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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Remembrance
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I found myself deeply troubled as well as deeply moved by the BBC coverage of the Royal British Legion at the Albert Hall tonight.
Troubled at the state church sanction, blessing of militarism. Of war in the name of justice and freedom and ... peace. What disturbed me most was the literalization implicit in 'fight the good fight' and laying down your comfort, reward, life for your comrades in ARMS.
Which until last year I regarded as about the most noble sacrifice possible. But now I regard NOT doing so as the yet higher sacrifice.
I wonder what will happen tomorrow when I where my white poppy in front of what seems to be the whole village at church? I've had a couple of pleasant enquiries so far.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I found myself deeply troubled as well as deeply moved by the BBC coverage of the Royal British Legion at the Albert Hall tonight.
You are not alone - this is an extraordinarily powerful piece of writing, from an ex-soldier, who is, like you, increasingly queasy.
The Torlets' school was the nominated 'remembrance' school for the British Legion. Various parts of the armed forces came to explain to the children what they do - lots of physical exercise and disarming land mines, it seems, and little of the bayoneting and shooting and bombing. Fortunately, our antidote is Mrs Tor, who was in the army, and various relatives who, while now dead, were witness to some of the war's most bloody moments, including liberating a concentration camp.
Now let me see your war face.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Doc Tor, thank you for the link to that moving article (I am left of the Guardian so don't usually read it).
I am a pacifist; however, the remembrance industry is as poor at honouring soldiers as it is at honouring those brave enough to go with their consciences and oppose war. Both are victims of the sin of war. The Established Church's lapse into civic religion and endorsement of militarism is appalling and an insult to Christ and His Kingdom of Peace, although other churches are not blameless either (particularly the Salvation Army). Tomorrow (well, today) I shall attend the local Quaker Meeting for Worship in thanks for their faithful witness to peace.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
This is such a complicated arena.
I am the daughter of an army officer: my dad fought in WW2 and in Korea and his father fought in WW1. He had to kill people.
My American mother's brother was killed in Korea. I grew up being told that sometimes war is necessary but only sometimes. On one occasion my father disobeyed orders (from very high up) as he believed what he had been told to do was morally wrong.He risked his own life in doing this but he was immovable on the point and he saved many other lives with this choice.
In his retirement years, he went into local schools to tell the children about the reality of war, not to glorify it but to urge them to do all they could to work for peace.
But he still maintained that sometimes war was necessary but only after all other methods of remedy had been exhausted. He abhorred the hijacking of remembrance of his fallen comrades to serve political agendas.
Now I work for peace in a conflict area in Kenya. These week more innocent people were brutally killed, wonderful people who were pacifist like me. Had I been there, with the means to save them, would I have stood and watched them die or would I too have taken up arms?
As I said, it's complicated
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
This happens at this time every year on the Ship.
Some heroic Athanasius contra mundum announces that they are going to courageously fly in the face of mass militaristic hysteria on the part of hoi polloi and the media and refuse, even under the direst persecution, to wear a red poppy.
It is, of course possible to wear a poppy in simple remembrance of all who served and suffered in past conflicts, without either glorifying war in general or voicing an opinion about any current hostilities, but that would be pretty boring.
At this time of the year, too, the usual suspects (Guardian in the UK, The Age and the ABC here in Australia) dig out an ex-service person who questions war in general or some war in particular.
They have won the right to their opinion by (unlike almost all the rest of us) having participated in combat, but it can be asked whether their views are representative of most ex-service people.
I base my conviction that war is sometimes the lesser of two evils (which is not the same as just war theory, because it is arguable that no war is unambiguously just) on, amongst other things, the opinion of other ex-service people who also served in combat but did not become pacifist, such as my father who fought in WWII, and C.S. Lewis who saw action on the Western Front and wrote Why I Am Not A Pacifist – they have won the right to their opinion, too.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
This happens at this time every year on the Ship.
Some heroic Athanasius contra mundum announces that they are going to courageously fly in the face of mass militaristic hysteria on the part of hoi polloi and the media and refuse, even under the direst persecution, to wear a red poppy.
It is, of course possible to wear a poppy in simple remembrance of all who served and suffered in past conflicts, without either glorifying war in general or voicing an opinion about any current hostilities, but that would be pretty boring.
At this time of the year, too, the usual suspects (Guardian in the UK, The Age and the ABC here in Australia) dig out an ex-service person who questions war in general or some war in particular.
They have won the right to their opinion by (unlike almost all the rest of us) having participated in combat, but it can be asked whether their views are representative of most ex-service people.
I base my conviction that war is sometimes the lesser of two evils (which is not the same as just war theory, because it is arguable that no war is unambiguously just) on, amongst other things, the opinion of other ex-service people who also served in combat but did not become pacifist, such as my father who fought in WWII, and C.S. Lewis who saw action on the Western Front and wrote Why I Am Not A Pacifist – they have won the right to their opinion, too.
It's not about pacifism v non-pacifism. It's about what the red poppy was about, and what it's about now. They are two different things. I have zero issue remembering those who have died while serving in the Armed Forces. I have enormous issues with the blind acceptance of war that comes with Remembrance Sunday nowadays (which was never the original intention), the commercialisation of death (not all commemorative items are charity ones) and above all the unspoken obligation to wear a poppy, otherwise you're being disrespectful of the war dead. It's not presented as a choice anymore, but a duty, which is not right. People have every right to wear a poppy if they want to do so, the BBC and others do not have the right to enforce their wear (albeit unspokenly). It seems ironic that we are constantly told that those we remember died to protect our freedoms, yet we are not given the freedom to freely choose to wear a poppy or not.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Also - plenty of conscientious objectors died in wartime too, yet are never publicly honoured despite the very real persecution they endured.If that isn't glorification of combat, rather than remembering all the war dead (and many COs served in non-combat roles), I don't know what is. Strange how there isn't a national remembrance event for May 15th (International Conscientious Objectors Day).....
Why do officers who sent boys to their deaths in WWI get honoured, and not the Friends Ambulance Service?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Well said, Jade Constable!
Also tangent- from the timings of your various posts it looks like you were up all night? Insomnia is horrible, sorry- end tangent
Still,I suppose its given you plenty of time to craft thought provoking posts which are always respectful of other people's opinions too....
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Also - plenty of conscientious objectors died in wartime too, yet are never publicly honoured despite the very real persecution they endured.If that isn't glorification of combat, rather than remembering all the war dead (and many COs served in non-combat roles), I don't know what is. Strange how there isn't a national remembrance event for May 15th (International Conscientious Objectors Day).....
Why do officers who sent boys to their deaths in WWI get honoured, and not the Friends Ambulance Service?
My father-in-law was a conscientious objector and served in an ambulance unit.
I have no less respect for him than for my father.
No-one is making you wear a poppy, and vast numbers don't.
In our church of 200-300 members, I was one of fewer than half a dozen who wore one this morning.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The Established Church's lapse into civic religion and endorsement of militarism is appalling and an insult to Christ and His Kingdom of Peace, although other churches are not blameless either (particularly the Salvation Army).
I'm sorry?
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
What's that about then? What have we done now?
[ 10. November 2013, 07:36: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Sorry for not making it clear, I'll be wearing a red one as well. It's just that the white trumps the red. And no MrsBeaky. It's not difficult at all, it's just ... difficult.
Of the military men I have known, the most courageous was my school chemistry teacher, a WW2 pacifist ... and bomb disposal expert.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
No-one is making you wear a poppy, and vast numbers don't.
In our church of 200-300 members, I was one of fewer than half a dozen who wore one this morning.
At my church there will be about 50 this morning and if anyone turns up without a poppy they will be handed one on the assumption that they forgot.
I wear a poppy with sorrow, not pride. I object to the RBL slogan "wear your poppy with pride". The service men and women are victims of war, just as much as the civilian victims. But they died because their leaders asked them to, not just because they got in the way. We should remember them. We should grieve for them. But national pride is what got them killed.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) @ MrsBeaky
I'm also uncomfortable with the unspoken (sometimes spoken!) pressure to wear a poppy and, in fact, choose not to. Partly it's simple stubbornness; I don't want to do something just because most other people are. But I'm also deeply ambivalent about war per se, and in particular about the glorification of war and celebration of patriotism that can sometimes follow on the coat-tails of remembrance.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What's that about then? What have we done now?
You have the word "army" in your name.
Therefore you are irredeemably militaristic and in favour of war.
There's no point arguing. If you weren't all jingoistic gun nuts, you wouldn't call yourselves an army. QED.
Just like the fact that Remembrance Sunday is jingoistic, nationalist, militaristic and glorifies war. Never mind that every single Remembrance Service I've ever been to has described war as a horrible outrage and contained prayers for and commitment to peace. Nothing will ever convince some people that we're not secretly tucking copies of Guns and Ammo into our orders of service and salivating over the prospect of war, more war.
Evidence and argument to the contrary is presented, and ignored, every year on the ship. It never does any good. The anti-Remembrancers enjoy their annual self-congratulatory whinge too much.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
All I can say is thank God that you are alive today and speaking English. Especially if you are Jewish, homosexual, disabled, a Traveller, a Jehovah's Witness, dark-haired or even Christian!
Had Hitler managed to invade and conquer Britain you can be sure that none of the above would have lasted very long under the Nazi government.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What's that about then? What have we done now?
You have the word "army" in your name.
Therefore you are irredeemably militaristic and in favour of war.
There's no point arguing. If you weren't all jingoistic gun nuts, you wouldn't call yourselves an army. QED.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What's that about then? What have we done now?
You have the word "army" in your name.
Therefore you are irredeemably militaristic and in favour of war.
There's no point arguing. If you weren't all jingoistic gun nuts, you wouldn't call yourselves an army. QED.
Just like the fact that Remembrance Sunday is jingoistic, nationalist, militaristic and glorifies war. Never mind that every single Remembrance Service I've ever been to has described war as a horrible outrage and contained prayers for and commitment to peace. Nothing will ever convince some people that we're not secretly tucking copies of Guns and Ammo into our orders of service and salivating over the prospect of war, more war.
Evidence and argument to the contrary is presented, and ignored, every year on the ship. It never does any good. The anti-Remembrancers enjoy their annual self-congratulatory whinge too much.
Actually, I think I have realised that this post may be slightly sarcastic.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Why would Hitler have invaded and conquered Britain?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Sorry for not making it clear, I'll be wearing a red one as well.
Then you have my admiration. A good freind, who is ex-military, does exactly the same.
As for the Festival of remembrance last night, I saw nothing that glorified war.
War is always, always a bad thing. A very bad thing. But occasionally there comes a time when all other avenues have been exhausted when military action becomes the least bad of all the alternatives. It is only then that war can be justified.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm sensitized to it now balaam, paranoid one could say I'm sure, but believe me, it was there. Tastefully, understatedly, most movingly done, most Britishly done. But there. The state's pet church did not represent its countercultural founder. Imagine, eh?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I'm not sure that 'anti-Remembrancers' are self-congratulatory, are they? I am very conscious of the debt owed to previous generations - both my grandfathers fought in WWI, and lost brothers. Both my parents were in the army in WWII, and my dad was involved in operation Mulberry.
So I don't denigrate what they did at all. But I don't like wearing a poppy for various reasons, some of them rather private. One reason is that both grandads refused to wear them, and were bitter about their experience. So I honour them in my own way.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Kaplan:
quote:
This happens at this time every year on the Ship.
Some heroic Athanasius contra mundum announces that they are going to courageously fly in the face of mass militaristic hysteria on the part of hoi polloi and the media and refuse, even under the direst persecution, to wear a red poppy.
....and this happens every year on this ship too. Anyone expressing any kind of qualm about the poppy or remembrance services in church is made to face up to their perceived lack of integrity, their hysterical mania at not supporting 'our troops' fighting for 'our freedom' and informed that they are disrespecting the memory of the war dead. Perhaps, just perhaps, you might be able to get beyond a knee jerk reaction to see the genuine qualms of others without emotively manipulative appeals of perceived intent to actually see what is being said - namely that most people want to remember with respect and maintain the dignity of those who died in the waste of war.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Why would Hitler have invaded and conquered Britain?
Because he could Martin , because he could -- The mantra of all serial killers.
I was surprised to learn this morning that the white poppy was first worn in 1933 .
In Britain , if any decade could be an example of the complex relationship between the desire for peace and the necessity to fight, then the 30s was it .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Why would Hitler have invaded and conquered Britain?
It was what he wanted to do. That was why Oxford was never bombed: he wanted it to be his new capital after he'd flattened London and marched in.
I never wear a poppy. It's too visible a reminder of those days of both wars. The First World War shattered my father's family, the Second was easier but either way, to hold a poppy in my hands is for me to hold a visible symbol of part of both conflicts and all the memories that go with it. It's not something I can do lightly. I'm glad that other people do it, though.
It is for me about remembrance because also, there will be young widows for whom it has a particular significance (Falklands, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc). I find it deeply depressing that the urge to fight seems to be ingrained in human nature. But there it is. I don't see the poppy as glorifying war at all: it's a sign of that time of year when, as with November generally, you remember those who have gone before, in some cases, far too young and suddenly.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Kaplan, the queasiness about Remembrance Day is nothing new, and I suspect it's partly to do with the changing nature of warfare. WWI and WWII involved most of the country in the War Effort, in some way or another, including those who served as conscientious objectors and those who died as civilians. Other conflicts have not been so universal.
I grew up with an annual dispute between my grandfather who served in WWI, was deafened on the Somme working alongside the big guns, and my father, who served in Korea; that war whose veterans are only marching in the Cenotaph Parade for the first time this year on the 50th Anniversary of the end of that war. My grandfather polished up his medals and stood proudly next to the war memorial. My father did not. I only found out he had medals from this annual row. And from talking to a flatmate later, whose father had also served in Korea, that veteran did not talk about his experiences either without drink taken. Some wars are harder to remember than others.
I have to march with the Guides today, wearing a poppy, which I only bought for that purpose. And I'm reluctant. I feel really squeamish how this has moved from the service I willingly attended as a child where veterans and others remembered, which when attending with people who served was a poignant reminder, to what we have now - a huge wreath laying ceremony from the uniformed groups, schools, civic groups - Uncle Tom Cobley and all, most of whom are not involved, none of whom remember.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Why would he have flattened London?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And due to my inoculation by the Son of Man I heard it again in today's service, from the mouth of his priest.
It's not what He would have said.
Interestingly I very much doubt I'd hear it in a British Roman Catholic Church.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Hitler tried to flatten London and other key cities in order to browbeat the UK into submission, having lost patience with the initial invasion timetable due to Churchill's stubborn resistance .
The sea-borne invasion by Germany would probably have come in the Autumn of 1940 or early 41 had the Luftwaffe persisted and successfully knocked out the RAF .
Respect to "The Few"
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Why did he have to browbeat the British in to submission?
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Love wins
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Why did he have to browbeat the British in to submission?
Because they were not going to call a truce any time soon or give in to the Nazis.
Hitler was determined to bring Britain to its knees. Flattening London would have been (from his point of view) a good symbolic defeat. Hence the Battle of Britain and the Blitz. You might find what Wikipedia has to say on Operation Sea Lion interesting.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Why weren't they going to call a truce soon or give in to the Nazis?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I wear both a white and a red poppy.
Our Remembrance service at Church went really well.
It was not a celebration of power - it was a reminder that God's power is the Power of Love.
We had the carol 'It came upon a midnight clear' which resonated really well.
But with the woes of sin and strife
The world has suffered long;
Beneath the angel-strain have rolled
Two thousand years of wrong;
And man, at war with man, hears not
The love-song which they bring.
O hush the noise, ye men of strife,
And hear the angels sing!
The preacher reflected on remembering in order to learn from the past, remembering in order to forgive not forget and remembering the words of Scripture. That men “would beat their swords into ploughshares, their spears into pruning hooks and study war no more” - peace as the consequence of Worship.
The whole service was very well received indeed.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Britain was an 'irritation' to Nazi Germany , as it had been to various military empires previously .
And as was the case in the past , Hitler's tyranny was kept out by a wing and a prayer coupled with extreme good fortune .
<cross posted with Boogie>
[ 10. November 2013, 12:35: Message edited by: rolyn ]
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Why did he have to browbeat the British in to submission?
I'll go with: Because Churchill was going to go down fighting... (ask those French ship Captains)
Please not only feel but BE free to call it a 'sin', from your protected pulpit. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Boogie: Your Church sang "It came upon a midnight clear".
I would have liked my congregations to sing Wesley's " All glory to God in the sky and peace upon earth be restored". ( But we are few and it is not well known!)
It contains the words
"Come then to thy servants again
who long thy appearing to know;
Thy quiet and peaceable reign
In mercy establish below;
All sorrow before thee shall fly,
And anger and hatred be o'er,
And envy and malice shall die,
And discord afflict us no more".
[ 10. November 2013, 13:02: Message edited by: shamwari ]
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
We had our Remembrance service this morning, suitably timed so that we could keep the 2 minute silence.
The names of the dead from the village were read out for the two World Wars, for Korea, for the Falklands, for Northern Ireland and from Afghanistan.
Not sure why but there seems to be a very strong link between living in the village and the military, so we have people still in the forces, some from the reserve and lots of ex-service at Church.
This year the roll of honour was read by the nephew of one of the people on it - a WAAF who died when the air station she was serving at was bombed.
We remembered the millions of civilians of both sides who died, as well as those who perished in concentration camps - some of these last by name as relatives of one of the regular worshippers, which is why among the prayers we had a translation of the mourners Kaddish.
I didn't see a single person not wearing a poppy. People wore them to mark Remembrance but also to support the charitable work of the Royal British Legion.
There was no "glorifying" of war. There were many there who had fought and knew that armed conflict should be the response of last resort, not the first; but equally who were only too aware that sometimes the taking up of arms is the least bad option.
If you feel this country would have benefited from being taken over by a madman who sought to exterminate the Jews, gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses and homosexuals of Europe, who made it deliberate policy that all Russian prisoners of war should be starved then that is your prerogative. But please don't presume that those of us who disagree with you are not entitled to mark the sacrifices of those who died so that we did not end up as an ethnically cleansed client province of the thousand year Reich.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
moron
Rather than being snide about Churchill you should be grateful that he was there to be cussed and face down Nazi Germany. Yes, the French fleet was sunk but that was to stop it falling into the hands of the Kriegsmarine.
If you're looking for a scapegoat among the wartime leaders you could do worse than opt for FDR - he who decided that Churchill was such a dangerous man that it was preferable for half Europe to be given to Stalin on a plate: the effects of FDR's hubris and wrong-headedness are still evident from the Balkans to the Baltic.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Also - plenty of conscientious objectors died in wartime too, yet are never publicly honoured despite the very real persecution they endured.If that isn't glorification of combat, rather than remembering all the war dead (and many COs served in non-combat roles), I don't know what is. Strange how there isn't a national remembrance event for May 15th (International Conscientious Objectors Day).....
Why do officers who sent boys to their deaths in WWI get honoured, and not the Friends Ambulance Service?
My father-in-law was a conscientious objector and served in an ambulance unit.
I have no less respect for him than for my father.
No-one is making you wear a poppy, and vast numbers don't.
In our church of 200-300 members, I was one of fewer than half a dozen who wore one this morning.
Missing the point. There is no public remembrance/honour for COs.
Also, there is definitely an unspoken push to wear a poppy. I don't know what church you belong to, but certainly in town today I could count the people without poppies on my hands - including myself. It may not be legally required but there is forceful social pressure.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The Established Church's lapse into civic religion and endorsement of militarism is appalling and an insult to Christ and His Kingdom of Peace, although other churches are not blameless either (particularly the Salvation Army).
I'm sorry?
What's that about then? What have we done now?
....being called an army, with military ranks and other names? It's not criticism of the SA in terms of theology, but of the way churches and the military have become intertwined. Most mainstream churches do it to some extent, but the SA was the one who does it most obviously, aside from the CoE (since they have official presence on Remembrance Day in a way other churches don't). Sorry for not explaining very well (as MrsBeaky says, insomnia), and believe me I criticise my own denomination for it far more.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What's that about then? What have we done now?
You have the word "army" in your name.
Therefore you are irredeemably militaristic and in favour of war.
There's no point arguing. If you weren't all jingoistic gun nuts, you wouldn't call yourselves an army. QED.
Just like the fact that Remembrance Sunday is jingoistic, nationalist, militaristic and glorifies war. Never mind that every single Remembrance Service I've ever been to has described war as a horrible outrage and contained prayers for and commitment to peace. Nothing will ever convince some people that we're not secretly tucking copies of Guns and Ammo into our orders of service and salivating over the prospect of war, more war.
Evidence and argument to the contrary is presented, and ignored, every year on the ship. It never does any good. The anti-Remembrancers enjoy their annual self-congratulatory whinge too much.
I can only speak for myself, but I am not anti-Remembrance. I am opposed to the modern military-glorifying Remembrance, which bears no resemblance to the original aim of it. 'Wear your poppy with pride' speaks for itself - no, we shouldn't be proud that people killed other people because their governments told them to do so. And Remembrance has become very nationalistic and nationalism is something for Christians to avoid - are we not all God's creation, regardless of country of origin? Why do we only value those who died 'to protect our country'? Why not all who died?
It would perhaps help if COs and those who died on the 'enemy' sides were honoured enough.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
All I can say is thank God that you are alive today and speaking English. Especially if you are Jewish, homosexual, disabled, a Traveller, a Jehovah's Witness, dark-haired or even Christian!
Had Hitler managed to invade and conquer Britain you can be sure that none of the above would have lasted very long under the Nazi government.
This isn't about pacifism v non-pacifism. Did you actually read the article?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
moron
Rather than being snide about Churchill you should be grateful that he was there to be cussed and face down Nazi Germany. Yes, the French fleet was sunk but that was to stop it falling into the hands of the Kriegsmarine.
If you're looking for a scapegoat among the wartime leaders you could do worse than opt for FDR - he who decided that Churchill was such a dangerous man that it was preferable for half Europe to be given to Stalin on a plate: the effects of FDR's hubris and wrong-headedness are still evident from the Balkans to the Baltic.
Your post is either a wind-up WAY above my pay grade or I failed to be clear enough.
FWIW I would have named my son Winston but my wife overruled me.
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
moron
Clarity failure.
Plus a little tired of the remembrance = glorifying war narcissistic ranting.
Honouring the dead of a war(s) fought to prevent the enslavement of millions and the extirmination of entire peoples is a decent thing to do; IMO to imply that those who attempt to do such honour are being jingoistic or are showing support for unbridled militarism is less than fair, decent or honourable.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
We had our Remembrance service this morning, suitably timed so that we could keep the 2 minute silence.
The names of the dead from the village were read out for the two World Wars, for Korea, for the Falklands, for Northern Ireland and from Afghanistan.
Not sure why but there seems to be a very strong link between living in the village and the military, so we have people still in the forces, some from the reserve and lots of ex-service at Church.
This year the roll of honour was read by the nephew of one of the people on it - a WAAF who died when the air station she was serving at was bombed.
We remembered the millions of civilians of both sides who died, as well as those who perished in concentration camps - some of these last by name as relatives of one of the regular worshippers, which is why among the prayers we had a translation of the mourners Kaddish.
I didn't see a single person not wearing a poppy. People wore them to mark Remembrance but also to support the charitable work of the Royal British Legion.
There was no "glorifying" of war. There were many there who had fought and knew that armed conflict should be the response of last resort, not the first; but equally who were only too aware that sometimes the taking up of arms is the least bad option.
If you feel this country would have benefited from being taken over by a madman who sought to exterminate the Jews, gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses and homosexuals of Europe, who made it deliberate policy that all Russian prisoners of war should be starved then that is your prerogative. But please don't presume that those of us who disagree with you are not entitled to mark the sacrifices of those who died so that we did not end up as an ethnically cleansed client province of the thousand year Reich.
Sigh. As I've already said, it's not about pacifism v non-pacifism. The person writing the Graun article is an ex-soldier.
Was there any memorial/remembrance for conscientious objectors who were persecuted by friends, family, churches and their country at your Remembrance service? Those who died on the 'enemy' side (which would have included many sincere Christians who were conscripted against their will)? The teenage boys shot for 'cowardice' when they were actually very ill? THAT is the problem with modern Remembrance Sunday - it doesn't actually commemorate all the war dead. If you (general you) only remember the military heroes from 'our country', then it glorifies war by itself. The whole point of the original movement was to remember the tragedies, not the heroes, because there are no heroes when it comes to war, at least not from a Christian perspective. We all lose when we fight each other. As I have repeatedly said, I have no issue whatsoever with remembering the war dead - I have a problem when not all the war dead are actually remembered.
BTW, Britain invented the concentration camp and used it in South Africa.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Also a bit of a strawman isn't it, to talk of non-poppy-wearers preferring being taken over by a madman (Hitler)? I don't not wear a poppy, or not go to a Remembrance service because I'm a pacifist (I'm not), or because I would have preferred Hitler to win the war (I wouldn't)!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Boogie: Your Church sang "It came upon a midnight clear".
I would have liked my congregations to sing Wesley's " All glory to God in the sky and peace upon earth be restored". ( But we are few and it is not well known!)
It contains the words
"Come then to thy servants again
who long thy appearing to know;
Thy quiet and peaceable reign
In mercy establish below;
All sorrow before thee shall fly,
And anger and hatred be o'er,
And envy and malice shall die,
And discord afflict us no more".
Then we must learn it!
Excellent words.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Jade
Please read what I posted: quote:
...We remembered the millions of civilians of both sides who died, as well as those who perished in concentration camps...
I think the specific categories you mention quote:
...conscientious objectors who were persecuted by friends, family, churches and their country at your Remembrance service? Those who died on the 'enemy' side (which would have included many sincere Christians who were conscripted against their will)? The teenage boys shot for 'cowardice' when they were actually very ill...
were all covered in our remembrance: COs were civilians, conscripts (willing or unwilling) were in the armed forces, as were the soldiers (not just teenagers) executed in WWI and we remembered the dead of ALL the armed forces, on both sides.
Yes, I am well-aware that the idea of keeping in one place - concentrating - civilians in a war zone was a practice invented by the British army during the Boer War. Ironically the Boer PoWs were sent overseas and so not subjected to the vagaries of poor supply, dreadful sanitation and disease that their women and children endured.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Jade
Please read what I posted: quote:
...We remembered the millions of civilians of both sides who died, as well as those who perished in concentration camps...
I think the specific categories you mention quote:
...conscientious objectors who were persecuted by friends, family, churches and their country at your Remembrance service? Those who died on the 'enemy' side (which would have included many sincere Christians who were conscripted against their will)? The teenage boys shot for 'cowardice' when they were actually very ill...
were all covered in our remembrance: COs were civilians, conscripts (willing or unwilling) were in the armed forces, as were the soldiers (not just teenagers) executed in WWI and we remembered the dead of ALL the armed forces, on both sides.
Yes, I am well-aware that the idea of keeping in one place - concentrating - civilians in a war zone was a practice invented by the British army during the Boer War. Ironically the Boer PoWs were sent overseas and so not subjected to the vagaries of poor supply, dreadful sanitation and disease that their women and children endured.
COs weren't just civilians though - they were people punished for being civilians, and a lot of that punishment came from the Established church. Despite many if not most COs objecting to war on Christian grounds (which is a perfectly valid position to take and was indeed the position of the early church).
You can have complicated feelings about Remembrance AND honour the war dead - all the war dead. I am (genuinely) glad your church did indeed honour all the war dead, but unfortunately that seems rare now.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Our remembrance service did not glorify war, it glorified God. It was about the call for peace, as well as paying tribute to and remembrance of all those who have died in wars, all including those being fought at the time. It was respectful and moving. I thank God that it's a Sunday set aside in the church calendar.
It's important to recall the tragedy of war, the loss of young life and the tears of the bereaved, for the sake of the push for peace. The red poppy means that to me now. I have in the past listened to those who suggested that it was about perpetuating war. I know better now, based on the experiences of the services I have attended, and the people I have spoken to who have been directly involved.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
You can have complicated feelings about Remembrance AND honour the war dead - all the war dead. I am (genuinely) glad your church did indeed honour all the war dead, but unfortunately that seems rare now.
We certainly have always tried to do that - and remembering the dead, injured, displaced etc. of all wars on all sides. Perhaps it's easier for Nonconformists - we may well still be swayed by public opinion, but we are less likely to be involved in "civic" celebrations of Remembrance.
In our service today I preached on "Greater love hath no man..." but related it very specifically to the voluntary death of Christ and his suffering with and for the world. I did also comment in passing on the way in politicians or other leaders have sometimes been far too quick to get involved in wars and so sent service-people to die when they should not have done.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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