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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The principle of non-judgement
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
The Pacifism thread has got me thinking about how we apply Jesus' principles not just in an individual way, but in a wider societal context. In particular, Jesus' words on judging people.
Whilst most people on the pacifism thread accept that Jesus' words about turning the other cheek and so on apply to individuals in their own personal conduct, it's only the pacifists that extend it to have a societal impact - a corporate non-violent stance. Others see it differently, that the principles that apply for personal conduct don't then apply to nations, governments, or, for example, defending someone else (i.e. not turning their cheek for them).
So, I was thinking about Jesus' strong words about non-judgement. Don't judge less you be judged, and so on.
Again, I don't think many Christians would dispute that this is something we should practice on an individual level. However, I'm wondering how that is extended on a societal level. Conscientious objectors don't agree with their Government's stance on warfare, but we don't hear much about individuals objecting to their Government's Criminal Justice system.
If a society was to try to put these principles into practice, what would it look like? I can only really see space for restorative justice, and protecting society from perpetrators, but not punishment for the sake of it. And can it even work? Surely the implication is that, because we shouldn't judge people (let he who is without sin cast the first stone) the idea of even labelling someone a criminal is questionable? How does that fit within philosophies like Christian Anarchism and Christian Pacifism?
So, are Jesus' words on non-judgement only for personal conduct, or is there a wider message for society there? How should those principles inform and affect our attitudes towards the criminal justice system and other parts of society?
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Lord Jestocost
Shipmate
# 12909
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Posted
Can you not say, at the individual or social level, or anywhere in between, something along the lines of (exaggerated for effect) "I know that I am just as much a sinner as you, and I cannot and do not judge you for precisely that reason, but I see that you are beating up that little old lady and I believe this to be a wrong action, so I am going to prevent you from doing it"?
Posts: 761 | From: The Instrumentality of Man | Registered: Aug 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
This issue has come up in my work a lot, since many people want to find fault in someone else, or in themselves. Anyway, sometimes, I would say rather provocatively, 'do you ever consider that it is nobody's fault'?
This could have an interesting effect on some people, as they were so attuned to the idea of fault existing, and being identifiable, that to say maybe not, bamboozled them.
Well, some people are able to profit from it; some not. I think it can lead to the idea of not comparing things, which is itself quite fruitful, but I suppose, not particularly Christian! Well, not sure about that.
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Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Psmith
Shipmate
# 15311
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Posted
I certainly think that punishment is not a legitimate function of the justice system; prevention of harmful action is, and that can mean imprisonment, rehabilitative efforts etc. But to see a persons suffering as desirable for its own sake is another matter- and at the heart of much political rhetoric about the justice system.
Posts: 81 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
I've always seen the courts as judging the action not the person. There are some things that we cannot, as a society, allow to happen if we are going to carry on functioning. Murder, rape, theft etc, if unchecked lead to a breakdown of society. Therefore those actions have to be discouraged somehow. Ensuring that the consequence, if caught, might be a long prison sentance is a reasonable way of discouraging them.
Working with under 5's as I do, I tend to see things quite simplistically. Our children are never punished but sometimes there are consequences to their actions. We never have naughty children but sometimes their actions are bad choices.
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Psmith:
I certainly think that punishment is not a legitimate function of the justice system; prevention of harmful action is, and that can mean imprisonment, rehabilitative efforts etc. But to see a persons suffering as desirable for its own sake is another matter- and at the heart of much political rhetoric about the justice system.
Disagree. Punishment is a worthy function of the criminal justice system. The issue currently is the misapplication of punishment to things like drug users and sellers. We call federal prisons "penitentiaries" in Canada, and we want those who've harmed others to learn to be penitent. We also want inmates to understand that the wages of sin is death, so they lose some period of time while incarcerated to pay for their misdeeds, killing a bit of their life in response to their killing of a bit of the life of another.
God's forgiveness is free to be taken, but humanity cannot aspire to heaven on earth and should not presume to do so. It is in fact healing to have someone locked away after they've done things, bad things, to you or to someone you love. It gives credibility to your feelings of violation, it gives a sense of reasonableness to the magnitude of feelings and horror. I believe that God forgives, but I would not have ever said anything like some of things about punishment and just discouraging bad behaviour that I have seen within this more theoretical thread to my family member who was nearly murdered.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
Can you not say, at the individual or social level, or anywhere in between, something along the lines of (exaggerated for effect) "I know that I am just as much a sinner as you, and I cannot and do not judge you for precisely that reason, but I see that you are beating up that little old lady and I believe this to be a wrong action, so I am going to prevent you from doing it"?
Only if you use nonviolent prevention methods.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
When my daughters were toddlers, and did/got into something they shouldn't, I would go over to them, pick them up gently, and say, "I'm not going to let you do that."
Then I carried her to another part of the room where there was something else interesting, and put her down. They got the idea that there were limits that would be enforced.
Society needs to give the message that there are limits, and if those limits are disregarded, unpleasant consequences will follow.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
As a society, we attempt to act without judgement when people we believe lack mental capacity act in dangerous ways.
The law requires the least restrictive option, but that may involve a high level of restriction if the danger is particularly high. The 'natural' consequence in such situations is a) the deprivation of liberty in certain ways and b) the opportunity to be rewarded for socially desirable behaviour.
The problem with trying this approach to crime is that people who are mentally capable are capable of a high degree of planning and evasion - and you would end up with the level of difficulty and expense the UK government currently has managing terror suspects' control orders (which are a massive human rights violation in themselves but that is an issue for another thread).
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
So, I was thinking about Jesus' strong words about non-judgement. Don't judge less you be judged, and so on.
Again, I don't think many Christians would dispute that this is something we should practice on an individual level. However, I'm wondering how that is extended on a societal level.
This is a bizarre dichotomy. Christian values permeate Western society, but only as is convenient? The primrose path and/or Pontious Pilot.
We make judgements, it is part of our animal makeup. But there are religions/philosophies which call on us to step beyond this. Christianity is one of these.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
God's forgiveness is free to be taken, but humanity cannot aspire to heaven on earth and should not presume to do so.
Woah, like Jesus is on the forum contributing!
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If one's philosophy does not work at all levels of one's life, does one truly believe?
No, I am not saying such a government would be easy, but the attempts might make a better world.
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[ 21. November 2013, 15:08: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This is a bizarre dichotomy. Christian values permeate Western society, but only as is convenient?
Well, quite. For me the question isn't whether they should be applied, but how. That's partly why I find noprophet's stance facinating. His attitude towards war and crime seem to be polar opposites in principle. With war it's a fixed, un-negotiatable ideology. With crime and punishment it's merely a practical reality where compromise is unavoidable.
For me, the truth has to be somewhere in the middle for both issues.
I think my difficulty is that we've had hundreds of years of Western Christendom, which, while on the surface being a 'Christian' society, has failed spectacularly to model and live up to the principles and teachings of its founder. So, while I yearn to see a society that does base itself on the principles that Jesus taught, I'm reticent to see it applied too quickly or thoughtlessly; or we'll just end up making the same kind of mistakes that have been made so many times before. An individual faith is much easier to comprehend. Extending that out to community is something I find harder and harder to grok, though the task is one that I think is incredibly important.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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