Thread: Benediction Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
I like Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament. Praying to Our Lord present under sacramental sign, singing to Him, censing the Most Holy. It all makes sense but I've just been pondering the actual Benediction and am left in a bit of a quandary. Isn't it entirely superfluous? Whilst not wanting to be a liturgical minimalist, what's the point of it?

Thurible
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
I do not like Benediction (or monstrances for that matter). It's not that I don't believe that Christ is present in the Host, but the real miracle of His Presence isn't just that He's there but Him in us when we receive the Eucharist. The Eucharist without us receiving it seems pointless to me. It's about Christ living in us, not just Christ living and us observing.
 
Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
I like Benediction for the chance to contemplate (preferably with some silence) the wonder of the Eucharist, but agree that waving the monstrance in the sign of cross is not most important part for me. But would seem odd without, it's the closing of it. But at greenbelt worship pageant it seemed odd that we mostly ignored the sacrament until Benediction was offered. No O Salutaris or Tantum Ergo. Unfortunately missed the hour of adoration

Jade, I agree receiving and getting out and doing is key part, but some soaking time good too. Personally I have a rule that I shouldn't be at benediction more often than Mass and actually aim for at least twice mass as Benediction. This is not an issue these days not being at a church with weekly E & B

Carys
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Jade, we're clearly at different starting points.

Carys, yes. The chance to be in the sacramental presence of the Lord himself is just awesome and I wouldn't forego it - though, like you, I'm in a parish without regular benediction and miss it greatly.

I wonder if I could persuade Father, contra Jade, to offer Devotions in the monstrance. Or holy hour or something.

Thurible
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
We slid Benediction in to one of the Sunday evenings around Corpus Christi - part of the more experimental Sunday evening offerings. It proved popular enough that it's offered more or less quarterly. It's not called Benediction though. And Maundy Thursday Vigil allows Benediction too.
 
Posted by S. Bacchus (# 17778) on :
 
I think it's probably relevant that Benediction is essentially a popular extra-liturgical devotion. The official liturgies of the Church can seem pretty stark (and were more so in the days when hymn singing was not allowed during either the Mass/Communion Office or during the daily office), so there was popular demand for devotions that expressed Christianity in a more emotional manner. Benediction is one of the most popular of these, as is the Way of the Cross. None of these devotions is strictly necessary, but many people find them very moving, perhaps in no small part because they a chance for totally superfluous worship.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
For Benediction without the benediction, one could attend Solemn Evensong and Devotions any Sunday at St Thomas', Huron Street, Toronto, arriving early to witness the solemn altargoing of the Blessed Sacrament (which stays in the ciborium; no monstrance) during the prelude. All the other elements of Benediction are there but not the benediction itself.

They sing a slightly but significantly altered version of the antiphon on Ps. 117. Instead of "Let us adore for ever : the most holy Sacrament," it's "Let us adore Christ our Lord : in the most holy Sacrament." Perhaps this is to avoid accusations of "cookie-worship"? (Which accusations I hate, and I hate that term.)
 
Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :
 
I am afraid that Lutherans are in a bit of a desert when it comes to acts of devotion. Luther himself was extremely devoted to the sacrament, but he cautioned that outward acts of devotion were not as important as a true inner devotion. Unfortunately we Lutherans have taken it to the opposite extreme.

Sometimes I think it would be wise for us to have some time to simply sit and contemplate the gift of the sacrament, as opposed to the usual sprint of the Great Thanksgiving (shortest options utilized by many pastors) and whirlwind distribution.

Whenever I walk into [Catholic or Anglican] churches with tabernacles and candles, or even churches in the middle of exposition/adoration, I can feel the importance, and I appreciate the moment to contemplate. Maybe I suffer from human weakness, having to have a visible sign, but certainly I am not the only one.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Jade, we're clearly at different starting points.

Carys, yes. The chance to be in the sacramental presence of the Lord himself is just awesome and I wouldn't forego it - though, like you, I'm in a parish without regular benediction and miss it greatly.

I wonder if I could persuade Father, contra Jade, to offer Devotions in the monstrance. Or holy hour or something.

Thurible
Well my main starting point is the Eucharist - what is it for, and what's the point of it? It seems to me that it IS about doing (or rather Christ's active doing), and Benediction therefore just seems pointless to me (and seems to have done so for Cranmer too). I have absolutely no issue with others getting something from it, it just totally passes me by.

To both you and Carys - I question the Presence being there outside of the celebration of the Eucharist. I don't have a strong opinion either way, but Christ hanging about in a wafer instead of in us seems a bit odd and pointless to me. Christ is surely there at the breaking of the bread, and not just in the bread in general?

I think I may tend towards Sacramental Union in terms of Eucharistic theology anyway. Clearly I'm not much use to this discussion [Smile]
 
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
I understand it in terms of all our prayer and devotion flowing from the Eucharist. I suppose it depends on whether you see the Eucharist as the central act of the church in prayer and worship, but if you do, then it makes sense that Benediction is a natural extension of that and providing a visual an tangible link to it.
 
Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :
 
"The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon, or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them." That is why I am very much in two minds about the whole practice of Benediction.
 
Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
I doubt anyone would claim the Sacrament was ordained for adoration, but it's certainly a happy fringe benefit!
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
I love Benediction. The fact that it might be liturgically and theologically dubious makes me like it more - because worship if for its own sake, not for anything we get out of it.

There's a good article/booklet about the theological justification for Benediction by John MacQuarrie.
 
Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :
 
I find it rather strange to question the presence of Christ outside the Eucharist.
It is an ancient practise to reserve the blessed sacrament whether in an an aumbry or tabernacle.
Evangelicals have often a very rational approach to the Eucharist, that is why they do not like reservation or benediction.
The Eastern-Orthodox do not have benediction,however,they do not disapprove of it.
I am Always wondering is it wrong to adore Christ outside the Eucharist ? I do not think so.
Thomas Cranmer was not in favour of it,but he was not
an infallible pope or bishop.
 
Posted by SeraphimSarov (# 4335) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
"The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon, or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them." That is why I am very much in two minds about the whole practice of Benediction.
I wondered how long it would be before someone brought out the Articles (which are heavily Reformed-oriented ) to spoil the fun
 
Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
"The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon, or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them." That is why I am very much in two minds about the whole practice of Benediction.
I wondered how long it would be before someone brought out the Articles (which are heavily Reformed-oriented ) to spoil the fun
Possibly, but given that Benediction, if not actually a product of the counter-reformation, became more widespread at that time, the reaction of the Reformed to yet another Roman innovation would be understandable, even if you regard their motives as killjoy.

Is there any record of a pre-reformation form of Benediction in England? I should be most interested if anyone has any reference to such.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
"The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon, or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them." That is why I am very much in two minds about the whole practice of Benediction.
quote:
However, what these articles say is no more than a statement of fact. Christ did not ordain the sacrament for adoration, but to be received in holy communion. That this is so is disputed by no-one. On the subject of adoration, however, Christ is silent. That is what the articles states, and no more than this.

Now it is true that Jesus did not become man in order to be worshipped, but to redeem us from our sins. He did this by dying on the cross for our sake (where his body was broken and his blood poured out). He instituted the Lord’s Supper as the perpetual setting forth of this Sacrifice and the means whereby we are refreshed and renewed by being made one in his saving death and resurrection through faithfully sharing in this sacrament (John 6: 54-58; 1 Corinthians 10: 16-17 and 11: 23-26).

Nevertheless it is notable that in the gospels when Jesus is worshipped and adored, he does not prevent the person from doing so, but accepts it as appropriate, for example the woman who was a sinner (Luke 7: 36-50) and Thomas the Apostle (John 20: 26-29). He does not forbid it, as would be expected if this were wrong. Indeed, Thomas is commended for addressing Jesus as ‘God’....Those who are opposed to Eucharistic adoration on the grounds that the articles prohibit adoration since what is not explicitly according to Christ's ordinance is implicitly forbidden, should by the same argument be opposed to worship of Jesus. This would be a position totally against the teaching of the Bible.
says this source

quote:
If Benediction simply stopped at “carrying about” the Sacrament then we would be woefully in error. If it was simply an act of “gazing” then we would be undermining the fullness of the Sacramental life. Yet it is far more than carrying and gazing. It is holding up that which we know to be a concrete manifestation of the love of God. Held up is the host, the saving victim, so that all may be drawn to Him with renewed faith in that Presence.
We do not simply gaze – though that is part of the act for we do look intently with admiration, thought, or surprise. Benediction is not the act of gazing alone though – it is the community’s adoration – the body comes together in love to give our attention, if but for a moment, to the One who calls us and who comes to be with us.
in this one.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
I find it rather strange to question the presence of Christ outside the Eucharist.
It is an ancient practise to reserve the blessed sacrament whether in an an aumbry or tabernacle.
Evangelicals have often a very rational approach to the Eucharist, that is why they do not like reservation or benediction.
The Eastern-Orthodox do not have benediction,however,they do not disapprove of it.
I am Always wondering is it wrong to adore Christ outside the Eucharist ? I do not think so.
Thomas Cranmer was not in favour of it,but he was not
an infallible pope or bishop.
I don't like reservation or benediction, but I'm no evangelical, nor do I have a very 'rational' view of the Eucharist - I totally believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, just not in the Host outside of the Eucharist being celebrated.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
"The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon, or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them." That is why I am very much in two minds about the whole practice of Benediction.
quote:
However, what these articles say is no more than a statement of fact. Christ did not ordain the sacrament for adoration, but to be received in holy communion. That this is so is disputed by no-one. On the subject of adoration, however, Christ is silent. That is what the articles states, and no more than this.

Now it is true that Jesus did not become man in order to be worshipped, but to redeem us from our sins. He did this by dying on the cross for our sake (where his body was broken and his blood poured out). He instituted the Lord’s Supper as the perpetual setting forth of this Sacrifice and the means whereby we are refreshed and renewed by being made one in his saving death and resurrection through faithfully sharing in this sacrament (John 6: 54-58; 1 Corinthians 10: 16-17 and 11: 23-26).

Nevertheless it is notable that in the gospels when Jesus is worshipped and adored, he does not prevent the person from doing so, but accepts it as appropriate, for example the woman who was a sinner (Luke 7: 36-50) and Thomas the Apostle (John 20: 26-29). He does not forbid it, as would be expected if this were wrong. Indeed, Thomas is commended for addressing Jesus as ‘God’....Those who are opposed to Eucharistic adoration on the grounds that the articles prohibit adoration since what is not explicitly according to Christ's ordinance is implicitly forbidden, should by the same argument be opposed to worship of Jesus. This would be a position totally against the teaching of the Bible.
says this source

quote:
If Benediction simply stopped at “carrying about” the Sacrament then we would be woefully in error. If it was simply an act of “gazing” then we would be undermining the fullness of the Sacramental life. Yet it is far more than carrying and gazing. It is holding up that which we know to be a concrete manifestation of the love of God. Held up is the host, the saving victim, so that all may be drawn to Him with renewed faith in that Presence.
We do not simply gaze – though that is part of the act for we do look intently with admiration, thought, or surprise. Benediction is not the act of gazing alone though – it is the community’s adoration – the body comes together in love to give our attention, if but for a moment, to the One who calls us and who comes to be with us.
in this one.
My issue is that I don't think (from my perspective) adoration is worship. I mean, it is but it doesn't resemble the worship in the Gospel examples given - true worship is being moved internally and spiritually and personal action together. There is no personal action with adoration, and it misses the point of the Eucharist. The Eucharist requires our active participation, that's what makes it glorious.

I realise that others value the 'soaking' as it was put upthread, but I just can't. Sorry, as much as I disagree with Cranmer on other issues, I agree with him on this.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Turning away from whether Benediction is a good thing,
quote:
Thurible asks in the opening post:
I've just been pondering the actual Benediction and am left in a bit of a quandary. Isn't it entirely superfluous? Whilst not wanting to be a liturgical minimalist, what's the point of it?
I think S. Bacchus has it when he reminds us the service of Benediction is of popular devising.

As such, having the big, grand gesture of blessing the assembled with tMBSotA exposed to us in a monstrance is entirely appropriate.

It gives the drama a climax: the gesture, the bells, the smoke.
 
Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
Surely the symbolism of us coming into Christ's presence and Christ then blessing us is not completely inappropriate...?
 
Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
There is no personal action with adoration
Do you have an issue with meditation and contemplation, or the saying of the rosary?

Since adoration of Christ in Benediction is to focus, in part, our thoughts and prayers upon the mysteries of the incarnation it explicitly should then encourage us to go out and actually do the living of the Gospel, if that makes sense...

Nothing we do should be separated from the whole, and I know that it might not be your thing, but I wonder if you can see how it doesn't necessarily run contrary to what you think worship should be about...

Another thing to point out, Adoration 'separate', as it were, of the Mass is of particular comfort to many who are always 'on duty' during Mass and don't get much opportunity to spend time in adoration during the Mass...
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
There is no personal action with adoration
Do you have an issue with meditation and contemplation, or the saying of the rosary?

Since adoration of Christ in Benediction is to focus, in part, our thoughts and prayers upon the mysteries of the incarnation it explicitly should then encourage us to go out and actually do the living of the Gospel, if that makes sense...

Nothing we do should be separated from the whole, and I know that it might not be your thing, but I wonder if you can see how it doesn't necessarily run contrary to what you think worship should be about...

Another thing to point out, Adoration 'separate', as it were, of the Mass is of particular comfort to many who are always 'on duty' during Mass and don't get much opportunity to spend time in adoration during the Mass...
To be honest, contemplation and meditation is difficult for me, being a kinetic learner (and pray-er) and needing to DO something to pray. I say the rosary from time to time but usually to help me sleep. I think things like contemplation and worship style is largely down to personality type and not theology - I'd rather be drawing a mandala and using that to pray than do Adoration, it's just not how I work.

I do see your point about Adoration being good for those 'on duty' during Mass and others benefiting from Benediction, but if I'm honest I struggle to see Christ being present in the wafer by itself in a monstrance. To me, it's just a wafer. It's celebrating the Eucharist that brings about the Real Presence IMO. I have no issue with others benefiting from Adoration and Benediction, it's just very much not for me.
 
Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:

I like Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament. Praying to Our Lord present under sacramental sign, singing to Him, censing the Most Holy. It all makes sense but I've just been pondering the actual Benediction and am left in a bit of a quandary. Isn't it entirely superfluous? Whilst not wanting to be a liturgical minimalist, what's the point of it?

Thurible
There is no point to it, other than setting up an object for idol worship. In seminary, a good number of us used to refer to Benediction as cracker worship! Heheh!

A large priest's host is actually for taking, blessing, breaking and sharing in the Eucharist. It is not meant to be put in a glass case and used as a totem of the real presence of Jesus Christ in the bread. The consecrated bread is for sharing and eating.

Benediction and adoration of the Blessed Sacrament came about waaay back when as worshipful substitutes when yearly or bi-annual reception of Holy Communion was normal for the laity, Now that Holy Communion is far more available, it is pointless to retain and even encourage most of these extra Eucharistic popular devotions. Of course the actual blessing itself, using the boxed up host under glass in an "ostensorium" (monstrance) is just as pointless, I think.

*
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
There is no point to it, other than setting up an object for idol worship. In seminary, a good number of us used to refer to Benediction as cracker worship! Heheh!

A large priest's host is actually for taking, blessing, breaking and sharing in the Eucharist. It is not meant to be put in a glass case and used as a totem of the real presence of Jesus Christ in the bread. The consecrated bread is for sharing and eating.

Benediction and adoration of the Blessed Sacrament came about waaay back when as worshipful substitutes when yearly or bi-annual reception of Holy Communion was normal for the laity, Now that Holy Communion is far more available, it is pointless to retain and even encourage most of these extra Eucharistic popular devotions. Of course the actual blessing itself, using the boxed up host under glass in an "ostensorium" (monstrance) is just as pointless, I think.
I disagree and would counter this with what Macquarrie wrote about Benediction, quoted in this very good blog post on the matter.
 
Posted by chive (# 208) on :
 
I love benediction and I try to go as often as possible. I probably end up going more often then I do Sunday mass because fewer people go to benediction so as someone with severe anxiety it is more copeable.

For me it is the time when I feel closest to God, there is something that makes me feel that there is a crack in heaven and God's love is shining through. I know this is just a subjective feeling but it leaves me with an incredible peace.
 
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
Maybe the discomfort comes from what some describe as things 'outside the Eucharist'. I'm not quite sure I understand any worship in that way, but rather that the action of the Eucharist is continuous, and all our offices, prayer services, worship sessions, daily grind, jobs, meeting people etc are all a continuing part of 'Eucharist': Christ dwelling in us and we in him. Benediction is a good symbol of that for me.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
o I have a very 'rational' view of the Eucharist - I totally believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, just not in the Host outside of the Eucharist being celebrated.
In which case, any left over bread and wine can be thrown in the bin or poured down the sink.

There's some serious theology going on here - when the Incarnation took placed, the second person of the Trinity united with the body of Jesus for every - not just until the ascension. So, at the Ascension, our human nature was raised to the heavens.

In just the same way, the presence of Christ in the consecrated elements remains until such time as those elements cease to be bread and wine, not merely until the last hymn is sung.
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
Ken Leech has always been deeply concerned about social issues, as founder of Centrepoint and the Jubilee Group and director of the Runnymede Trust.

He has always been concerned that Christian activism without contemplation is inadequate. He said that he found the prayer of adoration very difficult other than in the presence of the reserved sacrament. As Rector of St Matthew’s Bethnal Green, with a Sunday morning congregation of 30, he had Evensong and Benediction every Sunday (with a congregation of less than 10) and for Maundy Thursday had a vigil of prayer before the sacrament through the night until the Good Friday Liturgy.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
Benediction is precisely the ultimate affirmation of the Real Presence. I tremble before the Sacrament precisely because I believe Jesus' promise that he is present to me in a very special way in this feast.

Not only present to me, but really and truly present to me in an unqualified manner. If we qualify this presence, then naturally Benediction would be idolatry.
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
I have the feeling that many Anglicans are unsure as to how to interpret the presence of Christ in the consecrated Host which gives rise to such expressions as 'cracker worship' (what does 'worship 'mean here ?) as well as 'muffin in a monstrance' which I have seen on those boards.
No Roman Catholic,no matter how weak their faith would use such expressions,which really give offence within that community,though obviously not in the Anglican communnity.

Indeed as some have pointed out Benediction was and is a popular devotion over the centuries when regular reception of Communion was not common among RCs.That has changed over the last 50 years
and most RC churches in the UK no longer have Benediction as often as it was 50 years ago.

Nevertheless it was extremely moving to see the huge crowds meditating in front of the Blessed Sacrament exposed in St Peter's Square in Rome
last Saturday evening at the papal vigil of prayer for peace.
 
Posted by Vade Mecum (# 17688) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I have the feeling that many Anglicans are unsure as to how to interpret the presence of Christ in the consecrated Host which gives rise to such expressions as 'cracker worship' (what does 'worship 'mean here ?) as well as 'muffin in a monstrance' which I have seen on those boards.
As I recall, "muffin in a monstrance" usually refers to leavened bread being used, usually in the context of the (possibly apocryphal) affectionate Staggers' chant: "You can't put a muffin in a monstrance", which was aimed at Evangelicals (against whom they were playing at football, IIRC). It might also me a RC swipe at the Orthodox and their asterisks.

Again, "cracker worship" tends to be an Evnagelical Protestant thing (a la Jack Chick).

So, I'm not sure that the existence of these phrases says anything about Anglicans' attitudes to the MBS, which whilst multi-hued, are seldom in the main derogatory.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I question the Presence being there outside of the celebration of the Eucharist.
But the Sacrament is reserved in churches primarily to allow the sick and housebound to share in the Eucharist. So in that sense, the Eucharist doesn't end with the dismissal on a particular Sunday, it continues as eucharistic ministers go out to administer Communion in hospital wards and in peoples' homes. Unless you believe it is wrong or pointless to keep still and prayerful before receiving the Sacrament in church, or after having done so, then prayer before the reserved Sacrament, either in the aumbry/tabernacle or in a monstrance, is just an extension of the same thing.

I have never served in a church with regular services of Benediction, and I have to admit they don't often mean much to me. But one of the most powerful experiences is the Watch before Christ in the Sacrament on Maundy Thursday evening, and I have also felt the same during Exposition in RC retreat centres (the Woodland Chapel at St Beuno's in North Wales is a particular example)
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

But one of the most powerful experiences is the Watch before Christ in the Sacrament on Maundy Thursday evening
Same here. The most important thing in the church's year for me. (As I learnt from Ken Leech's example.)
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
I 've never heard of anything like Benediction in Presbyterianism and I'm sure that many Presbyterians will be unaware of the particular meaning that the word Benediction has in Catholic circles. I,at least, have never heard Presbyterians here in Scotland talking in a derogatory fashion about Benediction. It is just not on the radar.

Anglicans of many different hues are more likely to have heard of it and to have participated in the devotion at some time either with positive
or sometimes negative impressions.
 
Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I 've never heard of anything like Benediction in Presbyterianism and I'm sure that many Presbyterians will be unaware of the particular meaning that the word Benediction has in Catholic circles. I,at least, have never heard Presbyterians here in Scotland talking in a derogatory fashion about Benediction. It is just not on the radar.

Anglicans of many different hues are more likely to have heard of it and to have participated in the devotion at some time either with positive
or sometimes negative impressions.
On a couple of occasions in the past few years I have found myself at Benediction in a local (Anglican) church - not because I specifically wanted to attend the rite per se, but because it was happening in conjunction with something else. On both occasions I was, by coincidence, in the company of a Presbyterian (neither Scots, but no matter). Both were rather bemused by it - one joined in enthusiastically with the responses and singing &c and at the end asked me "whatever was all that in aid of?"; the other was just totally bemused. Not critical, nor condemnatory - just rather puzzled at an unfamiliar concept.

No, I don't think you will find anything like reservation of the sacrament in a Presbyterian church, though the 1940 CoS Book of Common Order does have a form for 'a second table' - communion using elements consecrated at a service earlier in the day - which does look to be rather like the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts.
 
Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I 've never heard of anything like Benediction in Presbyterianism and I'm sure that many Presbyterians will be unaware of the particular meaning that the word Benediction has in Catholic circles.
I confess I do giggle a bit when I read lines like "Pastor Frank of the Living Water Tabernacle gave the closing Benediction," where the intended meaning is clearly not the "particular" one. But even those not given to Latinate liturgical forms apparently can't resist the sound of Latinate words in their mouths; "blessing" apparently just isn't the same. (Rather like the colloquial use of "sanctuary" to describe the interior of those churches which would object most strenuously to the idea of actually erecting/demarcating a sanctuary).
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
'Benediction' is certainly a word often used here in Scotland for a closing blessing given by a minister. Since 'benediction' means 'speaking nice words' it is indeed an appropriate word to use.
To my mind it is the Catholics who have misappropriated the word as nothing is said at the actual moment of 'Benediction'

'Blessing' on the other hand is connected etymologically with blood sacrifice.Although there is no ban on the word 'bless' in general Presbyterian ministers do not 'bless' anything or anyone.That is what a Catholic priest does.
 
Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
'Blessing' on the other hand is connected etymologically with blood sacrifice.Although there is no ban on the word 'bless' in general Presbyterian ministers do not 'bless' anything or anyone.That is what a Catholic priest does.
But that's the point: if a Presbyterian minister is not otherwise minded to "bless" then who is s/he fooling by adding a couple syllables?

[ 10. September 2013, 10:25: Message edited by: LQ ]
 
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
Posted by Forthview:
quote:

'Blessing' on the other hand is connected etymologically with blood sacrifice.Although there is no ban on the word 'bless' in general Presbyterian ministers do not 'bless' anything or anyone.That is what a Catholic priest does.
Um....that seems slightly at odds with your Book of Common Order.
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
Sorry,but it's not my Book of Common Order.
I didn't say that 'bless' or 'blessing' is never used by Presbyterians or other Protestants.

We bless you,Father,for ....... is a common enough
beginning to extempore prayer.
However the blessing or benediction at the end of a Presbyterian service is often given in such a way as to indicate clearly that the blessing comes from God and not from the minister - and quite rightly so.
 
Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
the blessing or benediction at the end of a Presbyterian service is often given in such a way as to indicate clearly that the blessing comes from God and not from the minister - and quite rightly so.
Ah, so it is like Benediction, then! Humeral veil, anyone? [Biased]
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
I like that !
 
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
posted by Forthview:
quote:

Sorry,but it's not my Book of Common Order.
Apologies, I assumed you were Church of Scotland.
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
This is rather weird to imply that the blessing of a catholic priest comes from the priest rather than God. "And the blessing of Almighty God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.." not "And my blessing..."

What other sort of blessing/benediction is there other than that of God?
 
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
Of course,venerable friend,Christians know that all blessings come from Almighty God and not the from his ministers.
Nevertheless in ordinary speech, people often talk
about the priest's blessing at the end of Mass
given by the priest,with the authority of the Church in God's name.

Catholics will often ask a priest to bless (in God's name with the authority of the Church),a person or an object .

Generally or at least quite often ,the blessing given in a Presbyterian church will be the Aaronic blessing.
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
I’m sorry to say you appear to be caricaturing catholic practice. How can it be the priest’s blessing, when the actual words are “May the blessing of Almighty God”?
 
Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
How can it be the priest’s blessing, when the actual words are “May the blessing of Almighty God”?
I think you've just named the mystery of priesthood with that question.

The liturgy also asks me to ask for, rather regularly now, "Your blessing, Father," before proclaiming the Gospel.
 


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