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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is Messianic Judaism a Bad Thing?
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
Former US President George W. Bush (the son, not GHWB, the father), gave a speech to a fundraiser for a Messaianic Jewish group recently, and there was an outcry among the US Jewish community over it. The speech, as I understand it, was not in support of proselytizing to Jews, but was a Christian-themed inspirational speech as I am sure is the bread-and-butter of how he makes a living nowadays (unlike Clinton, GWB has not done much public political campaigning since his presidency). I think it would have been less controversial if a different celebrity, rather than a former US president, had given a speech to such a group. Also, the particular group that the fundraiser was for was known for its association with Evangelical Christian groups who support proselytizing to Jews as a way of fulfilling their interpretation of the prophecies for the End of Days.
A Messaianic Jew can be broadly defined as a person with a Jewish identity (whether or not other Jews acknowledge him/her as Jewish) who believed that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. The term applies to Jews who convert to what appears to be mainstream conservative Evangelical Christianity (ie, Jews for Jesus), Jews who accept Jesus as the Messiah while continuing to practice at least some elements of the Mosaic Law, and Christians who adopt a Jewish identity and begin to practice some parts of the Mosaic law, use Hebrew terms for Christian concepts, and try to interpret the New Testament from a more Semitic, rather than Hellenistic, point of view.
-Should Messaianic Judaism be controversial? Are mainstream Jews right in believing that public figures should be shamed for associatiing themselves with it? Should mainstream Christians be opposed to it? This also touches upon two larger issues:
-When is it morally permissible for Christians to Evangelize to Jews and how should it be done?
-Is it possible (from a Jewish, Christian, or secular perspective) for a person to be both Christian and Jewish? To claim to be a mainstream Christian while practicing (or encouraging or even requiring) elements of the Mosaic law? To claim to be a mainstream Jew while accepting Jesus as the Messiah? (Note that the State of Israel will not allow Jews who accept Jesus as the Messiah, even if they have Jewish ancestry and still believe themselves to be Jews, to immigrate and be granted Israeli citizenship. Jewish Israeli citizens, however, are free to become Messianic Jews and will not lose their citizenship for doing so (they might be socially ostracized for doing so, though).
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
Oh dear! Personally I haven't much time for the movement and not much good to say for it either.
As for the first question, yes, we should desire the conversion of the Jews, pray for their conversion and preach the gospel to them as we would to any other nation, after all, this is what the Great Commission is about.
Concerning the second question, no, I do not believe that one can belong to Christ and still bind themselves to the Law, not even part of it. As the Apostle says, if one binds themself to the Law they are bound by all of it. Also, this self-made distinction (Mesianic "Jew) is antithetical to the Gospel, as if it carried some kind of favour.
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daronmedway
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# 3012
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Posted
Christianity is Messianic Judaism. Anyone who suggests otherwise doesn't understand Christianity.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Christianity is Messianic Judaism. Anyone who suggests otherwise doesn't understand Christianity.
Sorry, is this some kind of semantic argument or are you saying that Christians circumcise their male children and refrain from eating pork and wearing mixed fibres?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I've met quite a number of Messianic Jews and Jews for Jesus folk in my time. They struck me as very earnest and very similar to certain types of dispensationalist evangelical fundamentalists.
The ones I met were very young and enthusiastic and hadn't really come across alternative views to their very literal interpretation of certain passages - 'see you at the Mount of Olives!' was their parting shot.
They clearly didn't think I was entirely beyond the pale but they were wary lest my views tilt me into the camp of the 'false churches' - which they clearly felt the Roman Catholic, Orthodox and perhaps some mainstream Protestant denominations to be.
I can certainly understand an inclination to retain elements of Jewish identity and so on - particularly given the baleful history of Anti-Semitism within both Eastern and Western Christianity - but I'm wary of those who take that too far ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Should Messaianic Judaism be controversial?
Only if it sets itself apart from the rest of the Church. That it may follow its own liturgies and disciplines is not as such sufficient indication that it does.
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Are mainstream Jews right in believing that public figures should be shamed for associatiing themselves with it?
Only if it is also licit to shame a mainstream Jew for not believing in Christ. Historical experience, if nothing else, suggests that we should be highly cautious about allowing social discrimination over religion.
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Should mainstream Christians be opposed to it?
Only as far as it opposes mainstream Christianity.
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
When is it morally permissible for Christians to Evangelize to Jews and how should it be done?
It is basically always permissible. It should be done in a personally respectful and culturally sensitive manner, as is true for all evangelization.
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Is it possible (from a Jewish, Christian, or secular perspective) for a person to be both Christian and Jewish?
Obviously. Many early Christians were Jewish. All apostles were Jewish. Mary and Joseph were Jewish. Christ was Jewish.
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
To claim to be a mainstream Christian while practicing (or encouraging or even requiring) elements of the Mosaic law?
If this is not done over and against the "gentile" Church, but basically as a personal devotion or perhaps as a legitimate communal rite, then why not?
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
To claim to be a mainstream Jew while accepting Jesus as the Messiah?
If this means that one will belong to the Church rather than to the synagogue as one's "home community", then that should be possible. If one wishes to remain a mainstream Jew in all visible ways, and only gives a conceptual nod to Jesus, then that means attempting to live a contradiction. Part of accepting Christ is to accept His body, the Church, which is greater than the Jewish community.
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
(Note that the State of Israel will not allow Jews who accept Jesus as the Messiah, even if they have Jewish ancestry and still believe themselves to be Jews, to immigrate and be granted Israeli citizenship. Jewish Israeli citizens, however, are free to become Messianic Jews and will not lose their citizenship for doing so (they might be socially ostracized for doing so, though).
If Israel wishes to set itself up as a religious state dedicated to maintaining a "pure" Jewish faith, then that is their choice. It is our choice how we deal with that.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Crœsos
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# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
-Should Messaianic Judaism be controversial? Are mainstream Jews right in believing that public figures should be shamed for associatiing themselves with it? Should mainstream Christians be opposed to it? This also touches upon two larger issues:
-When is it morally permissible for Christians to Evangelize to Jews and how should it be done?
I hadn't heard of this specific group before America's worst postwar president put them on his speaking schedule, but they seem to follow the same kind of apocalyptic Evangelicalism as Bush. The basic premise is that converting Jews to Christianity will hasten the end of the world (which is considered a good thing), at which point any Jews not converted will be killed horribly. Bringing this about is what passes for being "pro-Jewish" (or "pro-Israel", since most American evangelicals don't really distinguish between the two) in American evangelical circles. So yes, given their history most Jews are highly concerned about being targeted for conversion by apocalyptic Christians with a violent view of the End Times™.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Lawrence
Ship's Grill Master
# 4913
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Posted
Well over a thousand years of Christian abuse of Jews, culminating in the Holocaust should cause us to condemn any efforts to convert Jews. Jews view conversion to Christianity as forsaking Judaism. Let Jews sort out who is a Jew and who is not and if they see conversion as forsaking being a Jew, so be it. We Christians have no moral standing to do anything but stay out of it.
Posts: 199 | From: Where once you could get a decent Brain Sandwich | Registered: Aug 2003
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
Personally I don't understand why they bother maintaining the Jewish traditions because the Jewish community has very strong negative feelings towards Messianic Jews/Jews for Jesus and does not accept them. A Jewish woman I studied with told me that they make her sick and that her relatives who died in the Holocaust would turn in their graves to hear that Jews were believing in Jesus. Rather harsh words, I'd say.
However, I do not accept that Christians must not tell the Good News to the Jews, or even that Christians must not set up organizations that focus on that. No different from churches that target Catholic Latinos or Africans or any other missionary activity. Otherwise we are saying that our Jewish friends don't deserve the choice to know Jesus - and that doesn't sit right with me at all.
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Lawrence
Ship's Grill Master
# 4913
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Posted
I am more than willing to let my Jewish friends know Jesus through my own hard and inadequate struggles to be compassionate, loving, forgiving, generous, thoughtful, open, courageous, and humble. I am not willing to say they must approach God in my way.
Posts: 199 | From: Where once you could get a decent Brain Sandwich | Registered: Aug 2003
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MrsBeaky
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# 17663
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Posted
Is Messianic Judaism a bad thing?
Well my friends and family who are Messianic Jews would say far from it! They are very happy with having found the Messiah but they still remain culturally Jewish.
Having trained for two years in cross-cultural mission and now living and working in Kenya, I see no problem with people (including Jews) who become Christians working and living out their faith in culturally appropriate ways as long as those ways stay within the two commandments Jesus highlights in the gospels.
As for the theological position of mass evangelisation of Jews to hasten the day of the apocalypse......I really struggle with this,leaving aside the whole (?Dead Horse)horrendous End Times positional thinking, it's like we're using the Jews all over again to serve our own purposes. Ugh!
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Lawrence
Ship's Grill Master
# 4913
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Is Messianic Judaism a bad thing?
I think Jews consider it oxymoronic. I would not and do not support what they are doing in anyway. The beauty of America is that my opinion of them may be completely ignored by them.
Posts: 199 | From: Where once you could get a decent Brain Sandwich | Registered: Aug 2003
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PaulBC
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# 13712
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Posted
I am afraid that you can nopt be both a Jew & a Christian . It is 1 or the other.
As for prominent people associating with the messianic jewish movement bad choice . If 1 is a Christian one does not acknowledge a movent that falls back on the jewish law . Come out & be seperate.
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
In my opinion, people are obviously free to follow any form of religion or non-religion that they like. I guess a more specific question would be, whether or not there is anything inherently wrong with the beliefs of Messianic Jewish individuals, whether or not Messianic Jewish proselytism of mainstream Jews should treated with concern and skepticism because of the history of Christian-Jewish relations.
Jesus and his disciples were indeed Jewish but once Christianity and Judaism started to define their orthodoxy in opposition to each other the concept of a Jewish Christian or Christian Jew (in terms of both religions, not just ethnic identity) became something that both mainstream religions viewed as problematic at least.
From what I have heard, a good number if not a majority (as some claim) of followers of Messaianic Jewish movements were never ethically Jewish but are Christians (or former people of no specific religion) who became attracted to a culturally Jewish expression of the Christian faith. I have no problem at all with this, as long as they do not tell all Christians that adopting Jewish cultural practices is the only or best way to be Christian.
As for Evangelizing to Jews, I think that it is a very culturally and historically sensitive issue. All Evangelism in my opinion should be done by leading a Christian life and demonstrating Christian values as well as one can. Proselytizing, that is, directly trying to persuade someone else of the truth of one's own faith, often causes more harm than good in today's society. If someone approaches a Christian wanting to learn more about their faith, it is very good for the Christian to explain why s/he believes in that faith and not in others. However, this conversation should be focused on explaining "why I believe what I believe" and not on "why you should believe what I believe." If the non-Christian expresses a desire or at least a consideration to become Christian the Christian can give that person reading material like a Christian Bible or denominational literature (like the Catechism of the Catholic Church) and put that person in contact with ministers in her/his Church, but should not pressure the person and should reming the person of his/her freedom (and indeed, need) to discern what faith s/he should follow.
These guidelines for Evangelism are especially important for Jews who express interest in Christianity because they might have 1. in the West, pressure to conform to a Christian or post-Christian majority culture or 2. internalized stigma from their Jewish upbringing of any Jews who leave the Jewish faith, especially to become Christian.
Those Messianic Jewish movements who proselytize to mainstream Jews arguing, "You can be both Jewish and Christian, no problem," if that is what they are saying, are being misleading, in my opinion, because most mainstream Jews definitively reject that and many mainstream Christians would find that statement (insomuch as it describes belonging to the modern religion called Judaism) doubtful. I also agree that having a Messianic Jewish "wing" of a broader Christian Evangelical movement is concerning because it runs the risk of exploiting Jewish converts for the sake of some goal of the larger Christian organization (ie, raising donations by showing that you are fulfilling Biblical prophecy by converting Jews).
I should add, though, that I do not believe that any Jew, or any person for that matter who follows their beliefs in good faith and works to make the world around them a better place is going to be condemned by God in the end. That does not mean Christian Evangelism is bad or unnecessary. But people who believe that unpersuaded non-Christians are likely going to Hell probably would have a different take on proselytism to Jews and everyone else than mine.
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Mama Thomas
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# 10170
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Posted
Oxymoron. They are neither fish nor fowl. From those I have met, they reject certain rules from rabbinic Judaism (such as no meat and milk together) and the mixed fibre thing, and other laws such as the earlocks but are horrified of bacon. They love to blow a ram's horn at the new moon, yet think mainline Christians are apostate as they do mainstream Judaism.
Most accept many fundamentalist evangelical right wing beliefs, but seem to know little about Christianity except the fundamentalist evangelical right wing sects they left.
They are a weird hybrid of their own making and really don't go back that far. I'm thinking 70s and 80s.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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Anyuta
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# 14692
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Posted
setting aside the issue of whether Messianic Judaism is good or bad, I am bothered by the idea that a former president shouldn't speak with them. Lord knows I'm no fan of Dubya, nor of Messianic Judaism, but I don't see how it's wrong for him to speak to them, or any more so than any other group. Yes, they want to convert other Jews to Christianity.. but then in theory so do all Christians (to the extent that we want all to accept Christ). and even if we didn't.. so what. what is it about their beliefs that make them not worthy of his attention? I can see if they were engaged in some sort of hate (KKK, Neo Nazis..) but just having a belief about what others should believe really doesn't reach that level, IMHO.
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Stetson
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# 9597
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Posted
Mama Thomas wrote:
quote:
From those I have met, they reject certain rules from rabbinic Judaism (such as no meat and milk together) and the mixed fibre thing, and other laws such as the earlocks but are horrified of bacon.
Sounds like they have a fairly pop-culture idea of Judaic practice. They go in for the ban on pork, which is something that everyone sorta knows about through popular representations, but ignore the stuff that has gotten less media play.
Having said that, I wonder if there are more traditionally recognized Jews who do the same sort of thing, maintaining the more "iconic" practices while leaving the more obscure stuff by the wayside.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
setting aside the issue of whether Messianic Judaism is good or bad, I am bothered by the idea that a former president shouldn't speak with them. Lord knows I'm no fan of Dubya, nor of Messianic Judaism, but I don't see how it's wrong for him to speak to them, or any more so than any other group. Yes, they want to convert other Jews to Christianity.. but then in theory so do all Christians (to the extent that we want all to accept Christ). and even if we didn't.. so what. what is it about their beliefs that make them not worthy of his attention? I can see if they were engaged in some sort of hate (KKK, Neo Nazis..) but just having a belief about what others should believe really doesn't reach that level, IMHO.
I think the controversy, especially for American mainstream Jews, arises out of the fact that Bush was the headline speaker at a fundraiser for this group. It's like a musician performing at a fundraiser. Your speech/performance helps them raise money, and people donate money in order to be able to come see you speak/perform. This is true regardless of whether or not he was paid to speak (I think he was), and whether or not his speech mentioned Messianic Judaism at all (I think it didn't).
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lawrence
Ship's Grill Master
# 4913
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
setting aside the issue of whether Messianic Judaism is good or bad, I am bothered by the idea that a former president shouldn't speak with them. Lord knows I'm no fan of Dubya, nor of Messianic Judaism, but I don't see how it's wrong for him to speak to them, or any more so than any other group. Yes, they want to convert other Jews to Christianity.. but then in theory so do all Christians (to the extent that we want all to accept Christ). and even if we didn't.. so what. what is it about their beliefs that make them not worthy of his attention? I can see if they were engaged in some sort of hate (KKK, Neo Nazis..) but just having a belief about what others should believe really doesn't reach that level, IMHO.
I don't think there is anything wrong with GWB speaking to them. I am concerned about the, in my opinion weird, right wing religious agenda with respect to Israel and its influence on US policy in the middle east. To the extent that a former president bought and may buy into that and to the extent that messanic judaism is another arm of that agenda, it concerns the hell out of me.
Posts: 199 | From: Where once you could get a decent Brain Sandwich | Registered: Aug 2003
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Pancho
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# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Mama Thomas wrote:
quote:
From those I have met, they reject certain rules from rabbinic Judaism (such as no meat and milk together) and the mixed fibre thing, and other laws such as the earlocks but are horrified of bacon.
Sounds like they have a fairly pop-culture idea of Judaic practice. They go in for the ban on pork, which is something that everyone sorta knows about through popular representations, but ignore the stuff that has gotten less media play.
I don't think these are necessarily fair criticisms in themselves because there's a variety of of observances among recognized Jews, from the ultra-Orthodox to the thoroughly secular. I had a Jewish co-worker who was pretty secular and pretty much the only law she observed was abstention from pork. She told me it was important to her as a part of her Jewish identity.
If a Reformed Jew can see fit to observe some laws and not others (justifiably or not), then I don't think it's so odd that some Messianic Jews choose to observe some laws over others.
[ 19. November 2013, 19:26: Message edited by: Pancho ]
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
IngoB. Well said.
What are we going to do when there are Messianic Muslims, Messianic Hindus, Messianic Buddhists?
And as for angry, offended, non-Messianic Jews. God bless them.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Mama Thomas wrote:
quote:
From those I have met, they reject certain rules from rabbinic Judaism (such as no meat and milk together) and the mixed fibre thing, and other laws such as the earlocks but are horrified of bacon.
Sounds like they have a fairly pop-culture idea of Judaic practice. They go in for the ban on pork, which is something that everyone sorta knows about through popular representations, but ignore the stuff that has gotten less media play.
I don't think these are necessarily fair criticisms in themselves because there's a variety of of observances among recognized Jews, from the ultra-Orthodox to the thoroughly secular. I had a Jewish co-worker who was pretty secular and pretty much the only law she observed was abstention from pork. She told me it was important to her as a part of her Jewish identity.
If a Reformed Jew can see fit to observe some laws and not others (justifiably or not), then I don't think it's so odd that some Messianic Jews choose to observe some laws over others.
Fair enough. That's kinda the question I was trying to raise in my second paragraph.
quote:
Having said that, I wonder if there are more traditionally recognized Jews who do the same sort of thing, maintaining the more "iconic" practices while leaving the more obscure stuff by the wayside.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Palimpsest
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# 16772
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Posted
Speaking as a culturally Jewish atheist, anyone has the right to call themselves anything they want; Jewish Christians, Anglo Catholics, Latter Day Saints. However they may not be warmly regarded if they pick and chose bits of another persons religion and claim they are part of it. Imagine if Muslims had decided that because they revere Jesus as a prophet preceding Mohammed they are Christian Islamic.
AS for evangelizing Jews, it's one thing to answer questions from those who are curious. It's another to inflict your religion on other people who are not interested. You can be sure that in the United States any Jew has Christianity inflicted on them repeatedly. See the case of Greece, New York currently in the Supreme Court. Enough Already. Why don't you spend your energy evangelizing the other Christians who have done it totally wrong and leave the Jews in peace.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I think it should be for actual Jewish people to decide what is and isn't OK re Judaism, anything else smacks of cultural appropriation and is pretty offensive and patronising. All the actual Jews I know are deeply offended by Messianic 'Jews' claiming any kind of Jewish status (unless they are of Jewish heritage but most aren't) and see it as play-acting. What's so wrong with Christianity that Messianic 'Jews' can't just call themselves Christians?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think it should be for actual Jewish people to decide what is and isn't OK re Judaism
What if some actual Jewish people (however defined) want to call themselves Messianic Jews?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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daronmedway
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# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Christianity is Messianic Judaism. Anyone who suggests otherwise doesn't understand Christianity.
Sorry, is this some kind of semantic argument or are you saying that Christians circumcise their male children and refrain from eating pork and wearing mixed fibres?
It's a semantic argument.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Originally posted by Jade Constable
quote:
What's so wrong with Christianity that Messianic 'Jews' can't just call themselves Christians?
You're right and if I could I would amend my earlier post.
My friends (and family) are Christians who are still culturally Jewish just as my friends here are Christians who are culturally Kenyan.I find it quite moving seeing different cultural forms of worship and spirituality, making the practice of the faith relevant to distinct people groups.
I hadn't completely grasped the emphasis/ baggage that comes with the title "Messianic Judaism" so thank you all.I do struggle with insensitive mission practice.... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
AS for evangelizing Jews, it's one thing to answer questions from those who are curious. It's another to inflict your religion on other people who are not interested. You can be sure that in the United States any Jew has Christianity inflicted on them repeatedly.
I'm unclear as to how you are using the word "inflict." Can you be more specific?
Also considering the wide variety of Christian groups, a Christian is as likely to be on the receiving end of unwanted proselytizing by a group whose beliefs he or she does not share, as a non-Christian is. I'm not interested in what the local fundie church, the Jehovah's Witnesses, or the Mormons have to offer me either.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Anyuta
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# 14692
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Posted
I think there is a distinction to be made between those groups who are culturally non Jews, but who decided to append Jewish practice to their Christianity for some reason (why? I don't know), and the culturally Jewish people who have accepted Christianity while trying to maintain some of there Jewish heritage.
The former, well.... I don't understand at all. The latter I could understand if they were acting as the earliest Christians did (who were, of course, culturally Jewish, and continued their Jewish practice). As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong), those early Jewish Christians still considered themselves religiously Jewish, and when it was determined that gentile converts to Christianity didn't need to abide by the Jewish laws/practice, that exemption didn't apply to cultural Jews who were also Christian.
I suppose that, at least in theory, had there been no decision to allow gentiles to become christians without becoming jews first, then all christians would be Messianic Jews of a sort.
But my understanding of even the culturally Jewish messianic Jews (and I know that some groups are entierly such) are not really adding belief in Christ to their JEwish faith, but are actually adoptiong a sort of evangelical protestant christianity with some Jewish practice tacked on. At least the ones I know.
I became curious about this whole thing when I re-discovered a childhood friend (via facebook). She was (is) culturally Jewish, and was very much a practicing Jew when I knew her as a kid (well, I don't know how much SHE practiced personally, but her family were sort of middle of the road, not Orthodox, Jews). She is now a Messianic Jew, and is very active in that faith (posts about it on FB fairly often). so I became curious as to how that worked. Her description of her faith to me shows that she basically just converted to a very modern (but conservative) brand of Christianity of the evangelical protestant type, but they (and it's a whole congregation of culturally Jewish people) held on to a few Jewish practices.. and from what I can tell, they really are a very few, and very cherry picked (celebrate Passover with a Seder, head covering, circumcision). I don't know how typical they are, but she has implied that it's not a single congregation, but a whole group (didn't call it a denomination).
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Laurelin
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# 17211
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Posted
Wow. I agreed with quite a lot of what IngoB said there up-thread. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I have a stake in this issue because I have friends who are Messianic Jews - and, yes, they are of Jewish heritage. I have no time for fellow Gentiles pretending to be Jews when they're not. That's a lousy witness to the Jewish community: Jade is right, it IS offensive and patronising.
But Messianic Jews - people who are racially Jews, who were born as Jews and will die as Jews, and have come to recognise Jesus as the Messiah - have actually been a phenomenon in Britain since at least the 1840s.
quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
I am afraid that you can nopt be both a Jew & a Christian . It is 1 or the other.
Not true. The first Christians were all Jews.
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Come out & be seperate.
I think that's out-of-context proof-texting. That verse has nothing to do with my being grafted in as a wild Gentile branch into the original olive tree. Also, God has not forgotten Israel.
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
What's so wrong with Christianity that Messianic 'Jews' can't just call themselves Christians?
Because of the cultural baggage pertaining to the word 'Christian' and because of historical anti-Semitism within Christianity. It's complicated. But Michele Guinness - a Jewish convert married to an Anglican priest - is pretty good on this stuff. She is not at all embarrassed to call herself a Christian, but she also embraces her Jewish heritage, and writes about it wonderfully well.
The whole thing about Jesus and the Law of Moses ... well, I just don't think we've really sorted this out fully, to be honest. Jesus IS the Torah personified. That doesn't make the Torah irrelevant and obsolete, since the Torah points to living life God's way, but neither does it mean (according to Galatians) that as a Gentile believer I am bound by every single Levitical law. St Paul did make that pretty clear. (Just as well, since I never fancied taking a ritual bath every time I menstruated ... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) )
OTOH, Matthew 5: 18: "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
Like I said: it's complicated.
And I feel for Messianic Jews (the real McCoy, not Gentiles pretending to be Jewish) because they get flak from both sides: from their fellow Jews but also from the Church, which so often fails to understand their position. Deeply ironic, that, since our Lord and Saviour was a Jew.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
To seperate themselves as distinctly Jewish is contrary to the Gospel, for there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile under the New Covenant. As the Apostle says "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition, the enmities in his flesh: Making void the law of commandments contained in decrees; that he might make the two in himself into one new man, making peace; And might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross, killing the enmities in himself."
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
To seperate themselves as distinctly Jewish is contrary to the Gospel, for there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile under the New Covenant.
Would that apply to all ethnic identities within orthodoxy or is it only for the Jews? And what about male and female?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
It's all accomplished Laurelin.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
To seperate themselves as distinctly Jewish is contrary to the Gospel, for there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile under the New Covenant.
Would that apply to all ethnic identities within orthodoxy or is it only for the Jews? And what about male and female?
What, like the Church in whatever? All that does is identify where that particular local Church is. What it doesn't do is seperate them from the rest of the Church (unlike Messianic Judaism), for all them confess to be part of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church. But thanks for making my point even more clear. You're welcome, I'm sure.
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Laurelin
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# 17211
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Posted
Ad Orientem - the reason why Jewish believers harp on so much about their Jewish identity is because the Church, for centuries, has continued to get it all backwards. From a 1st century situation where Gentile believers were being pressured to conform to the Law of Moses - something which St Paul was adamant, on their behalf, they didn't have to do - the Church got to a place whereby a Jewish person who entered the Church was required to eradicate their Jewishness. Unnecessary, given the Jewish roots of the faith. Nobody else is required to give up their ethnic identity when they become a Christian ...
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
It's all accomplished Laurelin.
Fine, hallelujah, but I'm interested in seeing how that plays out for a believer of Jewish identity and a believer, like me, of Gentile identity. ![[Cool]](cool.gif) This thread shows there is quite a way to go yet.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
Ad Orientem - the reason why Jewish believers harp on so much about their Jewish identity is because the Church, for centuries, has continued to get it all backwards. From a 1st century situation where Gentile believers were being pressured to conform to the Law of Moses - something which St Paul was adamant, on their behalf, they didn't have to do - the Church got to a place whereby a Jewish person who entered the Church was required to eradicate their Jewishness. Unnecessary, given the Jewish roots of the faith. Nobody else is required to give up their ethnic identity when they become a Christian ...
And Jewishness is defined by conformity to the Law? The whole point of the Apostle's words on this matter, it seems, is that this is not so. Rather are true Israelite is one who has the faith of Abraham. So no, I don't accept that Jewishness is identified, under the New Testament at least, by conformity to the Law. It seems that such have missed the whole point and not by a small distance either.
[UBB code fix]
[ 20. November 2013, 14:28: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Laurelin
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# 17211
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Posted
AO ... I am justified by faith in Christ (praise God) but I am not a Jew. Which is all fine and dandy. I have no hang-ups about being Gentile.
Yep, Abraham is my father. In that I belong to the inheritance that God promised him, that Israel would be a light to the nations, because from her the Messiah would come. That wonderful covenantal promise doesn't make me Jewish, and it never will. Of course, it doesn't have to.
My Jewish brothers and sisters in the faith can no more 'stop' being Jewish than I can 'stop' being English.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
My Jewish brothers and sisters in the faith can no more 'stop' being Jewish than I can 'stop' being English.
Indeed, but it seems you've missed the point too.
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Laurelin
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# 17211
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Posted
I am never going to persuade you on this, AO, but I really, really haven't.
Not that I'm claiming to get everything right, I hasten to add. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
But I am very clear on this: Jesus reconciles Jew and Gentile.
And the times of the Gentiles have yet to be fulfilled.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
To seperate themselves as distinctly Jewish is contrary to the Gospel, for there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile under the New Covenant.
But do Messianic Jews actually separate themselves in any serious way, or do they simply follow their own 'liturgies and disciplines'? I agree with IngoB that the latter isn't a problem, surely it's exactly what all churches do with their own ways of working.
I suppose one might consider Messianic Jews as 'weaker brethren' (as Paul said about avoiding food from animals sacrificed in pagan rituals) if they feel it necessary to follow practices like not eating pork, but my take on that is that we should be gracious and non-judgmental with one another. I'm sure each of us has our own particular practices that others might consider to be evidence of our faith being weak.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Oh wow, just remembered a lurid page from my life, when I had a Jewish girl-friend who had converted to Christianity (but wasn't a Messianic Jew). Anyway, there we were in Israel enjoying the hospitality of her rather large family, culminating in a rather large dinner, with about 30-40 people there. At some point in that feast, she got up and proclaimed to them all, 'why won't you open your hearts and accept Christ?'
This went under the heading of non-tactful, and non-respectful, I think, and they all looked daggers at us. What a dumb trick to pull. Actually, some of them did laugh about it later, very gracious of them.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Palimpsest
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# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
AS for evangelizing Jews, it's one thing to answer questions from those who are curious. It's another to inflict your religion on other people who are not interested. You can be sure that in the United States any Jew has Christianity inflicted on them repeatedly.
I'm unclear as to how you are using the word "inflict." Can you be more specific?
Also considering the wide variety of Christian groups, a Christian is as likely to be on the receiving end of unwanted proselytizing by a group whose beliefs he or she does not share, as a non-Christian is. I'm not interested in what the local fundie church, the Jehovah's Witnesses, or the Mormons have to offer me either.
In addition to having people going door to door to give me leaflets to ranting on the street
"Inflict" includes governmental actions a Delaware family having to move due to harassment when protesting Christian prayers in the public school
and Christian conversion attempts in mandatory school assemblies.
There's the Greece, New York starting all Town Board of Supervisors with a prayer by an invited Christian Cleric to having Public School Prayers to having
football team games started with a student leading the assembled in Christian prayer to forbidding businesses from opening on the Christian Sabbath. I'll include the physical threats against those who have gone to court to stop the governmental practice of religion in the term "inflict".
While you may be subject to attempts to convert you by those of inferior Christian denominations, I would be surprised if you've been asked to participate in a school or civic event worship of a deity you do not believe in. How many times has that happened to you? Jews and atheists have that happen all the time. In particular, while you may be subject to fellow Christians attempting to convert you, there's a level of coercion when they are a majority of the civic Government. An over eager Mormon trying to convert you has a different impression when you are in Utah.
For Jews in particular, the current day attempts to convert them are seen by many of them as a milder form of the violent anti-Semitism that has been going on for the last millennia.
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pererin
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# 16956
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Posted
As I see it, evangelizing Jews is usually a disaster, because knowing how to interpret scripture in a Jewish way is not something that many Christians tend to have much grounding in. Which of course is a big shame, as how Jesus and Paul on one hand and Rabbinic Judaism on the other both relate to pre-70 Pharisaism is very interesting.
And on that sort of level, although Messianic Jews have an unfortunate tendency to appear a bit "fringe", I really appreciate their Bible translations. Not because they're good, or even readable (they tend to be full of Yiddish words); but because sometimes they have a moment of brilliance in rendering something – particularly in the New Testament – in a way that makes the authors' traditions more clear.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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irish_lord99
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# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
What are we going to do when there are Messianic Muslims, Messianic Hindus, Messianic Buddhists?
There are. It's the latest trend in Evangelical missions: insider movements. I know several Messianic Muslims from Turkey. They are "followers of Christ" but do not identify as "Christian." They still go to the Mosque and practice the Muslim liturgy, holidays, etc.
I'm not sure what to make of it all myself, but I will tell you that the missionaries behind these 'movements' seem to be grasping at straws: doing anything they can to rack up numbers of converts.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
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Posted
This might be tangential, but I wonder if praying for the "conversion of the Jews" is antisemitic by definition.
I also wonder if "messianic Judaism" isn't a either a set-up by radical evangelical protestants or has been taken over by them. I mean, really, if some Jews convert and others don't what do we do with the ones who don't? Christianity's history is not positive in this regard.
And seeing as I started with a tangent, I'll end with one: the torture president George Bush is a war criminal.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
What it doesn't do is seperate them from the rest of the Church (unlike Messianic Judaism), for all them confess to be part of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church.
So all you're really saying is that if you are not Orthodox you're not biblical. Messianic Jews are out in the same way that protestants are. It's nothing to do with referencing Jewish identity.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Stetson
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# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
What are we going to do when there are Messianic Muslims, Messianic Hindus, Messianic Buddhists?
There are. It's the latest trend in Evangelical missions: insider movements. I know several Messianic Muslims from Turkey. They are "followers of Christ" but do not identify as "Christian." They still go to the Mosque and practice the Muslim liturgy, holidays, etc.
I'm not sure what to make of it all myself, but I will tell you that the missionaries behind these 'movements' seem to be grasping at straws: doing anything they can to rack up numbers of converts.
That's pretty odd, and not exactly parallel to Messianic Judaism, which posits Jesus as the fulfillment of Judaism.
Hard to see how you could posit that Jesus is the fulfillment of Islam, since Jesus was around before Muhammed was.
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Stetson
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# 9597
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Posted
quote:
I mean, really, if some Jews convert and others don't what do we do with the ones who don't?
I believe the standard explanation is that most of the ones who don't convert before the Rapture, end up getting killed by the Antichrist afterwards. But I'm not sure if this applies to Jews who convert AFTER the Rapture.
link
In any case, they all end up going to hell if they don't convert.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
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Posted
Is that a Chick tract? Good grief. ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
What it doesn't do is seperate them from the rest of the Church (unlike Messianic Judaism), for all them confess to be part of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church.
So all you're really saying is that if you are not Orthodox you're not biblical. Messianic Jews are out in the same way that protestants are. It's nothing to do with referencing Jewish identity.
Apples and oranges, my old mucker, apples and oranges. The West has separate from the East because it does not confess the Orthodox faith. Messianic Jews, or whatever, even before we get to faith have separated themselves because of their Jewishness. This is exactly thr beef St.Paul had with St. Peter in Antioch. They're hypocrites.
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