from the church:
quote:
According to two of Italy's most senior clerics, Francis is making his biggest impact on long-lapsed Catholics. Cardinal Giuseppe Betori, the archbishop of Florence, said: "So many are returning to the sacraments, in some cases after decades."
This would indicate that there is a pool of people who would like to return to a more accepting church, as Il Papa has said.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
This would indicate that there is a pool of people who would like to return to a more accepting church, as Il Papa has said.
The papacy has sort of set itself up for a situation like this. That little quote in the rafters of St. Peter's, "...tibi dabo claves..." (..."to thee I give the keys...") may prompt people to ask, "Why have you made it virtually impossible for yourself to let us in? If you have the keys, maybe it's time to open up."
[ 11. November 2013, 00:24: Message edited by: Olaf ]
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PaulTH*
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# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by scribbler:
I'm not sure little practical kindness means much if the RCC continues to teach that God will torture you for eternity based on the transgressions of a confused, feeble, finite mortal life...
Actually the Catholic Church, at least post Vatican II is quite open to the idea that we may legitimately hope and pray for the salvation of all, much to the annoyance of some on this forum. We can never be sure that all are saved, because God's sovereignty is absolute, and we never know where the balance of mercy and justice lies with any individual. By the same token, the Church has never proclaimed that any individual is in hell. Pope John Paul II said,
"Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it.” (General Audience 28th July 1999)
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, while confirming the reality of hell also says:
1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: "Lord, let me never be parted from you." If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God "desires all men to be saved" (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him "all things are possible" (Mt 19:26)
If we conclude that "all things are possible" for God, and Matt 19.26 is where the exasperated disciples asked Jesus, "Who then can be saved?"
With the Church praying that no one should be lost, especially in this month of the Holy Souls, I have a lot of confidence in God's mercy.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
article about Pope Francis increasing attendance
An article on Slate this morning citing data from an Italian research center, that 51% of Catholic priests surveyed said their attendance is up since Pope Francis took office.
Seems he's definitely having some local effect on Catholics in any case.
[fixed scroll lock -Gwai]
[ 12. November 2013, 11:28: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Actually the Catholic Church, at least post Vatican II is quite open to the idea that we may legitimately hope and pray for the salvation of all, much to the annoyance of some on this forum.
It is not merely legitimate but a Christian duty to hope and pray for the salvation of all. We are to love our neighbours like ourselves, and since I do not wish to go to hell I cannot in cold blood wish that my neighbours do. It is however also prudent and faithful to realize that this is simply not going to happen. Jesus did not issue empty threats in speaking of hell, and when he talks about the difficulty of going to heaven those difficulties are not imaginary.
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
We can never be sure that all are saved, because God's sovereignty is absolute, and we never know where the balance of mercy and justice lies with any individual.
Indeed, we cannot know where that balance sits. But we certainly can know that it does not rest on universal salvation, because that would turn much of scripture, including much of what Jesus said, into rhetorical bollocks. We can also know that it does not rest on universal doom, for the same reason. However, magically people seem to be only discussing the possibility of the former when they pretend that nothing is known about the balance, never the latter.
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
By the same token, the Church has never proclaimed that any individual is in hell. Pope John Paul II said, "Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it.” (General Audience 28th July 1999)
But of course we have had quite a fair number of special Divine revelations on the topic, and they invariably discuss the fate of the doomed in hell, which is absurd if it is empty. Take St Catherine of Sienna as one typical example.
(It is perhaps notable that one of the main sources of the universalist confusion in the RCC, Hans Urs von Balthasar, based his arguments and interpretations of scripture closely on the visions of Adrienne von Speyr, who is not a Saint of the RCC. In some sense then we have a battle of visions there, and a discernment of spirits is needed. It's ironic that an ex-Jesuit would fail so blatantly at that...)
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, while confirming the reality of hell also says:
1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: "Lord, let me never be parted from you." If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God "desires all men to be saved" (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him "all things are possible" (Mt 19:26)
If we conclude that "all things are possible" for God, and Matt 19.26 is where the exasperated disciples asked Jesus, "Who then can be saved?"
Of course, Mt 19:26 follows 19:23-24, which discusses how hard it is for a rich man to reach heaven. How can it be "hard" for a rich man if universalism holds? It is then not "hard" for anyone on account of anything, since simply existing is sufficient for going to heaven. That something is "hard" requires that some people fail at it. Otherwise it is not hard. Indeed, if nobody ever fails at it, then it is not even "easy", it is then simply a matter of course. This is totally alien to the gospel.
CCC 1058 is not strictly false as such, but it certainly is suggestive of the obvious falsehood of universalism. The basic problem there, as elsewhere with such suggestions, is the failure to mention that God may have other "desires" than only that all men be saved, e.g., a desire for justice and holiness. Luckily, in the CCC this statement "In Brief" is balanced by the actual section on "Hell" (paragraphs 1033-1037). There we find orthodox statements like Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." Again one wonders what the proponents of universalism say of mortal sin. Clearly there is no such thing then, and the many teachings of the Church on mortal sin are all destined for the garbage can.
The very idea of an empty hell is an absurdity. An empty hell simply does not exist. Hell is not some kind of physical place that could fall into disuse, and hence is boarded up and empty. Hell is primarily a process not a place. If there is no eternal torture of sinners, then there is no hell. Jesus says that there is hell. The consequence is obvious.
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
With the Church praying that no one should be lost, especially in this month of the Holy Souls, I have a lot of confidence in God's mercy.
So do I. Without His mercy, nobody would go to heaven. That the alternative to "nobody" must be "everybody" is however a dualist concept for which I see very little evidence in scripture and tradition indeed.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
An article on Slate this morning citing data from an Italian research center, that 51% of Catholic priests surveyed said their attendance is up since Pope Francis took office.
Meaning 49% said it was down?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
No chance a percentage thought it was unchanged then ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Balance? What a quaint, ancient Egyptian, pagan, graceless concept.
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Love wins
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
No chance a percentage thought it was unchanged then ?
Of course there's more than a chance and I was being a bit facetious, but its interesting that we're not told that figure.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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PaulTH*
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# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
In some sense then we have a battle of visions there, and a discernment of spirits is needed.
This is quite so, but with your usual total lack of humility, you refuse to accept that, in Christian, even in Catholic history, not all theologians have agreed, leading to differences of opinion which might be equally valid. For example, I much prefer the apophatic theology of John Scottus Eriugena, or of the Cloud of Unknowing, to the scolasticism of Thomas Aquinas. I prefer Peter Abelard's moral influence theory of atonement to Anselm's satisfaction. Yet I could be wrong. And I infinitely prefer Adrienne von Speyr to St Catherine of Siena.
Although St Catherine was a scholastic, mystic and Doctor of the Church, I don't feel bound by her medieval views on hell, from a plague ridden feudal era. Adrienne von Speyr was a mystic who saw the whole of creation as a representation of Christ's seamless robe, woven by His Mother. She is certainly responsible for the visions which so inspired Hans Urs von Balthasar. Von Balthasar, made a cardinal by Pope John Paul II, sortly before his death remains for favourite 20th century theologian. Yet his conviction that we may legitiamately dare to hope for the salvation of all is hardly unique. In his book "The Orthodox Church," Metropolitan Kallistos Ware makes the same arguement:
quote:
Hell exists as a final possibility, but several of the Fathers have none the less believed that in the end all will be reconciled to God. It is heretical to say that all must be saved, for this is to deny free will; but it is legitimate to hope that all may be saved. Until the Last Day comes, we must not despair of anyone’s salvation, but must long and pray for the reconciliation of all without exception. No one must be excluded from our loving intercession. ‘What is a merciful heart?’ asked Isaac the Syrian. ‘It is a heart that burns with love for the whole of creation, for men, for the birds, for the beasts, for the demons, for all creatures’
However much you may see us as a failed species, the majority of which is consigned to eternal torment, through your understanding of Scripture and the Church, I agree with + Kallistos and Cardinal von Balthasar. Just another battle of visions.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
However much you may see us as a failed species, the majority of which is consigned to eternal torment, through your understanding of Scripture and the Church, I agree with + Kallistos and Cardinal von Balthasar. Just another battle of visions.
I agree with your quote from +Ware, as it happens, though I may well disagree with other things he says in this context. I'm not a big fan of Eriugena, the universalist pantheist multiply condemned of heresy by the Church, though I do like the writings of Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite that Eriugena helped bring to the West. Incidentally, this appreciation of Pseudo-Dionysius was shared by St Thomas Aquinas whose scholasticism is rather apophatic, perhaps inform yourself a bit better about that? As for the Cloud of Unknowing, together with the Book of Privy Council it is a favourite text of mine for its pragmatic and practical mysticism. I have mentioned its teachings several times on SoF, in particular concerning the difference between Buddhist-type meditation and Christian contemplation, like here in a post from 2007. However, it is an all around good book, for example:
quote:
SOME there be, that although they be not deceived with this error as it is set here, yet for pride and curiosity of natural wit and letterly cunning leave the common doctrine and the counsel of Holy Church. And these with all their favourers lean over much to their own knowing: and for they were never grounded in meek blind feeling and virtuous living, therefore they merit to have a false feeling, feigned and wrought by the ghostly enemy. Insomuch, that at the last they burst up and blaspheme all the saints, sacraments, statutes, and ordinances of Holy Church. Fleshly living men of the world, the which think the statutes of Holy Church over hard to be amended by, they lean to these heretics full soon and full lightly, and stalwartly maintain them, and all because them think that they lead them a softer way than is ordained of Holy Church.
Now truly I trow, that who that will not go the strait way to heaven, that they shall go the soft way to hell. Each man prove by himself, for I trow that all such heretics, and all their favourers, an they might clearly be seen as they shall on the last day, should be seen full soon cumbered in great and horrible sins of the world in their foul flesh, privily, without their open presumption in maintaining of error: so that they be full properly called Antichrist’s disciples. For it is said of them, that for all their false fairness openly, yet they should be full foul lechers privily.
Hear, hear.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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S. Bacchus
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# 17778
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Posted
Whilst I have great respect for Pope Francis, I also worry about and for him. He seems like a man of great personal holiness and kindness, but he has also become a media darling in a way that reminds me of John F. Kennedy and the late Princess of Wales. The same was true of John Paul II, of course, but not quite to the same extent. The problem with that kind of fawning media attention is that it's extremely fickle.
So, yes, let's praise Pope Francis, but within reasonable terms, and without the implicit libel against his predecessor that's been so common. It is worth remembering that the same media that adore Pope Francis hated not only his predecessor but also Rowan Williams, another religious leader of obvious compassion and humanity who was similarly hailed as being an outsider to the Church he was called to lead. It may be that Francis, whose gifts and holiness seem to be of a simpler sort than either Rowan's or Benedict's, will get off more lightly. I hope that he does, and not only for his sake.
Francis, as I have said, seems to combine many of the most important Christian virtues. That's obviously a very good thing. What the secular media seem either unwilling or else too stupid to acknowledge is that the the list of compassionate and humane religious leaders is longer than simply Mother Teresa, the Dalai Lama, and Pope Francis.
With that note of caution, I am very happy to say that Francis reminds me a good deal of what I've read about John XXIII. I think John XXIII had the balance between humility and the dignity of office down somewhat better, though.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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Desert Daughter
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# 13635
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Posted
I agree with Bacchus. I too am worried. As to the media: they crown and uncrown their darlings as they think will please the fickle masses. More discerning observers already see that there is more to Francis than his cuddly image. I am confident that he will know to live with the media, not through them.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Dignity of office? That's what makes him so lovable! As long as he keeps loving and being FOR something (IngoB ...) I will find it easy to love him.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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