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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Clashing of symbols
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I'd much prefer it if it were cymbals. At least they are designed to clash.
I presided this morning at the eucharist for another parish in vacancy. The congregation (small and elderly, as usual) was very friendly and welcoming; there was a small choir and good organist; the liturgy was standard Common Worship. There was so much right with it and its rootedness in its inner-suburban setting. But the church looked like a junk shop!
I don't know if the previous vicar had no visual awareness whatsoever or he met resistance from the congregation to any tidying up. Just some of the most glaring examples of naffness:
[1] There was a nave altar, which I know in itself is enough to give some Ecclesianticals paroxysms, but it is a vast church and the high altar would be very remote, so I don't object to the principle. It was standing in a large cleared area at the front of the nave so there was no need for any clutter. However, mustard-yellow carpet had been laid in place of the first few rows of pews, with a gap in the middle, so that the altar straddled this gap, looking extremely temporary and makeshift. There were some portable altar rails arranged (too close) around three sides, which were not pretty but small enough to have been inconspicuous were it not for the rows of embroidered kneelers in clashing designs and colours, which drew attention away from the altar.
[2] There were four inoffensive wooden candlesticks on the altar but then a completely unnecessary pair of standard candlesticks, standing within ten centimetres of the altar's edges rather than in their own space well apart.
[3] There was a lectern (used for the first scripture reading - there was no OT lesson - and the prayers, but not for the gospel which I read from the middle of the nave) standing, not proudly and prominently in its own space but tucked away apologetically to one side. Then there was another redundant lectern/ambo attached to the (open and waist high) choir screen, with a green fall over it.
[4] There was a strange small 'altar' at the end of the north aisle, surrounded with various clutter. I put 'altar' in quotes because it seemed too small and fragile to be ever used for a eucharist. A metal cross stood on it with a wooden crucifix hanging immediately behind it.
[5] There was a small votive stand to one side of it. It was obviously used by people as candles were burning there, but to reach it they would have to negotiate an obstacle course.
[6] The altar and seating in the lady chapel had been turned round 90degrees. Nothing wrong with that, except that the curtain which had obviously acted as a reredos was now on one side, and a crucifix which presumably had hung above the altar was now dangling pointlessly in nobody's sightline.
[7] There were café-style tables set out along the south aisle, used by the congregation at coffee-time and also I was informed by a weekday luncheon club. A good idea, but I would have thought it needed little ingenuity to find a more appropriate place for them.
[8] Piles of books, papers, general impedimenta everywhere.
[9] The locally produced liturgy booklets and the folder on the altar replacing a printed missal, desperately needed the attention of a skilled graphic artist (or even someone like me with half an eye for design and presentation). Boring sans-serif font (fortunately though not Comic Sans - I've seen that in this context before) with badly thought out line breaks and littered with poor clip-art.
Though as I have said, it was a welcoming congregation and there was a good atmosphere (they appeared attentive to the sermon, a good test). They obviously don't have much money and the building needs attention beyond their current resources. But tidiness and presenting a coherent image doesn't cost much money. The other extreme is a church like the V & A, with everything in metaphorical display cabinets. I'd hate that too.
My first couple of weeks if I had been vicar of that place would be spent clearing out the clutter and letting the building do half the work of proclaiming the gospel. Is that an experience that resonates with anyone else, or is it just that I am a liturgical (architectural/graphic etc) obsessive? Is there is difference between the clergy and lay perceptions of these things (or between the Ecclesiantical and ordinary Christian)?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
Yikes. That does sound pretty bad, but fortunately nothing that a good tidy couldn't solve. It sounds like just a bit or re-arranging is all that's needed. Except for the mustard-yellow carpet. There's no excuse for that. Ever. (That's not just a principle for churches, btw, think of it a divinely ordained imperative for better living).
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I They obviously don't have much money and the building needs attention beyond their current resources. But tidiness and presenting a coherent image doesn't cost much money. The other extreme is a church like the V & A, with everything in metaphorical display cabinets. I'd hate that too.
I think you're right, but do you have any churches in mind when you talk about 'a church like the V & A' (I may be bit sensitive on this point as one of my previous parishes actually used to occasionally lend stuff to the V&A, although at least one item was unceremoniously returned after a new curator realized — quite rightly — that it was hideous).
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
Except for the mustard-yellow carpet. There's no excuse for that. Ever. (That's not just a principle for churches, btw, think of it a divinely ordained imperative for better living).
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) You've just confirmed my intuition that the S in your name stands for Saint. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
quote:
I think you're right, but do you have any churches in mind when you talk about 'a church like the V & A'
Not specifically. There is one church I know, listed building with many glistening artefacts, which could be like that, but it is used.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Perhaps you could suggest to this admirable congregation that they should employ the services of myself, another member of our church, and one of our noble Churchwardens. All three of us have OCD, so we have the tidiest church in the Diocese......I kid you not! Our rates are modest, and I will let you have the number of our bank account in the Cayman Islands when payment is made.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I put 'altar' in quotes because it seemed too small and fragile to be ever used for a eucharist.
Do altars have to be substantial?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Crucifer
Shipmate
# 523
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I put 'altar' in quotes because it seemed too small and fragile to be ever used for a eucharist.
Do altars have to be substantial?
I would say that they should be, but don't have to be, i.e. if nothing better is available, then make do with what there is. I doubt that this applies in the above situation, though.
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Crucifer
Posts: 232 | From: Diocese of Rupert's Land, Canada | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I guess any table - even a humble card table - would do at a pinch, but you surely do need (a) room for the sacred vessels and at least one candle, and also (b) some assurance that the weight of the said vessels is not going to cause the table to collapse in a humpled creep!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I guess any table - even a humble card table - would do at a pinch, but you surely do need (a) room for the sacred vessels and at least one candle, and also (b) some assurance that the weight of the said vessels is not going to cause the table to collapse in a humpled creep!
Ian J.
I often use that example myself. We can celebrate the Eucharist on a card table using Dixie cups and paper plates if that's all that's available. The Sacrament doesn't depend on fancy furniture and vessels.
However, symbols do matter, and celebrating on a flimsy table if you don't have to implies the wrong thing about the Sacrament. Same goes for lecterns and ambos. It's also a good argument for using a lectionary and/or Gospel book rather than print-outs. What non-verbal cues are we giving if the Gospel is something we toss in a recycle bin or trash can when we're through with it? (Should we ever be through with it?)
That's why I think even well-meaning changes in church have to be done carefully - and I think Angloid's instincts are right. There can be really good reasons for setting up a nave altar, but it shouldn't look like a cheap replacement of the high altar that's built architecturally into the building itself.
To my mind, inattention to such things sends a message that we devalue the material and only care about ideas, that what we touch and taste and see aren't as important as what we hear and think. Rather anti-incarnational.
That said, sometimes a church may lack resources, and as long as they're doing their best, I wouldn't judge.
It's true that a little tidying up would make a huge difference in a church like the OP describes, but it also takes a lot of time and coordination of volunteers if there isn't money to hire someone. All those things are in short supply these days in most churches, I think. But part of that is priorities, I guess. If the church building is just a place you meet in on Sundays to hear the Word and share Communion, tidying up might be low on the list of priorities. I wish we would all be more aware of how much the visual and spatial aspects of our buildings inform us through our senses. Like Angloid says, the building also proclaims the Gospel!
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
I sometimes look around the web at photos of church interiors. The ones that annoy me are ones where the church building is of the type meant to pull one's eyes and spirit upward but the sanctuary (chancel, quire, whatever) is full of low clutter: various chairs, a flimsy altar, a drum set, other tables of stuff here and there. It looks like those responsible for worship are unimpressed or bored by the architecture and want everything to be homey and at immediate eye level. Or just haven't noticed all the stuff that has accumulated.
Another thing that bothers me and I'm not sure why: Gothic churches in which furniture has been put on a slant. The standard choir stalls configuration with eastward altar perpendicular to that seems right; turning a set of sedilia to face the people on a slant (or directly) seems at odds with such architecture. And I think it helpful to humility to have the clergy sitting sideways like the choir and not subjecting us to their forced smiles that they find necessary when facing us.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
We have an annual Spring clean and de-clutter.
In between annual cleans the wardens and sidesmen are responsible for ensuring that clutter isn't allowed to settle: out-of-date orders of service are put into the recycling bin; lost property is kept in one place, having been logged and dated, and unclaimed items are sold at the next fete or fair; etc, etc.
Why do people put up with clutter in a church they wouldn't countenance at home? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Why do people put up with clutter in a church they wouldn't countenance at home?
In case I come under criticism from the MU, Joe Bloggs or Jane Bloggs, etc. etc.
Also a complete lack of space... I constantly have to wage a war on the trash that the 'worship' group leaves in the Lady Chapel (which is fairly large as these things go) trying to at least tidy it up into the smallest possible pile in a corner...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
We have an annual Spring clean and de-clutter.
In between annual cleans the wardens and sidesmen are responsible for ensuring that clutter isn't allowed to settle: out-of-date orders of service are put into the recycling bin; lost property is kept in one place, having been logged and dated, and unclaimed items are sold at the next fete or fair; etc, etc.
Why do people put up with clutter in a church they wouldn't countenance at home?
I'd say you're making some rather big assumptions about what people's homes are like! Not everyone likes to be minimalist about such things...
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Keeping things tidy doesn't mean being minimalist!
Case in point: the place for past issues of the parish magazine is in a file, not a glory-hole at the back of church. Quite apart from anything else, a well-organised and up-to-date archive can be valuable.
As for Sergius M having to wage war on trash - is there a litter bin in church? If so, make sure it is pointed out to people and emptied regularly.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
Sorry, but it seems to me that you looked and saw things rather than the people in the church. Surely what is important is the hearts and faith of the congregation as anything else is window dressing. I recall someone complaining about a lady whose house was a mess when hers was pristine. However, the messy lady had happy and much loved children while the other lady had an unhappy marriage and troublesome kids. It is a matter of priorities.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
There was so much right with it and its rootedness in its inner-suburban setting. But the church looked like a junk shop!
[1] embroidered kneelers in clashing designs and colours
[5] There was a small votive stand to one side of it. It was obviously used
[7] There were café-style tables set out along the south aisle, used
[8] Piles of books, papers
[9] The locally produced liturgy booklets desperately needed the attention of a skilled graphic artist
it was a welcoming congregation and there was a good atmosphere
Sounds like a wonderful happy involved doing congregation. I love the jumble of embroidered kneelers, people made them specifically for that church - not some plastic commercial trite purchased thing. The votive stand is actively used! The tables are actively used! The piles of books and papers indicate they are used! What a privilege to be invited to that church for a Sunday!
(I wouldn't criticize the volunteer doing the booklets - the choice is probably her or no one. In my church people are criticizing the lead musician for not being very good, which he admits, but it's really discouraging him. He's the only one who volunteered to lead! We get his music or none, that's the choice. Sure, professional quality would be great, but that's not a real option for most of us in most aspects of church.)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
The church space is not the domestic area of a tightly knit group. Our worship (ie the whole service) is not confirming a clique, but putting us in contact with an action of universal or cosmic significance which any Christian or seeker can take part.
One of the nicest things on this board for me was an exchange of pm’s with someone from a totally different background to me in New Frontiers. Surprisingly we agreed that worship should be both immanent and transcendent. Angloid’s church (and he never, kind man that he is, criticised the faith or sincerity of the congregation) seems to have totally overlooked the transcendent possibility.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Sorry, but it seems to me that you looked and saw things rather than the people in the church. Surely what is important is the hearts and faith of the congregation as anything else is window dressing. I recall someone complaining about a lady whose house was a mess when hers was pristine. However, the messy lady had happy and much loved children while the other lady had an unhappy marriage and troublesome kids. It is a matter of priorities.
What of quote:
The congregation (small and elderly, as usual) was very friendly and welcoming; there was a small choir and good organist; the liturgy was standard Common Worship. There was so much right with it and its rootedness in its inner-suburban setting.
and
quote:
Though as I have said, it was a welcoming congregation and there was a good atmosphere (they appeared attentive to the sermon, a good test). They obviously don't have much money and the building needs attention beyond their current resources.
?
It's easy to fall into the trap of looking at appearances and not people. Angloid clearly has not done that.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
OK, let’s try a homely analogy.
If the church is in part about mission, a more appropriate analogy for the church building interior is a shop, not a living room, somewhere strangers can enter of their own free choice without invitation.
Imagine a shop with tatty and ill matching decorations, and a smeary front window. The notice outside gives the name of the previous business on the site. The goods are not arranged on any consistent basis, and some on blatantly temporary trestle tables. There is no indication where to find particular products. Nobody is in sight to take payment or give advice. When you do find someone, sweetly fluffy though they may be, they don’t know how to take credit card payment.
A shop should surely want to encourage any potential customer : be attractive enough to encourage the customer to browse and return in future, and to find what they are interested in. Obviously the quality and nature of the goods on offer make the final difference, but the nature of the display is important and gives a significant message.
I’d suggest angloid’s church is the liturgical equivalent of the tatty shop I caricatured.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Thanks, especially to venbede and og, for acknowledging that I did see much that was right with that church and people. I admit that (as a 'liturgical professional' as well as an architecture enthusiast) I tend to get a bit obsessive about details that many people would not notice or would not see as important.
venbede's analogy of a shop is spot on. Without wishing to score ecclesiastical party points, I often wonder why so many evangelicals seem indifferent to church buildings and furnishings when they can often be very valuable tools of evangelism. Though maybe, with many churches being locked outside services, they are not much use for that purpose as the only people who see them are the committed church members.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
As for Sergius M having to wage war on trash - is there a litter bin in church? If so, make sure it is pointed out to people and emptied regularly.
They may get upset if I started throwing music stands and microphones in the bin! I didn't mean recyclables, I already throw those away!, I meant trash as other things that have no place being stored in a place that they would be better not stored!
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
About the service booklets:
I don't know why the standard of typography and graphic design is so poor in so many churches. I'll keep it simple: unless you're very sure of yourself, use only Garamond. Print it in size twelve. Congregational responses in bold. Don't neglect white space.
Do the same thing of the web page, but consider using Helvetica or another sans-serif.
Any idiot can do that, and the average 14 year old would do it without thinking, but we had people in our church putting things out in either Times New Roman ( ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) ) or even, on in particularly memorable incident Comic Sans ( ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif) ). Fortunately the new vicar has some modicum of common sense in this regard.
My only objection about our service booklets is that they look cheap. There's a reason for this: They are cheap. They're printed out on standard copier paper. I'm really envious of the large, prestigious church in the town centre with its professionally printed service booklets on heavy paper. If it were up to me, every parish would have its own letterpress.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
About the service booklets:
I don't know why the standard of typography and graphic design is so poor in so many churches. I'll keep it simple: unless you're very sure of yourself, use only Garamond. Print it in size twelve. Congregational responses in bold. Don't neglect white space.
Because they don't want to spend 1p+P&P on a second-hand copy of this book.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Our service booklet is due for a reprint soon, with some much-needed alterations/improvements, and, given our resources, we will do as good a job as we can. At the moment, I seem to be responsible for producing weekly bulletin, notices, and occasional extra service or hymn sheets for special occasions. I use Word, and the default type face is Calibri. I always employ this for church purposes, so we now have a sort of 'house style' which IMHO is clear and legible. For one-off posters displayed in our local community centre or supermarket, I often use a more arty-crafty type face (e.g. Kristen, MV Boli) to catch the passing eye!
What venbede and others have said about a church being a shop window. If you do have your church open and in use during the week, and not just on Sundays, it's good stewardship in all respects, surely, to keep it looking neat and welcoming.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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gog
Shipmate
# 15615
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I presided this morning at the eucharist for another parish in vacancy...
I don't know if the previous vicar had no visual awareness whatsoever or he met resistance from the congregation to any tidying up.
One question I'd ask is how long the vacancy has been going on. Having had a tidy up at one church under my care recently (no vacancy been there, but not had that much attention in the past) there was all sorts of stuff that had accumulated. Might it have any relation to the length of vacancy?
Posts: 103 | From: somewhere over the border | Registered: Apr 2010
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I fear to say this, and hope no-one can 'out' this church from my descriptions, but I remember visiting it a few years ago during the last vacancy. It was much the same. So it looks very much as if the last vicar either lacked the courage to do anything about it or just was visually unaware. (The problem is not so much clutter in the sense of junk, but inappropriate use and placement of furniture and other artefacts0
[ 17. September 2013, 13:38: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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OddJob
Shipmate
# 17591
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Posted
Wouldn't it be good if we could go back 25 years to an era when nobody seemed to worry about - or even to perceive - such issues? When poor coffee or orange cordial in a range of non-matching cups were seen as a hospitable accompaniment to a nosey at the hand-written notices on the pin-board.
Unfortunately we can't sensibly ignore 'Standards Inflation'.
Posts: 97 | From: West Midlands | Registered: Mar 2013
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Francis of Assisi had as much contempt for personal appearances as anyone.
He was so concerned that churches should look worthy of the worship of God, that if he found one dirty, he would take a broom and clean it out himself.
Treating God's house with care and attention should be good practice at treating our neighbours with equal love.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827
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Posted
Of course it makes it harder to keep a church building a) tidy and b) true to its primary purposes when with the best will in the world people of the parish - not just the congregation - who want to rid themselves of something but don't want to throw it away "gift" it to the church. ONLY PEOPLE CAN BE GIFTED!
Now I have a policy that whenever something is offered the church Board has to agree, and they may not agree to accept a thing that they can't say both when it will be useful and were it will be kept ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Which means it should all always look great,yes? But that would mean we live in a perfect world.
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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
Posts: 176 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cathscats:
Now I have a policy that whenever something is offered the church Board has to agree, and they may not agree to accept a thing that they can't say both when it will be useful and were it will be kept
Museums and libraries usually state clearly that they do not guarantee to keep any donated item permanently. (Lest any confuse the museum or library with their own extended storage.)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
I have been pleasantly surprised on a number of occasions about the cheerfulness of the congregation when someone simply sets to and does something. Very often, they are simply waiting for permission to throw something out, and in a vacancy, no-one will feel they have the authority.
My vicar and I spent a happy afternoon clearing ancient diocesan reports, obsolete service books, ancient dried flower arrangements and all the rest from the vestry in one of our churches. A few weeks later, the churchwarden said vaguely, 'Has someone had a tidy-up?' We simply said 'yup' and he said 'great, about time.'
In another church because it was in the nave and not the vestry, we went a bit more softly-softly, moving old Mothers' Union banners to one side until it was possible to evict them altogether, and simply putting up shelves in the foyer so that books, papers etc finally had a home. Everyone either said 'what a good idea' or similar.
When something belongs to everyone, like a church, there can be considerable atrophy in stepping up to do something about appearances. But very often, it's welcomed. And these days, presentation standards are high, both in the buildings, and in what we produce on paper. We have to keep up, and look professional.
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Just so - and such has been the general reaction to my...er... our latest bout of clearing-up.....
...and, once you've got things neat and tidy, it should (in theory) be easier to keep them so (until after one's own funeral Mass, of course)!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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