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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Spiritual growth
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
Spiritual growth is a topic that often comes up in religio-spiritual circles.
What is spiritual growth?
Can you measure it? If so, how?
If you can't measure it, how do you know it is growth?
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a theological scrapbook
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
Struth Evensong where do you start with a poser like that? Great question my lovely.
Personally prefer to talk about 'maturity' rather than 'growth'. Mike Breen has a nifty model for this. Talking about how we respond to Christian teaching he says we relate to it in three successive ways To begin with its like a picture - we have a good gander to see what's in the frame; then we're like a mirror as we see ourselves in the light of it, then we're like a window - as we live it out, other people see the Christ behind the teaching revealed in our own lives.
How's that sound for a starter?
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
I put "Spiritual growth" up there with "good sense of humour" : it all depends on the observer/assessor's own viewpoint.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
Spiritual growth?
How about...
An increase in trust and confidence in God?
An increasingly vivid sense of the presence and reality of God?
A growth in understanding the nature and ways of God?
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Struth Evensong where do you start with a poser like that? Great question my lovely.
Personally prefer to talk about 'maturity' rather than 'growth'. Mike Breen has a nifty model for this. Talking about how we respond to Christian teaching he says we relate to it in three successive ways To begin with its like a picture - we have a good gander to see what's in the frame; then we're like a mirror as we see ourselves in the light of it, then we're like a window - as we live it out, other people see the Christ behind the teaching revealed in our own lives.
How's that sound for a starter?
Agree - great question!
I like the Mike Breen quote - especially the idea of the ultimate result being others seeing Christ in us. I guess one of the ways you would "measure" that would be the evidence of the fruit of Spirit in our lives?
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
This is a really great question for atheists too, since spiritual growth, if one can define such a thing, is surely all aspects of the aesthetic side of life?
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
quote:
posted by Etymological Evangelical
Spiritual growth? How about... An increase in trust and confidence in God? An increasingly vivid sense of the presence and reality of God? A growth in understanding the nature and ways of God?
Looks and sounds good - but all subjective.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist
Looks and sounds good - but all subjective.
Yes. And why not?
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Galilit
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# 16470
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Posted
Just reading Evolving Dharma by Jay Michaelson (subtitled Meditation, Buddhism and the Next Generation of the Enlightenment).
I think Christianity is a bit weak on the basic idea of spiritual growth and stages one might go through (ever deeper practices and experiences) compared to Buddhism for example.
Perhaps in Monastic Orders there is more structured development of one's gifts, skills, practices etc.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Graham J
Apprentice
# 505
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Posted
The question reminded me of the prayer of St Richard (of Chichester):
Thanks be to you, our Lord Jesus Christ,
for all the benefits which you have given us,
for all the pains and insults which you have borne for us.
Most merciful Redeemer, Friend and Brother,
may we know you more clearly,
love you more dearly,
and follow you more nearly,
day by day.
[ 09. November 2013, 15:04: Message edited by: Graham J ]
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GJ
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Sign me up as another one who doesn't see why spiritual growth would have to be measurable.
quote:
SusanDoris: This is a really great question for atheists too, since spiritual growth, if one can define such a thing, is surely all aspects of the aesthetic side of life?
I agree (although I wouldn't use the word 'aesthetic' here, it sounds a bit limited in this context).
[ 09. November 2013, 15:18: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
... wouldn't use the word 'aesthetic' here, it sounds a bit limited in this context).
Yes, I agree with that. However, over the last several years, I've never seen a single word or even short phrrase which will do instead.
I did hear an exchange between two people (on Radio 4) recently where one clearly had in mind only religious spirituality and the other a much wider idea of it.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: However, over the last several years, I've never seen a single word or even short phrrase which will do instead.
Indeed, spirituality is hard to define. (I don't think that I'd want to try it here; we already had multi-page threads on the Ship trying to define it, without much result.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Struth Evensong where do you start with a poser like that? Great question my lovely.
Personally prefer to talk about 'maturity' rather than 'growth'. Mike Breen has a nifty model for this. Talking about how we respond to Christian teaching he says we relate to it in three successive ways To begin with its like a picture - we have a good gander to see what's in the frame; then we're like a mirror as we see ourselves in the light of it, then we're like a window - as we live it out, other people see the Christ behind the teaching revealed in our own lives.
How's that sound for a starter?
I think that's very good. I like the progression from a sort of detached attitude, as in the picture, to a closer one - the mirror - but the window is an excellent metaphor for the bursting through the mirror to the reality.
I would relate this to the erosion of ego, or in more traditional language, self-abandonment, which permits the walls to come down which separate us from life, others, and God. However, it's a tough road!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
The ability to measure something is inversely proportional to its value. (Not universally, but often true in a general way.)
Is there a sort of spiritual growth version of the Heisenburg Uncertainty principle then?
But we aren't talking about any form of objective or absolute measure anyway are we? Isn't this about: I'm more patient/considerate to others/aware of God than I was last month/year/decade? We are just aware of behaving or reacting differently to things that we might've done before?
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I prefer the phrase 'spiritual development' to 'spiritual growth' - there would be something wrong if one's spiritual awareness and understanding stayed exactly the same throughout the whole of life. If there is evidence of some sort of change, then you are developing in any number of different ways, which cannot be prescribed in advance.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Spiritual growth is a topic that often comes up in religio-spiritual circles.
What is spiritual growth?
Can you measure it? If so, how?
If you can't measure it, how do you know it is growth?
In the Christian context, I'd say at least a starting point for a discussion / definition of spiritual growth would reference the fruit of the Spirit as in Galatians 5:22-23. If someone is being more loving, joyful, peaceful etc. then they are growing spiritually. I think there's far more to it, but this seems a good place to start.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I would expect the change caused by spiritual growth to be qualitative rather than quantitative.
I suppose those who believe in the miracles of saints or rabbis might try to count signs and wonders, but even there I think the tradition is that they are unique and the quality is what you're supposed to contemplate.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Concerning the concept of measuring spiritual growth...
Some years ago I attended an Anglican Church, which tried (vainly, in my view) to market itself as the lively charismatic Anglican church of the town. One year most of the congregation worked through a course (I think it was one devised by Tony Higton called "Called to Serve"), and it culminated in a dedication service. Some time prior to the service, one of the elders of the church (yes, we had elders!) voiced the idea that "it would be good if everyone who wished to commit themselves to God afresh would stand up during the service, so that we could see who they are..." Of course, what he meant was: "...so that we can see who doesn't stand up."
Thankfully he relented and people just dedicated themselves silently while seated. But it made me think how some church leaders just love to find ways to grade Christians according to their perceived commitment. I generally like to run a mile from such characters. It's frankly none of their bloody business where I am with God, unless my position before God has some direct detrimental influence on the church. In the absence of that, they can take a hike, as far as I am concerned.
One thing I am pretty sure about is this: any Christian who goes on about how wholehearted and committed he is to Christ, is not really wholehearted at all. If he were, he would not go on about it, because he would not be thinking about himself at all, but seeking to serve others in humility and grace.
[ 09. November 2013, 21:17: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I generally like to run a mile from such characters.
But have you ever measured how fast you run? Otherwise, how are we supposed to know exactly how much you dislike them? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
Yes, that is what it's about. I'm with LeRoc: why try to measure the growth? As long as I know which direction I'm supposed to be growing in and get enough feedback to keep me going, that's enough for me.
I think that knowing a direction and knowing if you are going in that direction is measurement itself, or at least judgment.
If we take the Galatians list "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" then we are provided with a nominal measurement scale (I am not saying that love, joy, peace etc are the only possible spiritual attributes).
There are also ordinal, interval and ratio scales. These can be combined to form complex measures.
E.g we can know whether kindness exists (nominal) and for ourselves we might want to know if we are kinder than we once were so we might rank a spiritual attribute as W Hyatt seems to be doing.
I am used to a four point ranking scale for judgement which for e.g. kindness would be:
No kindness
Some kindness
Much kindness
Complete kindness
Of course, it is a value judgment as to the comparative values of spiritual virtues. Rabbi Lionel Blue said that if he was asked to pick one above all others, the he would choose generosity of spirit, because without generosity of spirit he does not believe in any of the rest.
This would make a complex measurement where e.g. forbearance and self-control did not count unless there was generosity of spirit present.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think it's more complex than that. For example, there are people with a false kindness, which is a kind of act or mask. Then, for them, to stop being kind, might be spiritual progress. Or for some people, I think going into a period of emptiness can be spiritual progress. But the crucial word here is 'can'; for others, it might not be.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
Agreed.
I wasn't proposing the measurement system, but an approach to how one could be created.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
I agree that knowing a direction and knowing if you are going in that direction is at least judgment, but I still have to ask why even try to measure something like spiritual growth? Even if you could establish a reasonable framework or approach, why would you? It seems to me that the very act of figuring out such an approach would immediately start missing the essential point.
You mention as an example that we might want to know if we are kinder than we once were, but I'm not sure why I would want to know even that. All I really want or need to know is how I can be kinder than I currently am. Beyond that, any comparison of how kind I am now to how kind I was in the past starts to make it about me rather than about the people around me who I can be kind to.
Of course, being imperfect, I realize that I need to feel some amount of pride or satisfaction in my own progress in order to be motivated to continue. But my goal should be to get past my need for such "aids" rather than to reinforce it by trying measuring my progress.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
Well, apart from the nominal attributes I quoted above there is also the Gal 6 passage "Brothers and sisters, if a person is discovered in some sin, you who are spiritual restore such a person in a spirit of gentleness. Pay close attention to yourselves, so that you are not tempted too" which requires at least determining the existence of spirituality in some way.
Also, one of my Spiritual Care functions is nurturing spiritual growth which indicates that one should at least know what could nurture spiritual growth and implies that the growth could be observed in some way.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
Maybe it's a matter of connotation, but to me, "measure" implies far more than knowing what could nurture spiritual growth or observing it in some way (both of which sound great to me). In particular, "measure" implies to me establishing some objective scale for the sake of comparison, both of which sound to me like missing the essential point.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Well you can do various kinds of brain scan which give you images of the regions of the brain which are lighting up (or not) - ie are active (or not) - when a person is in meditation/prayer.
This has been done for years (with increasing detail as technology and understanding develope).
I don't know how you might access (let alone interpret!) that info to monitor your own progress though...
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
It's not exactly answering the question and possibly a bit simplistic - but I do think the Ship is a good example of spiritual development by the restlessness of it. I think being spiritually restless is essential to spiritual development, and it should be at least a bit uncomfortable - no growing without growing pains.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
A quote from Thomas Merton that I was happy to share from a friend's facebook page: "If the you of five years ago doesn't consider the you of today a heretic, you are not growing spiritually."
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It's not exactly answering the question and possibly a bit simplistic - but I do think the Ship is a good example of spiritual development by the restlessness of it. I think being spiritually restless is essential to spiritual development, and it should be at least a bit uncomfortable - no growing without growing pains.
Good point. A "healthy dissatisfaction with the present" is an important incentive for change and growth. No matter how mature a Christian we are surely there is always room for more development and growth?
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Spiritual growth is a topic that often comes up in religio-spiritual circles.
What is spiritual growth?
Can you measure it? If so, how?
If you can't measure it, how do you know it is growth?
In the Christian context, I'd say at least a starting point for a discussion / definition of spiritual growth would reference the fruit of the Spirit as in Galatians 5:22-23. If someone is being more loving, joyful, peaceful etc. then they are growing spiritually. I think there's far more to it, but this seems a good place to start.
I would agree with that, and add that one is also more able to describe the condition of one's own soul the more one grows spiritually.
I have friends, good Christian friends, who exhibit many of the fruits of the spirit; but, while they can talk for a good thirty minutes about how things are at work, or how their car is running, or how their family is, etc. if you ask them how their soul is, the answer is either a confused look or a simple "fine."
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
irish_lord99: I have friends, good Christian friends, who exhibit many of the fruits of the spirit; but, while they can talk for a good thirty minutes about how things are at work, or how their car is running, or how their family is, etc. if you ask them how their soul is, the answer is either a confused look or a simple "fine."
I wouldn't know the answer to that one either.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
A quote from Thomas Merton that I was happy to share from a friend's facebook page: "If the you of five years ago doesn't consider the you of today a heretic, you are not growing spiritually."
GG
Does anybody know the source of this Merton quotation? I found this but it says it's paraphrased and doesn't give a source. None of the other links I've found on the net give a source either, and none seem to be older than a couple of months.
Even if it is an authentic Merton quotation it's a remarkably absurd thing to say. If you're always supposed to be a heretic to the you of five years ago you could just as easily be regressing as you could be progressing, or simply flip-flopping every five years, or running around in circles, or chasing the latest fad.
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I have friends, good Christian friends, who exhibit many of the fruits of the spirit; but, while they can talk for a good thirty minutes about how things are at work, or how their car is running, or how their family is, etc. if you ask them how their soul is, the answer is either a confused look or a simple "fine."
Yes, and I think this is something of a tragedy. We should be fluent (or at least becoming increasingly fluent!) in talking about our inner being, our emotions, our journey of faith. I wonder - could be way off beam here - if, on the whole, women would be able to answer that 'how is your soul' question more readily...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I have friends, good Christian friends, who exhibit many of the fruits of the spirit; but, while they can talk for a good thirty minutes about how things are at work, or how their car is running, or how their family is, etc. if you ask them how their soul is, the answer is either a confused look or a simple "fine."
Yes, and I think this is something of a tragedy. We should be fluent (or at least becoming increasingly fluent!) in talking about our inner being, our emotions, our journey of faith. I wonder - could be way off beam here - if, on the whole, women would be able to answer that 'how is your soul' question more readily...
Talking about the state of one's soul is not very British....
Re women, maybe, but the whole women = emotional and talkative thing is from men's talk being considered serious while women's conversations are considered emotional aka silly and frivolous. So I'm not sure that's a stereotype that's worth upholding.
Having been to various women's events in the church (which I am not massively comfortable with, not being anything like the vast majority of other women at these things - at least not in evangelical circles) women are socialised into a different role in many churches anyway. Women having fewer (or no) opportunities to lead church events and services means that they are better at doing casual talks, Bible studies etc, which IME makes for more effective discussion about the state of one's soul. But unless you're with nuns, this is mostly reserved for evangelicals with significant American influences (do any evangelicals now escape American influences?).
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
irish_lord99: I have friends, good Christian friends, who exhibit many of the fruits of the spirit; but, while they can talk for a good thirty minutes about how things are at work, or how their car is running, or how their family is, etc. if you ask them how their soul is, the answer is either a confused look or a simple "fine."
I wouldn't know the answer to that one either.
Bingo. Me neither.
The "state of ones soul" transcends both emotion and intellect IMV.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Struth Evensong where do you start with a poser like that? Great question my lovely.
Personally prefer to talk about 'maturity' rather than 'growth'. Mike Breen has a nifty model for this. Talking about how we respond to Christian teaching he says we relate to it in three successive ways To begin with its like a picture - we have a good gander to see what's in the frame; then we're like a mirror as we see ourselves in the light of it, then we're like a window - as we live it out, other people see the Christ behind the teaching revealed in our own lives.
How's that sound for a starter?
Would you say that people that are not Christlike have not grown spiritually then?
The model you suggest implies spiritual growth = Christlikeness.
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a theological scrapbook
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
irish_lord99: I have friends, good Christian friends, who exhibit many of the fruits of the spirit; but, while they can talk for a good thirty minutes about how things are at work, or how their car is running, or how their family is, etc. if you ask them how their soul is, the answer is either a confused look or a simple "fine."
I wouldn't know the answer to that one either.
If someone asked me how my soul was, my reply would be short, pithy and Anglo-Saxon. That is for me to know, and you to shut up about. Cue references to the sealed hermetic vessel, blah blah blah. Basically means that such stuff is not to be bandied about in the market-place.
I used to tell clients not to talk about their dreams to everybody; it's bad for the soul!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The model you suggest implies spiritual growth = Christlikeness.
Conformity to Christ; living by the Spirit (of Christ / God) and not by the flesh; letting God transform / renew us; exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit, not the fruit of the sinful nature - is there any argument over the proposal that spiritual growth = Christlikeness?
I fully acknowledge that what is Christlikeness in any given situation or circumstance may not be obvious, but I can't see how one can argue with the basic premise that spiritual growth is equivalent to a life of greater conformity to Christ...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Except that many spiritual people are not Christians! One of my oldest friends was a Sufi, who has unfortunately recently died; his spiritual development used to astound me, and was far ahead of most people that I know.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The model you suggest implies spiritual growth = Christlikeness.
Conformity to Christ; living by the Spirit (of Christ / God) and not by the flesh; letting God transform / renew us; exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit, not the fruit of the sinful nature - is there any argument over the proposal that spiritual growth = Christlikeness?
I fully acknowledge that what is Christlikeness in any given situation or circumstance may not be obvious, but I can't see how one can argue with the basic premise that spiritual growth is equivalent to a life of greater conformity to Christ...
Agreed.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Except that many spiritual people are not Christians! One of my oldest friends was a Sufi, who has unfortunately recently died; his spiritual development used to astound me, and was far ahead of most people that I know.
Aha, sorry - I was answering the question 'what is Christian spiritual growth?'. Which wasn't actually the question, so my bad.
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Women having fewer (or no) opportunities to lead church events and services means that they are better at doing casual talks, Bible studies etc, which IME makes for more effective discussion about the state of one's soul. But unless you're with nuns, this is mostly reserved for evangelicals with significant American influences (do any evangelicals now escape American influences?).
Hmm, that's interesting. I don't think it applies to my church (but you'd have to ask the women to be sure!) so I hadn't really considered it as an issue. I do agree, though, that events and activities other than main (i.e. typically Sunday) services are better for getting into the more personal / intimate discussions about how we're really getting on.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Except that many spiritual people are not Christians! One of my oldest friends was a Sufi, who has unfortunately recently died; his spiritual development used to astound me, and was far ahead of most people that I know.
On what basis did you judge his spiritual growth?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
If I was asked as to the state of my soul
I would talk about my Practice, Affiliations (church and theological) and Praxis.
I think our growth is neurological and chemical. It is to some degree measureable by "science" (as well as when people look at us and catch glimpses of something admirable).
It is developed by training. So everyone can "grow" from where they are. That said - like with music and art - some people are naturally gifted and their nature makes them want to take it further.
I have all my life felt my religious urge comes from "inside somewhere" and I have been pleased to read of the developments in Brain Science in the last 20 years or so which are trying to really quantify (or at least "image") this.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The model you suggest implies spiritual growth = Christlikeness.
Conformity to Christ; living by the Spirit (of Christ / God) and not by the flesh; letting God transform / renew us; exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit, not the fruit of the sinful nature - is there any argument over the proposal that spiritual growth = Christlikeness?
I fully acknowledge that what is Christlikeness in any given situation or circumstance may not be obvious, but I can't see how one can argue with the basic premise that spiritual growth is equivalent to a life of greater conformity to Christ...
Agreed.
Can either of you define Christlikeness besides the fruit of the spirit? Or are they sufficient?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Can either of you define Christlikeness besides the fruit of the spirit? Or are they sufficient?
Well, in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus explains how life will be when people are fully following his ways - we'll respond to insults with blessing and not cursing in return; we'll seek reconciliation; we won't look at people with the intention of lusting for them; we'll do good deeds regardless of whether anyone is watching. Someone who is increasingly living like this is growing in (Christian) spirituality, I'd say.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Except that many spiritual people are not Christians! One of my oldest friends was a Sufi, who has unfortunately recently died; his spiritual development used to astound me, and was far ahead of most people that I know.
On what basis did you judge his spiritual growth?
Well, his capacity for love, which exceeded anything I have ever met; his insights into religious and spiritual questions; his openness to life and others; and other stuff, which is private really, I mean private to him.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Cara
Shipmate
# 16966
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Posted
I've just re-read Herman Hesse's Siddartha, a beautiful portrayal of (slow, difficult) spiritual growth. Culminating in Siddartha's being able to see the unity of everything, and love as the be-all and end-all. Which gives him a deep wisdom, kindness, ability to listen, humility, etc.
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Pondering.
Posts: 898 | Registered: Feb 2012
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