Ship of Fools: Mix and match (faith & exercise)

Thread: Mix and match (faith & exercise) Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Alicïa (# 7668) on :

this article on the Beeb raises an issue I have thought about which is regarding mixing the best parts of other cultures/religions and to what extent other shipmates do this and to how much the options are available in their particular local area/church?

Not sure if I wanted a purgatorial debate (or even if there is one to be had) so I have posted it here.

The article itself is really just a starting point and raises it's own question "is yoga fundamentally a religious activity?"

That is a good question, which I personally feel the answer is no, but others may differ and I would like to expand that discussion to include Tai Chi & Qi Gong because of the buddhist roots of the martial artform.

Where I am coming from: I consider myself a Christian Universalist, but I believe there are some very good parts of Zen Buddism and Hindu religion especially the practice of QiGong/Tai-Chi & Yoga and I find it very good to do.

I go to Tai Chi classes (secular) and I really enjoy the exercise and to some extent there is a spiritual feeling to it. Not sure how it ties in to Christianity but it just makes me feel better. I do feel closer to God somehow, by feeling more at one with myself?

Do you take part in anything like this and does your church do anything like this? Any other thoughts you like on the subject it was just an interesting article for an open discussion really that's why I posted it in Heaven. [Smile]

[ 21. November 2013, 15:31: Message edited by: Alicïa ]

Posted by Alicïa (# 7668) on :

short version, do you do Yoga or Tai Chi or Qi Gong (or similar) and how do you feel it ties into your faith? (if at all relevant)
Also what do you feel about what the article has to say?

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

The focus on breathing.

This is a physical thing we can actually consciously control. I don't know if it is true, but I was once told that the ancient name for God, Yahweh, is an articulation of breathing. In on the "yah" and out on "weh". Gives something concrete to the idea of the "breath of God", and breathing a divine name. But I don't know if this is factual or a really nice made-up thing.

Posted by Alicïa (# 7668) on :

Yeah I can feel the sense of that. Certainly the mindfulness of breathing feels like we are tuned in to life itself, and perhaps therefore, because God breathes life into all things, we are then closer to God?

and yet

quote:

suspicions about yoga are shared by many Muslims, Christians and Jews around the world and relate to yoga's history as an ancient spiritual practice with connections to Hinduism and Buddhism.

If I was to kneel down does that mean I'm praying - or am I just kneeling?”

Last year, a yoga class was banned from a church hall in the UK. "Yoga is a Hindu spiritual exercise," said the priest, Father John Chandler. "Being a Catholic church we have to promote the gospel, and that's what we use our premises for." Anglican churches in the UK have taken similar decisions at one time or another. In the US, prominent pastors have called yoga "demonic".

One answer to the question of whether yoga really is a religious activity will soon be given by the Supreme Court in the country of its birth, India.

I am not really seeking a debate here about the rights and wrongs of a stance like the one above (or this would be in the wrong place), although I do personally find it astounding that some churches have taken such an extreme point of view on it.

Where's the harm spiritually in doing exercise that can make us well? and if something is a good thing to do it is a good thing to do regardless of which particular culture developed it?

Posted by Alicïa (# 7668) on :

I would also include meditation in the list. Is it a religious act and is it/can it be something that helps focus the mind towards God?

I realise now that I have probably not framed the OP very well for a discussion due to my eagerness to post it and it's probably something that has been discussed before in other ways too I guess.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

This would flourish in Purgatory, I think, so after some backstage consultation, I'm going to send it there. Please assume a suitable position and hold tight to your yoga mats, this thread is on its way.

Thanks

Ariel
Heaven Host

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I've been doing Zen meditation for 30 years. Well, we use some of the techniques (koans), but we don't include any teaching on Buddhism.

I do have friends who go full tilt, have a statue of the Buddha, prostrate themselves before it and so on, but my group do not do that. And we have a mix of people in the group - Christians, Buddhists, Sufis, atheists.

It's interesting also that we seem to find a common language, to discuss our experiences. In fact, if I use the word 'Christ', the others don't freak out, and they seem to understand it.

We do physical exercises as well!

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

I do Iyengar Yoga, this is an active yoga involving stretching and holding poses. Whilst I do find it good for both my mind and body I do not see anything spiritual in what I am doing. Despite my teacher referring to various aspects of the discipline throughout the session, the only time anything comes near to being 'religious' is occasionally when we bow our heads near the beginning she gives thanks for Mr Iyengar. I happily thank God for Mr Iyengar [Smile]

I read the BBC news article the other day and was baffled to read that some Christian groups were using Yoga and renaming poses to make them 'Christian'. What difference will that make? It is either a harmless physical activity or a rival religious practice, changing the names won't make any difference.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

I definitely know Christians who disapprove of yoga because it's seen as a religious practice (which it is, I just have no issue with said religious practice). In an old church of mine they would only let pilates lessons be held on the premises because pilates is a modern secular exercise. Tai chi and the like would definitely be out.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

What do Hindus think of non-Hindus using their disciplines for non-Hindu purposes?

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Yoga used to be part of religious practice, but as it is I don't see how it's more a religious practice than martial arts or dance. Any of them could be an excellent physical aspect of religious practice, but none need be, surely?

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Yoga used to be part of religious practice, but as it is I don't see how it's more a religious practice than martial arts or dance. Any of them could be an excellent physical aspect of religious practice, but none need be, surely?

Yoga is still used by Hindus as religious practice, though.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Well, as part of their religious practice. That is a very important distinction to me.

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
What do Hindus think of non-Hindus using their disciplines for non-Hindu purposes?

My Yoga teacher is not Hindu as far as I am aware but Mr Iyengar, who presumably is, has been happy to teach her in his institute in India, knowing that she will, in turn, teach other non-Hindus. It is obviously not a problem for him.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

Would anyone like to comment on the practise of liturgical dance in this context? I have absolutely no idea how that can be seen as anything but an individual's need to be seen doing something in a place where no individual should be claiming the attention.

Yoga at least offers the potential of encouraging a meditative state of mind, unlike "look-at-me" dancing.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Yoga used to be part of religious practice, but as it is I don't see how it's more a religious practice than martial arts or dance. Any of them could be an excellent physical aspect of religious practice, but none need be, surely?

AIUI yoga is just the Sanskrit word for "discipline" (and comes from the same Indo-European root as "yoke").

AIUI, what Westerners think of as yoga is actually hatha yoga, which is a discipline of the body, and which is traditionally supposed to lead to raja yoga, the discipline of the soul. I'm curious as to what Hindus think of isolating one form of yoga from the traditional whole.

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Would anyone like to comment on the practise of liturgical dance in this context? I have absolutely no idea how that can be seen as anything but an individual's need to be seen doing something in a place where no individual should be claiming the attention.

You could say the same about any choral piece that involves a soloist, though.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Or about clergy. Especially those giving the sermon/homily.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Yoga used to be part of religious practice, but as it is I don't see how it's more a religious practice than martial arts or dance. Any of them could be an excellent physical aspect of religious practice, but none need be, surely?
Yoga is still used by Hindus as religious practice, though.

Yes but also Buddhist and Bon (I also know that some claim Bon is sub-branch of Buddhism). I have practiced forms of yoga that come from those traditions as well as forms that come from the Hindu tradition.

Jengie

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Yoga used to be part of religious practice, but as it is I don't see how it's more a religious practice than martial arts or dance. Any of them could be an excellent physical aspect of religious practice, but none need be, surely?
Yoga is still used by Hindus as religious practice, though.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I'm curious as to what Hindus think of isolating one form of yoga from the traditional whole.

Very few of the Hindus I knew were that into yoga. In fact I can only think of one out of maybe 20 or 30 who was, although of course it is possible others were practitioners but never had the occasion to discuss it with me. But I'd be very surprised if any would express a strong opinion on how other people practice yoga.

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
What do Hindus think of non-Hindus using their disciplines for non-Hindu purposes?

I don't know the answer to this but I don't think it's all that important, in a sense. IMO Hindus don't own the concept of yoga just as Christians don't own the concept of the ritual use of bread and wine (deliberately picking on something that most Christians will hold very dear).

Given this, I also think it's fine in principle for Christians to use yoga and any other practices that originated in a different faith tradition, if they (the Christians) believe the practice can be of use in helping them practice their faith. I'm sure there's a lot that Christians could learn from other faith traditions, of which the emphasis on clarity of thought and mental self-discipline that yoga teaches (AIUI!) might be an example.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

It strikes me that the key point about any of these techniques, is in what direction are you pointing your heart when you are doing them.

If you point your heart towards Jesus Christ, and feel comfortable that what you are offering is compatible with faith in him, then it is good. If you point your heart towards Krishna, that is breaking the first commandment and bad. If you are emptying yourself so as to invite the Holy Spirit to fill you, that is good. If you are just emptying yourself, you lay yourself open to anything filling you. That is bad and dangerous.

It's a very good idea not to let anyone persuade you to chant a mantra that you don't know what it means.

On mantras, a good prayer is "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner'. If you feel uncomfortable with that as a mantra, it's a good idea, before God in prayer, to ask yourself why, and to take the answer seriously.

It really puzzles me that some people seem to put 'meditation' in opposition to Christian faith. Perhaps they assume Christian spirituality is restricted to what goes on in churches on Sunday mornings and mid week home groups. Christendom has a long and multifarious memory bank of different meditative traditions. I don't know enough about any of the other religions to pronounce on this, but of the world religions it's probably got the richest. There should be something to suit most people.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

I'd cautiously agree with Enoch's post above. There's obviously a hyper-spiritual approach that says that these practices are automatically non-benign because of the way in which the other religion defines them. OTOH it seems a little foolish to assume that what we do with our bodies fundamentally doesn't matter - we are 'animals' at one level, after all - and postures to affect our thoughts etc - there is a reason we kneel to pray.

Posted by wishandaprayer (# 17673) on :

quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I'd cautiously agree with Enoch's post above. There's obviously a hyper-spiritual approach that says that these practices are automatically non-benign because of the way in which the other religion defines them. OTOH it seems a little foolish to assume that what we do with our bodies fundamentally doesn't matter - we are 'animals' at one level, after all - and postures to affect our thoughts etc - there is a reason we kneel to pray.

I'm not sure I can agree with either of you. Sure, we are animals at some level, and maybe our posture does matter, but the fact is that many of the yoga poses and forms are adopted in other forms of exercise and sport. Does it, therefore, make those forms themselves an issue? Or only when placed within the context of Yoga.

If you argue the former, there's clearly a problem, we put many things off limit, and if you argue the latter, then there's clearly a problem, because it is doing exactly what you didn't want to do, chris, demonising by association.

I prefer to see it in naturalistic terms; it's an exercise and meditation form that was seen as beneficial for a number of reasons, and therefore has proliferated within the community it was founded in and beyond. That the community that founded it was/is a mystically minded community indicates the form it takes on. Other eastern cultures have this hallmark within their forms of exercise (including some martial arts).

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by wishandaprayer:
Does it, therefore, make those forms themselves an issue? Or only when placed within the context of Yoga.

Despite having done a number of martial arts over the years, I'm not sure I know enough to answer the question. I think there can be a danger of physiological effects of these sorts of exercises being mistaken for spiritual effects, which is slightly tangential.

quote:

If you argue the former, there's clearly a problem, we put many things off limit, and if you argue the latter, then there's clearly a problem, because it is doing exactly what you didn't want to do, chris, demonising by association.

I'm sure context is the key - but not just the context of Yoga in and of itself - but the wider context that Enoch refers to above.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by wishandaprayer:
I'm not sure I can agree with either of you. ...

It probably means I'm thick, or possibly just tired, but I'm not clear how, and therefore whether, you are actually disagreeing with me.

[ 27. November 2013, 22:56: Message edited by: Enoch ]

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