Ship of Fools: Doxology should be eliminated?

Thread: Doxology should be eliminated? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

I was intrigued tonight to hear the music worship leader say he wants to cut out the doxology. He says it is inappropriate and that all TEC clergy he knows agree that it doesn't fit into the liturgy - he described the mis-fit as "first we sing this peppy song then we go kill Jesus."

Protesting the inclusion of the doxology is new to me but I haven't thought about it and I'm not personally liturgical so I wouldn't know.

Is this a common thought?

Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

Yes have not heard the Doxology around TEC for years. I for one have no problem praising God any time or place. Sigh.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

It's a common thought, and I've never been able to quite grasp why we are supposed to chuck it. Everyone belting out Old Hundreth is beautiful, and everyone but the liturgists likes it.

Posted by Daydreamer (# 3954) on :

I converted from Presbyterianism to Episcopalianism about 15 years ago, and about the only thing I miss is singing the Doxology. Do Episcopalians sing it? If so, I'm going to push it at my parish. So lovely and joyful!

Posted by Arpeggi (# 17487) on :

Pardon my ignorance but by "Doxology" are you referring to the Gloria Patri? Or something different? I'm guessing the latter.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

Our TEC shack sings the doxology ("Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow...") to Old 100th, as, I think, does every TEC place I have visited.

I don't find the argument expressed by Belle's "music worship leader" at all compelling.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

Olaf, finding himself in a state of horror for defense of the Doxology:

Using the same offertory for decades can become a tad annoying, but the Doxology is certainly not "inappropriate."

How does it fit into the liturgy?

quote:
BCP1979:
During the Offertory, a hymn, psalm, or anthem may be sung.

Think of it as an 'ordinary offertory' as opposed to a 'proper offertory.'

Liturgically speaking, singing anything to do with Praise or Bless is appropriate at the time of an offering. As everybody who is anybody knows, offertory prayers have a long tradition of starting with the word 'Blessed,' and a simple perusal of historic and modern Jewish liturgy will show that 'Bless' and 'Praise' go hand in hand.

If the organist is bored, I'd suggest shaking it up a bit by singing it to LASST UNS ERFREUEN in Eastertide, and perhaps to TALLIS' CANON somewhere else during the year. Or likewise, one could use a plainsong melody from the ancient office hymns of yore.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Daydreamer:
I converted from Presbyterianism to Episcopalianism about 15 years ago, and about the only thing I miss is singing the Doxology. Do Episcopalians sing it? If so, I'm going to push it at my parish. So lovely and joyful!

Yeah, but it's one of those things certain liturgists think we have to get rid of.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Our TEC shack sings the doxology ("Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow...") to Old 100th, as, I think, does every TEC place I have visited.

Yes, that one. Every TEC church I've ever been in sings it.

I was surprised to hear it protested, but maybe he thinks it doesn't belong in a service that is switching to "contemporary worship music."

[ 05. September 2013, 03:36: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]

Posted by NatDogg (# 14347) on :

While I am a liturgy nut myself and respect liturgy nuts and those who know "better," this is one of this things to me that seems rather silly. Why on earth would you mess with it -- if people like it, sing heartily, and it's not really causing any trouble? The liturgy is full of contradictions: on Easter Sunday itself we proclaim "Christ is risen" and then go on to "kill Jesus" again as Belle's musician friend says. Sigh. . . . sometimes people just like to "improve" things for improvement's sake. . . [Confused]

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

I'm wondering what the music leader's glib "...then we go kill Jesus" comment is supposed to mean.

In general, it sounds like the music leader could use a bit of study of the liturgy and its music.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
He says it is inappropriate and that all TEC clergy he knows agree that it doesn't fit into the liturgy - he described the mis-fit as "first we sing this peppy song then we go kill Jesus."

Sounds like a candidate for the lame liturgical excuses thread from a while back- be careful any time someone informs you that everyone they know agrees with them. We have an anthem and a hymn but no Doxology at my place, but the anthem and hymn are usually peppy; see how the organist reacts when you tell him he can't do "I Was Glad" as the anthem because "first we sing this peppy song then we go kill Jesus."

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Pond differences again! [Snore]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Utterly confused. I don't know why that particular verse from Thomas Ken's hymn is so special. Lots of hymns have doxologies, not just that one.

I don't understand why an ascription of praise to the Trinity is described as "killing Jesus".

Since all Christian worship is based on the crucifixion and resurrection, I'd have thought it more appropriate to omit the bouncy song that omits any reference to it.

Presumably the objection is to some special use of the verse in question which is not explained here.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

Our (UMC) church does what I presume is the norm in North American Protestant circles. We sing this hymn to the tune of Old Hundredth at the end of the collection, as the offering plates are being brought to the front.

Venebede, the bit about "killing Jesus" has to do with the sacrifice of the mass, I believe. The offertory precedes the Eucharistic prayer. The whole excuse is silly, in my opinion.

And just in case anyone is confused about the words:

Praise God from whom all blessings flow,
Praise him all creatures here below;
Praise him above ye heavenly hosts,
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
Amen.

(Someone mentioned the Gloria Patri upthread. IME that's sung after the Apostles' Creed in Methodist churches, but in mine it's said or sung after the Psalm, where it belongs.)

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

In Britain often/usually sung to "Tallis' Canon" or "Morning Hymn", though there was a vogue 30 or so years ago of singing the version by Jimmy Owens from "Come Together" - now doesn't that take you back?

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

So you normally sing "Praise God from whom all blessings flow..." at EVERY Offertory? In which case I can see a case for using other stuff for the sake of variety. I love the Old Hundredth but, if I sang it every week, I think I would get fed up with it.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

It has never occurred to me to become fed up with it. Does that make me less of a Christian? A bad person?

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Some places mix it up every now and then. We sing it to Lasst Uns Erfeuen half the time at my place. But Old Hundreth is the gold standard, and I dare say it's one of the few tunes that people still bother to learn the harmony.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I don't mean to suggest anyone singing it every week is a bad person.

I'd be uncomfortable with it at every eucharist for the same reason I'm not too keen on the way lots of C of E churches have the prayer "Almighty God to whom all hearts are open..." at every eucharist.

They're both fine, but they aren't mandatory traditional texts and this is treating them as if they are.

(Equally, I wish C of E churches would have the kyries at every eucharist. So many I know don't.)

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Why not just sing an appropriate Offertory Hymn? That's what we do, and our hymnbooks are full of 'em.

Ian J.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

I've noticed parishes in the South are more likely to sing the doxology than those in other parts of the country. Perhaps, my personal experience isn't normative. I rather like singing the doxology as the ushers bring the offering up to the altar. Others don't. The reason given the worship leader in the OP gives for not liking it is stupid. Has he read the Eucharistic prayers? All of them are about giving thanks hence the name the Great Thanksgiving. Of course, I find most of the reasoning used by liturgists inspired by the liturgical renewal to be suspect.

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

venbede:

quote:
I'm not too keen on the way lots of C of E churches have the prayer "Almighty God to whom all hearts are open..." at every eucharist.

They're both fine, but they aren't mandatory traditional texts and this is treating them as if they are.

That prayer has been mandatory since Cranmer - how far back do you want to go?

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
So you normally sing "Praise God from whom all blessings flow..." at EVERY Offertory? In which case I can see a case for using other stuff for the sake of variety. I love the Old Hundredth but, if I sang it every week, I think I would get fed up with it.

No, you only sing one verse every week. The liturgy of the Eucharist proceeds as follows:

Offertory sentence
(Choir Anthem)
Offertory hymn, setting the table, and collection
(Doxology)
(Prayers over the gifts)
Eucharistic Prayer and so on

Singing the doxology to the Old Hundredth every week is no different than using the same service music (which many parishes do) every week. Believe it or not, I have parishioners who gripe whenever the musician introduces different service music. A couple of them even expect me to make her use the familiar stuff.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
venbede:
quote:
I'm not too keen on the way lots of C of E churches have the prayer "Almighty God to whom all hearts are open..." at every eucharist.

They're both fine, but they aren't mandatory traditional texts and this is treating them as if they are.
That prayer has been mandatory since Cranmer - how far back do you want to go?

I've checked in Series 2, Series 3, the ASB and Common Worship. All of them say it may be said. None of them say it must be said at all.

[ 05. September 2013, 15:24: Message edited by: venbede ]

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I'd be uncomfortable with it at every eucharist for the same reason I'm not too keen on the way lots of C of E churches have the prayer "Almighty God to whom all hearts are open..." at every eucharist.

It's much nicer than either of the Church in Wales' 2004 alternatives.

And if one doesn't use the Collect for Purity, the beginning of the service could get a bit sparse. In Common Worship Order One, technically everything except the greeting before the Collect of the Day can either be transposed (see the notes on pp 330-331) or omitted entirely.

(On a bit of an aside, the transposition rules can almost be stretched enough to give something approximating to Order Two, but replacing the Prayer of Consecration with something a bit less stark.)

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
(Equally, I wish C of E churches would have the kyries at every eucharist. So many I know don't.)

Why? They're just fossilized litany responses with the petitions taken out.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

This getting tangential. The kyries are part of the Western mass. The collect for purity clogs up the structure - it's a personal devotion much better said privately beforehand. The Welsh version is ghastly - agreed.

Back to the OP.

There's no reason not to have the same offertory prayers every week in principal. Different denominations and different congregations will have different understandings of the offertory.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
This getting tangential. The kyries are part of the Western mass. The collect for purity clogs up the structure - it's a personal devotion much better said privately beforehand.

Agreed. The mass begins much better with 'In the Name...', Greeting, invitation to confession, confession (often in Kyrie form), absolution, Kyrie/Gloria, Collect. IMHO.

Sorry for prolonging the tangent.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by pererin:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I'd be uncomfortable with it at every eucharist for the same reason I'm not too keen on the way lots of C of E churches have the prayer "Almighty God to whom all hearts are open..." at every eucharist.
It's much nicer than either of the Church in Wales' 2004 alternatives.

I like the Welsh alternatives, indeed the whole of the Welsh rite.

As for the 'collect' for purity, along with the humble crumble, they have become so sacred in England that to suggest that they be omitted smacks of sacrilege.

If I were in charge, they'd be put in the 'prayers before the service'.

When I AM in charge, I only use them in 'sick communions' with people over the age of 65, for whom they are essential and of whom most know off by heart long after much of their memory has faded.

BUT woe betide anyone who brings me the sacrament when I get to that stage, if they don't use what is substantially the Roman Rite!

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
When I AM in charge...

Ah, is that what corporate worship is? An exercise of the liturgist's authority and personal tastes?

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

Got it in one, Zac [Two face]

Posted by Quam Dilecta (# 12541) on :

In the USA, singing "The Doxology" to accompany the bringing forward of the collection is still quite common in Low Church or MOTR parishes. It is, of course, a Pan-Protestant habit, not part of the liturgy. Perhaps the innovating rector who convinced the congregation to accept Rite II back in 1978 was worn out and decided not to press for yet another change.

If an Anglo-Catholic parish has a choir, the Sung Mass will probably include the proper offertory chant instead.

I find myself wondering whether "The Doxology" survives against all odds in Evangelical circles, where traditional hymnody has otherwise been swept aside in favor of praise choruses, guitars, and drum sets. Does any shipmate know the answer?

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:

quote:
When I AM in charge...
Ah, is that what corporate worship is? An exercise of the liturgist's authority and personal tastes?

That's a little weighted. The "liturgist" (and I'm not sure who this is, but perhaps the presider) brings to the rite many years of study and reflection on the writings of many centuries' worth of holy men and women's writings and reflection.

If this person suddenly decided that it was de riguer to strip naked and do the chicken dance on the altar at the Peace, that might be a matter of personal taste. If however they decided that singing something at a theological less appropriate moment was sub-productive, then hopefully they would do something about it.

At the same time they should engage in teaching the people of God why we do what we do.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

The symbolism of the liturgy is multi-faceted and can never be exhausted, so to switch things about because of a single account of the symbolism is simplistic. Which means that it's neither possible nor even desirable to streamline the liturgy to absolute symbolic efficiency. It's self-centered thinking of that sort that deprives people who feel the need to repent the opportunity to do so in so many of today's liturgies.

Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
I find myself wondering whether "The Doxology" survives against all odds in Evangelical circles, where traditional hymnody has otherwise been swept aside in favor of praise choruses, guitars, and drum sets. Does any shipmate know the answer?

My wife's Southern Baptist Church would sing the Doxology during collection most every Sunday and they had a praise band. She hasn't attended there so I don't know if that is still the case.

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

In my experience, the Doxology in Episcopal parishes has been mostly in the ones that are rather affluent, with a big organ buildup to the dramatic rising of the congregation and raise-the-rafters rendition of the stanza just as the squadron of dark-suited white-haired sidesmen (CEOs and bank presidents in real life) march smartly into the chancel with the golden plates of cash to be held high and then sent off with the team of counters.

In our shack, alms-basins are brought forward just after the thurifer has swung incense at the congregation and just before the Sursum corda. What's going on at that point is usually the final stanza of the offertory hymn, which is different every week. The people are already standing from the censing. The cash-bringing is rather simple and without any added fanfare. Sometimes it's during a quiet-ish organ improvisation if the hymn was short, or silence if the hymn was short and there's not enough time to get a worthwhile improvisation going.

Posted by OfficeSinger (# 15700) on :

This use of the doxology sung to "Old 100th" is referred to as "the elevation of the cash", and is objectionable because it's such a big musical "pat on the back" the congregation gives itself for being so generous with their money. Leads to some fuzzy theological thinking I guess.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

We used to sing it. Now the only time I hear it, is when it's used as a before meal grace at summer camps. I like it better than Johnny Appleseed grace, which invariably ends with "Johnny Appleseed, amen", sung to "shave and haircut, two-bits", with Johnny standing in for Jesus.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by OfficeSinger:
This use of the doxology sung to "Old 100th" is referred to as "the elevation of the cash", and is objectionable because it's such a big musical "pat on the back" the congregation gives itself for being so generous with their money. Leads to some fuzzy theological thinking I guess.

The congregation sings, "Praise God from whom all blessings flow," to pat themselves on the back? Doesn't make much sense to me. Everything we have is a blessing from God. We give a portion of it back to God. Elevating the offering plates while singing the doxology is just one way of signifying that. Another way is offering the money up to God along with the bread and wine.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
In my experience, the Doxology in Episcopal parishes has been mostly in the ones that are rather affluent, with a big organ buildup to the dramatic rising of the congregation and raise-the-rafters rendition of the stanza just as the squadron of dark-suited white-haired sidesmen (CEOs and bank presidents in real life) march smartly into the chancel with the golden plates of cash to be held high and then sent off with the team of counters.

This reminds me of the great Betjeman, in Church of England thoughts occasioned by hearing the bells of Magdalen Tower

quote:
A Church of England sound, it tells
Of "moderate" worship, God and State,
Where matins congregations go
Conservative and good and slow
To elevations of the plate.

At Durham Cathedral many years ago (I'm pretty sure they have reformed since) there used to be a ceremony at which, IIRC, the canons and other clergy used to troop up to the altar - on St Cuthbert's Day perhaps? - put an offering on the plate and genuflect to it. You wouldn't have found more than one or two of them doing that before the blessed Sacrament.

It's not that it is wrong to offer our money to God, just that it can distort the sense of the whole liturgy if made a big thing of.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

And Betjeman's 'Bristol and Clifton' (perhaps less tolerantly than in the poem quoted above):

quote:

...So now we’ve had some radiators fixed
Along the walls and eastward of the isles;
This last I though of lest at any time
A Ritualist should be inducted here
And want to put up altars. He would find
The radiators inconvenient.
Our only ritual here is with the Plate;
I think we make it dignified enough.
I take it up myself, and afterwards,
Count the Collection on the vestry safe

Posted by roybart (# 17357) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
In my experience, the Doxology in Episcopal parishes has been mostly in the ones that are rather affluent, with a big organ buildup to the dramatic rising of the congregation and raise-the-rafters rendition of the stanza just as the squadron of dark-suited white-haired sidesmen (CEOs and bank presidents in real life) march smartly into the chancel with the golden plates of cash to be held high and then sent off with the team of counters.

There's an awful lot of truth in this. My first experience of the doxology was in just such a church in the conservative early 60s -- a time when TEC was still referred to (accurately) as "the Republican Party praying."

Thanks, Angloid and Albertus, for the John Betjman lines. Office Singer, I will never again experience the doxology -- a weekly feature at our MOTR church -- without thinking of your phrase, "the elevation of the cash." [Biased]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:

quote:
When I AM in charge...
Ah, is that what corporate worship is? An exercise of the liturgist's authority and personal tastes?

Someone has to make decisions.

have you ever seen the machinations of as 'worship committee' as it seeks to negotiate between a whole range of differing personal tastes?

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

... and ends up satisfying nobody, but annoying everyone, in the church?

[ 06. September 2013, 15:32: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
... and ends up satisfying nobody, but annoying everyone, in the church?

I'm sure you're right...... [Smile]

But I think I'm correct in saying that the order of service is decided by the incumbent in conjunction with the PCC.
Democracy may be very tiresome but it's probably the least bad way of doing things
What really gets on my nerves though is individuals willy-nilly altering orders of service - be they priests, layreaders or whatever.That's why there is a liturgy. Anglo-Catholics have been notorious for doing it in the past eg in the inclusion of the prayer at the offertory 'Pray,dear friends, that our sacrifice etc', 'Hail Mary's' and what have you but Evangelicals can be just as guilty in my experience
I'm not arguing for complete uniformity - that's next to impossible I feel - but I do feel that Common Worship and BCP ( in the CofE) contain enough material for the most varied of tastes.The same is true of the Church in Wales with the modern liturgy.
However this is perhaps a tangent.I think the Doxology is perhaps a pond difference. What we used to do in my church at the offertory procession is to have the money offertory taken up first, followed by bread water and wine. There would be a slight elevation of the plate, and then the 'elements' would be received at the altar.There'd be an offertory hymn sung and if there would have been an awkward pause, the organist would just improvise until the element carriers went back to their seats
We do things a bit differently now.The previous vicar but one didn't like the money offerings preceding the bread and wine, so he reversed it, and abolished in effect the elevation of the plate. Today after the offerings have been taken, one of the servers holds the plate up in front of the vicar who blesses it - the representatives of the people are then dismissed by a bow and if necessary the organist will improvise to cover the procession
Rather sadly, our rector has a penchant for incense,and we now seem to get it every Sunday. Basically the offertory is taken before the mass incensation starts (!) . The congregation and the choir are incensed from the altar steps - yes, I'm not the only one who doesn't care for it much and some people are more vocal than I am [Two face]

It does work very well as we have a very good organist who's good at improvising so there are no awkward silences
I'm not sure what to think about the Doxology.....it seems fairly harmless to me and a nice way of concluding the offertory but I don't really have strong view over it.......

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
have you ever seen the machinations of as 'worship committee' as it seeks to negotiate between a whole range of differing personal tastes?

More and more I want liturgy to be a "given," to exist before anyone even has a thought of what to "plan." There should be a "parish use," an understanding of how things are to be done, so for any particular Sunday, not much has to be planned: hymn choices, sermon content, choral works.

Obviously I'm no fan of viewing each liturgy as a blank canvas to be filled with wry and creative expressions. This includes diocesan gatherings, which tend to turn into personal projects of the diocesan liturgists, when I contend they should be the liturgy of the day, made special by the bigness of the congregation and its being made up of folks from many parishes, not made special by someone's personal preferences. Maybe I'm trending Eastern Orthodox?

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

I normally offer the collection right after the "Come, O Sanctifier" blessing of the Eucharistic elements, and before the censing of the altar. We don't do Old One Hundredth because normally the choir is singing an anthem just then, or the congregation is singing a hymn.

The organist's objection in the OP is bizarre. First of all, it's not a peppy tune (at least not as I define peppy), and second of all, even the most extreme RCs don't believe that we "kill Jesus" in the Mass. Get that musician a copy of the 39 Articles (and while we're at it, the wit to understand them).

My only objection to the Doxology is that it tends to make the Consecration of the Cash the high point of the Offertory, and to sideline the offering, blessing and censing of the elements. If, however, I were in a parish that sung it and treasured it, the last thing I'd want to do is to take it from them. It's not that big an issue.

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

In TEC, "All things come of thee, O Lord, and of thine have we given thee" used to be very common IIRC, then it was replaced with the "doxology" (hate that that name now applies to one verse and one verse only).

There is the accompanying row between those churches who add the customary "Amen" at the end of the "doxology" and who seem to think that adding an "amen" to any hymn is practically heresy at worst or eye-roll inducing "Jesus H. Christ, who ARE these people" at best.

I have seen in other denominations that the "Praise God from whom all blessings flow" is officially name "The Doxology" and that name has been imported into TEC from other denominations.

It does seem to be the hymn that most people know and can sing--except in a few churches where somebody has changed the tune from Old One Hundredth to some 70s era tune from a late organist.

Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :

We sang the doxology every Sunday in the Congregational church I grew up in. I've never heard it in the Episcopal Church in the northeast.

Posted by Quinquireme (# 17384) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arpeggi:
Pardon my ignorance but by "Doxology" are you referring to the Gloria Patri? Or something different? I'm guessing the latter.

Well, Arpeggi I don't think anybody could be bothered to answer your very reasonable question. I don't have the answer, and I too have often asked similar questions in S of F in a spirit of enquiry, and had rather pompous and sneering answers. Or been ignored.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Quinquireme:

quote:
Originally posted by Arpeggi:
Pardon my ignorance but by "Doxology" are you referring to the Gloria Patri? Or something different? I'm guessing the latter.
Well, Arpeggi I don't think anybody could be bothered to answer your very reasonable question. I don't have the answer, and I too have often asked similar questions in S of F in a spirit of enquiry, and had rather pompous and sneering answers. Or been ignored.

Actually, I did, right here. And I don't believe my answer was pompous or sneering.

Posted by Quinquireme (# 17384) on :

Sorry Barefoot friar, I hadn't picked up on that. I think the Doxology in the Anglican tradition is something quite different.

Posted by WearyPilgrim (# 14593) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:

quote:
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
I find myself wondering whether "The Doxology" survives against all odds in Evangelical circles, where traditional hymnody has otherwise been swept aside in favor of praise choruses, guitars, and drum sets. Does any shipmate know the answer?
My wife's Southern Baptist Church would sing the Doxology during collection most every Sunday and they had a praise band. She hasn't attended there so I don't know if that is still the case.

The Doxology is ubiquitous in American Protestantism, at least in mainline and traditional evangelical churches. I don't know of one single church that doesn't use it, most often at the Offertory but occasionally (especially in Presbyterian circles) at the beginning of the service. I know one Presbyterian parish that sings the Doxology as the ministers enter the chancel and the Bible is placed on the pulpit, while at the Offertory the church uses various hymns of praise, either whole stanzas or refrains --- an idea that works well, I think.

Some mainline churches that prefer inclusive language use a variant on the lyrics:
Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow;
Praise God, all creatures here, below;
Praise God above, ye heavenly host;
Creator, Christ, and Holy Ghost

. . . or something similar.

Posted by sonata3 (# 13653) on :

Interesting thread, at least for those of us with some contact with TEC. In the early 70s, I was organist at a MOTR Episcopal church in a highly-affluent parish in the mid-South. We solemnly sang "Praise God..." to Old Hundredth every Sunday (MP twice a month, a moderately high Eucharist twice a month). The Solemn Elevation of the Blessed Alms Basin (at the Eucharist) was about as high as the ceremonial got, though the celebrant was vested in chasuble, and bells were rung during the Institution Narrative.
When a relatively "high church" rector came our way, we replaced "Praise God..." with "Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence" on Eucharistic Sundays. As ceremonial got higher, the SEBAB was played down, and Eucharistic services became more frequent, gradually "Praise God..." dropped out of use (although occasionally still used to Lasst uns erfreuen with Alleluias during Easter).
As noted upthread, there are both pond differences, and regional differences within TEC here.
I still loath the Old Hundredth tune, primarily because of its association with the SEBAB. Obviously, this thread has made it clear that others will differ.
There is an important point that (IMHO) should be brought into this discussion: the view that there is no "Offertory" until the Oblation following the Institution Narrative in Anglicasn rites; Lutheran rites have no "offering" at all. The term "Preparation of the Altar" I think much better describes what happens immediately prior to the Preface Dialogue. Early on in the Liturgical Movement, there was concern that the rites surrounding the Preparation of the Gifts not anticipate the Oblation within the Canon.
FWIW, I like the "Offertory"s in both LBW and ELW.

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
FWIW, I like the "Offertory"s in both LBW and ELW.

Are these online somewhere?

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :

The Presbyterian church I attended growing up always used the Doxology as the opening hymn. I've seen the same thing twice at my parent's home church up in Maine as well (Disciples of Christ). My husband, who grew up Lutheran, also recalls it being sung every week, but he couldn't remember where it occurred in the service.

Posted by sonata3 (# 13653) on :

By using the "Look Inside" feature, you can see a couple of the Offertory verses in the Missouri Synod worship book:

http://www.cph.org/p-98-lutheran-service-book-pew-edition.aspx

I'm not sure where one could view, say, all of ELW online. Lutherans seem to be more concerned about copyright than Episcopalians are with the BCP.

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

Thanks. It looks like there's good stuff in there. Another two books for my shopping list...

And the same issue applies over here to the Welsh Presbyterian Church: their "Llyfr Gwasanaethau"/"A Book of Services" is excellent (if only they used it more...), but their attitude to copyright/not putting things online is a total pain.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
My husband, who grew up Lutheran, also recalls it being sung every week, but he couldn't remember where it occurred in the service.

Oh, the long-standing place for Lutherans to sing the Doxology is at the very end of the service, to be followed by a few moments of silent prayer whilst the organist twiddles away...and then blares a loud postlude to signal the end!

I would call this an act of popular devotion, as it doesn't appear in the historical Lutheran books of liturgy. (There are a handful of modern ones from teeny tiny denoms who now put it in.)

Posted by sonata3 (# 13653) on :

I posted upthread a comment not entirely favorable to the use of the Doxology at the Preparation of the Gifts. God must have a sense of humor, as I was in Detroit over the past weekend, and, as there were no ELCA parishes near my hotel, I decided to attend the Episcopal cathedral. I encountered all of those things I always thought antiquarian about TEC - the Doxoxlogy (sung to Old Hundredth), the Scottish chant Gloria, no Eucharistic vestments, and (horrors!) a verger. Not to mention a choir anthem of SS. Wesley, and a prelude by Herbert Howells. Sticking with ELCA.......

Posted by S. Bacchus (# 17778) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
I encountered all of those things I always thought antiquarian about TEC - the Doxoxlogy (sung to Old Hundredth), the Scottish chant Gloria, no Eucharistic vestments, and (horrors!) a verger. Not to mention a choir anthem of SS. Wesley, and a prelude by Herbert Howells. Sticking with ELCA.......

I quite like SS. Wesley, although he's a bit toward the kitsch end of Victorian church music (a friend of mine described 'Blessed be the God and Father' as 'perhaps the silliest piece of "good" church music ever written'). And what objection can there be toward Howells (or indeed vergers)?

I don't know the 'Scottish chant Gloria' (and I would actually expect that the ordinary would be to a choral setting in a cathedral), but given that my parish uses Merbecke (or, more rarely, Shaw or the 'Missa de Angelis' when we really want to mix it up), I suspect I wouldn't find it 'antiquarian'.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

I love this idea that there is just THE doxology.

Many hymns have a doxology for their final verse, not just that from Bishop Ken.

ISTM that to, effectively, sing the Gloria Patri, either on its own or repetitiously, may get on a person's nerves: more likely to annoy if the exact same words and tune are used Sunday by Sunday. But that is why it is a good thing to have several settings of the ordinary so that the singing does not become automatic and, possible, without thought.

What really bugs me is the singing of final doxology verses which don't have an AMEN at the end - the usual excuse being that there isn't one printed (especially in anything published by Ke**n M*yh*w) - as if it is beyond the wit of organists to play a simple Amen and the people to sing it... [Mad]

Posted by sonata3 (# 13653) on :

quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:

quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
I encountered all of those things I always thought antiquarian about TEC - the Doxoxlogy (sung to Old Hundredth), the Scottish chant Gloria, no Eucharistic vestments, and (horrors!) a verger. Not to mention a choir anthem of SS. Wesley, and a prelude by Herbert Howells. Sticking with ELCA.......
I quite like SS. Wesley, although he's a bit toward the kitsch end of Victorian church music (a friend of mine described 'Blessed be the God and Father' as 'perhaps the silliest piece of "good" church music ever written'). And what objection can there be toward Howells (or indeed vergers)?

I don't know the 'Scottish chant Gloria' (and I would actually expect that the ordinary would be to a choral setting in a cathedral), but given that my parish uses Merbecke (or, more rarely, Shaw or the 'Missa de Angelis' when we really want to mix it up), I suspect I wouldn't find it 'antiquarian'.

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. The Scottish Gloria is a "sort of" Anglican chant, and was ubiquitous in TEC in the days of the 1940 Hymnal and 1928 BCP; hadn't sung it in decades. For me, the service had a 1950s feel to it; I'm sure that partially reflects the type of TEC parish I attend the 4-5 times a year I that I might go to an Episcopal church.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Don't be too sniffy about SS Wesley - there's more to him than Lead me, Lord and Blessed be the God and Father .

Lent I can be enhanced by judicious scheduling of Wash me throughly and Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace is lovely and was sung at the 1937 coronation.

The music of Howells? Try his Gloucester Service - far superior to his other settings IMHO, perhaps because he knew the Cathedral from his boyhood having served his pupilage there under Sumsion.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
What really bugs me is the singing of final doxology verses which don't have an AMEN at the end - the usual excuse being that there isn't one printed (especially in anything published by Ke**n M*yh*w) - as if it is beyond the wit of organists to play a simple Amen and the people to sing it...

Oh dear, I'm newly struggling to learn keyboard well enough to play in a musically desperate church (of which apparently there are quite a number, piano teacher says students of his worse than me are playing in churches), has not occurred to me to add to what is written. My focus is solely on getting the right notes (mostly) from the page to the fingers and keys.

Come to think of it, in my youth all hymns had an amen tacked on. Rarely hear any amens anymore. 1940 hymnal has amen written into the music of most hymns. 1982 I don't see any. Looks like an intentional change. Why?

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Yesterday, one of our clergy, on being asked to end the PCC meeting ("vestry" for old-fashioned Americans) in prayer asked us to stand and sing "The Doxology". Two things became immediately obvious.

Firstly, all of the twelve or so people present knew exactly which song he meant and knew all the words. We were all agreed on Thomas Ken's:

quote:

Praise God, from whom all blessings flow,
Praise him, all creatures here below,
Praise him above, ye heavenly host,
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Secondly, we had at least three different tunes between us. I naturally started out on Tallis's canon (which is the tune we've used when we've sung it in church services) but some others were on Old Hundredth and the clergyperson responsible sang it louldly to a slow and tricky tune I've never heard before.

Posted by S. Bacchus (# 17778) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
What really bugs me is the singing of final doxology verses which don't have an AMEN at the end - the usual excuse being that there isn't one printed (especially in anything published by Ke**n M*yh*w) - as if it is beyond the wit of organists to play a simple Amen and the people to sing it...
Oh dear, I'm newly struggling to learn keyboard well enough to play in a musically desperate church (of which apparently there are quite a number, piano teacher says students of his worse than me are playing in churches), has not occurred to me to add to what is written. My focus is solely on getting the right notes (mostly) from the page to the fingers and keys.

Come to think of it, in my youth all hymns had an amen tacked on. Rarely hear any amens anymore. 1940 hymnal has amen written into the music of most hymns. 1982 I don't see any. Looks like an intentional change. Why?

The New English Hymnal, following what I would assume to be normal practice, provides an 'Amen' for all hymns that end with a Trinitarian doxology, but not for those that do not. Thus, the office hymn for the current season ends:

quote:
O Father, that we ask be done,
through Jesus Christ, thine only Son;
who, with the Holy Ghost and thee,
doth live and reign eternally. Amen.

Similarly, Newman's 'Firmly I believe and truly ends:

quote:

Adoration aye be given,
with and through the angelic host,
to the God of earth and heaven,
Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Amen.

However, 'Be thou my vision' does not end in a Trinitarian doxology, and there is thus no final Amen.

That said, I can't actually remember how strictly this rule is kept at any of the churches where I have been a regular worshiper.

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