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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Rev Paul Flowers
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
Just wondering what shipmates think about the failures at the Co-op bank and the emerging stories about the former chairman of the bank: Paul Flowers. (For those outside the UK this includes alleged purchasing of hard drugs and expenses abuses).
The news reports have made much of the fact that Paul Flowers is a Methodist minister.
Does this damage the church generally, or are most people able to see that one bad egg isn't representative?
I'm curious to know how he was able to become a chairman of a bank when, if I've understood right, he had no relevant experience. So some systemic failures there but again the news reports have implied that his dog collar acted as a kind of shield to prevent proper scrutiny.
Views?
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
While taking some delight from the sticky wicket that Labour are in on this one, I'm rather annoyed by the number of people (some of whom ought to know better) who keep referring to 'the Reverend Flowers'.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Pretty crazy for a Methodist minister! I didn't think they got up to anything like that!
However, I don't understand how he could have been a full-time minister and also have all these other activities going on. I thought ministers had too much on their plate already! Where did he find the time??
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
While taking some delight from the sticky wicket that Labour are in on this one, I'm rather annoyed by the number of people (some of whom ought to know better) who keep referring to 'the Reverend Flowers'.
But he is the Reverend Flowers. He's an ordained minister. ISTM this fits into an overall picture of how assumptions are made about respectability. He's been an ordained minister for a long time and I suspect this has had considerable bearing on his other appointments.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
The news reports have made much of the fact that Paul Flowers is a Methodist minister.
Does this damage the church generally, or are most people able to see that one bad egg isn't representative?
I don't know much about this case in particular, but my general answer is that it does damage the church - both on a denominational basis and as a whole when the majority of people think a Christian is a Christian is a Christian and don't car about denominations - when this kind of thing happens.
I don't know of any denominations that would not deserve to be laughed at if they pleaded the "one bad egg" argument these days. The problem is not so much that this stuff happens, but that it happens again instead of churches learning from past failures and putting changes in place.
Is Flowers an active minister and was he during any of the period of the abuses being mentioned? If the answer to either is yes, the best thing the Methodist Church could do is to issue a statement apologising for enabling the abuse and inviting the police to examine all records they have from the period in question - they can help rehabilitate the image of Christianity a little by openly admitting they fucked up instead of trying the damage control routine.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
While taking some delight from the sticky wicket that Labour are in on this one
Yes - it's an easy and cheap way of diverting attention from the myriad of links the Tories had with the various people who caused and profited from the financial crises.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
While taking some delight from the sticky wicket that Labour are in on this one, I'm rather annoyed by the number of people (some of whom ought to know better) who keep referring to 'the Reverend Flowers'.
But he is the Reverend Flowers. He's an ordained minister. ISTM this fits into an overall picture of how assumptions are made about respectability. He's been an ordained minister for a long time and I suspect this has had considerable bearing on his other appointments.
Tangential clarification: Anglican't is referring to the use of "the Reverend" with family name alone as being incorrect usage. Regrettably, I think that Anglican't is fighting a losing battle on this one.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Something comic about it also, crystal Methodist.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
Pretty crazy for a Methodist minister
Svitlana, you have a gift for comic understatement.
I'm a UK Methodist, and I have some connection to folks working for the bank here in Manc. I probably have to be a little circumspect (not least to protect the Ship), but:
He's the chairman, not chief exec. Like the chancellor of a UK university, not the vice-chancellor. Yes, it's scandelous; yes, it's a little (but not very) odd that he had no banking background - just as poets and musicians end up as university chancellors; yes, one or two people might make a joke who know I'm a Methodist, but in this circuit we're down to a few small congregations of pensioners. We have no influence, and are regarded as irrelevant. People only get pissed off about this stuff when the perpetrators are percieved as powerful - and whilst Flowers might have had power in some contexts, any pulpit-based influence waned 1, maybe 2 generations ago around here. So damage to the church will be minimal, I think. This comes over on the telly, where comment centres on his resignations from political and civic responsibilities - no one has commented much on his current status re: the church (the most important dimension to me, I guess, but I'm one of those odd Christians!).
Although he seems to have been something of a personally greedy, stupid b******, in the media he seems to be being set up as responsible for the bank's current huge woes. This is bullshit, and scapegoating - he had no power. Other people [flowery language deleted...I'm thinking WWIHD (what would Ian Hislop do)] were responsible for the merger with the Britania building society, which turned out to be something of a toxic turd - amongst lots of other stupidity. Several of them have recently been up before government committees - public domain video proceedings are online, if you really want to search for footage of them passing the blame to each other.
If I were them, I might be thinking all this is a gift, and hoping Flowers would take the heat off me. More govt enquiries are on the way into the bank's losses - will blame be justly apportioned, or will the 'bonking vicar' angle save the skins of those who really ought to be exposed?
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
There seem to be huge inquiries into one thing or another all over the place. The cost must be enormous.
Yep, the Methodist Church will suffer. And yes, I am sure his position in the Church gave him a respectability he clearly didn't warrant.
Ho hum ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
There seem to be huge inquiries into one thing or another all over the place. The cost must be enormous.
For those leading legal professionals involved, it must be trebles all round.
I hear consultants in the banking industry are doing rather well out of it, too.
I'm really tired.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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The Undercover Christian
Apprentice
# 17875
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Posted
quote:
I don't know much about this case in particular, but my general answer is that it does damage the church
quote:
Yep, the Methodist Church will suffer. And yes, I am sure his position in the Church gave him a respectability he clearly didn't warrant.
The magical thing about reputation is that it only suffers if you care about it.
Why should the Methodist Church suffer? And what respectability should a position in the church bring?
Respectability is like dunking a digestive biscuit. It looks like it holds, but it's internally crumbling and eventually will flop into your tea. You just have to hope nobody's looking when it does.
None of us warrant respectability. And it's crazy that people think the church should confer any. We're the organisation that openly admits that all humans are, ultimately, a bit pants.
Paul Flowers will face a due process for any unlawful or illegal acts he may have committed. And perhaps this will re-open the debate (which seems to be abating without resolution - boo) on global finance.
But let's not pretend that we're the BBC or some other organisation for whom brand matters. We're here to do a job, and we'll crack on with that whether the coffers are full of pennies or not, whether people like us or not, whether we're on the front page of The Times or a footnote on page 11 of the East Kilbride Courier & Post.
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http://www.theundercoverchristian.com
Posts: 26 | Registered: Oct 2013
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
There seem to be huge inquiries into one thing or another all over the place. The cost must be enormous.
Yep, the Methodist Church will suffer. And yes, I am sure his position in the Church gave him a respectability he clearly didn't warrant.
Ho hum
Costs involved in complicated legal enquiries and prosecutions are inevitably high but I don't see any alternative. We're paying the price of decades of silence and cover-ups when it comes to the wrongdoings of people with power and influence in public life.
Paul Flowers' position in the Church could have helped in securing his paid position within the Coop group and the other positions which allowed for expense claims. I'm assuming he was/is a non-stipendiary minister.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
Eighteen months ago I got myself into something of a pickle as far as the Methodist Church was concerned. After a lifetime working with young people I had come to the conclusion (and I was certainly not alone) that the Church's new safeguarding policies were not only likely to be ineffective but also to be counter-productive in that they would engender a feeling of false security.
So worried was I that I wrote to the Secretary of Conference expressing my fears in quite plain language. In reply I received a letter which I can only describe as arrogant, accusing me of lacking Christian love, telling me that I had no business querying the Church's agreed policies, and warning me off saying anything to that effect in public! My considered reply to that letter didn't even merit the courtesy of a reply.
I subsequently mentioned my concerns in a sermon, only to be shouted down in the pulpit by the senior steward, who publicly accused me of lying about the Church's position.
And now my worst fears have been fulfilled: no doubt Rev. Flowers had ticked all the appropriate boxes (literally and figuratively) and was thus regarded as an appropriate figure to lead worship, associate with young people and vulnerable adults and all the rest of it.
I should feel vindicated (and at least my conscience is clear that I did raise my concerns with the Church authorities in good time).
Instead I just feel sick.
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
IRRC there was a fair bit of pressure from the gov for someone, perhaps anyone, to take on the Britannia. It was always my impression the coop were lent on to take them. I thought it was a mistake at the time, it is depressing - in that if they hadn't done that I don't think they would have needed a rescue deal. They were not one of those banks playing the markets and lending recklessly during the boom.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, I've been puzzled for years by the mismatch between the Co-op Bank's previous conduct, and then this 'go large' approach, of acquiring new banks branches, buying the Brittania and so on. I am curious as to how this was being driven - was it purely by Co-op staff who got too big for their boots, or was there external pressure, or did they hook up with some City, buy 'em and flog 'em merchants? Maybe all three.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
I agree with you andras about the false sense of security from simply having a policy. The CofE's policy is very similar to that of the Methodist Church and so are the attitudes you describe.
On a related note the CofE has a 'Dignity at Work' policy dating from 2008 and apparently produced by the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds. Each diocese is meant to use the document as guidance in developing its own policy and practices. There's no legal requirement and it therefore isn't mandatory but many dioceses have put it into effect or at the very least have provided a website link to the national document. Ripon and Leeds' diocese has simply buried the document and provides no acknowledgement that it exists. Anyone reading the introduction to the policy might assume the Bishop who signed it actually knows and cares about the issue of bullying and harassment and that his diocese is at the forefront of dealing with it. Wrong.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, I've been puzzled for years by the mismatch between the Co-op Bank's previous conduct, and then this 'go large' approach, of acquiring new banks branches, buying the Brittania and so on. I am curious as to how this was being driven - was it purely by Co-op staff who got too big for their boots, or was there external pressure, or did they hook up with some City, buy 'em and flog 'em merchants? Maybe all three.
AIUI 1 & 2 yes, 3 no. In that reading, of course, even without 2, 1 would have been enough to cause problems.... The real problem, as indeed was the case with the Britannia, Northern Rock, Co-Op, B&B, etc, was small institutions trying to act like big ones without bringing in new people from the big boys and so consequently not knowing what they were doing. People who were perfectly good at running building societies, or, in the case of the Co-Op, very small scale banks, trying to act like bankers...
The big boys failed for different reasons, usually not linked quite so much to the retail side of things.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
One minute the secular world is leaving Christianity in the dark ages in favour of promoting the moral equality of homosexuality and turning a blind eye to the prolific drug use of its celebrities, the next minute it is outing Methodist ministers for taking part in drug fuelled homosexual orgies. Seems hypocritical to me.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Your logic has slipped!
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Eighteen months ago I got myself into something of a pickle as far as the Methodist Church was concerned. After a lifetime working with young people I had come to the conclusion (and I was certainly not alone) that the Church's new safeguarding policies were not only likely to be ineffective but also to be counter-productive in that they would engender a feeling of false security.
So worried was I that I wrote to the Secretary of Conference expressing my fears in quite plain language. In reply I received a letter which I can only describe as arrogant, accusing me of lacking Christian love, telling me that I had no business querying the Church's agreed policies, and warning me off saying anything to that effect in public! My considered reply to that letter didn't even merit the courtesy of a reply.
I subsequently mentioned my concerns in a sermon, only to be shouted down in the pulpit by the senior steward, who publicly accused me of lying about the Church's position.
And now my worst fears have been fulfilled: no doubt Rev. Flowers had ticked all the appropriate boxes (literally and figuratively) and was thus regarded as an appropriate figure to lead worship, associate with young people and vulnerable adults and all the rest of it.
I should feel vindicated (and at least my conscience is clear that I did raise my concerns with the Church authorities in good time).
Instead I just feel sick.
Yes, it's a sorry state of affairs isn't it. Amongst the items reported so far, Flowers
Left a charity over concerns about expense claims
Has a conviction for drink driving (see above link)
Has a conviction for gross indecency
I know that these things are supposed to be allowed to be taken into account, and disclosure of previous convictions is not an automatic bar, but it looks like there was either some very bad calls, or people were just asleep at the wheel.
The poor press office must be in meltdown. Those two links both contain exactly the same statement about him being very sorry and being allowed to continue.
Even when ministers move around in the stationing process, you would still think the whispers would build up to a crescendo eventually. How did nobody piece it all together?
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
quote:
(snipped!)
Even when ministers move around in the stationing process, you would still think the whispers would build up to a crescendo eventually. How did nobody piece it all together?
I think people did know and just kept quiet about it; a personal friend knows the man in question, and has told me that none of this has come as a surprise to her. None so blind as those who will not see!
Last night's televised statement from Methodist Church House was about as bad as it could be, and could be roughly paraphrased as We knew nothing about it, our main focus is on forgiveness, nothing to see here so move on. Barely a word of regret and not a touch of humility, but all spoken in a hushed and 'holy' voice.
Heads should roll in the Church, but probably won't.
[snipped excess code]
[ 22. November 2013, 11:34: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by andras:
So worried was I that I wrote to the Secretary of Conference expressing my fears in quite plain language. In reply I received a letter which I can only describe as arrogant, accusing me of lacking Christian love, telling me that I had no business querying the Church's agreed policies, and warning me off saying anything to that effect in public! My considered reply to that letter didn't even merit the courtesy of a reply.
British Methodists must be very different from their American counterparts. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think they are, Beeswax Altar, although, that said, I've met one or two US Methodists in my time who reminded me of their British counterparts.
The same applies with the Baptists. UK Baptists have a family resemblance to US ones but tend not to fit the Southern Baptist stereotype.
Mind you, the shoutings-down and so on in Andras's case did surprise me ... although I am aware that discussion and debate in Methodist circles in the UK can be very robust ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
Well, you can hardly see him just slipping quietly back in to the list of ministers available for stationing in a year or two can you. Assuming he's not engaged in some prison chaplaincy...
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, I've been puzzled for years by the mismatch between the Co-op Bank's previous conduct, and then this 'go large' approach, of acquiring new banks branches, buying the Brittania and so on. I am curious as to how this was being driven - was it purely by Co-op staff who got too big for their boots, or was there external pressure, or did they hook up with some City, buy 'em and flog 'em merchants? Maybe all three.
quote:
...and Betjemaniac added:
AIUI 1 & 2 yes, 3 no. In that reading, of course, even without 2, 1 would have been enough to cause problems.... The real problem, as indeed was the case with the Britannia, Northern Rock, Co-Op, B&B, etc, was small institutions trying to act like big ones without bringing in new people from the big boys and so consequently not knowing what they were doing. People who were perfectly good at running building societies, or, in the case of the Co-Op, very small scale banks, trying to act like bankers...
The big boys failed for different reasons, usually not linked quite so much to the retail side of things.
Hey, dig my nested quotes ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
'Our own correspondent' is in near agreement with Mr B, but departs here:
quote:
without bringing in new people
.
I've heard (I think) Robert Peston doing this 'should've got some real people in' thing, but it's back-to-front.
There were a whole load of new people, consultants and staff from other shining lights of UK finance, who came in and rapidly got seriously out of touch with the Co-op's formerly water-tight, small scale risk averse approach. Which, up to that point and without outside help, had delivered a nice small bank with a solid balance sheet safely past the first disasters of the World Financial Crisis.
Empire building (methaphorical and actual) followed - it could have been even worse since the new prestige office building which was built, was very nearly followed by a whole swathe of speculative 'regeneration' funded by Co-op bank (ahem) resources.
I hear that very large numbers of outside consultants are currently engaged in the thorny problems of cost reduction. Let's hope the consultancy budget is ring-fenced to ensure plenty more top-quality thought is applied...trebles all round!
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
How sad this all is.
Personally for Paul Flowers - who, whatever his faults and failings, is now having to deal with a media storm.
For the Methodist Church - who, it seems, both failed to notice (or act on) concerns over Paul Flowers' conduct and now are not acting with appropriate contrition and resolve to learn from what's happened.
And for the Co-operative Bank, whose selection procedure that led to Flowers being appointed as chair now looks to have been shockingly poor. On a personal note, I'm very likely to be moving my custom from the Co-op Bank over this, because the more I hear about their procedures and the nature of their links with the Labour party, the less faith I have in their competence and ethics.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
Does this damage the church generally, or are most people able to see that one bad egg isn't representative?
Does this damage the whole image of the co-operative movement or, even wider, ethical values in business? No-one is perfect, but how one would square the apparent ethical values of the Co-op with using drugs that are sourced through a supply chain that causes misery to millions all over the world is a bit of a mystery.
I bet Paul Flowers buys fair-trade coffee. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of this was known about but people either chose to keep quiet or were pressured into saying nothing.
He was exposed through a 'sting' operation organised by an acquaintance
quote:
Stuart Davies, 26, first encountered the minister via the gay dating mobile phone app Grindr in early October. The two men exchanged texts and met a few weeks later. Mr Davies, who admits having used drugs in the past, said he was shocked by the scale of Mr Flowers’ drug taking.
“After hearing him bragging about his life, about his connections in Parliament, his 40 years in the church and his all-round good works, it just felt wrong,” said Mr Davies to the Mail. “He seemed to be using his status to get young men off their heads for sex.”
Despite having very limited banking experience he was paid an annual salary of £120,000. What was he supposed to be doing to earn this salary?
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
Despite having very limited banking experience he was paid an annual salary of £120,000. What was he supposed to be doing to earn this salary?
Like a great many chairmen and CEOs of companies, he was supposed to look the part and nothing else.
He couldn't even do that, for shame.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Like a great many chairmen and CEOs of companies, he was supposed to look the part and nothing else.
He couldn't even do that, for shame.
Which rather neatly links us back to that thread on executive pay.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The same applies with the Baptists. UK Baptists have a family resemblance to US ones but tend not to fit the Southern Baptist stereotype.
"... tend not to ..." - careful you don't oversell it there, Gamaliel!
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Erroneous Monk said:
quote:
Does this damage the whole image of the co-operative movement or, even wider, ethical values in business
It does, especially when the media spin it along the lines of 'see, told you amateur banks ran by well-meaning liberals couldn't work'.
But this is, of course, a lie. (I hear Peston may be grinding a personal axe, by the way, but that's a tangent). In truth, the Co-op ethos was sound, the ethical investment stance was (and, I think, still is) true and carefully administered, and even after 2008 things were much more solid than in the 'commercial' sector. It only went tits up when greed, pride and power got going at the top - a tragedy, since this is what had wrecked the rest of the banking sector already.
Is there enough left to salvage? That's going to depend on us not pulling our money out. Whether it is worth staying in will, for me, depend on whether the genie can be squished back into the bottle. If not, I'll be going further into Oikocredit, Shared Interest and the like instead.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
He was NOT exposed by a sting operation - or at least that only exposed some distressing personal failings.
What exposed him was his appearance before the Treasury Select Committee. In fact, it left not just him exposed by the regulatory framework that allowed him to be approved in the post - the old FSA - plus the people who proposed him for the job and those already on the board who sat back and let him be appointed.
And there is a whole lake of murk that is starting to bubble to the surface about the lending criteria employed over the 'loans' to the Labour Party, the wholly-owned subsidiary company that made matching loans, the fact that the LP had effectively defaulted on its previous loan yet was made another, etc, etc, etc.
The business about the Co-op taking over Britannia and whether or not there was coercion almost pales into insignificance.
What is made crystal clear is that the whole structure of the financial division of the Co-op is deeply flawed and not fit for purpose.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Your logic has slipped!
How so?
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Erroneous Monk said:
quote:
Does this damage the whole image of the co-operative movement or, even wider, ethical values in business
It does, especially when the media spin it along the lines of 'see, told you amateur banks ran by well-meaning liberals couldn't work'.
But this is, of course, a lie. (I hear Peston may be grinding a personal axe, by the way, but that's a tangent). In truth, the Co-op ethos was sound, the ethical investment stance was (and, I think, still is) true and carefully administered, and even after 2008 things were much more solid than in the 'commercial' sector. It only went tits up when greed, pride and power got going at the top - a tragedy, since this is what had wrecked the rest of the banking sector already.
Is there enough left to salvage? That's going to depend on us not pulling our money out. Whether it is worth staying in will, for me, depend on whether the genie can be squished back into the bottle. If not, I'll be going further into Oikocredit, Shared Interest and the like instead.
Well, I am curious to see the details of 'greed, power and pride' fermenting at the top. I am puzzled by the time frame as well - did all this get going before the financial crash, or after? If it was after, then it seems incredible that a bank would ignore the very large red flashing lights around bank acquisitions, leveraged finance, and so on.
Also puzzling is the degree of regulation - did anybody scrutinize all these goings on? Again, you would think that after 2008, there would be ultra-cautious advice from various financial institutions, but maybe not. Rumours abound that the Co-op was actually specifically exempted from tough regulation, but rumours is rumours.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think they are, Beeswax Altar, although, that said, I've met one or two US Methodists in my time who reminded me of their British counterparts.
The same applies with the Baptists. UK Baptists have a family resemblance to US ones but tend not to fit the Southern Baptist stereotype.
Mind you, the shoutings-down and so on in Andras's case did surprise me ... although I am aware that discussion and debate in Methodist circles in the UK can be very robust ...
I have to say, it left me with my ghast absolutely flabbered. In the last couple of days I've come to realise that the steward in question, who has held important office in the Church in the past, will be well-acquainted with Rev. Flowers and may now be wondering whether things are as rosy as he was saying!
This highlights the whole Protection issue, of course: in our own Circuit, every single Local Preacher who had professional experience and often considerable expertise of protection issues refused to have anything to do with the new policy and were accordingly suspended en masse, and most of them have now abandoned Methodism in favour of other denominations, as indeed have Mrs Andras and I.
At the same time abuse can clearly flourish provided the abuser is prepared to tell a few porkies and people are prepared to look the other way - and as I was taught one very unpleasant August Sunday, the pressure is really on from the hierarchy not to rock the boat. Clever, isn't it.
As far as the undoubted tragedy of the man in question is concerned, Lord Vetinari in one of the Discworld books comments that 'freedom includes the freedom to suffer the consequences - indeed, that is the freedom on which all the others depend.' Worth thinking about, perhaps...
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
daronmedway
Wouldn't the media be hypocritical if they castigated Rev Flowers for promoting a more liberal life style (re drugs and sex)? Rather than living some kind of clandestine double life not based on values he was publically proclaiming?
[ 22. November 2013, 18:09: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
Well, I am curious to see the details of 'greed, power and pride' fermenting at the top.
I'm curious to see what the inquiries bring out into the open. I suspect...not all of it. A large number of quite senior bank staff are being laid off at the moment - will they talk? It remains to be seen. Will staff in-place go on record? I suspect not...though they might well get things off their chests with friends and relatives...
quote:
I am puzzled by the time frame as well - did all this get going before the financial crash, or after?
I know nothing abut loans to the labour party. But the Britannia merger (which is in large part what wiped out the bank balance sheet) took place *after* the crash. One suspects the motivation on the part of the Britannia management was to hide their toxic mortgage debt under a larger balance sheet. But not large enough, it seems. What was the co-op motivation? Anecdote suggests management wanted to be much bigger cheeses. Govt enquiries so far have talked a good bit about Due Diligence, but no-one has as yet owned up to being the person required to exercise it - lots of buck passing. Flowers looks like a fall guy, but whilst this might work in the media I doubt it will satisfy government enquiry...but what the hell, these people are Teflon coated.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Another strange facet is that the EU required the bank branches (Lloyds?), to be sold off, and the Co-op was favourite.
Mervyn King seems to be saying that various politicians favoured the Co-op as buyers. I doubt if we will ever see the full discussions that went on. Watch them all run for cover now! 'It was strictly a matter for the boards of the relevant companies involved and the regulators'. Blah blah blah.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
But maybe Flowers just thought, I'm a banker now, this is the stuff they do, porn, drugs, drug-fuelled sex, it's context-driven, folks. Hopefully, they were ethical drugs.
[ 22. November 2013, 17:07: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
I imagine they would be fairtrade drugs, processed in artisanal laboratories. But the evidence seems to be that the Rev's lifestyle preceded his move to the banking sector.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
In the last couple of days I've come to realise that the steward in question, who has held important office in the Church in the past, will be well-acquainted with Rev. Flowers and may now be wondering whether things are as rosy as he was saying!
This highlights the whole Protection issue, of course: in our own Circuit, every single Local Preacher who had professional experience and often considerable expertise of protection issues refused to have anything to do with the new policy and were accordingly suspended en masse, and most of them have now abandoned Methodism in favour of other denominations, as indeed have Mrs Andras and I.
At the same time abuse can clearly flourish provided the abuser is prepared to tell a few porkies and people are prepared to look the other way - and as I was taught one very unpleasant August Sunday, the pressure is really on from the hierarchy not to rock the boat. Clever, isn't it.
My experience of Methodism is that the protection of children and vulnerable people has become an issue of increasing regulation over the past ten years. Perhaps Paul Flowers' infractions in this area occurred before the Methodist Church had a standardised response mechanism.
This isn't to excuse Methodists who turned a blind eye to Mr Flowers' behaviour, but IME one of the realities of mainstream church life is that it's not the done thing to get too close or to get involved in other people's personal affairs. And the desire (certainly in Methodism and probably elsewhere) to be non-judgmental about what people do outside church must make it easy not to expend too much energy on revealing someone else's issues, even if something seems a bit off.
As for the negative impact on Methodism, I don't think it'll be long-lasting. Most people are fairly ignorant about Methodism anyway, which has probably served to shield the denomination from specific criticism. Now, people may be a bit more ready to include Methodism in their general cynicism of institutional Christianity in general. But it all amounts to more or less the same thing.
[ 22. November 2013, 18:18: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
quote:
posted by Doc Tor
Like a great many chairmen and CEOs of companies, he was supposed to look the part and nothing else.
You must have worked for some very different companies from me. In my experience it wouldn't be too hard to take issue with their ethics, but they've all had a lot of knowledge about the company and its activities and I am sure they could have spoken intelligently to MPs about what the company was doing.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
My head of department couldn't tell you what the department was doing. I'm not entirely sure she knows what we're supposed to be doing. Why on earth should I believe that the CEO is going to be any better?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
My experience of Methodism is that the protection of children and vulnerable people has become an issue of increasing regulation over the past ten years. Perhaps Paul Flowers' infractions in this area occurred before the Methodist Church had a standardised response mechanism.
To be clear, there have been no suggestions that Mr Flowers partners were anything other than consenting adults.
quote:
And there is a whole lake of murk that is starting to bubble to the surface about the lending criteria employed over the 'loans' to the Labour Party,
Soft loans have been used by both parties in the past. With the Tories getting loans from entities registered in Belize, Antilles and the British Virgin Islands.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Let's see if I can summarise...
The former head of a charity trying to get people off drugs ends up trying to get drugs off people.
The next stage is that he'll shave his head and grow a goatee.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
While taking some delight from the sticky wicket that Labour are in on this one, I'm rather annoyed by the number of people (some of whom ought to know better) who keep referring to 'the Reverend Flowers'.
But he is the Reverend Flowers. He's an ordained minister. ISTM this fits into an overall picture of how assumptions are made about respectability. He's been an ordained minister for a long time and I suspect this has had considerable bearing on his other appointments.
Tangential clarification: Anglican't is referring to the use of "the Reverend" with family name alone as being incorrect usage. Regrettably, I think that Anglican't is fighting a losing battle on this one.
Yes, this is what I was getting at. I shall add this to all the other losing battles I find myself fighting.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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