Ship of Fools: Liberal Catholic: Young Rite

Thread: Liberal Catholic: Young Rite Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :

I recall at least some of our shipmates being associated with the Liberal Catholic movement. Perhaps they could shed light on the following liturgical inquiry. The Liberal Catholic use Mass consisted of two forms: a shorter one, more theosophical in its content, and a longer form, more like the Tridentine Mass. Recently I came upon an alternative use: the "Young Rite". Apart from a traditional form for the Eucharist, the Young Rite provides online texts for a "Circle Form" of the Mass as well as a "Universal Form". The latter is.well, interesting, beginning with the priest invoking, "Hail Brethren of the Deva Host, come to our aid. Give us your fiery devic power as we give you our human love" and the salutation, "The Source be with us." This certainly seems more radically theosophic than any of the earlier liturgies of Liberal Catholic use. Any of the Ship brethren familiar with this recent Liberal Catholic Use?

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Liberal Catholic tends in the UK to be used by CofE people to describe themselves if they like high church liturgy but aren't Forward in Faith, i.e. sacerdotal but with women, and fairly strictly Common Worship. I'm not aware of any denomination here with that or a similar name, or with its own rite.

The liturgy you describes sounds like something from a cod science fiction film.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

The 'Liberal Catholics' are indeed a denomination, although I'm not really sure what of. Some are explicitly Christians, while others can't really be described as such. One particular feature is that they believe sacramental energy is transmitted electrically so their vestments have to have wires sewn into them, to act as conductors. Or something.

The rite described appears... a bit odd, even for them!

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

If you accidentally summoned Deva Indra and had metal wires running down your clothes it could be fairly tragic.....but possibly quite amusing for onlookers.

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

A load of their stuff is available online. It seems to range from being totally unremarkable to slightly odd in a sweet kind of way (I mean, singing O Come All Ye Faithful in the Eucharistic Prayer...) to some sort of astrology.

Their roots seem to go back to one of those 19th/early-20th century wandering bishops, which is a curious mess to say the least.

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
slightly odd in a sweet kind of way (I mean, singing O Come All Ye Faithful in the Eucharistic Prayer...)

A church I used to go to used to do that during Christmastide, in place of "the mystery of faith".

Thurible

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
A load of their stuff is available online. It seems to range from being totally unremarkable to slightly odd in a sweet kind of way (I mean, singing O Come All Ye Faithful in the Eucharistic Prayer...)

Oh yes, I'd forgotten that part!

See also previous threads on the subject
here... and

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

There's a whole chapter in Peter Anson's Bishops at Large on the movement.

And I have a pocket missal somewhere.

And those Anglicans who like to call themselves "liberal catholic" might like to remember that the LLC got there first.

(I'm Anglican, gay, accept episcopally ordained women priests as valid, happy with the right options from CW and reckon I'm catholic. I'd never call myself liberal, although others would.)

PS I've sung O come all ye faithful after the dominical words in my time, and not in particularly ultramontane churches.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

There used to be a little LCC fane in our fair city, but it's been used by the British Orthodox Church for some time now. I rather thought the LCC had died out in the UK.

Ian J.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

There's still a small outfit on the go in Birmingham (UK) I think. And they definitely have a church in Brisbane (Aus), as I have walked past it. The USA is probably the place to look further.

A rather odd sort of syncretism. I note that despite the name, some of these distinctly fissiparous churches will not ordain women except as deaconesses.

Posted by Sarum Sleuth (# 162) on :

There was certainly a Liberal Catholic Church in Putney until comparatively recently, although I have no idea whether it is still open.

SS

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I've seen a Liberal Catholic church in Birmingham. It's a very small building, but it's well-kept with flowers outside, so it's obviously in use.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

According to Peter Anson, the Liberal Catholic Church dates from 1915, when Archbishop Mathew of the Old Roman Catholic Church (sic) ordered those of his clergy who were members of the Theosophical Society (based in India under Mrs Annie Besant) to resign from it. They refused and got two of their numbers consecrated as bishop by the deposed Bishop of St Pancras. The second Presiding Bishop was an Australian, Charles Leadbetter, who was based in Sydney.

In his 700 page The Science of the Sacraments, Bishop Leadbetter stated that “the value of the biretta is of the same character of a cork in a bottle – to prevent evaporation and consequent waste. Such force as may be aroused with the Priest should be accommodated within him, and be discharged for the benefit of his (sic) people and not allowed to escape fruitlessly into higher planes as is the natural tendency.” Gothic Revival chasubles were better for “the flow of spiritual forces” than baroque ones.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
.... One particular feature is that they believe sacramental energy is transmitted electrically so their vestments have to have wires sewn into them, to act as conductors. Or something. ....

I've heard of some fairly weird things in my time, but I've never heard that one before.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Venbede, your post seems to have been simultaneous with mine. Is a bishop who takes the name of his see from a station obliged to choose a station called after a saint, or would King's Cross have been permissible? And is it only a biretta that prevents spiritual evaporation or would a straw boater do just as well? Perhaps wire pyramids on the head such as I saw recently in an OU podcast would have the same effect.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I'm going to try to post this scan of two LCC bishops from Photobucket.

Here goes:

A bit shorter....

[good attempt, but link needed shortening! Djo]

[ 31. August 2013, 07:26: Message edited by: dj_ordinaire ]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

The link worked for me.....

+Wedgwood's mitre has to be the most mity mitre ever to come out of the Mity Mitre factory in Mitretown..... [Eek!]

Ian J.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Glad to hear that, bf.

The Liberal Catholic bishops are positively restrained in their use of exotic titles compared to others in Anson's book. The mitre is something though, isn't it? Apparently, Bishop Leadbetter thought the lappets at the back of the mitre were needed to let the astral power flow from the mitre down into the cope and then out.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Trying to google particuarly exotic titles, I came up with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesia_Gnostica

I haven't had a chance to assess it in detail.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

And good stuff here

http://magonia.haaan.com/2010/bishops-on-the-loose-danny-osullivan/

Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :

I appreciate the information on the "traditionalist" Liberal Catholics but I was concentrating on this "Young Rite" use. Among its unique features is the acceptance for ordination of anybody who desires such (using a somewhat traditional rite of ordination by the laying on of hands of those the Use considers to be in episcopal Apostolic Succession). If you check out Wikipedia on Liberal Rite, you will find all requisite links. The Liberal Catholic St. Alban's Press publishes their material along with the more traditional Old (Fogey) Use Liberal Catholic material. Their liturgical booklets include choreography for the rites, including episcopal ceremonies, which, as an admirer of Blessed Percy, I find of particular interest. The newer liturgical texts themselves IMHO are closer to Crowley's Gnostic Mass than to Tridentine use (and certainly not overtly anti-Christian as Crowley). If I may re-coin a phrase, the Young Rite folks seem to be advocates of High Church Episcohinduism.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
There's still a small outfit on the go in Birmingham (UK) I think. And they definitely have a church in Brisbane (Aus), as I have walked past it. The USA is probably the place to look further.

A rather odd sort of syncretism. I note that despite the name, some of these distinctly fissiparous churches will not ordain women except as deaconesses.

I can't find a phone listing for the Brisbane church, but there's one in Gordon, about 5 km or so from here. It adjoins St John's Anglican, one which by US standards would be very MOTR. There's another in East Sydney, in a street otherwise very full of red lights (or once was). There's another listed in Melbourne.

Posted by sonata3 (# 13653) on :

http://www.youngrite.org/what-is-it/the-beginning/

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

There was a Liberal Catholic church in Austin, Texas back in the early 1970s when I was a student at the University of Texas. At some point it apparently went more orthodox and became - in a different location within the city - an Old Roman Catholic church. That in turn became several years later some sort of Orthodox church, not one in unequivocal communion with any historic Orthodox patriarchate. This takes us up into the early years of the present Millenium. No idea what has become of them in subsequent years.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
http://www.youngrite.org/what-is-it/the-beginning/

Here was I thinking it was a liturgy written by Brigham Young.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

Try this http://www.lccgrail.org/ - their HQ is in Bideford, North Devon.

A strange bunch IME and IMHO - not exactly mainstream Christianity

Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Try this http://www.lccgrail.org/ - their HQ is in Bideford, North Devon.

A strange bunch IME and IMHO - not exactly mainstream Christianity

They believe in 'the ancient Christian doctrine of reincarnation' ???

Nope, not quite mainstream. [Smile]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Try this http://www.lccgrail.org/ - their HQ is in Bideford, North Devon.

A strange bunch IME and IMHO - not exactly mainstream Christianity

You are being considerably more eirenic than I would be if I weren't taking the mickey, Mark.

Anson links them with the Rudolf Steiner inspired Christian Community, as another theosophical version of (Catholic Christianity).

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Patrick:
Any of the Ship brethren familiar with this recent Liberal Catholic Use?

Sorry for the gossipy tangents, Patrick.

The straight forward answer to your question would appear to be "No", as many shipmates are not even aware what the LCC is/was.

I've just found a link: http://www.youngrite.org/official/

So Young Rite isn't a form of service of the LCC, but another seperate body. It ill becomes an Anglican to criticise others for schism, but these alternative, all-you-need-is-love bodies do seen extraordinarily fissiparous. Isn't unity with those you don't see eye to eye with an expression of love?

Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :

I'm vaguely familiar with the LCC (and theosophy) as part of family history. Bishop Wedgwood was a second cousin of one of my ancestors and I suspect one of my great aunts was involved (and her mother translated some of Steiner's works into English).

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Try this http://www.lccgrail.org/ - their HQ is in Bideford, North Devon.

A strange bunch IME and IMHO - not exactly mainstream Christianity
They believe in 'the ancient Christian doctrine of reincarnation' ???

Nope, not quite mainstream.

Ok. I'll stop being disingenuous and I'll be honest : not mainstream at all from what I saw at first hand.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

When I was in a Steinerite community (and learnt there a deep respect for Christian orthodoxy as giving justice to the complexity of life) the texts I heard cited to support reincarnation were those about John the Baptist being Elijah, eg Matthew 17.12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed.

Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :

The church in Birmingham, UK, was down the road from where I grew up; as in a five-minute walk past the mosque, the C of E parish church and the Christadelphians.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
The church in Birmingham, UK, was down the road from where I grew up; as in a five-minute walk past the mosque, the C of E parish church and the Christadelphians.

Not very far from me, then!

I'm surprised that that church has been around for so long. I thought it was fairly new, but then I don't go down that road very often. If they've kept going for many years with a small congregation that's rather impressive.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Try this http://www.lccgrail.org/ - their HQ is in Bideford, North Devon.

A strange bunch IME and IMHO - not exactly mainstream Christianity
They believe in 'the ancient Christian doctrine of reincarnation' ???

Nope, not quite mainstream.

Not mainstream Christianity, but probably mainstream Gnosticism.

Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
The church in Birmingham, UK, was down the road from where I grew up; as in a five-minute walk past the mosque, the C of E parish church and the Christadelphians.
Not very far from me, then!

I'm surprised that that church has been around for so long. I thought it was fairly new, but then I don't go down that road very often. If they've kept going for many years with a small congregation that's rather impressive.

I've checked out the latest street view on Google Maps; I have a recollection that the building used to be hidden behind a solid (blue?) wooden fence. Strange what you remember!

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Patrrick - if you're still here - you asked a question in your first post which none of us have bothered to answer. I apologise.

I've looked up the Young Rite eucharists from the links and notice the following:

There are no scripture readings and absolutely no reference to the cross. The Rudolf Steinerites who I lived with never referred to the crucifixion but to "the mystery of Calvary". The squalid and cruel realities of capital punishment being swept under the carpet.

Young Rite doesn't even refer to the cross in a euphemism: far from remembering the Lord's death until he comes again (which I doubt many Anglican family communion attendees realise is what they are doing) their eucharist is only a means of personal spiritual strengthening.

The say how inclusive they are (without using the word) without dogma etc, but in fact they are exclusive in so far as they are giving access to esoteric knowledge for the initiates.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

Esoteric sums liberal catholics up really. Theosophy is the closest you'll get to their doctrine - but it's pretty much a case of you can believe anything as long as god or the goddess pops up soemwhere

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Actually, they avoid the use of the word "God", as did the Steinerites.

I also haven't noticed any intercessory prayer for others.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

The Young Rite site says this:

quote:
The Young Rite also ordains individuals to the priesthood for private services. These persons are not authorised to celebrate the public services of the Young Rite, nor may they in any way represent the Young Rite.

That's an interesting division.

Back in the late 1960s the Universal Life Life church used to ordain anyone by mail who sent in $5 or $10 (I forget which) -- for $25 one could be a bishop. I don't think they placed any restrictions as to what kind of services their ordinands could preside at. And i imagine they were happy to have them represent the ULC -- more publicity and more money being sent in!

Decades ago, I was at a wedding in a park in Atlanta one Easter morning and presided over by a random dude who was a ULC minister.

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Back in the late 1960s the Universal Life Life church used to ordain anyone by mail who sent in $5 or $10 (I forget which) -- for $25 one could be a bishop. I don't think they placed any restrictions as to what kind of services their ordinands could preside at. And i imagine they were happy to have them represent the ULC -- more publicity and more money being sent in!

They're still around, but now, as all good things in the internet age are, it's free.

Posted by BCP Believer (# 17815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
The 'Liberal Catholics' are indeed a denomination, although I'm not really sure what of. Some are explicitly Christians, while others can't really be described as such. One particular feature is that they believe sacramental energy is transmitted electrically so their vestments have to have wires sewn into them, to act as conductors. Or something.

The rite described appears... a bit odd, even for them!

Do most C of E clergy secretly belong to this religion?

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BCP Believer:
Do most C of E clergy secretly belong to this religion?

No. Any more stupid and insulting questions?

Posted by BCP Believer (# 17815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:
Originally posted by BCP Believer:
Do most C of E clergy secretly belong to this religion?
No. Any more stupid and insulting questions?

It was a joke. Obviously struck a nerve though.

Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :

Thanks, VenBede, for your research and considered judgments. I wonder what the Young Rite practitioners found to be so confining in the Old Rite. But once you get involved in esoteric Christianity, it seems, there are no limits to creativity. As you noted, no scripture readings occur in the Young Rite, apparently no liturgical year either, which I guess follows if you are more attached to the mystical disembodied aspects of the Aeon and less concerned with time and the body, including the Incarnation and events of Our Lord's life. The "Church of St. Mary and St. John" is even more esoteric, with the Epistle coming from sources like St. Peter's letters to St. Mary Magdalene. The consecration of one of the bishops for this group is displayed on YouTube, to the musical accompaniment of an endless repetition of the first two verses of Pange Lingua. Peter Hanson would have a field day were he around today to update his Bishops at Large volume.
If it is not too far from the topic, did Steiner's Christian Community have a fixed liturgy?

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BCP Believer:

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:
Originally posted by BCP Believer:
Do most C of E clergy secretly belong to this religion?
No. Any more stupid and insulting questions?
It was a joke. Obviously struck a nerve though.

Yes, you could say it struck a nerve in the sense that being the on-going target of stupidly misleading allegations does get old after a while. (I'm not CofE but the TEC gets the same shite.)

The above comment is on the content of the post, not on the poster as a person.

[ 03. September 2013, 22:06: Message edited by: malik3000 ]

Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :

Whoops, caught myself: Peter Anson, that is.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Patrick - There are references to liturgical festivals in the Young Rite Advent, Christmas, Baptism, Transfiguration, Easter which seem to be commemorated at every eucharist.

The Anthroposophists (ie the Steinerites, to call them what they call themselves) certainly kept the four principal festivals of the Christian year. I was rather surprised what they were: the Summer and Winter solstices (St John and Christmas) and the Autumn and Spring equinoxes (St Michael and Easter).

To give them their credit their celebration of Advent was rather moving. Needless to say they had real candles on the Christmas tree and wouldn't dream of putting it up before the afternoon of Christmas Eve. Good for them.

[ 04. September 2013, 10:04: Message edited by: venbede ]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Patrick:
If it is not too far from the topic, did Steiner's Christian Community have a fixed liturgy?

Difficult to say. The church branch of Anthroposophy is the Christian Community and they would have some sort of liturgy.

http://www.thechristiancommunity.co.uk/

But the community I stayed in only had a visit from a priest once, when a young Down's Syndrome girl died. I think he vested in some sort of Lutheran style garments. (They were very Germanic.)

Otherwise they had a chapel and regular Sunday services for the senior children but would have been led by lay people. It was probably a very tasteful hymn sandwich (lots of Bach preludes played on the lyre).

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

The Steinerites certainly read the Bible and endlessly sang from the Oxford Book of Carols in the runup to Christmas.

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