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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Applauding in church
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Frankly, I can't imagine God having any objection to people clapping in appreciation of a good anthem etc. during a worship service. Now stodgy humans objecting, that's believeable.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
Psalm 47 seems to give full biblical authority for applause during worship:
O clap your hands all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.
On the other hand, readers of the Signs and Blunders page will understand why it is not a good idea to talk about giving people "a clap", or even worse, "the clap".
That's clapping God. Not clapping a performance. (Why should the children's choir be clapped and not the others? Isn't that just patronising? Aren't there other ways of being supportive?)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
We applaud the children, for their artwork displayed after Sunday School or for a song they sang. We applaud at the end of the service, bride and groom leaving, new choir formed, new rector after installation and such.
I was once in a cathedral for a children's day and the Bishop asked all the children to turn around and look at the window dedicated to Creation and applaud God for what God had done. That worked for me as 150 little hands clapped and several young voices shouted. "Hurrah for God. " As a guest preacher I have been applauded. ??????? Not sure if that was their usual custom. Felt very uncomfortable. I have a real problem with applause during the service as it is most always directed toward a person and is not worship of God.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Quite. And we can explain that to children and other people who might otherwise expect to be applauded.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
I have a real problem with applause during the service as it is most always directed toward a person and is not worship of God.
Bingo.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Albertus, Mousethief ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
What really bugs me is not just applauding "because they're children" (so why no applause for the enterprising AND YOUNG squirrel that appeared in the pulpit ledge a couple of years ago?) but applauding even when the Sunday School singing is, frankly, so bad as to be embarrassing ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) .
As for clapping at weddings: WHY? The couple haven't done anything particularly brilliant, just repeated some words. But DO applaud them 25 years later when they come to church still married perhaps.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Quite. And we can explain that to children and other people who might otherwise expect to be applauded.
So have you ever tried explaining this to children, especially those whose hold on the church is tenuous?
Or to non-churchgoers attending a baptism or wedding?
or to regular churchgoers at an ordination?> (It's actually written into our services for the making of deacons and ordinations of priests 'the congregation shall now applaud' or some such.
Can't remember what happens at the consecration of a bishop since it's over 20 years since i last attended one.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I don't clap at concerts. Why should I do so in church?
I do clap at concerts. That's why I don't in church.
I wonder if Zen Buddhist congregations clap with one hand?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
leo -
There is a total difference between the congregation participating in the liturgy by clapping, typically with ordinations, baptisms, weddings, or in certain songs ("let the trees of the earth all clap their hands (clap) clap their hands..) ie liturgical participation
and applauding a performer of whatever age because they've done a nice turn, ie being a passive audience.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I did attend an ordination in which the bishop, after the laying on of hands says to the congregation "Let us give them a spontaneous round of applause".
Plonker. If you've told us to do it, it is no longer spontaneous. If he'd just begun clapping and we'd joined in (and I was very happy to do so) it would have been spontaneous. Man with no style.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Quite. And we can explain that to children and other people who might otherwise expect to be applauded.
So have you ever tried explaining this to children, especially those whose hold on the church is tenuous?
Or to non-churchgoers attending a baptism or wedding?
or to regular churchgoers at an ordination?> (It's actually written into our services for the making of deacons and ordinations of priests 'the congregation shall now applaud' or some such.
Can't remember what happens at the consecration of a bishop since it's over 20 years since i last attended one.
Well maybe explaining the point to children would be a way of making their hold on the church less tenuous- and indeed of making the point that in church they are not going to be patronised but that their contribution is going to be taken seriously and valued as much as any adult's.
Applauding at a wedding, ordination, or baptism is IME not at all the same thing as applauding the choir or a piece of liturgical drama or whatever. Applause to welcome a new member of the Church by baptism, or to congratulate an ordinand or a married couple on the step that they have just taken, is perfectly in order and I join in enthusiastically when we do it. There, it is entirely appropriately directed towards the people that you are applauding, as an expression of joy and love and support.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Quite. And we can explain that to children and other people who might otherwise expect to be applauded.
So have you ever tried explaining this to children, especially those whose hold on the church is tenuous?
You are seriously proposing that there are children whose decision to remain in church rests on whether or not they get applauded by the congregation. Good arfing grief.
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Plonker. If you've told us to do it, it is no longer spontaneous. If he'd just begun clapping and we'd joined in (and I was very happy to do so) it would have been spontaneous. Man with no style.
Or no dictionary.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You are seriously proposing that there are children whose decision to remain in church rests on whether or not they get applauded by the congregation. Good arfing grief.
The link that keeps British children in mainstream churches is tenuous. Barring the churches in affluent areas, or churches that offer access to 'good schools', most churches will have very few children, and those who do come will be thinking of dropping out by the age of ten or eleven. So I can well understand that failing to acknowledge the children's contributions in some obvious way would be considered a bad move in many congregations.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You are seriously proposing that there are children whose decision to remain in church rests on whether or not they get applauded by the congregation. Good arfing grief.
The link that keeps British children in mainstream churches is tenuous. Barring the churches in affluent areas, or churches that offer access to 'good schools', most churches will have very few children, and those who do come will be thinking of dropping out by the age of ten or eleven. So I can well understand that failing to acknowledge the children's contributions in some obvious way would be considered a bad move in many congregations.
And the only obvious way that would do the trick is applause? Because that's what Leo is putting forward.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
On the other hand, readers of the Signs and Blunders page will understand why it is not a good idea to talk about giving people "a clap", or even worse, "the clap".
Well, with all those "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs going around, it's bound to happen sooner or later.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
mousethief
The point is that churches are fearful of putting people off. Telling the children and their parents and/or grandparents that clapping was no longer allowed might be taken as a snub. The church leadership would be accused of being spoilsports....
What happens at your church when the kids do something?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
mousethief
The point is that churches are fearful of putting people off. Telling the children and their parents and/or grandparents that clapping was no longer allowed might be taken as a snub. The church leadership would be accused of being spoilsports....
What happens at your church when the kids do something?
We don't have entertainment in the main church. If the kids do something, it's in some other room, probably the fellowship hall, and then they can be applauded.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
In most of the churches I know, the children spend most of the service in another room participating in their own activities. Before the end of the service they return to the main worship hall to share what they've been doing with the adults. This sharing isn't necessarily seen as 'entertainment'. It might simply involve the preacher asking the children questions about the Bible stories they've been reading. The children might hold up their drawings. They might sing a new song they've been practising, but that doesn't happen every week.
In these churches applauding the children serves as encouragement rather than anything else. But each denomination no doubt has its own way of making the children feel involved.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
But does it make them feel involved? Very young kids, perhaps. But what about the slightly older ones? I can remember starting to be very sensitive to possible patronage from the age of about 10 or 11. I absolutely hated any feeling of 'aah, haven't you done well?' Better, I think, to start to get kids involved as soon as possible in a way that lets them know that they are not only valued but taken as seriously as anybody else.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
In Orthodoxy, children worship with us. The little ones crawl around on the floor, run around at times, spend time being held by various "aunts" and "uncles." But they worship with us because worship is something for all the people of God, not just the grown-ups. We also commune infants from the time of their baptism. Slightly older ones can serve in the altar or be assigned duties during worship. (Five year olds going around snuffing out candles that have burned too low is delightful to see.)
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But does it make them feel involved? Very young kids, perhaps. But what about the slightly older ones? I can remember starting to be very sensitive to possible patronage from the age of about 10 or 11. I absolutely hated any feeling of 'aah, haven't you done well?' Better, I think, to start to get kids involved as soon as possible in a way that lets them know that they are not only valued but taken as seriously as anybody else.
Certainly, churches that have better ways of involving the children should stick with what they have. But for the average MOTR church, what would not applauding the kids achieve?
mousethief
It sounds as though the Orthodox Church is less restrained than this conversation might suggest; if little kids are allowed to toddle about and wriggle and chatter in their parents' arms then there's clearly a more relaxed atmosphere than 'absolutely no clapping' would suggest.
I don't know for sure, but in the UK I suspect that most Orthodox churches are ethnic minority churches. This probably makes a difference to the general atmosphere and to the retention of young people. Trying to re-create the same thing in a mainstream Protestant church with a mostly indigenous congregation would be a challenge, to put it mildly.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It sounds as though the Orthodox Church is less restrained than this conversation might suggest; if little kids are allowed to toddle about and wriggle and chatter in their parents' arms then there's clearly a more relaxed atmosphere than 'absolutely no clapping' would suggest.
You appear to have been laboring under a misconception -- that the reason we don't clap in church is because we're uptight. Despite being told repeatedly the real reason. I wonder why that is.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
mousethief
Okay, I've seen the light - you're all a laid-back bunch of people with a respectful attitude towards worship! To be fair, I've only ever attended an Orthodox church service on a visit to Ukraine, and I have no idea what the others are like. The experience in Ukraine was interesting, but very different from what I'm used to.
As I say, each denomination has its traditions, and each congregation exists in a different social and cultural environment. I suppose it makes little sense for us to make blanket statements about what a church should or shouldn't do without bearing all of these things in mind. It'd make more sense to say that everyone should just leave their denomination and circumstances and be part of ours instead!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
In most of the churches I know, the children spend most of the service in another room participating in their own activities. Before the end of the service they return to the main worship hall to share what they've been doing with the adults. This sharing isn't necessarily seen as 'entertainment'. It might simply involve the preacher asking the children questions about the Bible stories they've been reading. The children might hold up their drawings. They might sing a new song they've been practising, but that doesn't happen every week.
In these churches applauding the children serves as encouragement rather than anything else.
Yes - that's largely what we do in my shack. I am somewhat reserved and don't like applauding things but I do so with the rest of the congo. because I want the Church to continue into the future. The culture these children have inherited is very different from the buttoned-up culture in which i grew up.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
On the other hand, readers of the Signs and Blunders page will understand why it is not a good idea to talk about giving people "a clap", or even worse, "the clap".
Well, with all those "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs going around, it's bound to happen sooner or later.
Glad you said that - I have been thinking it all along on this thread but was too reserved to admit it.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You are seriously proposing that there are children whose decision to remain in church rests on whether or not they get applauded by the congregation. Good arfing grief.
The link that keeps British children in mainstream churches is tenuous. Barring the churches in affluent areas, or churches that offer access to 'good schools', most churches will have very few children, and those who do come will be thinking of dropping out by the age of ten or eleven. So I can well understand that failing to acknowledge the children's contributions in some obvious way would be considered a bad move in many congregations.
And the only obvious way that would do the trick is applause? Because that's what Leo is putting forward.
Not so much the applause per se but the knowledge that we old folks value their contribution.
In today's culture, applause is the way in which most people show value.
However, it shouldn't stop there, any more than the handshake of peace should stop there and not continue with an attempt to relate to other people over coffee or whatever.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Okay, I've seen the light - you're all a laid-back bunch of people with a respectful attitude towards worship!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In today's culture, applause is the way in which most people show value.
I value lots of things I don't applaud. Mostly if I applaud it is to celebrate a performance, usually of musicians, occasionally a sports team, sometimes the recipient of an award. I don't much anything else. I don't applaud my car if it gets me somewhere. I don't applaud a delicious dinner. I don't applaud my friends if I meet them in the street. I don't applaud if I see a bookshop or a hospital, or a water works.
I certainly don't applaud the Blessed Sacrament, or images of our Lady, or even - in the normal run of things - bishops.
So, no, applause is not the normal way that people show value, except in a handful of particular cases. You might argue that extending these cases to the presence of children in church is a good idea. Fair enough. I've heard worse ideas.
But the idea that applause is a normative manner or showing value in everyday life is false, and quite clearly so.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Positive reinforcement increases the likelihood that someone will repeat an act. Applause is a form of positve reinforcement.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
But not the only one. And it's not positive if it causes embarassment to the person(s) being applauded.
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Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
During yesterday's service, the band was on an unexpected journey, so I picked up the guitar and accompanied the songs. At one point, someone was shouting "B flat! G minor!" in my ear because the chords weren't annotated ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Luckily, I didn't get an applause. I mean, all of us were singing together. I did get a "Thank you" after the service, though.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Positive reinforcement increases the likelihood that someone will repeat an act. Applause is a form of positve reinforcement.
So is giving candy. So is saying, "Thank you." So is a shiny new toy. This doesn't constitute an argument for applause, only an argument for positive reinforcement.
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Wild Organist
Apprentice
# 12631
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Posted
I was once organist at a church where, at the end of the service, those still present applauded. I took it (and said as much to anyone who would listen) that this was for the entire service, just as much as any perceived value in the postlude. However, this did not stop the minister (whose 25-minute sermons were attracting criticism at the churchwardens for their length, amongst other things) putting a note in the weekly sheet for a few weeks, banning applause at the and of the service.
I got moaned at for this, not the priest, but then...
I think I lasted another 12 months at that church before the atmosphere became intolerable.
This is one reason why this organist is wild, free-range and 'organic'.
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Be very careful what you wish for. You might just get it.
Posts: 50 | From: West Sussex | Registered: May 2007
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
We had four rounds of applause at the main service yesterday. The choir director/organist sang two solos, the choir performed an anthem, an our outreach coordinator received sponsorship to attend some courses with Threshold Ministries.
Each time a hearty round of applause was given. Thanks be to God.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
At the church I visited Sunday, the choir sang a lovely hymn, with descants, and I immediately tensed up waiting for the congregational applause that would have no doubt happened in my regular congregation...to my relief, it didn't happen here. There was applause, however, later in the service when two children -- foster kids whose official adoption had become final this past week, whose story was something the congregation had been prayerfully following since their adoptive mom had begun fostering them -- were baptized and presented to the congregation. That applause I didn't mind one bit.
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http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Sunday morning
The choir sang beautifully, including a complicated verse anthem = no applause.
Sunday School children walked up aisle carrying various items as adult was reading out script concerning symbolism of harvest = rapturous applause.
Sunday evening
Choir again on good form, I finished off service with big recital piece = nothing.
Local school children sang to recorded music, all cluthing pieces of paper, lots of off-key growling = applause and cheering.
Am I missing something here? I thought applause was to do with being a reward for an accomplishment, not just for standing up (or walking in a straight line).
[ 08. October 2013, 11:11: Message edited by: L'organist ]
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
People like to see kids participating, making a bit of an effort. It's cute.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It may be patronising to applaud children, but that's what they expect and they will feel that church is unwelcoming if we don't.
And if we explain to them that it isn't usual to clap in church, they'll just see us as being mean.
Hardly, if we also explain to them why it isn't usual to clap in church.
I remember one choir director's frustration when a congregation applauded for the children's choir—"I've spent weeks teaching them what worship is about and why they shouldn't expect applause . . . ."
That said, it's all a matter of what applause means within a given culture. Applause in a congregation of the frozen chosen has a different meaning from applause in a typical African-American congregation, for instance.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Quite. And we can explain that to children and other people who might otherwise expect to be applauded.
So have you ever tried explaining this to children, especially those whose hold on the church is tenuous?
Yes. They had no problem at all understanding it.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It may be patronising to applaud children, but that's what they expect and they will feel that church is unwelcoming if we don't.
And if we explain to them that it isn't usual to clap in church, they'll just see us as being mean.
If your church's children are particularly thick, perhaps.
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
Leo, that's not so.
Our younger teens did a dramatic presentation of the Passion Story. They exited straight down the centre aisle in total silence. They were thoroughly impressed with themselves as they realized they had offered something that was truly worship. They had passed from "delighting" the adults and actually moved into leading them in a deeper form of worship. These were their reflections not mine. I delighted in their awe at how the congregation had received them.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
We had four rounds of applause at the main service yesterday. The choir director/organist sang two solos, the choir performed an anthem, an our outreach coordinator received sponsorship to attend some courses with Threshold Ministries.
Each time a hearty round of applause was given. Thanks be to God.
What I see wrong with most of that, Caissa, is that it is applauding someone's act of worship. Do you applaud the celebrant for getting though the eucharistic prayer without a hiccup? But the applause for the co-ordinator receiving sponsorship is, for me, appropriate.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
I'm with Gee D on this one.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Caissa
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# 16710
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Posted
Well, the congregation saw nothing wrong with applauding people for using their God given talents in praise of God.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Now that's an interesting idea (seriously): applauding, rather than ringing the bell, at the consecration. Not sure I'd feel comfortable with it but I could see it might make sense in a way.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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