Ship of Fools: Hymns with no "music players"

Thread: Hymns with no "music players" Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

In a few churches I have been where there is only singing, and on Sunday we had that as our organ is getting fixed and we also did not have the piano and other ones used. What do you lot think of having that kind of singing hymns? And some different churches always insist they just have us all singing, not musician.

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

I've hardly ever experienced voices-only (a capella, is that how you spell it?) music in church but I like the idea very much. It could encourage the wider participation that I'm such a fan of, as it wouldn't just be those wielding an instrument or holding a mic who could start a song if they felt that's what God was prompting them to do (this is based on the 'some will have a song to bring' idea from 1 Corinthians 14, currently being debated in the Purgatory clergy / laity divide thread).

Obviously this particular point is only really relevant if there's scope in your style of church gathering for someone to lead a song spontaneously. Otherwise, I suppose the preference would always be to have one or more musicians, as long as they are sufficiently skilled to lead the music without being a distraction. I suppose...?

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

I've attended compline services with unaccompanied singing

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

It's something I associate strongly with the Stations of the Cross. The danger is of course that everything gets pitched in odd keys — if there's someone with perfect pitch there, use them.

Posted by *Leon* (# 3377) on :

I love it. You do need to think about ensuring people start on an appropriate pitch. If no-one has perfect pitch, get a pitch pipe or find someone who can can play the recorder well enough to give people a starting note.

Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :

I grew up in the Open Brethren and unaccompanied singing was the norm for Sunday morning worship. Going to other churches that used an organ felt weird.

My father was the one who started the hymns - selecting a tune and pitching them, this came naturally to him, and similarly for myself it is second nature to lead songs (maybe that is why I am so good at running 'baby bounce' and 'tot rock' sessions in the library as part of my job - singing unaccompanied nursery rhymes etc with mothers and toddlers!!)

For the hymn book used by the Brethren for their morning meetings in those days (The Believers Hymn book) was words only (well I never saw a music copy, put it like that), so it wasn't just a case of pitching music in front of you, but plucking a suitable tune out of nowhere and then finding a good starting note. The Brethren sang in harmony without any music in front of them. Maybe this is why I tend to make up my own harmonies, or rely on my memory, when I find myself in a church situation without a music copy. I can sing from music of course, being a good choir member, but I think its my Brethren background that enables me to manage just as well without it. Having the music is great though when an unknown hymn is indroduced.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Maybe try Taizé chants instead of/in addition to your regular hymns? Very easy to learn and obviously suit an a capella congregation.

Posted by Oferyas (# 14031) on :

I once served a Church in North Wales that had had no instrumentalist for seventeen years. We did quite well, since I know about 600 English tunes well enough to lead them, but my limited repertoire of Welsh tunes was a bit of a disappointment to them.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Of course a capella is our only mode. I find I don't miss the organ at all, and now when I hear hymns accompanied by organ, I find it harder to pick out the words, let alone hear the vocal harmonies.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

I've led singing in the absence of an organist. It is important if you're semi-skilled like me to make sure you stick with tunes you know well or get LOTS of practice. Once you're lost that's it without accompaniment to pull you back. Be wary of songs that rely heavily on the music to get rhythms correct, especially if (like me) you're not good at counting.

Posted by gog (# 15615) on :

Will quite often used recorded accompaniment music. However at one place where I do this often, the music is put on before the service starts. And then when singing, will often turn the music off after the first verse - once we have the idea of it. This seems to work well

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

We do a lot of a cappella hymn singing during Lent and Holy Week. Typically the choir will hum or "oooh" the first line or phrase, in parts, to set the tone and pace, and then start with the congregation at the start of the hymn. That requires (a) someone with a pitch pipe or tuning fork to get the choir to their respective first notes, (b) a choir competent of starting from those notes and giving a confident example for the congregation to follow, and (c) a congregation familiar enough with the hymn to sing with confidence.

So it's not impossible, but I would stick to familiar tunes, and if you don't have a choir, maybe get some confident singers together to practice the opener.

Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :

I only sing sans instrument. The only problem I have with it is that bad a cappella singing tends to be very bad.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

For a short time, in a previous church, we had no organist. And there were no other instrumentalists either. The vicar used to start us off singing a capella - he was very musical so it was always at a suitable pitch.

But I did find it very tiring, to listen to as well as do, for a whole service. So I breathed a huge sigh of relief when we were able to employ an organist again.

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :

On Sunday we had cover who came to the service specifically to play as the usual musician was on holiday. Unfortunately on switching on an ominous sound was heard and after that no sound came from the electronic beast despite all the lights being on.

Fortunately all my hymns had well known tunes (and not a choice of tunes for us to each try different ones!) And the singing was better that many little chapels with music to follow.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

I visited an RC church in York for Ascension about 10 years ago, and I just remembered that they were doing their best to sing a cappella, but ended up being a prime example of how not to do it. As far as I could tell, the congregation was just supposed to start singing at the appointed time. The problem was that you usually started out with two or three starting points, finally gathering about halfway through the first verse into one voice. So you definitely want someone to be the designated starter.

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

I remember a Sunday with a powercut during first verse of offertory hymn, choir went straight to harmony and we carried on.

Carys

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
I remember a Sunday with a powercut during first verse of offertory hymn, choir went straight to harmony and we carried on.

You've just reminded me about a lovely little church in the middle of nowhere in the Vale of Glamorgan — St Brynach's, Llanfrynach — that doesn't have electricity at all. It does have a pedal-the-blowers-like-fury organ-like contraption though, so it doesn't count for the purposes of this thread. But it is nice getting the Candlemas experience in July...

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
I remember a Sunday with a powercut during first verse of offertory hymn, choir went straight to harmony and we carried on.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

I've been in churches with no instrumentalist - not by theology just lack of any instrument in a borrowed space (back before keyboards you couldn't toss a piano in the car to bring to the gathering!) or lack of anyone willing/able to play hymns in public.

My sense is people readily sang along more fully than when there's an organ, or maybe it's just you can hear that everyone is singing, while with the organ you can't hear any voices except your own and maybe the person right next to you. So there's more of a sense of everyone is gladly singing, which invites singing along.

But if they are used to having an instrument they can be a tad shy about singing with confidence the first time or two without it.

I kinda think - but glad to be corrected by more experienced - upbeat songs work better when there is no rhythm coordinator, because slow songs can badly drag, especially if they are not well known?

I wonder if it's harder to introduce/rotate in new or rarely used songs? Unless you have some strong singers carrying the tune?

Posted by mrs whibley (# 4798) on :

Sometimes at our place we don't have an organist, and as long as the celebrant can be persuaded to choose the right hymns and start us off with the first line, we do fine. I now actually believe Hubbie when he says he worked for a Fisherman's Mission in the '70s - he can certainly belt out a hymn when required!

However, a few weeks back I was visiting a C of S church in the Hebrides which didn't have an organ, and appeared to be used to unaccompanied singing. It transpired that the Elder charged with leading us in Great is Thy Faithfulness didn't know the tune [Ultra confused]

By and large, the congregation went with the polite British approach, and by the third verse we all had his tune quite nicely.

I should add that this was not just an alternative tune (if there is such a thing to GITF), as it occasionally converged with the better-known tune, stayed on it for a line or two and then wandered off again [Smile]

Posted by Aileen (# 3594) on :

I have been in several Free Kirks in Scotland and they sing well with a few people to make sure they know the music to sing, and they often sing "Psalm" hymns that many people must know how to sing.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I kinda think - but glad to be corrected by more experienced - upbeat songs work better when there is no rhythm coordinator, because slow songs can badly drag, especially if they are not well known?

I might start referring to our choirmaster as the "rhythm coordinator" this fall, just to see how that goes over. [Biased]

I don't know that upbeat is necessary- you just need someone to keep things moving. "Happy Birthday to You" should be upbeat, but you can usually count on it turning into a dirge if someone doesn't insist on pushing the pace.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I kinda think - but glad to be corrected by more experienced - upbeat songs work better when there is no rhythm coordinator, because slow songs can badly drag, especially if they are not well known?
I might start referring to our choirmaster as the "rhythm coordinator" this fall, just to see how that goes over.

I don't know that upbeat is necessary- you just need someone to keep things moving. "Happy Birthday to You" should be upbeat, but you can usually count on it turning into a dirge if someone doesn't insist on pushing the pace.

That's kinda what I mean - If Happy Birthday risks turning into a dirge, a slow song risks dying out entirely. But I've been in congregations used to singing with no instrument and no choir, and they keep the tempo just fine with no leader.

Actually, my piano teacher might think "rhythm coordinator" an amusing but not inappropriate title for a director. He says a song is melody, harmony, and rhythm - and of the 3, rhythm is the most important in defining the piece of music.

Posted by Vertis (# 16279) on :

Very occasionally - once a year, perhaps - we find ourselves without piano, flute or guitar. A couple of years ago we experimented with a CD of worship songs, but it felt so deflated we arrived at the same conclusion as many here - you need a strong voice to start the song at a reasonable pitch and a decent tempo.

That's hard to do though - particularly the pitch. Because I sing regularly I find myself pitching higher than others can sing, so I have to write little notes to myself - "middle" "low-to-mid" etc when I am leading on those occasions.

But you're right - you can hear the congregation so much more without instruments drowning them out.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

It is actually the range of voice that you need to be choose for leading not the musical skill. If you gave me marks for musical skill, I would be in the lower half of the class. Yet I have been asked and successfully pitched. Then my voice is a low alto and therefore I fall pretty much in the middle of the range. My pitch therefore tends to work.

So maybe the role is not to choose a musician to lead but a women with a low voice or a man with a high voice. Remember once the pitch is set the congregation take over. The pitch setter does not lead the singing.

Jengie

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

I attended church in Caerphilly on Sunday. I noticed that the organist gave a very strong lead in the hymns and the sung parts of the Mass (there was only a very small choir due to holidays and several of the items were led by a cantor rather than the choir). Due to the strong organ lead, the congregation drew confidence to sing out their parts with greater volume. It made me think that, in a church without a skilled organist or pianist, even the ability to strongly pick out the top line (or even the first few phrases of the top line) would assist in people beginning with confidence. And once they get started, it's easier to continue.

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Due to the strong organ lead, the congregation drew confidence to sing out their parts with greater volume. It made me think that, in a church without a skilled organist or pianist, even the ability to strongly pick out the top line (or even the first few phrases of the top line) would assist in people beginning with confidence. And once they get started, it's easier to continue.

Yes, this chimes with my own experience (albeit with a usually guitar-led music band). People need to know when to come in and what's happening next in a song, especially if there's any doubt about e.g. how long the interval between verses is.

So if your having songs without any musicians, then I think you need either a clear 'leader' for each song or for the songs to have a clear known-by-everyone structure (by which I mean no verses that are occasionally left out, no repeated choruses and so on).

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
So if your having songs without any musicians, then I think you need either a clear 'leader' for each song or for the songs to have a clear known-by-everyone structure (by which I mean no verses that are occasionally left out, no repeated choruses and so on).

Aha, that comment helps me. I'm in a new "worship music" group and floundering with the music more than I expected to, I think you've pointed to the problem - unexpected repeats.

We have a printed sheet of music but sometimes the "worship leader" (I'm trying to figure out a polite way to suggest he refer to himself as the "music leader") repeats a last line or repeats a chorus or jumps back to a previous section and I'm lost for a moment.

Identifying that as the problem means I can *ask* if he has a structure we can notate in the booklets of song lyrics being made for the congregation. If not, we may need to warn the congregation the music may move around instead of progressing as written. I think Episcopalians are used to more predictable structure than non-denominational "worship leaders" (which is his background).

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Identifying that as the problem means I can *ask* if he has a structure we can notate in the booklets of song lyrics being made for the congregation. If not, we may need to warn the congregation the music may move around instead of progressing as written. I think Episcopalians are used to more predictable structure than non-denominational "worship leaders" (which is his background).

Heh heh, I imagine this chap would be reluctant to put any notations in the song booklets! I should think he'd rather it all be 'led by the Spirit' (as he - and I, to be fair - would describe it) with repeats and what have you being decided only during the service.

Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Aileen:
I have been in several Free Kirks in Scotland and they sing well with a few people to make sure they know the music to sing, and they often sing "Psalm" hymns that many people must know how to sing.

As someone who grew up Free Kirk - there is a very high standard of singing most of the time. If you can't sing then you really know about it! Sadly, I really can't, but I occasionally look around my very full evangelical church in London and think "if this was Free Kirk your singing would raise the roof, why doesn't it?". Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the music but I do wonder if it stops people singing out as much as they might if it wasn't there.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I can *ask* if he has a structure we can notate in the booklets of song lyrics being made for the congregation. If not, we may need to warn the congregation the music may move around instead of progressing as written. I think Episcopalians are used to more predictable structure than non-denominational "worship leaders" (which is his background).
Heh heh, I imagine this chap would be reluctant to put any notations in the song booklets! I should think he'd rather it all be 'led by the Spirit' (as he - and I, to be fair - would describe it) with repeats and what have you being decided only during the service.

Tee hee, he's wanting people to raise their arms when singing. We'll see. The mainline charismatic movement started in the Episcopal church. Full circle?

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :

One of the loveliest musical experiences I've had in church actually happened because the organist's purse got stolen (from right by the organ!) just before the service. While she was in the office making calls to cancel her credit cards we carried on mostly a cappella. Having a choir to lead us helped a lot.

We weren't entirely without instruments, though. One parishioner who's a violin teacher happened to have her violin with her and joined in on one hymn, and someone else played the piano during our closing hymn.

Posted by not entirely me (# 17637) on :

I really like it and have experienced it for the first time on a couple of occasions recently. The only thing is I'm not convinced that the rest of the congregation will have appreciated by inability to sing in tune. I can read music well enough to name all the notes but that doesn't mean I can sing them!

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Scots lass:

quote:
Originally posted by Aileen:
I have been in several Free Kirks in Scotland and they sing well with a few people to make sure they know the music to sing, and they often sing "Psalm" hymns that many people must know how to sing.
As someone who grew up Free Kirk - there is a very high standard of singing most of the time. If you can't sing then you really know about it! Sadly, I really can't, but I occasionally look around my very full evangelical church in London and think "if this was Free Kirk your singing would raise the roof, why doesn't it?". Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the music but I do wonder if it stops people singing out as much as they might if it wasn't there.

And the ordinary Kirk I grew up in had a musician and an organ and so we sang the Psalms always at the beginning.

Also many Kirks have the music in their Hymns and Psalms and that helps too!

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Scots lass:

quote:
Originally posted by Aileen:
I have been in several Free Kirks in Scotland and they sing well with a few people to make sure they know the music to sing, and they often sing "Psalm" hymns that many people must know how to sing.
As someone who grew up Free Kirk - there is a very high standard of singing most of the time. If you can't sing then you really know about it! Sadly, I really can't, but I occasionally look around my very full evangelical church in London and think "if this was Free Kirk your singing would raise the roof, why doesn't it?". Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the music but I do wonder if it stops people singing out as much as they might if it wasn't there.

I love Free Church singing, with a precentor "lining out". Attending a Free Church service is a bit of a guilty pleasure for me, because I don't agree with the Free Church in many respects; but IME Free Church services are excellent.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

This is awesome.

Posted by gog (# 15615) on :

I've just been reminded in reading this thread again that in some of the churches I care for we have some one who has the role of "Codwr Canu", the Singing Raiser/leader. This is a person who leads the sings and keeps the speed and so forth, eve when there is no instrument.

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

A few weeks ago I'd chosen May the God of hope go with us every day for the final song, arrived late at Matarangi and couldn't contact the organist until Friday night, but I assumed she had the music because I'd used it before. She didn't, as I learned 15 minutes before the service. Our sound system man looked for it on the internet during the service, and would have played it if he'd found a good version, but there wasn't a satisfactory one. So I sang a verse in my ageing-no-longer-soprano (it's a pretty simple tune) and the congregation managed.
The minister has the book, but of course I was there because she wasn't.
It can be a very moving experience when the congregation is singing a rousing hymn and the pianist lets them finish a capella. That can bring tears to the eyes.

GG

Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
]I love Free Church singing, with a precentor "lining out". Attending a Free Church service is a bit of a guilty pleasure for me, because I don't agree with the Free Church in many respects; but IME Free Church services are excellent.

They don't do lining out for the Psalms in English and I'm not from a Gaelic speaking family so (er, somewhat to my shame) I don't think I'd actually heard it done before I clicked on your link... FC singing can be amazing though, especially in a full church.

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I love Free Church singing, with a precentor "lining out". Attending a Free Church service is a bit of a guilty pleasure for me, because I don't agree with the Free Church in many respects; but IME Free Church services are excellent.

Dowanvale Church in Glasgow puts whole services online. I just finished listening to one, with the robust unison singing of the psalms.

Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :

I was once told that a capella singing is the hardest way to sing.To do so in a congregation must take some people with a lot of skill.
I know in some places in the Appalacian mountains of America they sing sans intruements by a leader singing the line then everyone repeats it. Or, in the same area the use of shaped notes very down home sounding, and very beautiful.
But I am an bit old fashioned and like hymns with organs , also covers up my lack of musical talent!!

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

There's no reason why we can't do it. We all do it with "Happy Birthday To You" fairly regularly!

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

A few years ago a friend's church had a series of power cuts: first time it happened it caused pandemonium, organist flapping about like a headless chicken.

Friend (plus spouse) decided time had come for them to "come out" as singers and, with organist's agreement, joined the very limited choir and they all sang unaccompanied.

A few months later, the church was re-wired which meant 3 months of unaccompanied singing

It was a minor revoluytion: the congregation liked the voluntary hymn-singing rehearsals that were held on Saturday mornings, the organist and choir gained confidence and members and they now have no problem with singing unaccompanied - Missa de Angelis at communions and responses and Amens at evensong.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
I was once told that a capella singing is the hardest way to sing.To do so in a congregation must take some people with a lot of skill.
I know in some places in the Appalacian mountains of America they sing sans intruements by a leader singing the line then everyone repeats it. Or, in the same area the use of shaped notes very down home sounding, and very beautiful.
But I am an bit old fashioned and like hymns with organs , also covers up my lack of musical talent!!

Firstly did you note North East Quines reference to lining out. That is what you are describing when one person sings and line and the congregation sing it back.

Secondly it is not the people singing unaccompanied who are innovative; it is those singing to an organ. That only dates back to eighteenth or nineteenth century. Unaccompanied goes at least back to sixteenth. I am almost certain lining out predates the organ.

Jengie

[ 02. September 2013, 12:26: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
We all do it with "Happy Birthday To You" fairly regularly!

Where I live, everyone starts on a different note, and continues in their own key. It sounds like - something.

And a third don't sing, uncomfortable being heard.

Anyway, I've been wondering if "modern worship music" can be done with no instruments. Listening on YouTube, a lot seem dependent on instrumental short interludes, and on drums to give it forward pace even while the sung words proceed slowly.

Are hymns intentionally written to be instruments optional? Or are there hymns that really need an instrument to make the music work as music?

(I'm trying to learn more about music styles, what are characteristics of each style, what makes different styles work.)

Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

Anyway, I've been wondering if "modern worship music" can be done with no instruments. Listening on YouTube, a lot seem dependent on instrumental short interludes, and on drums to give it forward pace even while the sung words proceed slowly. [/QB]

I can attest to the fact that modern worship songs can be sung unaccompanied. It does tend to sound slower and they usually are treated as hymns in that they are not repeated over and over as seems to be the custom in evangelical circles.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
I can attest to the fact that modern worship songs can be sung unaccompanied. .

Yep. Often seen it done.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
I can attest to the fact that modern worship songs can be sung unaccompanied. .
Yep. Often seen it done.

Thanks, I've only see it unaccompanied the 4th time through the chorus. Nice to know what the real flexibilities are.

Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :

Acapella singing in four-part harmony has always been the tradition among Mennonites. The Mennonite Church I attend (I'm still a Quaker [Smile]

) does a fabulous job. I don't read music, but after a few weeks, knew my part.

I noticed that there is a thread about eliminating the doxology. Among Mennonites, there is a version of the doxology known simply as #118 (that's the number in the Menno hymnal) and it blows the roof off!

Can't get enough of this.

sabine

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