Ship of Fools: Bishops - sign of unity?

Thread: Bishops - sign of unity? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Clotilde (# 17600) on :

I was reading the writings of a friend who was a much respected member of the clergy, and who died a while ago.

In one passage he writes:

quote:
There is a mischievous notion nowadays that the essence of the episcopal office is to provide a focal point of unity. I can understand this, but is it really ‘the essence’?

I wonder what shipmates think.

In the Church of England I have thought that bishops sacrifice their convictions, or at least their personal views, for the sake of preserving a rather lukewarm unity.

So I wonder if bishops should speak out their own views much more, while still being pastroally sensitive.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

...or, as a friend's mother once told a slightly stunned bishop
" I now understand why the human backside is the shape it is: so that bishops of the Church of England can sit on the fence with a foot in both camps."

In other words, we don't have bishops, we have curate's eggs!

I think she had a point.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

And in America, bishops of the Episcopal Church are frequently a focus of disunity. One has to separate the episcopal office, which viewed in its historical ecclesiological context, is a living and sacramental focus of unity, from the men (or women) who happen to occupy the office at any given point in time.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

What is a bishop for then? I asked this a few months ago, but didn't really get very clear answers.

I don't think it's so that they have a forum to express their personal views free from contradiction. I've a strong suspicion that most of us would be better for attaching less importance to our personal views than we tend to give them. If that's true of ordinary people, it's even more true of those who are responsible for leading the rest of us.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Care of the clergy?

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

When the bishop turns up at your church, eg. for a confirmation, special celebration, or dedication, everyone gets a sense that the wider church cares about them and that they haven't been forgotten, abandoned in some small corner of Christendom.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras has it correctly, I think. The unity of the church does not refer to some administrative arrangement or other, but is a sacramental unity, which makes it a thing of God, not a thing of man.

But at the "Thing of Man" level, they are notoriously flaky and power-prone. Pray for them.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

posted by Chorister

quote:
When the bishop turns up at your church ...

Are you serious?

Confirmations? Our diocese is wedded to the "Supermarket Sweep" type of confirmation (candidates all sit in aisle seat, bishop goes down aisle confirming), notwithstanding it is extremely unpopular and we have sufficient bishops (diocesa, suffragan and assistant) for confirmations to be in parishes.

So, off we traipse to the cathedral for a dire service with (in the case of our deanery) worship songs when ALL bar one of the churches in the deanery are trad and don't sing them; no choir, usually a relief organist wearing boxing gloves.

Dreadful.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Chorister

quote:
When the bishop turns up at your church ...

Are you serious?

Confirmations? Our diocese is wedded to the "Supermarket Sweep" type of confirmation (candidates all sit in aisle seat, bishop goes down aisle confirming), notwithstanding it is extremely unpopular and we have sufficient bishops (diocesa, suffragan and assistant) for confirmations to be in parishes.

So, off we traipse to the cathedral for a dire service with (in the case of our deanery) worship songs when ALL bar one of the churches in the deanery are trad and don't sing them; no choir, usually a relief organist wearing boxing gloves.

Dreadful.

That sounds awful - I've never been to a confirmation outside of a parish church setting. Admittedly at two of them, there were worship songs but there were hymns too - the churches in question are evangelical though, so it was appropriate in the context. However, I have also witnessed a confirmation in my own church which was all New English Hymnal (so no different from our regular services) and our organist is excellent. And we never have a service without a choir. We are AffCath.

All the confirmations I have been to have been in fairly small dioceses though....

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Chorister

quote:
When the bishop turns up at your church ...

Are you serious?

Confirmations? Our diocese is wedded to the "Supermarket Sweep" type of confirmation (candidates all sit in aisle seat, bishop goes down aisle confirming), notwithstanding it is extremely unpopular and we have sufficient bishops (diocesa, suffragan and assistant) for confirmations to be in parishes.

Oh my goodness. In this TEC diocese, which is not exactly a small one, it can be expected that one will have a visit by either a suffragan bishop or the ordinary once a year, and they tend to rotate every other year. In this case, I'd say that the bishops very much serve as a visible and present reminder of unity (except for those parishes which disagree with the bishops!)

In the Catholic diocese to the south of me, not only will the Catholic bishop show up at your parish to preside at confirmations, but he will also show up at your family's after party at their home or banquet hall (and make the rounds from one party to another). This actually happened to a friend of mine. Thankfully that bishop fits right in at a good ol-fashioned Midwestern backyard barbecue.

[ 10. November 2013, 00:15: Message edited by: Olaf ]

Posted by dv (# 15714) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Chorister

quote:
When the bishop turns up at your church ...

Are you serious?

Confirmations? Our diocese is wedded to the "Supermarket Sweep" type of confirmation (candidates all sit in aisle seat, bishop goes down aisle confirming), notwithstanding it is extremely unpopular and we have sufficient bishops (diocesa, suffragan and assistant) for confirmations to be in parishes.

So, off we traipse to the cathedral for a dire service with (in the case of our deanery) worship songs when ALL bar one of the churches in the deanery are trad and don't sing them; no choir, usually a relief organist wearing boxing gloves.

Dreadful.

Horrified that they're still doing that. Sounds exactly like the kind of 1970s conveyor-belt confirmation service that killed the Anglican church for me. Always had been a holy rollin' child but didn't revisit for 25 years after that huge disappointment. The confirmation classes and the huge build up pointed to a Significant Spiritual Event ... and then the adults botched it.

If only these bishops and dioceses had enough awareness to realize what they're spoiling for those kids. It is kind of anti-mission: the most spiritual and potentially committed kids spot the fakery and look for something more meaningful and authentic elsewhere.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dv:

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Chorister

quote:
When the bishop turns up at your church ...

Are you serious?

Confirmations? Our diocese is wedded to the "Supermarket Sweep" type of confirmation (candidates all sit in aisle seat, bishop goes down aisle confirming), notwithstanding it is extremely unpopular and we have sufficient bishops (diocesa, suffragan and assistant) for confirmations to be in parishes.

So, off we traipse to the cathedral for a dire service with (in the case of our deanery) worship songs when ALL bar one of the churches in the deanery are trad and don't sing them; no choir, usually a relief organist wearing boxing gloves.

Dreadful.
Horrified that they're still doing that. Sounds exactly like the kind of 1970s conveyor-belt confirmation service that killed the Anglican church for me. Always had been a holy rollin' child but didn't revisit for 25 years after that huge disappointment. The confirmation classes and the huge build up pointed to a Significant Spiritual Event ... and then the adults botched it.

If only these bishops and dioceses had enough awareness to realize what they're spoiling for those kids. It is kind of anti-mission: the most spiritual and potentially committed kids spot the fakery and look for something more meaningful and authentic elsewhere.

IME most candidates for confirmation now are adults, not children. What L'Organist describes is still awful but I'm not sure putting children off church has much to do with it anymore.

Plus, like I said above, I have never experienced a confirmation outside of a parish church. Some have been evangelical with worship songs, but only because it reflected the church and the candidates themselves. At my own church they are thoroughly traditional.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

I've always thought the role of a Bishop was mainly pastoral?
Perhaps I am wrong but if I am correct then shouldn't all other functions flow from that pastoral care.....which would mean sensitive handling of confirmations reflecting the praxis of the churches involved. As regards unity, if the role starts from a pastoral base then all discussions and decisions will reflect a pastoral concern for all involved which is a huge challenge.
When my daughter in NZ who is married to a parish priest had the funeral of their stillborn son, the Bishop attended the whole thing, including the burial and refreshments afterwards. My husband thanked him for taking the time to do this: he replied that the pastoral care of his flock was more important than any and all meetings.
Things like that contribute hugely to unity.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

What Mrs Beaky said. A bishop should do what her son's bishop did - after all, a parish priest is the bishop's deputy - and I don't know any here who would not have done that.

But a bishop's role is more than pastoring to his diocese. The bishop is the link between the diocese and the wider church. Much as the Orthodoxen have it, I am in communion with you, because our bishops are in communion with each other.

In recent years, the communion between us in Sydney (I am talking of the Anglican Church here) and the wider church has been impaired, but fortunately not completely ruptured. The links have been indirect, but the overall communion has been maintained.

Posted by Clotilde (# 17600) on :

I agree that one of the bishop's primary functions is to be pastoral.

I also feel it is important for a bishop to have the freedom to say what they think and to have the courage to do so.

Pastoral care doesn't always mean being nice and fluffy [Smile]

.............................................

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

L'Organist seems to have hit a particularly bad example. Recently our Diocesan and our Suffragan retired within only a few weeks of each other. We are in a large Diocese, yet felt we had got to know them well over their ministry. They will both be missed.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
L'Organist seems to have hit a particularly bad example. Recently our Diocesan and our Suffragan retired within only a few weeks of each other. We are in a large Diocese, yet felt we had got to know them well over their ministry. They will both be missed.

Even when I lived in East Sussex, +Benn was well-known to our church and was missed very much on his retirement (at least by con-evos...!). I may have serious issues with his theology but he certainly wasn't distant.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Clotilde:
I agree that one of the bishop's primary functions is to be pastoral.

I also feel it is important for a bishop to have the freedom to say what they think and to have the courage to do so.

Pastoral care doesn't always mean being nice and fluffy

I agree. Leadership can require a person to say and do things that some others will dislike, be angry about, even conspire against. However, there's a big difference between using one's position to give vent to one's own opinions, as though being true to them is the most important thing on earth, and discerning the will of God and then sweating one's guts out to take people there.

It's also a mark of good leadership, particularly in an organisation largely depending on volunteers, to try and take people with you, by the calibre of what you say and the quality of your life, rather than just saying 'I'm da bishop; you do as I say'.

In my experience, those who say bishops and other people with public profiles should be outspoken and controversial, are usually saying it with an unspoken coda 'as long as this only applies to the ones who think like me'.

David Jenkins aroused strong opinions for and against in the church nationally. Some deplored his every utterance. Some admired the fact that he voiced their doubts and criticised politicians.

Let me ask a question. I don't know the answer to this, and I've got to be careful because he is alive and can be defamed. It's something that underneath all the controversy, nobody ever seemed to regard as relevant. It's this, 'If you lived in, say, Consett or Sunderland, was he a good bishop?'

If the answer is 'yes', that outweighs virtually everything else. If the answer is 'no, we never saw him', or 'he was prickly and difficult', however a person performs nationally, is as sounding brass or tinkling cymbal.

As I said, I've no idea. I've never lived in Consett or Sunderland.

Let me ask another question. If you think it's great that David Jenkins was outspoken, do you also think it's great that Graham Dow said that floods in the UK might be divine retribution for the moral degradation of modern society? It seems to me, that if one admires the first, one must also admire the second.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
But a bishop's role is more than pastoring to his diocese. The bishop is the link between the diocese and the wider church. Much as the Orthodoxen have it, I am in communion with you, because our bishops are in communion with each other.

Is there any reason we need the Bishops in order to be in communion with one another? Can we not just say "I am in communion with you"?

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

Of course you can say that, Marvin. It's simply that there are two different understandings of communion at work here. The other is as Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras pointed out earlier, the sacramental unity of communion.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Chorister

quote:
When the bishop turns up at your church ...

Are you serious?

Confirmations? Our diocese is wedded to the "Supermarket Sweep" type of confirmation (candidates all sit in aisle seat, bishop goes down aisle confirming), notwithstanding it is extremely unpopular and we have sufficient bishops (diocesa, suffragan and assistant) for confirmations to be in parishes.
Oh my goodness. In this TEC diocese, which is not exactly a small one, it can be expected that one will have a visit by either a suffragan bishop or the ordinary once a year, and they tend to rotate every other year. In this case, I'd say that the bishops very much serve as a visible and present reminder of unity (except for those parishes which disagree with the bishops!)

In the Catholic diocese to the south of me, not only will the Catholic bishop show up at your parish to preside at confirmations, but he will also show up at your family's after party at their home or banquet hall (and make the rounds from one party to another). This actually happened to a friend of mine. Thankfully that bishop fits right in at a good ol-fashioned Midwestern backyard barbecue.

IME, there is a great variation in England in how bishops interact with the parishes.

I have known one bishop who made it his practice to go to EVERY parish in the diocese at least once in a two year period - even if his visit was just for 15 minutes. He was loved by people who disagreed with him on almost everything! They may have thought that he had some mad ideas, but they respected him. Sadly, he was replaced by a bishop who quickly made it clear that he was only interested in visiting "successful" parishes. After a few years, most of the parishes in the diocese had never seen him, but his favoured parishes were graced with his presence on a regular basis.

In my current diocese, the bishops are (as far as I can tell) genuine and caring. But it is still the case that they only come to parishes for special occasions or when specifically invited well in advance.

If I had one word of advice for aspiring bishops, it would be this - take control of your diary, so that you can visit ALL your parishes on a regular basis. Get out there and be seen. It may take a little time, but the rewards will be worth the effort. You will find that people in the parishes (remember - the ones who ultimately pay for you) become more trusting and less suspicious. They will be more likely to engage with the diocesan vision and structures, rather than seeing the diocese as "something out there" that simply eats money.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Enoch:

quote:
David Jenkins aroused strong opinions for and against in the church nationally. Some deplored his every utterance. Some admired the fact that he voiced their doubts and criticised politicians.

Let me ask a question. I don't know the answer to this, and I've got to be careful because he is alive and can be defamed. It's something that underneath all the controversy, nobody ever seemed to regard as relevant. It's this, 'If you lived in, say, Consett or Sunderland, was he a good bishop?'

I have never lived in Consett or Sunderland, but I did meet David Jenkins once because he was invited to speak to our university chaplaincy just after the 'conjuring trick with bones' affair.

He wasn't completely successful in convincing us that he'd been misquoted (we still believed in truth in journalism then, how naïve is that), but we were favourably impressed by the man himself; a good speaker who engaged in respectful debate with us afterwards.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

Years ago in New Hampshire we had a bishop who would spend an entire two days at each church. (The diocese was small enough that he could do this with each church every year.)

On Saturday mornings, he would meet with the vestry; on Saturday afternoon he would meet with the confirmands and their parents; in the evening, we had a party. I can remember that on one occasion it was a cookout, and on another it was a potluck followed by a square dance.

Our diocese has a new bishop. I have not met him yet, but what I hear of him is good.

Moo

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Years ago in New Hampshire we had a bishop who would spend an entire two days at each church. (The diocese was small enough that he could do this with each church every year.)

Moo

true for when you have a diocese that has nearly 300 churches in it....

Posted by Clotilde (# 17600) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Enoch:
quote:
David Jenkins aroused strong opinions for and against in the church nationally. Some deplored his every utterance. Some admired the fact that he voiced their doubts and criticised politicians.

Let me ask a question. I don't know the answer to this, and I've got to be careful because he is alive and can be defamed. It's something that underneath all the controversy, nobody ever seemed to regard as relevant. It's this, 'If you lived in, say, Consett or Sunderland, was he a good bishop?'
I have never lived in Consett or Sunderland, but I did meet David Jenkins once because he was invited to speak to our university chaplaincy just after the 'conjuring trick with bones' affair.

He wasn't completely successful in convincing us that he'd been misquoted (we still believed in truth in journalism then, how naïve is that), but we were favourably impressed by the man himself; a good speaker who engaged in respectful debate with us afterwards.

A good point. A bishop I think is entitled to speak out and challenge be it on faith, politics or whatever. However, at heart I hope a bishop is pastoral and caring.

What I fear is an episcopacy of grey men (or men and women for that matter). Who end rather as ecclesiastical senior administrators who smile a lot!

[Advertising link removed]

[ 15. November 2013, 20:12: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Is there any reason we need the Bishops in order to be in communion with one another? Can we not just say "I am in communion with you"?

We can certainly say that, and we do. But the chances of our kneeling with each other are fairly remote. The bishops can. Of course, the recently retired archbishop here was rather picky about that and would not receive with ++Rowan, for only one example. He would, however, with + Stuart Canberra/Goulburn, at least before + Stuart consecrated a woman as assistant. Through that and similar links, we were in communion with the rest of the world.

I doubt that ++ Glenn will take the same approach. We shall have to wait and see.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

hosting/

Clotilde, advertising within the body of a post is not allowed on the Ship (see our Commandment 9). At most, you could try a discreet ad in your signature space.

Use the "my profile" page to edit your signature; you can use the UBB practice thread in the Styx to make sure it comes out right. Thanks!

/hosting

Edited to add: as you now seem to have worked out.

[ 15. November 2013, 20:21: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Clotilde (# 17600) on :

(Apologies, all, I think I have got how to do it. I noticed some other posters did and hadn't picked up it was through the signature. Thank you for pointing me to this, hopefully, as a test this post will get it right!)

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by Clotilde
What I fear is an episcopacy of grey men (or men and women for that matter). Who end rather as ecclesiastical senior administrators who smile a lot!

Its obvious you don't watch BBC Parliament and so haven't seen the Bench of Bishops.

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